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Miguel
27-12-2007, 11:43 AM
Yesterday, at the Australian Allegro Championship, one of the games ended in a double flag fall. Because digital clocks were used, it was possible to determine which flag fell first, so the player with the flashing minus sign was declared the loser. (The decision was presumably made in accordance with Article 6.12.) However, I thought the game should have been declared a draw, and a later check of Article B9 under the rapidplay rules confirmed this. Does Article B9 only apply to analog clocks, or does it also apply to digital clocks even though there is clear evidence as to which flag fell first?

(Sorry, I was using the outdated rules from Fritz. I've now changed 6.11 to 6.12, and B8 to B9.)

6.12 If both flags have fallen and it is impossible to establish which flag fell first, then

the game shall continue if it happens in any period of the game except the last period.
the game is drawn in case it happens in the period of a game, in which all remaining moves must be completed.

B9. If both flags have fallen, the game is drawn.

Rincewind
27-12-2007, 12:00 PM
Yesterday, at the Australian Allegro Championship, one of the games ended in a double flag fall. Because digital clocks were used, it was possible to determine which flag fell first, so the player with the flashing minus sign was declared the loser. (The decision was presumably made in accordance with Article 6.12.) However, I thought the game should have been declared a draw, and a later check of Article B9 under the rapidplay rules confirmed this. Does Article B8 only apply to analog clocks, or does it also apply to digital clocks even though there is clear evidence as to which flag fell first?

Certainly B9 applies for digital clocks and to make a valid claim on time you must stop the clock with time still on your clock. By B7, the flag is not considered to have fallen until a valid claim is made to that effect so the opponent cannot appeal to a "flag fell first" argument even if the clock indicates the order that time ran out.

Ian Rout
27-12-2007, 02:33 PM
Certainly B9 applies for digital clocks and to make a valid claim on time you must stop the clock with time still on your clock. By B7, the flag is not considered to have fallen until a valid claim is made to that effect so the opponent cannot appeal to a "flag fell first" argument even if the clock indicates the order that time ran out.
I agree with this. The mere fact that you can determine which clock expired first does not over-ride the rules. You could also determine which flag fell first by the arbiter watching, witness statements, video replay etc but that doesn't change the rules, it's just a talking point.

Bill Gletsos
27-12-2007, 03:10 PM
Yesterday, at the Australian Allegro Championship, one of the games ended in a double flag fall. Because digital clocks were used, it was possible to determine which flag fell first, so the player with the flashing minus sign was declared the loser. (The decision was presumably made in accordance with Article 6.12.) However, I thought the game should have been declared a draw, and a later check of Article B9 under the rapidplay rules confirmed this. Does Article B9 only apply to analog clocks, or does it also apply to digital clocks even though there is clear evidence as to which flag fell first?

(Sorry, I was using the outdated rules from Fritz. I've now changed 6.11 to 6.12, and B8 to B9.)In rapid events (as well as blitz) B9 applies and if both flags have fallen which fell first is immaterial.

Whether the clock is analog or digital does not matter and the arbiters decsion was clearly wrong.

Miguel
27-12-2007, 03:34 PM
Thanks for the replies. I'll keep this in mind if it happens again. (Luckily it wasn't my game! :D)