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Kevin Bonham
19-07-2017, 07:57 PM
Queensland energy minister Mark Bailey to stand aside for corruption investigation of use and deletion of private emails.

Kevin Bonham
02-10-2017, 12:33 AM
In case anyone is confused about why the Queensland government is winning some polls and losing others, it is mostly down to different preferencing models:

http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2017/10/divergence-in-queensland-polls-is.html

ER
29-10-2017, 11:59 AM
QLD goes to the polls!

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/state-election-2017/queensland-election-2017-mp-dramas-trigger-early-poll/news-story/83dd2dc932160d4cc94e90b42bef2150

I won't be confused at all if Pauline's One Nation becomes a major political force (decidedly
holding the balance of power) as a result of a combined Federal and State LNP, laborite and greenie stupidity!




However the spectre of the Pauline Hanson-led One Nation will loom large throughout the 28-day campaign, with the right-wing political outfit polling 16 per cent statewide.
Internal party polling leaked earlier this month showed that vote was as high as 30 per cent in some regional electorates.
The introduction of compulsory preferential voting in a state election for the first time since 1992 has thrown a wildcard into the outcome, with significant numbers of One Nation supporters likely to choose the LNP ahead of Labor.

Ian Murray
20-11-2017, 08:17 AM
Returning a majority Labor government on Saturday will stop this mayhem. An LNP government will carry on regardless.

Australia is a global top-ten deforester – and Queensland is leading the way (https://theconversation.com/australia-is-a-global-top-ten-deforester-and-queensland-is-leading-the-way-87259?)
The Conversation
17.11.17

When you think of devastating deforestation and extinction you usually think of the Amazon, Borneo and the Congo. But eastern Australia ranks alongside these in the top 10 of the world’s major deforestation fronts – the only one in a developed nation. Most of the clearing is happening in Queensland, and it is accelerating.

Only last year a group of leading ecologists voiced their alarm at new data which showed the clearing of 296,000 hectares of forest in 2013-14. This was three times higher than in 2008-09, kicking Australia up the list as one of the world’s forest-clearing pariahs. At the 2016 Society for Conservation Biology Conference, a Scientists’ Declaration was signed by hundreds of scientists, expressing concern at these clearing rates....

Strong vegetation management laws enacted in Queensland – the Vegetation Management Act 1999 – achieved dramatic reductions in forest and woodland loss. But the subsequent Liberal National state government, elected in 2012, overturned these protections.

The current government, elected in 2015, has tried and failed to reinstate the protections. In response, “panic clearing” caused clearing rates to shoot up, in anticipation that the state election will deliver a government that will reintroduce the much-needed protection of forests.

The Queensland Parliament is now in caretaker mode ahead of the November 25 election. The Queensland Labor Party has pledged to reinstate laws to prevent wholesale clearing, while the LNP opposition has vowed to retain current clearing rates.

Capablanca-Fan
21-11-2017, 01:38 AM
Returning a majority Labor government on Saturday will stop this mayhem. An LNP government will carry on regardless.
↑↑ A true believer in Labor. More objective people will wonder: this mayhem is happening under Labor, but we should vote for them to stop what happened on their watch?

Patrick Byrom
21-11-2017, 02:07 AM
↑↑ A true believer in Labor. More objective people will wonder: this mayhem is happening under Labor, but we should vote for them to stop what happened on their watch?Or we should give them a clear majority so they can stop it.

Ian Murray
21-11-2017, 07:36 AM
↑↑ A true believer in Labor. More objective people will wonder: this mayhem is happening under Labor, but we should vote for them to stop what happened on their watch?

In real life, Labor tried to reinstate the Vegetation Management Act, enacted by Labor but repealed by Campbell Newman's LNP government, but didn't have the numbers in the last parliament to get it passed. With a new majority, it will be restored.

Kevin Bonham
21-11-2017, 06:33 PM
In real life, Labor tried to reinstate the Vegetation Management Act, enacted by Labor but repealed by Campbell Newman's LNP government, but didn't have the numbers in the last parliament to get it passed. With a new majority, it will be restored.

Indeed; Katters Australian Party held the balance of power in this parliament and if they were given their way they would probably make land clearing compulsory.

Land clearing in Queensland has long been a serious issue.

ER
22-11-2017, 03:09 AM
I can see no poll.

My (almost)* final predictions for the November, 25 QLD election outcome in % points
No prediction for preferences / seats outcome.
Margin of error +- 1.5%

Labor 34%
LNP 35%
One Nation 21%
Greens 8 %
Katter 2%

* I might make some minor adjustments no later than November, 24, 10:00 PM

Ian Murray
22-11-2017, 06:47 AM
I can see no poll.

My (almost)* final predictions for the November, 25 QLD election outcome in % points
No prediction for preferences / seats outcome.
Margin of error +- 1.5%

Labor 34%
LNP 35%
One Nation 21%
Greens 8 %
Katter 2%

* I might make some minor adjustments no later than November, 24, 10:00 PM

You're a bit short on credibility after your SSM pleburvey prediction.

Desmond
22-11-2017, 07:58 AM
You're a bit short on credibility after your SSM pleburvey prediction.

Maybe it's meant to be +- 15%

Capablanca-Fan
22-11-2017, 04:47 PM
You're a bit short on credibility after your SSM pleburvey prediction.

He is long on credibility after being the only one to predict the last American presidential election.

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2017, 08:28 PM
There is one issue with Elliott's figures above - they add to 100. There are other candidates, a few of whom will score realistic votes. Indeed perennial child abuse hysteric Hetty Johnston is at $2.25 on one exchange. Others excluding KAP is running at about 4 points in polls on average.

ER
22-11-2017, 11:55 PM
There is one issue with Elliott's figures above - they add to 100. There are other candidates, a few of whom will score realistic votes. Indeed perennial child abuse hysteric Hetty Johnston is at $2.25 on one exchange. Others excluding KAP is running at about 4 points in polls on average.

Thanks, now that you mentioned it I will add "others" in my minor adjustment.

ER
23-11-2017, 08:38 AM
I can see no poll.

My (almost)* final predictions for the November, 25 QLD election outcome in % points
No prediction for preferences / seats outcome.
Margin of error +- 1.5%

Labor 34%
LNP 35%
One Nation 21%
Greens 8 %
Katter 2%

* I might make some minor adjustments no later than November, 24, 10:00 PM

No adjustments in regards to adding "others". This is final.

Whatever minor changes on and /or before the announced date of November, 24, 10:00 PM will apply to already posted predictions!

ElevatorEscapee
25-11-2017, 08:22 PM
Looks like Labour retains QLD... (As KC would say, "the cheek of the working class"! ;) )

Rincewind
25-11-2017, 09:24 PM
No adjustments in regards to adding "others". This is final.

Whatever minor changes on and /or before the announced date of November, 24, 10:00 PM will apply to already posted predictions!

About a polling miss out on the two major parties and the Greens all in the conservative direction. Over estimated the One Nation vote by a wide margin.

Kevin Bonham
26-11-2017, 12:38 AM
My final aggregate was Labor 35.9 LNP 33.9 One Nation 13.3 Green 9.6 Other 7.3. Currently I have all parties within a point, but really the skill here is not mine but Galaxy's, since I weighted Galaxy and Newspoll heavily in my final aggregate.

Labor are coming up a bit short on the seats front given that result - I had them on for 51 off the polls but it looks like around 46-49 at the moment with a few rough chances beyond that.

KAP have done extremely well and may gain Hinchinbrook. Indies appear to have won Noosa, possibly Rockhampton and probably not quite Macalister. Both KAP and indies recieved virtually no media attention.

One Nation appear to me to have won only Mirani, not even Lockyer. Hyped to blazes by stupid media.

Greens may have won Maiwar.

Kevin Bonham
26-11-2017, 10:35 AM
Felix Ellis has been announced as the fifth Liberal candidate for Braddon at the Tasmanian state election. At this stage I suspect this is the same Felix Ellis who is a Devonport chess player.

Candidates in Tasmanian elections compete against their own party candidates on a level footing as well as other party candidates - there is not a party ticket order like in the Senate. However given that the Liberals fluked winning four seats in Braddon last election and will certainly lose one and possibly a second, it's more or less impossible for an outsider to dislodge the incumbents in their ticket.

Patrick Byrom
26-11-2017, 06:16 PM
My final aggregate was Labor 35.9 LNP 33.9 One Nation 13.3 Green 9.6 Other 7.3. Currently I have all parties within a point, but really the skill here is not mine but Galaxy's, since I weighted Galaxy and Newspoll heavily in my final aggregate. Labor are coming up a bit short on the seats front given that result - I had them on for 51 off the polls but it looks like around 46-49 at the moment with a few rough chances beyond that.Labor will almost certainly form government though, even if they fall one or two seats short, as they should only need the pro-Labor independent in Rocky, and possibly the Green in Maiwar to have a majority. One Nation achieved nothing except destroying the conservative vote.

Desmond
26-11-2017, 06:35 PM
One Nation achieved nothing except destroying the conservative vote.Why give ONP all the credit, surely Tim Nicholls deserves some too :)

Ian Rout
26-11-2017, 07:21 PM
However given that the Liberals fluked winning four seats in Braddon last election and will certainly lose one and possibly a second, it's more or less impossible for an outsider to dislodge the incumbents in their ticket.On the surface that's true. Three of the sitting Liberals have very high profiles. Jeremy Rockliff is the Deputy Premier. Brooksy has huge ads for himself on walls everywhere. And whenever Mrs Ian and I go to any local event Roger Jaensch is there being seen - you can't miss him as he has his name on both the back of his jacket and the breast pocket.

On the other hand a chess player would be playing a longer game. There must be a good chance of a vacancy coming up during the next term. Jeremy Rockliff may decide that he's reached his career ceiling, especially if he's in opposition, and elect to move on. Or Brooksy's Clintonesque issue (not Monica, the other type) may come to a head.

Anyway there's a clear photo in the Advocate so Denis will be able to confirm if it's the same person.

idledim
27-11-2017, 07:21 AM
Felix Ellis has been announced as the fifth Liberal candidate for Braddon at the Tasmanian state election. At this stage I suspect this is the same Felix Ellis who is a Devonport chess player.

Felix is also an old boy of the Hale School in Perth - which has produced 7 W.A. Premiers. In political terms, it's Perth's Eton! He was also a member of the 2006 & 2007 W.A. Schools Debating team - and the Hale School chess team. He was a member of the Devonport club for a short period in 2015 - but we haven't seen him since he forfeited his last round game in the 2015 Club Championship.

Capablanca-Fan
27-11-2017, 04:04 PM
Never forget the rotten NSW Labor government (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/never-forget-the-rotten-nsw-labor-government/news-story/5762cc086201268fd4ec746fde74ae63)
Miranda Devine, Daily Telegraph, 25 November 2017

BILL Shorten loves having photogenic blondes by his side, gushing over him.

But he doesn’t have a clue about NSW, since his latest “girl”, as he charmingly describes Kristina Keneally, his candidate for the Bennelong by-election, carries political baggage none of us can forget.

The former NSW premier has the hide to condemn the Turnbull government as “awful”, when the Labor government whose clapped-out rear she brought up was a corrupted, rotten joke, thrown out of office in 2011 in the worst political defeat in Australia’s post-war history.

The state by that time had endured 16 downhill years of Labor — more than most people get for murder. We had the highest unemployment rate and lowest economic growth of any state, and rated worst on everything from urban congestion to governance.

You really had to live through those years to understand how bad the NSW government was: a parade of venal misfits and perverts masquerading as ministers of the Crown, an uninterrupted stream of scandals, expensive policy reversals and leadership crises.

Ian Murray
27-11-2017, 05:06 PM
BILL Shorten loves having photogenic blondes by his side, gushing over him....…

Well, I googled 'images Bill Shorten' looking for all the gushing blondes (or brunettes, or redheads), but all I could find were a couple with his wife Chloe, who certainly is a blonde

Ian Murray
16-12-2017, 08:40 PM
Queensland: a final note on preferences (http://insidestory.org.au/queensland-a-final-note-on-preferences/)
Inside Story
14.12.17

One Nation voters in Queensland gave most of their preferences to the Liberal National Party in thirty-seven of the thirty-eight seats where the result came down to a shootout between the LNP and Labor, final election results show.

Preference counts by the Electoral Commission of Queensland decisively torpedo the theory repeatedly advanced by the Australian — without any evidence — that One Nation’s decision to preference against sitting members in most seats cost the LNP the election.

The actual counts show that One Nation voters took little notice of their party’s how-to-vote card, if they ever saw it. But unlike last year’s federal election, when Pauline Hanson’s supporters split their preferences almost evenly between the two major parties, this election saw them consistently prefer the Coalition....

Kevin Bonham
16-12-2017, 08:54 PM
^^^
That article by Colebatch is very good.

Kevin Bonham
28-01-2018, 11:18 AM
Tasmanian state election called for March 3 - for the first time since 2002 it won't clash with SA's.

My main guide page is here: http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2018/01/2018-tasmanian-state-election-guide.html

It has links to my other articles.

The Mercury today had an epic regurgitation of posts from my site that probably only just got under the fair use threshhold, together with quotes from interviews some of which I don't remember saying.

Ian Murray
28-01-2018, 12:29 PM
Tasmanian state election called for March 3 - for the first time since 2002 it won't clash with SA's.

My main guide page is here: http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2018/01/2018-tasmanian-state-election-guide.html

It has links to my other articles.

The Mercury today had an epic regurgitation of posts from my site that probably only just got under the fair use threshhold, together with quotes from interviews some of which I don't remember saying.

The Guardian gives you a mention:
"Tasmanian election analyst Kevin Bonham says polls are predicting swings of between nine and 17% away from the Hodgman Liberal government, which won power from the long-serving Labor government with a 12.2% swing in 2014."
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/28/tasmania-to-go-to-polls-on-3-march?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+AUS+v1+-+AUS+morning+mail+callout&utm_term=262023&subid=7665187&CMP=ema_632

Ian Murray
21-02-2018, 07:00 AM
FactCheck: are ‘around 5,000 jobs’ at risk if pokies are removed from pubs and clubs in Tasmania? (https://theconversation.com/factcheck-are-around-5-000-jobs-at-risk-if-pokies-are-removed-from-pubs-and-clubs-in-tasmania-91149?)
The Conversation
21.2.18

...The claim promoted by the Tasmanian Liberal Party that “around 5,000 jobs are at risk if electronic gaming machines are removed from pubs and clubs” is an exaggeration – and a significant one. ...

Kevin Bonham
21-02-2018, 08:55 AM
The Guardian gives you a mention:
"Tasmanian election analyst Kevin Bonham says polls are predicting swings of between nine and 17% away from the Hodgman Liberal government, which won power from the long-serving Labor government with a 12.2% swing in 2014."
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/28/tasmania-to-go-to-polls-on-3-march?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+AUS+v1+-+AUS+morning+mail+callout&utm_term=262023&subid=7665187&CMP=ema_632

Were predicting, or were "nowcasting" more accurately. There have been no neutral polls here since early December and no one really knows what is going on now but it seems that the Liberals might be doing better than that.

Re the pokies, exaggerating job losses and job gains is a time-honoured Tasmanian political sport. Exaggerating by a power of ten is completely normal here.

MichaelBaron
21-02-2018, 12:12 PM
Re the pokies, exaggerating job losses and job gains is a time-honoured Tasmanian political sport. Exaggerating by a power of ten is completely normal here.

I think the sport is international rather than Tasmanian :).

antichrist
21-02-2018, 12:38 PM
I think the sport is international rather than Tasmanian :).

And unfortunately more than a few chess professionals have lost their chess prize winnings down their hungry throats

idledim
22-02-2018, 02:05 PM
An interesting discussion on the upcoming election in Tasmania on the ABC Nightlife programme, featuring the loquacious Saul (if Trump wins, the U.S. Stockmarket will suffer big losses) Eslake, Kym (bob each way) Goodes and Kevin (born in Queensland) Bonham. Here's the link:

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/nightlife/tasmania/9472272

Ian Rout
03-03-2018, 02:59 PM
Just back from voting in the Tasmanian state election. Here on the NW coast in the seat of Braddon the Liberals have clearly won the poster count, but they always do so that may not mean a lot.

I've seen three posters for Felix Ellis in or on the road to Burnie, compared to about a million for each of the others or five million for Brooksy. Perhaps the plan is for Felix to just bring in votes that they might not normally get, like the West Coast plumbing community and the Devonport Chess Club, and otherwise avoid diluting the vote.

Jacqui Lambie's strategy is very much based on the "ordinary people" approach, which will be a master stoke if it works. She has the drawback that she can't overshadow the real candidates but can't bring Senatorial gravitas to the campaign, and having sacked the party's real Senator can't expect any help from him either.

The Shootin' Fishin' Spittin' Smokin' people have a smattering of signs and I've seen one each for Craig Garland (fishing activist) and Brenton Best (independent) in Wynyard though Brenton's is recycled from the last election, imploring voters to re-elect him.

The Greens have been mysteriously silent. Mrs Ian saw someone she later realised was a candidate at the local market wearing a Greens tee-shirt but that's the extent of their presence. Either they are supremely confident, or they give themselves no chance and are spending their funds elsewhere.

Disappointingly no party has a chess policy, though the chess vote could have been bought for much less than has been promised to some other sports.

If I was betting I would probably go for Brooksy, Rockliff and Jaensch (Lib) and Broad and Dow (Lab), though Rylah (Lib) and Kidd (Lab) have run spirited campaigns and could threaten - Rylah especially, but it may not be a good time to be campaigning on family values.

Kevin Bonham
03-03-2018, 03:55 PM
I'll be on the Mercury website live blogging from about 6:30 tonight. There will be a link on my site once it's live.

Garvinator
03-03-2018, 05:13 PM
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/new-queensland-trains-denied-human-rights-exemption-20180302-p4z2iz.html

New Queensland trains denied Human Rights exemption.

The AHRC in its preliminary decision has denied the Qld Government its application for a temporary exemption from the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA). The Qld Government has two weeks to respond before the AHRC hands down its final decision.

The whole article can be read above, but summary and personal opinion:

In a stunning amount of hubris- After knowing that the NGR's (Next Generation Rollingstock), or more commonly called Not Going Right, was not compliant with the DDA, the Qld Government made an application to the AHRC to get a three year temporary exemption to be able to run the trains, whilst attempting to fix the trains in the mean time.

Then whilst the application was being considered, the Qld Government decided to put the NGR's into paying passenger service, whilst still being fully aware that they were not DDA compliant and did not have a temporary or permanent exemption from the AHRC.

And now the AHRC has handed down its interim decision to deny the temporary exemption and the Qld Government says- we are going to run the trains anyways.

If the AHRC decides to hand down its final decision that the trains will not be granted a temporary exemption, and the Qld Government keeps them in service, then it would mean people with a disability had the right to bring a legal complaint under the Disability Discrimination Act.

And there are already disability organisations, who filed the against cases to the temporary exemption, just waiting to take action should the Qld Government keep running the trains after March 17 or so.

But this issue brings also into focus two other issues:

1) If the Qld Government does decide to keep running the NGR's after the AHRC hands down its final against decision and nothing happens, is there any point having the AHRC? Is it a useless body?

2) Or has the Qld Government just called the AHRC's and disability organisations bluff to get through the Commonwealth Games period?


For those unaware of why the trains are not compliant and wish to know, I can answer in a further post.

antichrist
03-03-2018, 06:42 PM
give the government a break, we presume they are genuinely going to perform the change then get off their back. I am sure there will be personal to help disabled passengers where necessary, especially if for the Games. There will be volunteers everywhere.

Kevin Bonham
06-03-2018, 06:21 PM
13-9-1 with two in doubt at party level in Tasmania. These are Franklin (Liberal vs Green tossup) and Bass (Labor probably better placed against Greens with Liberals a remote chance).

http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2018/03/tasmania-2018-but-what-does-it-all-mean.html

Tasmania 2018: But What Does It All Mean?

Some general reflections on the election.

Ian Rout
07-03-2018, 03:18 PM
http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2018/03/tasmania-2018-but-what-does-it-all-mean.html

Tasmania 2018: But What Does It All Mean?

Some general reflections on the election.
With reference to the last section (about the upper house), is there a provision for a double dissolution or equivalent, or does the government just to have to wait however long it takes for the numbers to turn over?

Kevin Bonham
07-03-2018, 09:21 PM
With reference to the last section (about the upper house), is there a provision for a double dissolution or equivalent, or does the government just to have to wait however long it takes for the numbers to turn over?

There's no provision or equivalent so the government is stuck with it until the numbers change. In theory legislation could be passed to add a provision for a double dissolution, but that legislation would have to be passed through both houses.

Kevin Bonham
15-03-2018, 06:15 PM
The Tasmanian election count is in its final hours and the result is 13 Liberal seats, 10 Labor, 2 Green.

antichrist
15-03-2018, 06:56 PM
The Tasmanian election count is in its final hours and the result is 13 Liberal seats, 10 Labor, 2 Green.

a relief that Greens got 2, what would have happened if Greens and Labor got total 13, would libs still have first chance to form govt as they are major party?

Kevin Bonham
15-03-2018, 07:01 PM
a relief that Greens got 2, what would have happened if Greens and Labor got total 13, would libs still have first chance to form govt as they are major party?

It is up to the Governor to decide who to commission - the most important convention is that if the incumbent government decides it wants to test its support on the floor of the House it can always do so.

The Greens had said they would not have had confidence in the Liberals and both major parties said they would not do deals with the Greens or govern in minority. So had it happened then I think what would have happened is that Labor and the Greens would have brought the government down immediately. Then either Labor would have broken their promise and governed in minority anyway, or they would have kept their promise and tried to force an early election.

Anyway the lack of detail from either major party on what exactly was going to happen makes me suspect they both had internal polls saying Labor couldn't win.

Blunderbuss
16-03-2018, 03:57 PM
Kevin gets a mention from the BBC here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-43425293 a story about the first state parliament to elect a majority of women.

Kevin Bonham
16-03-2018, 04:44 PM
Kevin gets a mention from the BBC here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-43425293 a story about the first state parliament to elect a majority of women.

Yes they interviewed me this morning. They were my only interview so far today. Yesterday I had the most I've ever done in one day, eight.

Ian Murray
16-03-2018, 08:31 PM
Yes they interviewed me this morning. They were my only interview so far today. Yesterday I had the most I've ever done in one day, eight.

Saw you on ABC news yesterday. Thought to myself: "I know him!" Then the caption appeared - Kevin Bonham, Political Analyst.

(Tongue n cheek: Not Dr Kevin Bonham)

Kevin Bonham
16-03-2018, 11:57 PM
I officially have no bloody idea who will win in South Australia:

http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2018/03/2018-sa-election-late-polls-and-other.html

Kevin Bonham
13-04-2018, 08:49 PM
Nominations have been announced for two Tasmanian Legislative Council seats. The new seat of Prosser has attracted 13 candidates, the largest field for 28 years and I think the equal second largest ever (the record is 15). Hobart held by left-wing independent Rob Valentine has attracted 6 candidates including an endorsed Liberal and an independent with close links to the Greens.

My guides to these seats:
http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2018/03/legislative-council-2018-prosser.html
http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com.au/2018/03/legislative-council-2018-hobart.html

Kevin Bonham
01-05-2018, 09:15 PM
Chaos in the Tasmanian parliament on day 1 as former Hobart Lord Mayor Sue Hickey decides she doesn't want to be a backbencher, snatches the Speakership away from veteran conservative Rene Hidding by voting for herself, then declares she isn't sitting in the Liberal party room and will vote on all bills on their merits.

Kevin Bonham
03-05-2018, 10:20 PM
2004 Tasmanian champion Charles Chadwick in the lead item on local Southern Cross news, concerning the contentions Mt Wellington cable car proposal.

OiKPxSElAGY&t=214s

Kevin Bonham
16-05-2018, 10:34 AM
The Liberal Party has won the new Tasmanian Legislative Council seat of Prosser (Rob Valentine retained Hobart very easily).

Kevin Bonham
23-06-2018, 10:11 PM
Labor has been smashed in the Darling Range (WA) by-election despite a ReachTEL poll last weekend putting them well ahead and a Labor internal poll today putting them just ahead. They'll probably get about 46% 2PP.

Kevin Bonham
30-07-2018, 10:54 PM
Major culture war breaking out in Tasmania over the sacking of Angela Williamson (who I know through Twitter but have never met in person) by Cricket Tasmania over tweets criticising the Tasmanian government and in particular the health minister Michael Ferguson, a pro-life Christian.

Samantha Maiden's article is a good place to start https://www.smh.com.au/national/cricket-australia-sacks-worker-over-series-of-tweets-about-abortion-20180729-p4zuar.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nc&eid=socialn%3Atwi-13omn1677-edtrl-other%3Annn-17%2F02%2F2014-edtrs_socialshare-all-nnn-nnn-vars-o%26sa%3DD%26usg%3DALhdy28zsr6qiq but obviously heaps more for those who want to look further.

Garvinator
30-07-2018, 11:21 PM
Major culture war breaking out in Tasmania over the sacking of Angela Williamson (who I know through Twitter but have never met in person) by Cricket Tasmania over tweets criticising the Tasmanian government and in particular the health minister Michael Ferguson, a pro-life Christian.

Samantha Maiden's article is a good place to start https://www.smh.com.au/national/cricket-australia-sacks-worker-over-series-of-tweets-about-abortion-20180729-p4zuar.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nc&eid=socialn%3Atwi-13omn1677-edtrl-other%3Annn-17%2F02%2F2014-edtrs_socialshare-all-nnn-nnn-vars-o%26sa%3DD%26usg%3DALhdy28zsr6qiq but obviously heaps more for those who want to look further.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/cricket-body-under-fire-for-sacking-employee-who-posted-about-abortion-on-twitter/news-story/58d54a09f0ac215e2f1c9244428eca23

Capablanca-Fan
02-08-2018, 03:49 AM
Was she tweeting as a private individual, or did the tweets mention her employment at Cricket Australia?

In general, companies are far too nannying about what employees do on their own time or post on their own social media pages in a private capacity. The Left have been very big on punishing conservatives for personal opinions said elsewhere, but that mentality can come back to bite the Left.

antichrist
02-08-2018, 04:59 AM
Was she tweeting as a private individual, or did the tweets mention her employment at Cricket Australia?

In general, companies are far too nannying about what employees do on their own time or post on their own social media pages in a private capacity. The Left have been very big on punishing conservatives for personal opinions said elsewhere, but that mentality can come back to bite the Left.

Decades ago when I was a rep of a then radical green group, the group without asking me put my corporation employer's phone number in their magazine as a contact for their group and we were flooded with calls during a major campaign. Twenty years prior to mobile phones. The switchboard operator, a friend and sympathiser let me get away with it that time as did my three immediate bosses. The head honcho, who went on to become head of a uranium mining group, would have had my head on a plate before smoko if he would have found out.

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2018, 12:10 PM
Was she tweeting as a private individual, or did the tweets mention her employment at Cricket Australia?

The tweets in question did not mention her CA employment, nor do I recall any other tweets from her at that time doing so. Her profile did contain the words "cricket advocate" around that time.


In general, companies are far too nannying about what employees do on their own time or post on their own social media pages in a private capacity. The Left have been very big on punishing conservatives for personal opinions said elsewhere, but that mentality can come back to bite the Left.

Agreed; consistency is a big problem here on both sides. A lot of lefties who didn't care when the state government tried to make insulting another person over their political opinion illegal in 2012 are claiming this as a big "free speech" issue and some righties who defended Israel Folau have either gone to ground over this one or else supported the sacking.

idledim
02-08-2018, 12:28 PM
Was she tweeting as a private individual, or did the tweets mention her employment at Cricket Australia?

In general, companies are far too nannying about what employees do on their own time or post on their own social media pages in a private capacity. The Left have been very big on punishing conservatives for personal opinions said elsewhere, but that mentality can come back to bite the Left.

The 'Tasmanian cultural war' mentioned by Kevin in #1054 hasn't yet reached North to Devonport. Whether this is because there is no war, or whether it's because this is Devonport, I can't be sure.
I've heard that the staffer who passed on the tweet to CA has lost their job, but I haven't heard anyone defending the sacking of the tweeter or opposing the sacking of the staffer. I understand that the tweeter was a govt. relations officer with CA.
This case is not like the recent Israel Folau tweets - where there was a war between those who demanded his sacking for expressing his views (including some no doubt who defend the free speech rights of Angela Williamson) and those who defended Israel's right to freedom of conscience and expression; and it's not like the case of the young A.C.T. woman who discovered she had no legal rights to voice her opinions on SSM because she was a 'contractor.' In that case, those who opposed her views were silent on the subject of 'sham - contracting' and open in support of her sacking.
I support Angela Williamson's right to free speech - just as I support the rights of Israel Folau, Bill Leak, Callum Thwaites, Margaret Court, Madeline et al to free expression of their views. I just can't find the cultural warriors demanding she be hung, drawn and quartered.

idledim
02-08-2018, 12:51 PM
... and some righties who defended Israel Folau have either gone to ground over this one or else supported the sacking.(KB)

Who are these 'righties' supporting the sacking?

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2018, 01:13 PM
The 'Tasmanian cultural war' mentioned by Kevin in #1054 hasn't yet reached North to Devonport. Whether this is because there is no war, or whether it's because this is Devonport, I can't be sure.

Yes I was preempting one I expected to start but it actually to this point hasn't and I am now suspecting it won't.

There is however a right-wing poster well known on #politas Twitter who has been defending the sacking (https://twitter.com/nick88888/status/1024612519434805251) (at least in principle) and who seems to have some sort of link to Senator Duniam based on a past exchange with Williamson.

Also saw a few anti-abortion types gloating about it.

Kevin Bonham
02-08-2018, 01:34 PM
I've heard that the staffer who passed on the tweet to CA has lost their job,

Not the same tweets. A Liberal staffer was forced to resign earlier this year after being found to have sent some of Williamson's tweets to CA in a failed (at the time) attempt to get Williamson (herself an ex Liberal staffer) sacked. The tweets cited in the letter sacking Williamson are more recent than that. There seems to have been some kind of discussion between CA/CT and at least one government figure prior to the sacking but the government disputes that it provided sensitive information or that it supported sacking Williamson.

Patrick Byrom
03-08-2018, 12:40 AM
...This case is not like the recent Israel Folau tweets - where there was a war between those who demanded his sacking for expressing his views (including some no doubt who defend the free speech rights of Angela Williamson) and those who defended Israel's right to freedom of conscience and expression; and it's not like the case of the young A.C.T. woman who discovered she had no legal rights to voice her opinions on SSM because she was a 'contractor.' In that case, those who opposed her views were silent on the subject of 'sham - contracting' and open in support of her sacking. ...I'm not sure why you're using 'scare quotes' - what the young ACT lady does (or did) seems very similar to what I do as a chess coach, and I've always regarded myself as a (sub-)contractor. The important point is that employment protections shouldn't depend on whether you're classified as an employee or a sub-contractor - although I don't imagine that view will be popular in the LNP! If she had been an employee, I can't imagine that she could have been legally sacked, whereas the position of the Tasmanian employee of CA seems to be much shakier.

idledim
03-08-2018, 11:01 AM
I'm not sure why you're using 'scare quotes' - what the young ACT lady does (or did) seems very similar to what I do as a chess coach, and I've always regarded myself as a (sub-)contractor. The important point is that employment protections shouldn't depend on whether you're classified as an employee or a sub-contractor - although I don't imagine that view will be popular in the LNP! If she had been an employee, I can't imagine that she could have been legally sacked, whereas the position of the Tasmanian employee of CA seems to be much shakier. (PB)

From the office of the Fair Work Ombudsman as quoted on the ABC news site:

"As the FWO has been unable to determine the nature of the engagement based on the evidence available, we will be taking no further action in relation to this matter at this time."

The inspector noted there was some evidence that the relationship did indicate employment, while other evidence indicated a contracting situation.

Not to have used 'scare quotes' would have incorrectly indicated that her employment status was settled by Fair Work. It is also not clear that she could have been legally sacked, even if she was a contractor in the A.C.T., since the A.C.T. Anti-Discrimination Act seems to provide protection, at least according to Graeme Orr, a professor of law at the University of Queensland (https://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace/teen-who-lost-job-over-no-vote-has-grounds-for-legal-discrimination-claim-20170920-gyl63t.html).
Your final point - that Angela Williamson's situation is much shakier than Madeline's - seems to be at odds with the rest of your argument.

Kevin Bonham
03-08-2018, 12:46 PM
The important point is that employment protections shouldn't depend on whether you're classified as an employee or a sub-contractor - although I don't imagine that view will be popular in the LNP! If she had been an employee, I can't imagine that she could have been legally sacked, whereas the position of the Tasmanian employee of CA seems to be much shakier.

In my experience it cuts both ways. At the moment I work overwhelmingly as a personal services contractor except for times when, for insurance reasons or the length of a task, it is sometimes necessary for me to be an employee. As a contractor there are basically no constraints on my ability to speak out about anything I want to, except that now and then I will have to sign a confidentiality agreement relating to certain specific data. If someone decides to stop giving me contracts because of something I have said on a political matter, I can't do anything about that - though I have no reason to suspect it's ever happened.

If I was an employee under the State Services Act I would have protection from being fired because of unrelated public comments. But I would also then be covered by nebulous and vague State Services Act provisions preventing me from commenting publicly about anything deemed relevant to my work without permission of a specified bureaucrat. It might even be that in a case where an employer was not directly bothered about something I said, an office-politics rival could use a claim that I was technically in breach (on some interpretation) of the SSA to try to get me sacked. In the one case where I was covered by the SSA (long ago when I was a less prominent commentator) I basically dropped out of public life for several months to avoid the SSA.

I actually prefer to be missing protections that I may not ever need, than to be subject to constraints I have no hope of understanding.

In cases like Williamson's, what often happens is that employers set up restrictive conditions on employees' social media behaviour and then when the employee says something controversial they fire them not on account of what they have said, but because they have breached the social media policy in a manner that is capable of affecting their work performance. Sometimes employers are successful in defending this approach in court, sometimes not. Had Madeleine in the ACT case been an employee her employer could have subjected her to such conditions and while she would have had a process to complain through, it's unclear if she would have been successful.

Initially I had some potential sympathy for CA/CT because when someone is employed in a government relations role they do have to have good relations with the government, and a person who enters such a role needs to accept that that may sometimes constrain what they can say. However since then people involved with the sport have said that Williamson had recently been successful in securing funding, and Minister Ferguson and CT have both agreed that when CT rang Minister Ferguson to apologise for the tweets, Ferguson said it was no problem. It seems that either the employer panicked or else this was a pretext of getting rid of Williamson when somebody wanted her gone for some other reason.

Capablanca-Fan
03-08-2018, 01:25 PM
I support Angela Williamson's right to free speech - just as I support the rights of Israel Folau, Bill Leak, Callum Thwaites, Margaret Court, Madeline et al to free expression of their views. I just can't find the cultural warriors demanding she be hung, drawn and quartered.
Similar to Ben Shapiro today about a very obnoxious racist bint:

No, Sarah Jeong Shouldn’t Be Fired. Yes, Non-White People Can Be Racist. And Yes, The Left Is Filled With Hypocrites.
(https://www.dailywire.com/news/33973/no-sarah-jeong-shouldnt-be-fired-yes-non-white-ben-shapiro)

Patrick Byrom
03-08-2018, 01:27 PM
From the office of the Fair Work Ombudsman as quoted on the ABC news site:
"As the FWO has been unable to determine the nature of the engagement based on the evidence available, we will be taking no further action in relation to this matter at this time." The inspector noted there was some evidence that the relationship did indicate employment, while other evidence indicated a contracting situation.

Not to have used 'scare quotes' would have incorrectly indicated that her employment status was settled by Fair Work.Thanks for the clarification. Her employment status was obviously ambiguous (as I suspect mine is also in some cases), but I'm still not sure that justifies the use of the term "sham-contracting" (even in 'scare quotes'), as FWO didn't definitely find that she was an employee.


Your final point - that Angela Williamson's situation is much shakier than Madeline's - seems to be at odds with the rest of your argument.What Kevin said above basically summarises my current point of view: "Initially I had some potential sympathy for CA/CT because when someone is employed in a government relations role they do have to have good relations with the government, and a person who enters such a role needs to accept that that may sometimes constrain what they can say." I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that Ms Williamson was sacked for activities directly affecting her work, not for her views on abortion. The opposition of the young lady in the ACT to SSM had only a tangential connection with her work.

Patrick Byrom
03-08-2018, 01:33 PM
Similar to Ben Shapiro today about a very obnoxious racist bint:
No, Sarah Jeong Shouldn’t Be Fired. Yes, Non-White People Can Be Racist. And Yes, The Left Is Filled With Hypocrites. (https://www.dailywire.com/news/33973/no-sarah-jeong-shouldnt-be-fired-yes-non-white-ben-shapiro)But you and Shapiro would do nothing to protect people from punishment for expressing their views, so your support is useless. Shapiro makes that quite clear (from your link):

Private corporations obviously have a right to fire employees; there are indeed cases where the toxicity of a person’s current statements or the revelation of past statements about which an employer was ignorant endangers the status of the employer.

Patrick Byrom
03-08-2018, 01:36 PM
... I actually prefer to be missing protections that I may not ever need, than to be subject to constraints I have no hope of understanding.I agree there are advantages to being a sub-contractor, but I suspect that you and I can better protect ourselves than a young person on their first job without any protections against unfair dismissal.

This is probably a good example (http://archive.fo/2018.07.31-231951/https://au.jora.com/job/Labourer-a0228a0f491ff2b6f4b1c0fda3bce2e7). The advert is looking for 16 year old labourers with an ABN, so they will almost certainly be 'employed' as sub-contractors, with no unfair dismissal protections.

idledim
03-08-2018, 02:20 PM
The opposition of the young lady in the ACT to SSM had only a tangential connection with her work. (PB)

Does this mean you support her right to free speech in that debate?

Do you support the sacking of Angela Williamson if Fair Work concludes,
that Ms Williamson was sacked for activities directly affecting her work, not for her views on abortion? (PB)

Patrick Byrom
03-08-2018, 03:26 PM
Does this mean you support her right to free speech in that debate? Do you support the sacking of Angela Williamson if Fair Work concludes,
We need a bit of pedantry first. Nobody being discussed here has been denied their right to free speech. What is being discussed is whether their free speech should be protected from actions by their 'employer' (for want of a better term).

I believe that speech that is legal and doesn't affect a person's job directly should be so protected, in general. So I believe that the ACT lady's speech should be protected; while the Tasmanian lady's speech should not be - based on my, possibly incorrect, assumption that it affects her liaison with the Tasmanian government.

But I don't support the sacking of either. I just believe that the second case is more justifiable. However in neither case do I have the full information on which the sacking was based.

idledim
03-08-2018, 03:43 PM
August, 2018


The opposition of the young lady in the ACT to SSM had only a tangential connection with her work.
I believe that the ACT lady's speech should be protected
I believe that speech that is legal and doesn't affect a person's job directly should be so protected, in general.
I don't support the sacking of either.(PB)

October, 2017


.. But Madeline's job was entertaining children, so her religious and political beliefs should be irrelevant.(Capablanca Fan)



If she had kept her views private, they would have been irrelevant. But if her public views damage her employer's business, that is a different matter. (PB)

August, 2018

.
.. you would do nothing to protect people from punishment for expressing their views, so your support is useless.(PB to CF)

Patrick Byrom
03-08-2018, 06:37 PM
August, 2018 ... October, 2017 ... August, 2018 ... I don't see any contradiction in the above quotes.

Keep in mind that my belief that the employment rights of people regarded as contractors should be protected (which is definitely not Capablanca-Fan's position) is not reflected in the actual law, so the fact that I believe she shouldn't have been fired doesn't affect her 'employer's' right to fire her if he feels his business has been damaged. And also keep in mind my final sentence: "However in neither case do I have the full information on which the sacking was based."

Capablanca-Fan
05-08-2018, 02:05 AM
Note that "government should not punish or overrule someone if they choose to do X" is logically distinct from "someone is right to choose X".

The Left should also realize that if they cheer when conservatives are fired for something they said or donated to outside their work hours, there will be some on the Right who will take a leaf out of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals and throw it right back at them.


4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."

Also called: make them eat their own cooking. The reasoning could go on the lines of: The Left have become more and more intolerant and have drummed too many conservatives out of jobs. Reasoning evidently doesn't work, so the only way remaining to show them how misguided these rules are is to make sure that some of their own fall victim. So maybe they will realize that the only safe way for all to proceed is that a person's political or religious views expressed on his own time should not be punished by his employer.

Kevin Bonham
05-08-2018, 02:13 PM
Victorian Upper House former DLP MP Rachel Carling-Jenkins has quit Cory Bernardi's Australian Conservatives and given Cory and the party a good roasting in the process:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/it-s-over-cory-bernardi-s-only-victorian-mp-sensationally-quits-20180804-p4zvic.html

Patrick Byrom
05-08-2018, 02:14 PM
...Also called: make them eat their own cooking. The reasoning could go on the lines of: The Left have become more and more intolerant and have drummed too many conservatives out of jobs. Reasoning evidently doesn't work, so the only way remaining to show them how misguided these rules are is to make sure that some of their own fall victim. So maybe they will realize that the only safe way for all to proceed is that a person's political or religious views expressed on his own time should not be punished by his employer.Seriously - have you ever read any American history!? Why don't you start by looking up Senator McCarthy on Wikipedia. The 'Right' has been intolerant, and punished people in the US for their views for centuries. It's not some new reaction to left-wing behaviour.

And it's irrelevant to this thread, as all Australian states provide protection to employees from unfair dismissal, unlike the US.

idledim
05-08-2018, 02:22 PM
... the fact that I believe she shouldn't have been fired doesn't affect her 'employer's' right to fire her if he feels his business has been damaged. (PB)

Madeline's employer was a woman. Unconscious bias?

antichrist
05-08-2018, 02:27 PM
Was it a case of the employee expected to take dog for a walk and pick up it's poo?

idledim
05-08-2018, 02:49 PM
The ABC's social media policy applies to both employees and contractors, with the ABC including a very broad definition of 'worker' in its policy.
Under the heading “Who it applies to” it states “All Workers”. The expression “Workers” is defined as:

“Any person who carries out work in any capacity for the ABC, including work as: an employee; a contractor or subcontractor; an employee of a contractor or subcontractor; an employee of a labour hire company who has been assigned to work at the ABC; an outworker; an apprentice or trainee; a student gaining work experience; or a volunteer.”

Recently, Paul Bongiorno, a paid ABC contractor, tweeted a racial slur about Warren Mundine A0 (former ALP President and current Sky commentator.)
Mr. Mundine complained and was told (by the RN Breakfast's Executive Producer) that the ABC was not responsible for tweets by paid contractors. There was no attempt to deny that the comment was a racial slur.

Mr. Mundine then complained to Michelle Guthrie, who repeated the claim that the ABC was not responsible for tweets by paid contractors.

Mr. Bongiorno's tweet does seem to violate the ABC Social Media Policy and, as a racial slur, is likely to harm the reputation of the ABC. In other words, it meets the criteria PB sets for disciplinary action. Can I therefore conclude that PB is in favour of the ABC taking disciplinary action against its paid contractor in this instance?

Kevin Bonham
05-08-2018, 03:02 PM
Full ABC social media policy here:

http://about.abc.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SocialMediaPOL.pdf

Patrick Byrom
05-08-2018, 05:03 PM
Madeline's employer was a woman. Unconscious bias?Irrelevance? But thanks for providing the correction, which prompted me to do some further research. It seems that Madeline provided some additional justification for her 'sacking' (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/boss-fires-worker-over-same-sex-marriage-views/8961658) - it wasn't just about her Facebook post.

Patrick Byrom
05-08-2018, 05:29 PM
... Mr. Bongiorno's tweet does seem to violate the ABC Social Media Policy and, as a racial slur, is likely to harm the reputation of the ABC. In other words, it meets the criteria PB sets for disciplinary action. Can I therefore conclude that PB is in favour of the ABC taking disciplinary action against its paid contractor in this instance?Mr Bongiorno has apologised and deleted the tweet, which is significantly different to Madeline's behaviour. Until you raised the issue, I had never even heard of it, and was unaware that Mr Bongiorno was even an ABC contractor, so I doubt there has been any significant damage to the ABC.

idledim
05-08-2018, 06:15 PM
Mr Bongiorno has apologised and deleted the tweet, which is significantly different to Madeline's behaviour. Until you raised the issue, I had never even heard of it, and was unaware that Mr Bongiorno was even an ABC contractor, so I doubt there has been any significant damage to the ABC.

Mr. Bongiorno is described as key talent by the A.B.C. on the A.B.C. website. Your ignorance of this matter is hardly an indication that tolerance of racial slurs doesn't harm the ABC. I would be very surprised if the ABC shared your view. As Mr. Mundine noted in his correspondence to Ms. Guthrie:
His tweet received widespread publicity and a great deal of condemnation. It included a racial slur. He is a paid ABC commentator and highlighted on the ABC website as key talent.

Mr. Bongiorno made the slur on July 8. In her response to Mr. Mundine, dated 23 July, Ms. Guthrie also claimed that the tweet had been removed. However, in his reply to her response, dated 31 July, Mr. Mundine disputed this, alleging that, "contrary to the statement in your letter, Mr Bongiorno has not deleted the tweet. As at today’s date it remains on Twitter."

I find your inference that Madeline should be required to apologise for her conscience, and to delete her private facebook post, deeply troubling. It is consistent with your October, 2017 post on this matter; and inconsistent with your recent posts, including:
The opposition of the young lady in the ACT to SSM had only a tangential connection with her work.
I believe that the ACT lady's speech should be protected
I believe that speech that is legal and doesn't affect a person's job directly should be so protected, in general.

It is also inconsistent with statements made on this matter at the time by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

Kevin Bonham
05-08-2018, 08:38 PM
Mr. Bongiorno made the slur on July 8. In her response to Mr. Mundine, dated 23 July, Ms. Guthrie also claimed that the tweet had been removed. However, in his reply to her response, dated 31 July, Mr. Mundine disputed this, alleging that, "contrary to the statement in your letter, Mr Bongiorno has not deleted the tweet. As at today’s date it remains on Twitter."

It's not there now, though several other tweets by Bongiorno attempting to defend/explain it and reusing the slur in question are.

Patrick Byrom
05-08-2018, 09:39 PM
Mr. Bongiorno is described as key talent by the A.B.C. on the A.B.C. website. Your ignorance of this matter is hardly an indication that tolerance of racial slurs doesn't harm the ABC. I would be very surprised if the ABC shared your view. As Mr. Mundine noted in his correspondence to Ms. Guthrie:
[I]His tweet received widespread publicity and a great deal of condemnation. It included a racial slur. He is a paid ABC commentator and highlighted on the ABC website as key talent.Firstly the ABC definitely didn't 'tolerate' the slur. I understand that they asked for its removal, and it has now been removed. And I'm definitely familiar with Paul Bongiorno, so the fact that I didn't know he was a 'key talent' at the ABC is a strong indication that the general public would also be unaware of that fact, and therefore that his tweet would have had little impact anyway on how the ABC is regarded (I never said anything about how the ABC regarded him). This is a complete contrast to the Madeline case, where people who hired CKP (her 'employer') would have obviously connected her behaviour directly with CKP, as she would have been the person from CKP with whom they would have had the most contact.


I find your inference that Madeline should be required to apologise for her conscience, and to delete her private facebook post, deeply troubling. It is consistent with your October, 2017 post on this matter; and inconsistent with your recent posts, including: ... Of course I never implied (I imply; you infer) anything of the sort. In the article I linked to, it was claimed that Madeline was abusive when approached by the brother of her 'employer', and that she did nothing to help avoid damage to her 'employer's' reputation. That is a complete contrast to the behaviour of Bongiorno, who apologised for his tweet, and took steps to avoid damage to the ABC's reputation. In fact what Madeline did on Facebook was actually public, not private, although only temporary.

Bongiorno's behaviour after the problem with the tweet was pointed out is an excellent example of how an employee/contractor should behave in order to avoid damage to their 'employer's' reputation, and it would therefore be extremely difficult to justify 'firing' him. Madeline's behaviour, if the reports are correct, is a case study in how not to behave if you don't want to be 'fired'. Her 'firing' can be justified based on her other (alleged) behaviour.

EDIT: On further checking, it's not clear if the ABC asked for Bongiorno to apologise and remove the tweet, although it is implied in reports that ABC Managing Director Guthrie did. But he did apologise, as shown in this tweet:
Paul Bongiorno

@PaulBongiorno
I never intended it as a racist slur, as I explained, I withdraw any racist implication – something I abhor – and apologise for causing offence. I have long admired your commitment to indigenous social justice

6:50 PM – Jul 16, 2018
10
See Paul Bongiorno’s other Tweets

Patrick Byrom
06-08-2018, 01:13 AM
As Bongiorno said in his tweet, he didn't intend his use of the term "Uncle Tom" to be racist, and it was used in the context of "‘Uncle Tom’ lefties". I can see why Mundine was offended, but I doubt the term was directed at him. Wikipedia indicates that it can be used in a non-racist sense: "It is similarly used to negatively describe a person who betrays their own group by participating in its oppression, whether or not they do so willingly."

antichrist
06-08-2018, 07:19 AM
That is the same Paul who when a priest accused Victorian farmers of doing funny things to their sheep and spilling it all in confession - but they have to keep quiet about what priests do to boys.

idledim
06-08-2018, 08:39 AM
The issue in the Bongiorno matter is not whether he should be 'fired.' Mr. Mundine certainly did not seek that remedy. He said:
I am seeking a response from the ABC as to the consequences under ABC’s policies and standards for Mr Bongiorno having made the tweet.

The issue is, rather, that the ABC used Mr. Bongiorno's employment status as grounds for not investigating the complaint. RN Breakfast's Executive Producer said:
He is not an ABC employee but a contractor. If you would like to take further action, you’ll need to contact Paul Bongiorno directly.

Ms. Guthrie said that, because he appears solely as an external political commentator ... Mr Bongiorno is in a different category to those who represent the ABC in their work as journalists, presenters and commentators.

In other words, the issue seems to be that ABC Staff and Management misrepresented the ABC Social Media Policy to Mr. Mundine and used that misrepresentation as the basis for not properly investigating his complaint.

As to what disciplinary action might be available in this and similar cases, including the matter of Angela Williamson, and the matter of Israel Folau, and the matter of Madeline, the only clear thing is that the rest of Australia knows less about this than one Patrick Byrom - and can not know until (at the shortest) the High Court rules in the matter of Michaela Banerji. The Court might overturn the decision of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal which overturned the 2013 decision of the Federal Court. If it does so, then workers will most likely be more tightly bound by their organisation's Social Media policies. If the High Court upholds the Appeal, then it may well say (and I hope it does) that the implied freedom of speech it 'discovered' in the constitution in 1992 should also properly inform the Law of Contract.

Right now, we all just have to wait and see - except for one Patrick Byrom, the same Patrick Byrom who wears his ignorance as a proud boast when it suits him and who simply knows that, in the matter of young Madeline, her 'firing' can be justified based on her other (alleged) behaviour, notwithstanding the absence of a social media policy at CKP, her presumption of innocence, her clear denial that she was verbally aggressive to Madlin's brother and Madlin's own stated reason for dismissing Madeline:
Today I fired a staff member who made it public knowledge they feel 'it's okay to vote no'. Advertising your desire to vote no for SSM is, in my eyes, hate speech.

Patrick Byrom
06-08-2018, 10:19 AM
The issue in the Bongiorno matter is not whether he should be 'fired.' Mr. Mundine certainly did not seek that remedy. He said:
I am seeking a response from the ABC as to the consequences under ABC’s policies and standards for Mr Bongiorno having made the tweet. The issue is, rather, that the ABC used Mr. Bongiorno's employment status as grounds for not investigating the complaint. RN Breakfast's Executive Producer said:
He is not an ABC employee but a contractor. If you would like to take further action, you’ll need to contact Paul Bongiorno directly.
Ms. Guthrie said that, because he appears solely as an external political commentator ... Mr Bongiorno is in a different category to those who represent the ABC in their work as journalists, presenters and commentators.
In other words, the issue seems to be that ABC Staff and Management misrepresented the ABC Social Media Policy to Mr. Mundine and used that misrepresentation as the basis for not properly investigating his complaint.I don't believe the ABC did misrepresent their policy, based on what Kevin posted. If Mundine thinks it did, then that is an issue for him to raise with the ABC. But even if Bongiorno is covered by the policy, there is no justification for any disciplinary action against him as the tweet probably isn't racist anyway, and he has apologised and deleted it.


As to what disciplinary action might be available in this and similar cases, ... Does this case concern workers or contractors?


Right now, we all just have to wait and see - except for one Patrick Byrom, the same Patrick Byrom who wears his ignorance as a proud boast when it suits him and who simply knows that, in the matter of young Madeline, her 'firing' can be justified based on her other (alleged) behaviour, notwithstanding the absence of a social media policy at CKP, her presumption of innocence, her clear denial that she was verbally aggressive to Madlin's brother and Madlin's own stated reason for dismissing Madeline:
Today I fired a staff member who made it public knowledge they feel 'it's okay to vote no'. Advertising your desire to vote no for SSM is, in my eyes, hate speech.
As Madeline is clearly a contractor, CKP doesn't need to justify her 'firing' - there's no "presumption of innocence". But if they needed a justification, her lack of action in removing the 'problem' CKP had with the post - which doesn't mean she had to delete the post! - is sufficient.

Patrick Byrom
06-08-2018, 06:22 PM
...As to what disciplinary action might be available in this and similar cases, including the matter of Angela Williamson, and the matter of Israel Folau, and the matter of Madeline, the only clear thing is that the rest of Australia knows less about this than one Patrick Byrom - and can not know until (at the shortest) the High Court rules in the matter of Michaela Banerji. The Court might overturn the decision of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal which overturned the 2013 decision of the Federal Court. If it does so, then workers will most likely be more tightly bound by their organisation's Social Media policies. If the High Court upholds the Appeal, then it may well say (and I hope it does) that the implied freedom of speech it 'discovered' in the constitution in 1992 should also properly inform the Law of Contract.Banerji's tweets were anonymous, so I'm not sure that case will be very relevant to the other examples. Although the High Court could make a broader ruling, of course.

idledim
06-08-2018, 07:37 PM
Banerji's tweets were anonymous, so I'm not sure that case will be very relevant to the other examples. Although the High Court could make a broader ruling, of course.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/the-roundtable/roundtable,-august-5,-2018/10071832

Kevin Bonham
08-08-2018, 12:37 AM
The Tasmanian state government appears to be now exploring further limits on public servant comment on social media:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-07/social-media-policy-for-public-sector-draft-under-fire/10083040

This may actually be a result of the trolling of Angela Williamson by staffer Martine Haley early in the year (for which Haley lost her job) but pro-ALP unions are up in arms about it and the Human Rights Act brigade are also making hay.

Capablanca-Fan
08-08-2018, 02:58 AM
Irrelevance? But thanks for providing the correction, which prompted me to do some further research. It seems that Madeline provided some additional justification for her 'sacking' (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/boss-fires-worker-over-same-sex-marriage-views/8961658) — it wasn't just about her Facebook post.

Of course it was. The owner made it very clear that she would not employ someone who voted differently from her and posted that she voted differently. No different in principle from voting the "wrong" way in an election or in the Republic referendum.

Patrick Byrom
08-08-2018, 09:35 AM
Of course it was. The owner made it very clear that she would not employ someone who voted differently from her and posted that she voted differently. No different in principle from voting the "wrong" way in an election or in the Republic referendum.The owner also listed other reasons.

But do you think the government should protect people from being fired for their political or religious views? I know you don't, so your point is irrelevant, even if it was true.

Kevin Bonham
08-08-2018, 11:09 AM
The Tasmanian state government appears to be now exploring further limits on public servant comment on social media:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-07/social-media-policy-for-public-sector-draft-under-fire/10083040

This may actually be a result of the trolling of Angela Williamson by staffer Martine Haley early in the year (for which Haley lost her job) but pro-ALP unions are up in arms about it and the Human Rights Act brigade are also making hay.

The Premier has said the draft has "unintended consequences" and needs work.

Desmond
08-09-2018, 09:37 PM
Looks like the Liberals have been routed in the Wagga by-election. So much for learning the lessons from Longman.

Independent Joe McGirr on track for historic Wagga win (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/independent-joe-mcgirr-on-track-for-historic-wagga-win-20180908-p502kz.html)

Independent candidate Joe McGirr was on track for a historic win in the seat of Wagga Wagga, as results from Saturday’s byelection showed voters had abandoned the Liberal Party in droves.

With half the primary votes counted on Saturday night, Dr McGirr was polling ahead of Liberal candidate Julia Ham, who had slipped into third place, as swings above 30 per cent hammered the Liberals in some booths.

Dr McGirr's bid could be hampered by Labor candidate Dan Hayes, who was polling second on primary votes with half the vote counted, and was expected to benefit from preferences from the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers party.

As the results rolled in, Liberal Party sources were conceding the results were disastrous for the party, which has held Wagga Wagga for more than 60 years.

Even if the party managed to cling to the seat, its historically "safe" status and its 12.9 per cent margin will be demolished.

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian is expected to lay the blame upon the federal leadership coup, which claimed Malcolm Turnbull's prime ministership during the byelection campaign, in a bid to ward of interpretations of the rout as a reflection of her political judgment. ...

Kevin Bonham
08-09-2018, 10:02 PM
Not exactly sure what kind of shocking result this is yet but it's not just an ordinary vanilla loss of a safe seat to an indie; it's worse than that. They may not even make the final two after preferences.

Desmond
09-09-2018, 08:37 PM
I noticed you've got polls for best state premier of the last 40 years, looks like Can-do Campbell has some work to do. :lol:

Kevin Bonham
09-09-2018, 11:59 PM
I noticed you've got polls for best state premier of the last 40 years, looks like Can-do Campbell has some work to do. :lol:

Yes I'm going to do some Best Conservative Premier runoff rounds to counter the voters' blatant Labor bias but it doesn't look like Campbell will be featuring!

Kevin Bonham
31-10-2018, 08:07 PM
Hobart City's election has been dominated by annoyance about a proposed cable car. As a result Hobartians who are a generally left-wing lot anyway have elected Anna Reynolds (Independent who recently left the Greens) as Lord Mayor and Helen Burnet (Green) as Deputy. Still waiting to see the final makeup of council.

Kevin Bonham
31-10-2018, 08:08 PM
Yes I'm going to do some Best Conservative Premier runoff rounds to counter the voters' blatant Labor bias but it doesn't look like Campbell will be featuring!

Round 2 is up now, including Best Non-Labor Premier and five state/territory runoffs.

https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2018/10/best-state-premiers-of-past-40-years.html

antichrist
01-11-2018, 01:17 AM
Round 2 is up now, including Best Non-Labor Premier and five state/territory runoffs.

https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2018/10/best-state-premiers-of-past-40-years.html

I don't know if you have had previous polls considering premiers of earlier era than 40 years. If it was an open (like sprint championships) Jack Lang would win my vote on how he responded to the Great Depression in NSW. It caused his downfall. (I met the guy when he was in his nineties - think that old)

Kevin Bonham
01-11-2018, 08:18 AM
I don't know if you have had previous polls considering premiers of earlier era than 40 years. If it was an open (like sprint championships) Jack Lang would win my vote on how he responded to the Great Depression in NSW. It caused his downfall. (I met the guy when he was in his nineties - think that old)

No, I'd like to but not enough people remember back that far.

Kevin Bonham
14-11-2018, 10:36 PM
For those voting in the Victorian election, please vote below the line for candidates (you only need to number 1-5 minimum, though numbering more will make your vote more powerful) and help stop preference harvesters from making money by wrecking democracy.

This particularly applies to those on the left - if you vote above the line for pretty much anyone, especially Labor or the Greens, your preference could end up with a right-wing and/or crackpot party.

https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2018/11/fear-and-loathing-with-victorian-upper.html
Fear And Loathing With Victorian Upper House Preference Flows

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2018, 12:57 PM
Remarkable day in Tasmanian politics on Tuesday. The government introduced legislation on removing divorce requirements for people who change gender while married. The independent-minded Liberal Speaker, Sue Hickey, crossed the floor 11 times to side with Labor and Green amendments to the bill that at the same time removed the requirement for surgery for a gender change under law (a stat dec will be required), made declaring a baby's gender on its birth certificate optional and added extensive protection for gender identity to the state Anti-Discrimination Act. The legislation now goes to the Upper House, the Government having been forced to vote against its own Bill because of the scale of the amendments.

Hickey has flagged she wants to make a difference on other issues so the Government has a serious problem.

antichrist
22-11-2018, 01:41 PM
Remarkable day in Tasmanian politics on Tuesday. The government introduced legislation on removing divorce requirements for people who change gender while married. The independent-minded Liberal Speaker, Sue Hickey, crossed the floor 11 times to side with Labor and Green amendments to the bill that at the same time removed the requirement for surgery for a gender change under law (a stat dec will be required), made declaring a baby's gender on its birth certificate optional and added extensive protection for gender identity to the state Anti-Discrimination Act. The legislation now goes to the Upper House, the Government having been forced to vote against its own Bill because of the scale of the amendments.

Hickey has flagged she wants to make a difference on other issues so the Government has a serious problem.

About removing divorce requirements exactly what is meant? That a divorce can be just applied for and granted subject to check of documentation including medical evidence? what are the presumptions behind such? Are they saying that it is unfavourable to both parties? are objections to the divorce allowable?

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2018, 02:04 PM
About removing divorce requirements exactly what is meant? That a divorce can be just applied for and granted subject to check of documentation including medical evidence? what are the presumptions behind such? Are they saying that it is unfavourable to both parties? are objections to the divorce allowable?

Previously if a couple were married (meaning that they were registered as being of different genders prior to same-sex marriage) and one of them changed their legally registered gender, then they would have had to divorce as a result of the gender change. This was a situation causing a lot of grief, for instance in families where a married couple had had children but then one of the parents wanted to change gender and the other parent wished to stay with them.

As a result of the passing of same-sex marriage, which made this requirement nonsensical, all states were asked to remove this requirement from their laws.

ElevatorEscapee
22-11-2018, 08:00 PM
For those voting in the Victorian election, please vote below the line for candidates (you only need to number 1-5 minimum, though numbering more will make your vote more powerful) and help stop preference harvesters from making money by wrecking democracy.

This particularly applies to those on the left - if you vote above the line for pretty much anyone, especially Labor or the Greens, your preference could end up with a right-wing and/or crackpot party.

https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2018/11/fear-and-loathing-with-victorian-upper.html
Fear And Loathing With Victorian Upper House Preference Flows

For some years I've been of the belief that it is anti-democratic for another entity to assign someone's preference votes (which occurs when people vote above the line).

In the past people only had the choice of voting once above the line, or numbering ALL the squares below the line. It might once have been seen as laziness to vote above the line, but as more and more options are added, it became more and more difficult for the average voter to vote below the line. (Gee, I don't know whether to put the Vegetable Justice Party at 53 and the Guinea Pig Owners, Plumbers and Shooters Party at 54 or the other way around...).
This appears to have become a vicious circle, with more and more micro-parties being added to the ballot paper, encouraged by "preference whisperers", causing more voters to vote above the line.

My personal hope is that this reform is adopted across all state and federal elections, with the ultimate goal to abolish the line altogether.

I would also like to see a reform to lower house elections, where voters aren't required to number all candidates.

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2018, 08:15 PM
I would also like to see a reform to lower house elections, where voters aren't required to number all candidates.

I would like to see this too. Or at the very least bring in savings provisions for cases where voters make errors. There are very high informal voting rates in some seats because of this.

ER
24-11-2018, 05:10 PM
State election day here in Victoria today... and I woke up (really did so) early to go and cast my vote...
Was at the old and beautiful school where the booths are!
7:55 AM, cold and rainy day - summer time 13C give me a break still lots of Melburnians were there to exercise their democratic duties starting at 8:00 AM

3696

No problems in making my decision today.
First I went for personality. Ogy Simic came to Australia from the war torn Sarajevo in 1998 with his mum and siblings as war refugees.
Hard working family survived the harsh housing commission conditions, mum never missing one day's work and the kids never missing one day of state school, high school, university, post graduate studies.
I am not a Greenie, but knowing that Ogy as a volunteer did so much work for the people and community of Port Phillip to fit in ten times that of the established politicians of the area the choice wasn't really hard.
He's a good kid I like him.
2) Policies and Programs: Emphasis on environment, improvement of old and in collaboration with the council establishing new public facilities,
early education, health. Sound and safe.
So Greenies it was this time!
3697

In the picture Ogy and myself earlier this morning outside the polling booth.

ElevatorEscapee
24-11-2018, 06:54 PM
I wanted to log in and suggest it looked like a potential landslide to Labour, when they had 41 seats... in the 20 odd minutes it's taken me to log in, they are now showing 54 seats...

Ian Murray
24-11-2018, 07:39 PM
What a rout!

MichaelBaron
24-11-2018, 07:46 PM
God bless postal votes :).
Does save plenty of time.

ElevatorEscapee
24-11-2018, 07:50 PM
Now showing Labour 57, Lib/Nat 21, Green 1, Other 1,... In doubt 8.

The polls suggested this would be a tight election - another time in recent history that the polls have got it wrong.

Digger Dan looks to have won, one wonders if he can deliver on his promises.

antichrist
24-11-2018, 08:52 PM
God bless postal votes :).
Does save plenty of time.

But in USA Trump had a few disasters after postals were already posted so too late

Patrick Byrom
24-11-2018, 10:02 PM
What a rout!It seems most Victorians aren't too worried about crime or 'Sudanese gangs'.

ElevatorEscapee
24-11-2018, 10:25 PM
It seems most Victorians aren't too worried about crime or 'Sudanese gangs'.

Or maybe they just don't have their finger on the Dutton.. :P

MichaelBaron
25-11-2018, 01:41 AM
As always, Labor were full of promises. Lets see what they deliver this time :)

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2018, 03:41 AM
Coalition came back on prepolls so it's not going to be quite the smashing it looked. Still pretty devastating though with a bunch of seats the Coalition never expected to lose.

Ian Murray
25-11-2018, 07:15 AM
As always, Labor were full of promises.

As were the Coalition, but the wrong promises. Mandatory sentencing, a coal-fired power station? 19th century promises in the 21st!

For the foreseeable future, Victoria is a Labor state.

MichaelBaron
25-11-2018, 11:13 AM
As were the Coalition, but the wrong promises. Mandatory sentencing, a coal-fired power station? 19th century promises in the 21st!

For the foreseeable future, Victoria is a Labor state.

Mandatory sentencing - I do support!

Re elections: This is what I posted on facebook:Labor made some lovely promises during the campaign. If Only there was a slight chance they keep them, I would vote for them...but of course they will not :). On the other hand, Liberals are becoming Socialist as well, so effectively - voters were out of Choices - they were choosing between Socialist Labour that is at least known to be Socialist, Liberals wo are trying to be more Socialist and Greens who have no idea what Economic Policy is (they probably need to google word Economic)...so all in all - unfortunately the Labour Win is Rather Logical!

Patrick Byrom
25-11-2018, 05:24 PM
Re elections: This is what I posted on facebook:Labor made some lovely promises during the campaign. If Only there was a slight chance they keep them, I would vote for them...but of course they will not :). Which policies do you think won't be kept? This list (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/what-andrews-promises-to-do-next-labor-s-key-promises-in-detail-20181123-p50hxg.html) seems fairly easy to deliver.

MichaelBaron
25-11-2018, 06:25 PM
Which policies do you think won't be kept? This list (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/what-andrews-promises-to-do-next-labor-s-key-promises-in-detail-20181123-p50hxg.html) seems fairly easy to deliver.

Increasing sentencing and tightening bail conditions to start with. If they claim ''there are no gangs'' and dismiss some serious crimes as minor, I wonder how they do it.

Patrick Byrom
25-11-2018, 06:34 PM
Increasing sentencing and tightening bail conditions to start with. If they claim ''there are no gangs'' and dismiss some serious crimes as minor, I wonder how they do it.Haven't they already been introduced (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/20/victorian-election-what-the-parties-are-promising):

Labor has introduced reforms to increase sentences, reduce judicial discretion in sentencing, tighten parole and restrict bail – it says the state’s bail laws are the toughest in the country. It is in the process of hiring an extra 3,100 new police officers and plans two new prisons. There are new offences, such as a three-year minimum term for aggravated carjacking and aggravated home invasion, a reaction to gang attacks and home break-ins. It has pledged that two officers will be on counter duty at all times at 24-hour stations, and a minimum number of police available on the road to respond to emergency calls.

MichaelBaron
25-11-2018, 09:27 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1128151517363529&set=gm.903049883152273&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Ian Murray
25-11-2018, 09:29 PM
Labor made some lovely promises during the campaign. If Only there was a slight chance they keep them, I would vote for them...but of course they will not :). On the other hand, Liberals are becoming Socialist as well, so effectively - voters were out of Choices - they were choosing between Socialist Labour that is at least known to be Socialist, Liberals wo are trying to be more Socialist and Greens who have no idea what Economic Policy is (they probably need to google word Economic)...so all in all - unfortunately the Labour Win is Rather Logical!

Here is a summary of each party's promises:
Victorian election: what the parties promised (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/20/victorian-election-what-the-parties-are-promising)

Which, if any, do you believe are socialist? They all seem to concern infrastructure, not production.

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2018, 09:31 PM
https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2018/11/2018-victorian-lower-house-postcount.html

My main postcount and tally board thread with links to various side threads covering seats still in doubt.

MichaelBaron
26-11-2018, 10:59 AM
Here is a summary of each party's promises:
Victorian election: what the parties promised (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/20/victorian-election-what-the-parties-are-promising)

Which, if any, do you believe are socialist? They all seem to concern infrastructure, not production.

Yep, this is the one I was reading too and my favourite bit of the ''Labour promises''

However, human rights organisations have warned that the proposal to extend anti-association laws to children as young as 14 will disproportionately affect non-white children and contribute to the over-representation of Aboriginal young people in the crime statistics. - with the funny part being'' ''over-representation in statistics'' ...is it about statistics...or is it about greater problems?

Re socialist - increasing public housing to start with.

Ian Murray
26-11-2018, 05:57 PM
...my favourite bit of the ''Labour promises''

However, human rights organisations have warned that the proposal to extend anti-association laws to children as young as 14 will disproportionately affect non-white children and contribute to the over-representation of Aboriginal young people in the crime statistics. - with the funny part being'' ''over-representation in statistics'' ...is it about statistics...or is it about greater problems?

Your quote is a criticism of the Labor policy. So you are opposed to the policy?


Re socialist - increasing public housing to start with.

Public housing is not socialism. It's been bipartisan state policy in Australia for over a century

MichaelBaron
26-11-2018, 08:49 PM
Your quote is a criticism of the Labor policy. So you are opposed to the policy?



Public housing is not socialism. It's been bipartisan state policy in Australia for over a century

I am entertained by ''over-representation in statistics'' - the sentence implies that if this is what statistics will tell us...its not good statistics to have. Human organizations warn of statistics that won't look ''right''? :)

Patrick Byrom
26-11-2018, 10:17 PM
Your quote is a criticism of the Labor policy. So you are opposed to the policy?I don't think you can expect a sensible explanation from Michael about his voting choices. He apparently opposes socialism, but voted for the more socialist party, and he criticised Daniel Andrews for not keeping promises when they were already part of legislation.


Public housing is not socialism. It's been bipartisan state policy in Australia for over a centuryEven the Liberal Democrats are in favour (sort of (https://www.ldp.org.au/welfare)):

The Liberal Democrats will abolish large scale public housing (giving first option to purchase properties to occupants), whilst maintaining specific programs for those in high need of temporary housing support such as the homeless, people with impaired physical and mental abilities, victims of violence and people with a criminal record. To manage this change, the Liberal Democrats will retain rent assistance supplements for welfare payment recipients, which are a less discriminatory and bureaucratic form of accommodation assistance.
Capablanca-Fan will be horrified to know that he supports socialism!

MichaelBaron
27-11-2018, 01:42 AM
Public housing is clearly not a ''capitalistic'' feature of a society.

Re my voting...hoping for a new political force emerge that will represent people who work hard and pay for themselves! That would be lovely!

antichrist
27-11-2018, 01:54 AM
Public housing is clearly not a ''capitalistic'' feature of a society.

Re my voting...hoping for a new political force emerge that will represent people who work hard and pay for themselves! That would be lovely!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Australia)
Fifty years ago John Singleton formed the Workers Party - not sure where he had the apostrophe? For people who wanted to work rather than bludge under the Whitlam govt social welfare measures. But never won a seat because the workers did not want to get off their seat - literally and figuratively.

Ian Murray
27-11-2018, 09:04 AM
...Capablanca-Fan will be horrified to know that he supports socialism!

According to Capa, the NZ PM is a communist :)

Ian Murray
27-11-2018, 09:12 AM
Public housing is clearly not a ''capitalistic'' feature of a society.

If something is not clearly capitalist, then it must be socialist? That's a pretty narrow worldview you've got there, Michael.

Ian Murray
27-11-2018, 09:37 AM
I am entertained by ''over-representation in statistics'' - the sentence implies that if this is what statistics will tell us...its not good statistics to have. Human organizations warn of statistics that won't look ''right''? :)

If a cohort represents 2% of the over-18 national population and 27% of the over-18 national prison population, then there is an obvious statistical over-representation in the prison population.

Human rights organisations question the higher rate of custodial sentences compared with the majority of the population.

MichaelBaron
27-11-2018, 10:19 AM
If a cohort represents 2% of the over-18 national population and 27% of the over-18 national prison population, then there is an obvious statistical over-representation in the prison population.

Human rights organisations question the higher rate of custodial sentences compared with the majority of the population.

My point is that the statistic would reveal a problem ..and once revealed - would have to be addressed(hopefully).

MichaelBaron
27-11-2018, 10:23 AM
If something is not clearly capitalist, then it must be socialist? That's a pretty narrow worldview you've got there, Michael.

Obviously we are not talking about socialism in pure shape and form but it has been a feature at all Socialist countries.
I wonder, out of those who move into public housing ..how many regard it as temporary accommodation and plan/want to move out later on in life?

Desmond
27-11-2018, 10:27 AM
If something is not clearly capitalist, then it must be socialist? That's a pretty narrow worldview you've got there, Michael.

Not to mention hypocritical, since Michael is a fan of another form of subsidized housing - negative gearing. It's just that in that case it's the rich getting subsidized.

Ian Murray
27-11-2018, 12:04 PM
Obviously we are not talking about socialism in pure shape and form but it has been a feature at all Socialist countries.

And a feature of all other developed countries, e.g. USA


I wonder, out of those who move into public housing ..how many regard it as temporary accommodation and plan/want to move out later on in life?

In this case, you will die wondering - there is no answer

Ian Murray
27-11-2018, 12:15 PM
My point is that the statistic would reveal a problem ..and once revealed - would have to be addressed(hopefully).

Which it is

Ian Murray
27-11-2018, 12:18 PM
Re my voting...hoping for a new political force emerge that will represent people who work hard and pay for themselves! That would be lovely!

You wouldn't want a government that didn't represent all the people, would you? Just a splinter party, like the Fishers and Shooters?

Ian Murray
27-11-2018, 07:56 PM
Labor makes history with first cabinet that is 50 per cent women (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/labor-makes-history-with-first-cabinet-that-is-50-per-cent-women-20181127-p50ioa.html?fbclid=IwAR3WTIKq8J5fj_tXIdwrFRNXHbyj7 yuzv0ITDi_6D6-WcBiAAuXrCj2ZxpU)
The Age
27.11.18

..."Today my colleagues have delivered something that has never been achieved in the history of our state – 50 per cent of cabinet are women," Mr Andrews said on Tuesday.

"There is an equality agenda in our state's most important decision-making body."

Queensland became the first Australian state to achieve a gender equal cabinet when Annastacia Palaszczuk's Labor government was sworn in for its second term in December.

The make-up of Labor's new cabinet – 11 men and 11 women – stands in stark contrast to the defeated Liberals, whose number includes just three female MPs among its 18 members confirmed in the new parliament....

antichrist
28-11-2018, 06:30 AM
I wonder if Pauline Hanson was the first female leader of an Australian political party? I would have preferred Alf Garnett's missus.

MichaelBaron
28-11-2018, 10:12 AM
You wouldn't want a government that didn't represent all the people, would you? Just a splinter party, like the Fishers and Shooters?

I would not want people who vote for politicians like Hanson either :).
First of all, unfortunately the truth is - every country/state/leader it deserves. So Australia is certainly doing better than some other countries I can think of (e.g. Russia) . Would I want government that does not represent majority? Actually if it would be possible to have ''selective democracy'' I would want it :). but again - possibility of this happening is hypothetical.


Think about several Fide elections we witnessed: Russia and USA getting 1 vote each and so does Nauru :)

Kevin Bonham
28-11-2018, 10:43 AM
I wonder if Pauline Hanson was the first female leader of an Australian political party?

No, Janine Haines (Aus Democrats leader 1986-1990) was.

antichrist
28-11-2018, 11:22 AM
No, Janine Haines (Aus Democrats leader 1986-1990) was.

Hanson may have been the first female to kick off a political party unless maybe a hundred years ago there were women suffrage parties or fifty years ago abortion reform parties? Or even Joh Bjelke-Petersen's wife some countryside party? Hanson took off after Bruce Whiteside's Australia Independence Party folded - they were going for support in southern Qld and northern NSW around here. Must be close to a Gish Gallop.

Kevin Bonham
28-11-2018, 12:00 PM
Hanson may have been the first female to kick off a political party unless maybe a hundred years ago there were women suffrage parties or fifty years ago abortion reform parties?

Not the first, eg Jo Vallentine formed a party called Vallentine Peace Group in 1986 after resigning from the Nuclear Disarmament Party. There may well be earlier examples.

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2018, 11:58 PM
On current numbers (ignore the ABC calculator for a few days as it is going off rechecked samples only) I have micro-parties getting 10 seats in the Victorian upper house. There are some rather outrageous examples of preference harvesting among them. Actually most of them are like that.

Patrick Byrom
30-11-2018, 10:20 AM
In the meantime in China: https://gineersnow.com/leadership/chinese-government-dominated-scientists-engineers?fbclid=IwAR2Aw_Mt2QX8bCry9gcNked7GMLOw6Z VVBY3lfxe6z***DSDOofI0gBsO5QChina is not a democracy, of course.

At the recent Victorian election, did you select all the candidates purely in order of merit?

MichaelBaron
30-11-2018, 04:29 PM
China is not a democracy, of course.

At the recent Victorian election, did you select all the candidates purely in order of merit?

To be frank I did not like any of the candidates. Voted purely because ..i had to.
Re China not being a democracy...may be being a democracy is not that bad after all :)

Patrick Byrom
02-12-2018, 05:48 PM
To be frank I did not like any of the candidates. Voted purely because ..i had to.]Nobody would know if you decided not to vote for any of the candidates, of course.

MichaelBaron
03-12-2018, 12:29 AM
Nobody would know if you decided not to vote for any of the candidates, of course.

True, but since I have to spend time on casting anyway...(done it via postal). Btw, many of the so called ''developing countries'' have Internet voting already.

Ian Murray
03-12-2018, 07:17 AM
Btw, many of the so called ''developing countries'' have Internet voting already.

Not such a great idea

Online voting is impossible to secure. So why are some governments using it? (https://www.csoonline.com/article/3269297/security/online-voting-is-impossible-to-secure-so-why-are-some-governments-using-it.html)
If you thought electronic voting machines were insecure, wait 'til you meet online voting

Kevin Bonham
03-12-2018, 07:20 AM
This cartoon says it all about online voting:

https://xkcd.com/2030/

iVote in NSW has some serious issues, not least increased ballot order effects caused when people vote on mobile phones.

Tasmanian Electoral Commission was hacked last year, though fortunately this time the hackers "only" stole personal data and not votes.

MichaelBaron
03-12-2018, 11:27 AM
This cartoon says it all about online voting:

https://xkcd.com/2030/

iVote in NSW has some serious issues, not least increased ballot order effects caused when people vote on mobile phones.

Tasmanian Electoral Commission was hacked last year, though fortunately this time the hackers "only" stole personal data and not votes.

This can be addressed by improving the technology used as well as security etc. If online payment can be made secure (or at least 99.9% secure) by banks...why not e-voting?

antichrist
03-12-2018, 12:01 PM
This can be addressed by improving the technology used as well as security etc. If online payment can be made secure (or at least 99.9% secure) by banks...why not e-voting?

Marrioitt hotels revealed yesterday that about 2/3 of their customers credit card details, address etc got hacked. There are just as smart bods trying to hack as trying to protect. The crooks have more incentive.

Kevin Bonham
03-12-2018, 01:16 PM
This can be addressed by improving the technology used as well as security etc. If online payment can be made secure (or at least 99.9% secure) by banks...why not e-voting?

Primarily because voting has to be anonymous, so that it is not possible for anyone to determine who you voted for. Securing a transaction without recording identifying information is much more difficult. Also because when there are mistakes or hacking with online payment (which happens more often than people might think) they are reversible, but retrieving a mis-cast vote and changing it is much more problematic. Also because of server load issues around election times.

Kevin Bonham
03-12-2018, 11:02 PM
Posts moved and some posts deleted

A number of posts from recent prolonged gender debates and lacking any state politics dimension have been moved to two new split threads -

http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?17411-Gender-equity-in-IT-and-other-workplaces-(sf-state-politics)
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?17412-Gender-equity-in-parliaments-and-cabinets-(sf-state-politics)

Some that jumped back into state politics have been kept here.

A few posts, deemed to be so irrelevant to the post they were made in reply to as to be threadjacking rather than thread drift, were also deleted.

Anyone wishing to discuss these decisions may do so in the Help and Feedback section only.

Kevin Bonham
08-12-2018, 05:09 PM
Louise Staley (Lib) has retained Ripon by 15 votes following a recount. She could in theory be challenged in court but in the meantime will be declared winner and seated as the MP.

Kevin Bonham
12-12-2018, 08:17 AM
https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2018/12/group-ticket-voting-wrecks-victorian.html

Group Ticket Voting Wrecks 2018 Victorian Upper House Election

Kevin Bonham
14-12-2018, 12:34 PM
This can be addressed by improving the technology used as well as security etc. If online payment can be made secure (or at least 99.9% secure) by banks...why not e-voting?

Thought I'd quote a full reply to this from an expert submission to a NSW iVote inquiry:


The two have completely different privacy requirements, allowing different
risk mitigation strategies and different opportunities for detecting errors. In
internet voting, the electoral commission is supposed to carefully verify your
eligibility, but not know how you voted.

In internet banking, the first thing that the bank asks you to do is to
verify your identity using a customer number and password: thus they know
exactly who you are. The second thing that happens is that the bank gives
you a receipt to show you how much money you transferred, from which
account, and to whom. Thus you can check and prove that you did such
and such a transaction.

If there is fraud against your account, you will eventually notice (when
you run out of money), even if the bank doesn’t notice immediately. If fraud
or error alters your private vote, there is no immediate way to detect this.
The also have completely different notions of correctness: a bank must
demonstrate to each individual that it has properly accounted for his money;
the electoral commission must demonstrate to scrutineers and the public
that it has properly dealt with all the votes.

Thus, the comparison with internet banking is totally false.
Even given their much easier privacy constraints, banking and electronic
commerce lose a certain amount of money to fraud. This is an acceptable
risk for them, because they save money by putting their services online.
There is no equivalent calculation for elections: a small amount of fraud, or
a reasonable belief that fraud happens, could do tremendous damage.

from https://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/NSWEC/media/NSWEC/Reports/iVote%20reports/Sub01-20171204-Teague-Culnane-Essex-Gore-Halderman.pdf

Kevin Bonham
20-12-2018, 10:42 PM
Jeremy Buckingham, who many members have been trying to force out over sexual harassment accusations, has quit the NSW Greens and will contest the next election as an "independent real green". Two other upper house MPs who threatened to do the same have so far not done so despite their demands not being met.

Kevin Bonham
26-02-2019, 02:22 PM
Veteran MP Rene Hidding has quit parliament suddenly after being accused of historic sex crimes by his sister-in-law. He strongly denies the claims and also various claims associated with them concerning subsequent contact with his accuser.

Hidding's place will be filled on a recount by John Tucker, a farmer and local councillor. However, the recount won't be finished until late on Tuesday 12 March, which is the day parliament is scheduled to return, so there is lots of frantic speculation going on now about whether Labor will grant the Government a pair for the vacancy or not. They have ruled out using their numbers to pass a no-confidence motion (which would not necessarily be effective anyway.)

Kevin Bonham
27-02-2019, 07:08 PM
However, the recount won't be finished until late on Tuesday 12 March, which is the day parliament is scheduled to return, so there is lots of frantic speculation going on now about whether Labor will grant the Government a pair for the vacancy or not. They have ruled out using their numbers to pass a no-confidence motion (which would not necessarily be effective anyway.)

Will Hodgman has decided to prorogue parliament til the 19th rather than go further down this rabbit hole. I think this is Tasmania's first non-regular prorogation since 1981.

MichaelBaron
28-02-2019, 11:46 AM
Jeremy Buckingham, who many members have been trying to force out over sexual harassment accusations, has quit the NSW Greens and will contest the next election as an "independent real green". Two other upper house MPs who threatened to do the same have so far not done so despite their demands not being met.

I am trying to understand what it is like to ''Independent Real Green'' rather than ''Green'' - Greener than the Greens?

Kevin Bonham
28-02-2019, 12:39 PM
I am trying to understand what it is like to ''Independent Real Green'' rather than ''Green'' - Greener than the Greens?

He's implying that the official Greens in NSW are different from the Greens elsewhere and are more socialists than environmentalists.

Desmond
16-03-2019, 11:32 AM
Looking like a pretty tight race in NSW, odds currently slightly favour Coalition (1.87 to 1.95). I actually thought Gladys was a bit on the nose especially with the Transport debacle and stadium money wasting, but maybe not enough people know whatisname.

Adamski
16-03-2019, 02:26 PM
NSW election campaigning suspended today out of respect for those so tragically affected by the deaths through shooting of at least 49 people in Christchurch.

Desmond
16-03-2019, 07:14 PM
NSW election campaigning suspended today out of respect for those so tragically affected by the deaths through shooting of at least 49 people in Christchurch.Apparently Little Johnny didn't get the memo, throwing his weight behind the campaign. Though Gladys may wish he would shut up.

Desmond
23-03-2019, 04:43 PM
Looking like a pretty tight race in NSW, odds currently slightly favour Coalition (1.87 to 1.95). I actually thought Gladys was a bit on the nose especially with the Transport debacle and stadium money wasting, but maybe not enough people know whatisname.A week is a long time in political betting markets, with Coalition extending a presumably wining lead at $1.38 to $3.00. Seems the more people got to know whatisname, the more they liked Gladys.

Patrick Byrom
24-03-2019, 01:20 PM
A week is a long time in political betting markets, with Coalition extending a presumably wining lead at $1.38 to $3.00. Seems the more people got to know whatisname, the more they liked Gladys.I suspect that she just wasn't bad enough to be rejected.

Kevin Bonham
24-03-2019, 06:12 PM
I suspect that she just wasn't bad enough to be rejected.

Voters thought so, her personal approval ratings were OK even if she underwhelmed on the less meaningful "better Premier" scores.

Adamski
25-03-2019, 07:10 PM
Gladys' team won - by a reduced margin but better than I for one expected.

Desmond
26-03-2019, 08:10 AM
I suspect that she just wasn't bad enough to be rejected.

I'm not so sure. It seems to me that Labor was in touch until Daley's shocking last week. He's paid the price for it with the leadership.

Kevin Bonham
26-03-2019, 09:16 AM
The polling had it basically lineball, perhaps with a tiny edge to the Coalition based on their advantage in the distribution of required seat swings, until the final days. There wasn't much polling though; it's possible the Coalition were doing better than that.

Daley is actually standing aside from the leadership while a ballot is organised for after the federal election and at the moment says he's still contesting it. But that's probably a soft step on the path to deciding not to contest it, which I think he'll come under pressure from the federal party to announce sooner rather than later.

Desmond
26-03-2019, 03:59 PM
The polling had it basically lineball, perhaps with a tiny edge to the Coalition based on their advantage in the distribution of required seat swings, until the final days. There wasn't much polling though; it's possible the Coalition were doing better than that.

Daley is actually standing aside from the leadership while a ballot is organised for after the federal election and at the moment says he's still contesting it. But that's probably a soft step on the path to deciding not to contest it, which I think he'll come under pressure from the federal party to announce sooner rather than later.Lock in sooner :)

Michael Daley abandons bid to remain NSW Labor leader (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-26/michael-daley-not-contesting-nsw-labor-leadership/10941948)


Former NSW Opposition Leader Michael Daley has pulled out of the race for the party's leadership, after a disappointing state election result.

Mr Daley yesterday announced he would stand aside, but insisted he would still contest the leadership when a ballot was held after the upcoming federal election.

In a brief statement, the Maroubra MP today announced he made the decision not to contest the leadership after consulting colleagues and his family....

Kevin Bonham
01-04-2019, 09:53 PM
Posts moved

Posts about appearances by neo-Nazis on TV shows have been moved to a new thread.

Capablanca-Fan
09-05-2019, 07:51 AM
Mark Latham unleashes in maiden speech: How did our nation come to this? (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/mark-latham-unleashes-in-maiden-speech-how-did-our-nation-come-to-this/news-story/a432539f6513a9a119bba178acae408f)
ANDREW CLENNELL, NSW POLITICAL EDITOR, Australian, 8 May 2019

New One Nation NSW MP Mark Latham has railed against the Left and political correctness in his maiden speech in the NSW parliament, accusing people of trying to bring down western civilisation through a campaign of “cultural Marxism”.

Mr Latham defended rugby player Israel Folau and said that he would be “moving legislation for the protection of free speech, religious freedom and the privacy rights of workers” in his time in parliament.

He also said he would move legislation allowing nuclear power into NSW and said the federal Opposition spokesman on the environment, Mark Butler, would become the “minister for blackouts” with his pro-renewables approach and compared the push for renewables to a “pagan religion”.

Mr Latham, who with a One Nation colleague and several other crossbenchers will hold the balance of power in the upper house in NSW, said he and others were in the “fight of our lives” to bring back the values of Western civilisation.

“Mr President, I stand with Israel Folau. In his own private time away from his job playing football, he’s a preacher at his community church and naturally, he quotes the Bible,” Mr Latham said.

“I was on Folau’s list of sinners”

“He believes, as millions of people have believed for thousands of years, that sinners go to Hell.

“As per his valid religious faith, he loves the sinner but condemns the sin. Yet for his beliefs, his Christianity, he is not allowed to play rugby, to chase the pigskin around the park.

“How did our State and our nation ever come to this? I was on Folau’s list of sinners, more than once actually.

Kevin Bonham
22-08-2019, 12:16 AM
Popular Tasmanian Labor MP Scott Bacon is quitting for family reasons, which may cause Labor serious trouble because his seat may be taken on countback by former Labor MP Madeleine Ogilvie. Ogilvie was ousted by a within-party push at last year's state election and she had many conflicts within the party, mostly over social issues. (She's not a Shoppie, but has a similar range of Catholic-conservative-but-otherwise-leftwing issues positions to Shoppies.) If Ogilvie is going to win the recount, which isn't completely certain but looks likely provided she runs, Labor can't do anything about it, and Ogilvie may well then sit as an independent.

Ogilvie might then sometimes cancel out Liberal Speaker Sue Hickey's habit of voting against her own party.

Kevin Bonham
11-09-2019, 09:32 PM
Ogilvie won the recount (it was close, 201 votes (51-49)) and is going to announce tonight that she will be sitting as an independent.

Patrick Byrom
16-09-2019, 10:47 PM
Spill motion against NSW Premier Berejiklian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/sep/16/anti-abortion-nsw-liberal-mps-to-move-spill-motion-against-gladys-berejiklian)! Considering she has just won an election, this seems quixotic (to be polite):


Hardline anti-abortion Liberal MPs in New South Wales say they will move a spill motion against the premier, Gladys Berejiklian, over her handling of the abortion decriminalisation bill which is due to be debated in the upper house on Tuesday. The trio, Tanya Davies, the MP for Mulgoa, and legislative council members Matthew Mason-Cox and Lou Amato will back the spill motion, which comes just months after Berejiklian led the party to victory at the election.

It is unlikely the rebel MPs will have enough support for a successful spill motion with most senior Liberals publicly backing the premier, but religious leaders, rightwing MPs and conservative media commentators have mounted a vociferous campaign to derail the legislation ahead of the vote. Opponents claim the bill will allow so-called gender or sex selection and abortion “on demand” up until birth.

Kevin Bonham
17-09-2019, 12:51 PM
The challenge has been ... aborted.

ER
22-09-2019, 05:20 PM
The challenge has been ... aborted.

:D haha good one!

Ian Murray
07-10-2019, 07:33 PM
An interesting read, regarding attempted suppression of peaceful protests

Submission on the Summary Offences and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 2019 (https://www.actionreadyqld.com/s/Action-Ready-Submission-on-the-Summary-Offences-and-Other-Legislation-Amendment-Bill-2019.pdf)
Action Ready
4.10.19

...We are writing to express our deep concern and opposition to The Bill. These laws are politicised,
disproportionate, and overreaching. They aim to silence dissent, and are not consistent with community
expectations or the democratic pillars on which Australia is built. They appear to be a deliberate tact to
demonise protesters desperately calling for action on climate change, and have no evidential basis.
Furthermore, these laws present a departure from the fundamental principles that should guide criminal
law-making such as retribution, denunciation, deterrence and rehabilitation. We would urge the
Committee to reject them...

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2019, 10:30 PM
https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2019/12/voting-patterns-in-tasmanian-house-of.html

Voting Patterns In The Tasmanian House Of Assembly (2014-2019)

We have here a Liberal who votes like an Independent, and an ex-Labor Independent who votes like a Liberal ... strange times in the Tassie lower house.

Kevin Bonham
14-01-2020, 05:01 PM
Tasmanian Premier Will Hodgman is quitting politics. Not sure who his successor will be yet.

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2020, 08:21 PM
Tasmanian Premier Will Hodgman is quitting politics. Not sure who his successor will be yet.

We have a ballot on Monday.

Team Moderate is Treasurer Peter Gutwein and Deputy Premier Jeremy Rockliff. Team Conservative is Infrastructure Minister Michael Ferguson and Attorney-General Elise Archer. There are slightly more conservatives than moderates in the party room so if it breaks ideologically the moderates are toast (but it may not).

Kevin Bonham
25-03-2020, 01:26 AM
https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2020/03/king-of-nothing-for-day-did-terry-mills.html
King Of Nothing For A Day: Did Terry Mills Return As NT Opposition Leader?

Desmond
25-03-2020, 09:22 AM
Seems like the Qld Local Gov election is still on for this Saturday, and AEC is saying you can still be fined if you don't vote.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/council-elections-2020/coronavirus-qld-voting-in-council-elections-still-required/news-story/ede4753b01c27341d04522e319be895d

Kevin Bonham
25-03-2020, 10:22 AM
Seems like the Qld Local Gov election is still on for this Saturday, and AEC is saying you can still be fined if you don't vote.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/council-elections-2020/coronavirus-qld-voting-in-council-elections-still-required/news-story/ede4753b01c27341d04522e319be895d

Yep and the by-elections for Bundamba and Currumbin.

Tasmanian Legislative Council elections scheduled for May 2 are being postponed to May 30 to allow more time to prepare for mostly postal and early voting.

Patrick Byrom
25-03-2020, 01:45 PM
Seems like the Qld Local Gov election is still on for this Saturday, and AEC is saying you can still be fined if you don't vote.
https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/council-elections-2020/coronavirus-qld-voting-in-council-elections-still-required/news-story/ede4753b01c27341d04522e319be895dThis is just as stupid as forcing people to queue at Centrelink. Are they really threatening people over sixty with fines for not voting in an election which most people don't care much about anyway?

Desmond
25-03-2020, 01:57 PM
This is just as stupid as forcing people to queue at Centrelink. Are they really threatening people over sixty with fines for not voting in an election which most people don't care much about anyway?

Yes going to vote is bad enough, what about being there for the whole day? I would have thought anyone working or volunteering seeing the great unwashed pass through by the thousands will be nearly guaranteed infection.

Kevin Bonham
25-03-2020, 04:11 PM
Note: it's the ECQ not the AEC. The AEC typically has no role in state elections, though sometimes it assists state bodies in counting them.

Desmond
28-03-2020, 12:17 PM
Voted this morning, the hall was all but empty. No democracy sausages, or how-to-vote cards on offer.

Garvinator
28-03-2020, 08:31 PM
Voted this morning, the hall was all but empty. No democracy sausages, or how-to-vote cards on offer.
Wow, you got a bonus. No people pestering you with how to vote cards. That seems like a Corona Virus bonus :)

I voted on March 16, wanting to avoid many people lining up to vote as well, for my own health and safety. At the time I voted, there was only one other person in the pre poll place who was voting. Plenty of people though handing out how to vote cards at the pre poll place I was at. And they were not practising social distancing either.

If it takes Corona Virus to get rid of how to vote card holders, I say bring more of it on. Of course, please nobody take that comment seriously about wanting more Corona Virus, but if CV gets rid of how to vote card holders, then at least CV has had one benefit.

Garrett
29-03-2020, 04:41 AM
Voted this morning, the hall was all but empty. No democracy sausages, or how-to-vote cards on offer.

Me too. Voted about 11am at Oxley and walked straight to the front of the line and waited 5 seconds.

There were only two people outside who I didn't look at, but as I was walking away after voting they seemed to be giving directions, so possibly 0 party stooges at the venue.

Unprecedented.

ER
29-03-2020, 11:16 AM
Howie had similar experience in regards to a deserted polling place, highlight being he forgot his pencil at home, so he used one of theirs folded in his shirt as an anti covid-19 precaution!

Kevin Bonham
29-04-2020, 12:51 AM
Some incredible ratings for state Premiers thanks to their handling of coronavirus this week. Mark McGowan polled 89% satisfied 6% dissatisfied which I believe to be the best rating polled by a Premier or Prime Minister in a properly conducted poll by any company in Australia ever. Peter Gutwein polled 84-11 which is possibly second. Detailed comments here for anyone interested:

http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2020/04/newspoll-record-premier-ratings-and.html

Desmond
29-04-2020, 09:12 AM
Some incredible ratings for state Premiers thanks to their handling of coronavirus this week. Mark McGowan polled 89% satisfied 6% dissatisfied which I believe to be the best rating polled by a Premier or Prime Minister in a properly conducted poll by any company in Australia ever. Peter Gutwein polled 84-11 which is possibly second. Detailed comments here for anyone interested:

http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2020/04/newspoll-record-premier-ratings-and.html

I was watching Anastasia's daily press conference yesterday. At the end they take questions, and it seemed like she got some curly ones she didn't appreciate. Couldn't hear the questions due to the mic positioning but the response was pretty clear annoyance, and "I'm doing my best for Qld"-type anwers. Seemed to be coming from a few different reporters.

ER
15-06-2020, 06:06 AM
Shame Labor Party in Victoria for allowing such seedy characters becoming major string pullers
Congratulations to AGE's Nick McKenzie, Sumeyya Ilanbey and Joel Tozer for their brilliant piece of investigative journalism

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/f-k-the-premier-labor-s-secret-tapes-reveal-industrial-scale-stackathon-20200614-p552g2.html?fbclid=IwAR1q3BmNQyFQIeEY5j1BiJwkc9fez 0XP244OLwYTVboCc74JCSuAv4921-k

4214

Kevin Bonham
15-06-2020, 11:04 AM
Somyurek sacked from cabinet, kicked out of PLP and will be recommended for expulsion from the ALP.

I expect this is only the start.

MichaelBaron
15-06-2020, 05:44 PM
Somyurek sacked from cabinet, kicked out of PLP and will be recommended for expulsion from the ALP.

I expect this is only the start.

So Labour Party is supposed to be the ''Common People's Party'' :). The article is very telling.

ER
15-06-2020, 06:20 PM
So Labour Party is supposed to be the ''Common People's Party'' :). The article is very telling.

This slimy rock spider keeps on finding ways to make his abominable presence felt.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-15/milton-orkopoulos-charged-over-historical-sex-offences/12355586

4215

Kevin Bonham
15-06-2020, 06:26 PM
Robin Scott has quit cabinet, Marlene Kairouz is not gone yet but apparently there is another dose of recordings that might finish her off too.

MichaelBaron
15-06-2020, 08:37 PM
This slimy rock spider keeps on finding ways to make his abominable presence felt.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-15/milton-orkopoulos-charged-over-historical-sex-offences/12355586

4215

Child Sex Abuse Offences - hopefully in prison for many years if proven!

ER
15-06-2020, 09:13 PM
Child Sex Abuse Offences - hopefully in prison for many years if proven!

he is already there for previous child sex abuse...

The fresh charges include five counts of aggravated sexual assault and three counts of causing a child to participate in child prostitution.

The convicted paedophile spent 11 years in prison for child sex offences.

Orkopoulos, who served as Aboriginal affairs minister under former premier Morris Iemma, was released on parole last year.

Maybe he also fits the model for the criminals laughing at us thread?

However, he was put back behind bars after allegedly breaching his parole.

antichrist
15-06-2020, 09:39 PM
he is already there for previous child sex abuse...

The fresh charges include five counts of aggravated sexual assault and three counts of causing a child to participate in child prostitution.

The convicted paedophile spent 11 years in prison for child sex offences.

Orkopoulos, who served as Aboriginal affairs minister under former premier Morris Iemma, was released on parole last year.

Maybe he also fits the model for the criminals laughing at us thread?

However, he was put back behind bars after allegedly breaching his parole.

I thought his lawyers at the time of previous convictions would have advised him to admit any other crimes so as to work off all sentences simultaneously.

MichaelBaron
16-06-2020, 10:02 AM
he is already there for previous child sex abuse...

The fresh charges include five counts of aggravated sexual assault and three counts of causing a child to participate in child prostitution.

The convicted paedophile spent 11 years in prison for child sex offences.

Orkopoulos, who served as Aboriginal affairs minister under former premier Morris Iemma, was released on parole last year.

Maybe he also fits the model for the criminals laughing at us thread?

However, he was put back behind bars after allegedly breaching his parole.

Aboriginal Affairs.....fighting for Indigenous Rights.... I can imagine. I did not know Child sex offenders were available for parole

Kevin Bonham
16-06-2020, 01:52 PM
Robin Scott has quit cabinet, Marlene Kairouz is not gone yet but apparently there is another dose of recordings that might finish her off too.

Yep she's gone now and Somyurek is permanently banned from the ALP.

It looks like the recordings were an inside job by one of Anthony Byrne's staffers, either with or without his knowledge. If Byrne knew then it's effectively an intra-factional hit as Byrne was previously a close buddy of Somyurek, Scott and Kairouz.

antichrist
16-06-2020, 02:20 PM
Aboriginal Affairs.....fighting for Indigenous Rights.... I can imagine. I did not know Child sex offenders were available for parole

Yes with ankle braces GPS or similar and other great restrictions. Surely you are aware of such as years old.

Kevin Bonham
17-06-2020, 12:29 AM
Vic Labor to be placed in administration and all preselections for the next few years will be conducted by national executive. Complete overhaul of membership and switching to an online member system.

Necessary. I greatly doubt the rottenness was confined to Somyurek's mob, he just annoyed too many people and got caught. Vic Labor has to now make sure that over the next several years it does not go the way of NSW Labor.

ER
17-06-2020, 03:43 AM
Vic Labor to be placed in administration and all preselections for the next few years will be conducted by national executive. Complete overhaul of membership and switching to an online member system.

harsh but absolutely necessary!


Necessary. I greatly doubt the rottenness was confined to Somyurek's mob, he just annoyed too many people and got caught. Vic Labor has to now make sure that over the next several years it does not go the way of NSW Labor.

Exactly!

ER
17-06-2020, 04:11 AM
also ...

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/melbourne/alp-reform-looms-after-kairouz-quits-over-branch-stacking-revelations/ar-BB15x186?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

as you indicated in previous post.


Marlene Kairouz is not gone yet but apparently there is another dose of recordings that might finish her off too.

Excellent, objective and thorough political analysis in reference to a very sensitive and serious political matter! Keep up the good work.

ER
28-06-2020, 10:51 AM
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/senior-labor-mps-demand-shaoquett-moselmane-leave-parliament-immediately-20200627-p556tt.html
latest from SMH

Ian Murray
13-07-2020, 07:27 PM
Victoria to set up Australia's first truth and justice commission to recognise wrongs against Aboriginal people (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jul/11/victoria-to-set-up-australias-first-truth-telling-commission-led-by-first-peoples-assembly?fbclid=IwAR3IQNZ6wte1jvfYxrUKDbBnV3i55ZZn AKMlwaIze-NhtFW5QLLMbdaXFp8)

Victoria will set up a truth and justice process to “formally recognise historical wrongs and ongoing injustices” against Aboriginal people, the first state or territory to undertake such a commission.

The process will work in parallel with the treaty process currently under way, and will be designed and led by the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria. ...

Truth and justice processes have been established in countries such as South Africa, Canada and New Zealand, uncovering and acknowledging past human rights violations and ongoing injustices towards First Peoples, Williams said.

“There is nothing more powerful than the truth,” Williams said. “Because with honesty comes healing. It’s going to take courage from all sides to uncover the truths of our past and understand ongoing impacts – establishing this process brings us one step closer to genuine reconciliation.

“We owe it to Aboriginal Victorians to be frank and honest about the injustices they have faced – and continue to face. This will help us to address these injustices and build a stronger Victoria on a foundation of trust.”

Kevin Bonham
27-07-2020, 01:30 PM
Looks like Felix Ellis (1661??) will be bringing much-needed chess strength to the Tasmanian Parliament, as Braddon MP Joan Rylah has quit and Ellis is certain to win the recount, which he is contesting.

MichaelBaron
27-07-2020, 01:57 PM
Looks like Felix Ellis (1661??) will be bringing much-needed chess strength to the Tasmanian Parliament, as Braddon MP Joan Rylah has quit and Ellis is certain to win the recount, which he is contesting.

Wow, by Tassie Standards - he is one of the 10 strongest players in the state (I think only 2 players Kevin and Ian are around 1900 and others are weaker). Great to have chess players involved in politics.

Kevin Bonham
27-07-2020, 02:25 PM
Wow, by Tassie Standards - he is one of the 10 strongest players in the state (I think only 2 players Kevin and Ian are around 1900 and others are weaker). Great to have chess players involved in politics.

He was in the top ten in 2016-7 peaking at #7 but has fallen off it as he is no longer on the active list; I think he last played in 2016. I've played in the same event as him but never played him, not even in a casual game.

idledim
27-07-2020, 02:59 PM
He was in the top ten in 2016-7 peaking at #7 but has fallen off it as he is no longer on the active list; I think he last played in 2016. I've played in the same event as him but never played him, not even in a casual game.

Felix joined the Devonport Chess Club in late 2014 and was a member for most of 2015. He finished 2nd.= (with Patrick Grace) in the 2015 Club Championship, just behind me and ahead of James Peirce and David Hughes.

As a student (Hale School in Perth), he was a member of the 2006 and 2007 W.A. Schools debating teams and a member of the Hale chess team. I remember saying to my government school boys as we left Hale one afternoon (having just defeated that team 4-0):

'It doesn't seem fair. Those boys pay $25K a year for the privilege of losing 4 zip to you lot - and there's not a decent haircut to be found on any of you...'

I wish Felix all the best - even if he did once request a postponement - and then not show up at the re-scheduled time!

Ian Rout
27-07-2020, 03:03 PM
Looks like Felix Ellis (1661??) will be bringing much-needed chess strength to the Tasmanian Parliament, as Braddon MP Joan Rylah has quit and Ellis is certain to win the recount, which he is contesting.
A circumstance forecast on this very forum (albeit via a slightly different scenario):

http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?8382-Australian-state-politics-and-elections-thread&p=432354&viewfull=1#post432354


He was in the top ten in 2016-7 peaking at #7 but has fallen off it as he is no longer on the active list; I think he last played in 2016. I've played in the same event as him but never played him, not even in a casual game.I played him only once that I recall, in some sort or rapid, with the game drawn. Denis has probably played a few games.

Kevin Bonham
05-08-2020, 12:23 AM
In Tasmania's two Legislative Council seat elections on the weekend, Labor won Huon for the first time since 1942, taking it from the conservative independent incumbent. The Liberals appear to have taken Rosevears which was vacated by a left-wing independent, though their win isn't quite nailed down yet. Net impact on the balance seems to be zero, but for the first time ever it looks like the majority of Legislative Councillors will be party-endorsed candidates. Should the expected results transpire the chamber will be 5 Labor, 3 Liberal, 7 independent (with the independents being 4 lefties, 2 slightly right of centre, and one very conservative).

Capablanca-Fan
18-08-2020, 03:43 AM
Vic Police forced to smash car windows over non-compliance (https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6177862528001)
SkyNews, 4 Aug 2020

Police have been forced into the extraordinary measure of smashing car windows to get Victorians to comply with second wave COVID-19 restrictions in Victoria.

“On at least three or four occasions in the past week we’ve had to smash the windows of people in cars and pull them out of there so they could provide us their details because they weren’t telling us where they were going, they weren’t adhering to the chief health officer guidelines, they weren’t providing their name and their address,” Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Shane Patton said.

Lana Murphy (https://twitter.com/LanaMurphy/status/1294771755525890048)
@LanaMurphy


Aug 15
Police have been forced to shoot through a 64YO driver’s window after he drove at them at an Altona Meadows servo. It was 1.20am & officers asked him to stop so they could question why he was out after curfew. He’s now in hospital (medical cond) under guard
@9NewsMelb


What else will this Gestapo be ‘forced’ to do besides smashing windows and shooting motorists, who are not spreading viruses while windows are closed? Dragging people to gulags or gas chambers? Another reason for Americans never to surrender their guns, which the American Founding Fathers recognized was a means to resist government tyranny.

antichrist
18-08-2020, 06:40 AM
Vic Police forced to smash car windows over non-compliance (https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6177862528001)
SkyNews, 4 Aug 2020

Police have been forced into the extraordinary measure of smashing car windows to get Victorians to comply with second wave COVID-19 restrictions in Victoria.

“On at least three or four occasions in the past week we’ve had to smash the windows of people in cars and pull them out of there so they could provide us their details because they weren’t telling us where they were going, they weren’t adhering to the chief health officer guidelines, they weren’t providing their name and their address,” Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Shane Patton said.

Lana Murphy (https://twitter.com/LanaMurphy/status/1294771755525890048)
@LanaMurphy


Aug 15
Police have been forced to shoot through a 64YO driver’s window after he drove at them at an Altona Meadows servo. It was 1.20am & officers asked him to stop so they could question why he was out after curfew. He’s now in hospital (medical cond) under guard
@9NewsMelb


What else will this Gestapo be ‘forced’ to do besides smashing windows and shooting motorists, who are not spreading viruses while windows are closed? Dragging people to gulags or gas chambers? Another reason for Americans never to surrender their guns, which the American Founding Fathers recognized was a means to resist government tyranny.

Now Capa I even had Qld pass on display yet still pulled over at 3am and checked ID etc that's okay stretch the legs and refresh.

Would you back those 2 teenagers whose severely broke guidelines to get into Qld and even spread the virus to your Logan hometown? Throughout aged care homes where you.may have had relos. That is why we need parliaments and cops.

Kevin Bonham
26-08-2020, 11:23 PM
Debut speech by Felix Ellis MP (chessplayer) is receiving much praise (especially as a refreshing change from some of the rubbish in the Tasmanian parliament these last two weeks.)

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=333305984478337&ref=watch_permalink

Frank
27-08-2020, 01:14 AM
Debut speech by Felix Ellis MP (chessplayer) is receiving much praise (especially as a refreshing change from some of the rubbish in the Tasmanian parliament these last two weeks.)

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=333305984478337&ref=watch_permalink

A head-clearing inaugural blast from the heart for the young representative for Braddon and a real pick-me-up after overindulging in some Republican National Convention set speeches.

Kevin Bonham
08-09-2020, 10:03 PM
Crazy stuff in both houses of SA Parliament today, all triggered by resignations and reshuffling following the allowance rorts saga:

Lower House: Initial vote for Speaker tied 23-23 with one informal, on a revote government candidate elected 25-22. New Speaker then gives an address from the chair basically accusing the Opposition Leader of interfering with ICAC processes, and when the Opposition objects he kicks one of them out after less than 15 minutes in the chair. Government then tries to suspend standing orders to discuss the matter further but fails because it doesn't have an absolute floor majority since Sam Duluk was kicked out.

Upper House: Vote for new President tied 11-11, then tied 11-11 again, then John Dawkins wins by random draw after running against his own party's candidate; now he's being asked to show cause why he shouldn't be expelled from the parliamentary Liberal Party.

Kevin Bonham
20-09-2020, 08:29 AM
My first article for The Guardian (one-off commission, not a regular gig), re upcoming Queensland election:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/20/queensland-2020-elections-will-be-a-test-of-states-covid-response

ER
20-09-2020, 01:09 PM
My first article for The Guardian (one-off commission, not a regular gig), re upcoming Queensland election:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/20/queensland-2020-elections-will-be-a-test-of-states-covid-response

A sound well balanced article. Not one point made is not supported by strong statistical, historical and current political evidence.
Of great interest the reference to disconnection between the leader's and the party's percentage support, not infrequently present in both State and Fed politics;
maybe not a minor factor of unpredictability in projections/predictions of electoral results.

antichrist
20-09-2020, 01:19 PM
My first article for The Guardian (one-off commission, not a regular gig), re upcoming Queensland election:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/20/queensland-2020-elections-will-be-a-test-of-states-covid-response

Your formal title was not used.

Patrick Byrom
20-09-2020, 05:56 PM
My first article for The Guardian (one-off commission, not a regular gig), re upcoming Queensland election:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/20/queensland-2020-elections-will-be-a-test-of-states-covid-responseI almost missed this, because I confused it with this very recent article having a very similar name (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/19/can-annastacia-palaszczuk-hold-on-to-fortress-queensland-in-the-covid-election)!

I only have a couple of quibbles. Firstly, while Palaszczuk’s government is only five years old, Labor has effectively been in power in Qld for about 30 years, with only a couple of short interregnums. So tiredness with Labor may be a more important factor than you suggested. And you've completely ignored Clive Palmer!

I'm looking forward to more articles from you in The Guardian.

Ian Murray
20-09-2020, 06:02 PM
My first article for The Guardian (one-off commission, not a regular gig), re upcoming Queensland election:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/20/queensland-2020-elections-will-be-a-test-of-states-covid-response

I gave you a good review :)

Kevin Bonham
20-09-2020, 06:05 PM
I almost missed this, because I confused it with this very recent article having a very similar name (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/19/can-annastacia-palaszczuk-hold-on-to-fortress-queensland-in-the-covid-election)!

I only have a couple of quibbles. Firstly, while Palaszczuk’s government is only five years old, Labor has effectively been in power in Qld for about 30 years, with only a couple of short interregnums. So tiredness with Labor may be a more important factor than you suggested. And you've completely ignored Clive Palmer!

Yes I thought about giving Clive a mention but I was over my word target anyway and they didn't ask me for any Clive content after reviewing my draft, possibly because Ben Smee had covered it in his article. I thought Ben Smee's article was very good.

My view is the UAP will not win seats and their preferences probably won't decide many seats if any. However that's not what they're in it for; they're aiming to spend a bucketload and damage Labor.

Kevin Bonham
22-09-2020, 10:40 AM
http://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2020/09/newspoll-sound-of-narratives-dying.html
Newspoll: The Sound Of Narratives Dying

My coverage of recent state and federal polls including the surprisingly good result for Daniel Andrews overnight.

Patrick Byrom
22-09-2020, 02:08 PM
Labor...impossible till 2022 unfortunately. Andrews (who never had a job in his life before becoming a politician) - lets see if he lasts beyond this year. ... Some more details from the polling Kevin referred to:


The poll for The Australian shows 62 per cent of Victorian voters agree the premier has managed the crisis well, despite a hotel quarantine bungle that unleashed a second wave of the virus. Some 35 per cent of Victorians thought Mr Andrews handled the pandemic badly, according to the poll published on Tuesday.

Asked how Mr Andrews was handling his job, 62 per cent of voters were satistifed and 35 per cent were dissatisfied for a net satisfaction score of 27 per cent.

antichrist
24-09-2020, 09:22 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/minister-agrees-paying-30m-for-western-sydney-airport-land-worth-3m-was-unethical/ar-BB19ktYr?ocid=msedgntp

Pay about ten times excessive of land valaution - now the Libs turn.

ER
13-10-2020, 09:15 AM
I thought some politicians and media should know that we have already passed 19th century mentality and ethics!

4603

Full story here:

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/sydney/without-doubt-the-best-leader-berejiklian-s-team-rally-support/ar-BB19X3r5?ocid=msedgdhp

Source: Nine News earlier this morning 13-10-20

ER
13-10-2020, 09:27 AM
I thought some politicians and media should know that we have already passed 19th century mentality and ethics!

4603

Full story here:

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/sydney/without-doubt-the-best-leader-berejiklian-s-team-rally-support/ar-BB19X3r5?ocid=msedgdhp

Source: Nine News earlier this morning 13-10-20

Good to see all those messages of support!
Such a nice lady and chess supporter being present and addressing participants and officials
at Norths during the Australian Champs opening ceremony!

Ian Murray
14-10-2020, 04:03 PM
Good to see all those messages of support!
Such a nice lady and chess supporter being present and addressing participants and officials
at Norths during the Australian Champs opening ceremony!

She's a dead duck

ER
14-10-2020, 06:16 PM
She's a dead duck

Now say, was that wishful thinking or the party line?? :D

Back to reality now

4605

Full story here ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-14/gladys-berejiklian-survives-motion-as-maguire-fronts-icac/12766832

Source: ABC News earlier today (14-10-20_

Kevin Bonham
14-10-2020, 06:34 PM
The claim that Berejiklian "survived" the no-confidence motion in the Upper House, which has been made by a few media sources, is technically incorrect. A motion of no confidence passed by the upper house in an Australian parliament is symbolic and has no effect. So had it been passed, she would not have been forced to resign, though it would have caused extra embarrassment. Indeed even when a motion of no confidence passes the lower house, that is not always the end. A Premier who is the subject of a successful no confidence motion could advise a Governor that they have a realistic pathway to regaining confidence and wish to be left in office while they attempt to recover it. A Governor might reject that advice and dismiss them if it lacked credibility.

A bigger problem might be if the Shooters and One Nation go through on their threat to block government legislation unless she resigns, as this would leave the government very few avenues for passing controversial legislation. This is not necessarily fatal either (eg Tasmania has a left-majority upper house but the Liberal government in the lower house is popular) but would create an incentive to dump her as Premier.

ER
14-10-2020, 06:46 PM
So do you agree or disagree with the

She's a dead duck claim?
I don't

Garvinator
14-10-2020, 08:06 PM
I think it is a sad reflection on Australian politics where one Premier resigned over forgetting about a bottle of wine (O'Farrell) and another is struggling to stay as Premier (Berejiklian) because of some dubious connections, but the one Premier whose decisions caused the deaths of 800 + people is seemingly going to skate through 'unharmed'.

Whilst some people may not be supporters of Peta Credlin, it is a sad reflection on the Counsel Assisting the Hotel Quarantine Inquiry and journalists that it has only taken her two days of questioning Daniel Andrews at his 'daily' press conferences to start asking the hard questions and we have now seen the resignations of two people involved in the Hotel Quarantine fiasco.

It is no wonder why there is some questioning beginning on who the Counsel Assisting were really assisting? Was it the Inquiry to get to the truth, or were they doing the least they could to help assist Premier Daniel Andrews?

Whilst this next comment could almost be regarded as similar as using twitter to gauge what is the correct thing to do, back two months or so ago, my Facebook page was regularly filled with those in Melbourne saying that Dan's the Man, we support Dan and he is doing the right thing for the State.

I am not seeing any more of those posts at all.

Kevin Bonham
14-10-2020, 08:37 PM
So do you agree or disagree with the
claim?
I don't

It might be right but I think it's still too soon to know. One poll today showed strong majorities of voters thinking she had done nothing wrong and should not resign, and also had the Coalition eight points ahead on the primary vote (basically the same as the last election). The detail of Labor's argument as to why she should go is either not getting through to voters yet or they are not accepting it.

Kevin Bonham
14-10-2020, 08:39 PM
Whilst this next comment could almost be regarded as similar as using twitter to gauge what is the correct thing to do, back two months or so ago, my Facebook page was regularly filled with those in Melbourne saying that Dan's the Man, we support Dan and he is doing the right thing for the State.

I am not seeing any more of those posts at all.

Plenty of those still on Twitter, unfortunately.

Labor has the worst social media fans of any party with the possible exception of Sustainable Australia.

antichrist
15-10-2020, 06:56 AM
She should not have continued the naughty stuff once he was exposed. They cannot be seen to be whispering sweet nothings or somethings. Arm's length only.

Ian Murray
15-10-2020, 10:43 AM
She should not have continued the naughty stuff once he was exposed. They cannot be seen to be whispering sweet nothings or somethings. Arm's length only.

She lied to ICAC. That will have consequences

antichrist
15-10-2020, 12:18 PM
She lied to ICAC. That will have consequences

Off with her head.

ER
15-10-2020, 12:21 PM
one Premier resigned over forgetting about a bottle of wine (O'Farrell)
whoa, c'mon buddy, wasn't any bottle of wine - the "pass da flagon" quality down South Brisbane way.
Add a price to it please, was it like a $2500, $3000 collectors' item or what? :D :P

ER
15-10-2020, 12:30 PM
She lied to ICAC. That will have consequences

oh is the party line softening down now (compared to the stupid "dead duck" statement?