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Basil
03-11-2007, 02:33 PM
Question:
Does the player with the black pieces get to elect which side of the board the clock is placed?

Answer:
Yes.

--------------------------------------

Other answer : No :eek:

Andrew Robinson, president of The Gap Chess Club, was arbiter of The Flood Cup earlier this year and was confronted with this very issue when the player of the black pieces (late to the game) upon arrival at the board noticed that the clock was on his less favoured side.

The (black) player requested the clock be moved.

Robinson consulted The FIDE Laws of Chess (2005) and he found:

COMPETITION RULES
Article 6: The chess clock
~
6.4 Before the start of the game the arbiter decides where the chess clock is placed.

Finding nothing else to the contrary or that which should be read in conjunction, he ruled that the clock should remain.

Apparently, the idea that 'the player with the black pieces decides on which side of the board the clock should be located' is mere custom / convention. Opinions?

The Gap Chess Club's reference to this event is found here (http://www.geocities.com/thegapchessclub2/news2007/news289.html)

Aaron Guthrie
03-11-2007, 02:44 PM
What is the question asking? It is a fairly clear rule (and one that I already knew about), so are you asking if we like it or not?

Also, in response to the thread title "more clocks - which side?", I say yes, at least three per room, on the left side of the room (left of wherever I happen to be, of course).

Basil
03-11-2007, 02:49 PM
What is the question asking?
I have changed the title of the thread. It was ambiguous.


It is a fairly clear rule (and one that I already knew about), so are you asking if we like it or not?
Brilliant! What I thought was (an all but) universal misapprehension is met in its first post by someone who wasn't misapprehended. That's just GR8! :D

road runner
03-11-2007, 03:02 PM
I believe Andrew's decision was the correct one. I found the whole scene pretty funny and it couldn't have happened to a nicer fellow! :lol:

Aaron Guthrie
03-11-2007, 03:05 PM
Brilliant! What I thought was (an all but) universal misapprehension is met in its first post by someone who wasn't misapprehended. That's just GR8! :DMaybe I should have asked who was making the clock move request. ;)

The reason I am aware of it is that I have heard enough announcements from the arbiter about this issue, which suggests that it isn't known universally.

Rincewind
03-11-2007, 03:34 PM
Andrew Robinson, president of The Gap Chess Club, was arbiter of The Flood Cup earlier this year and was confronted with this very issue when the player of the black pieces (late to the game) upon arrival at the board noticed that the clock was on his less favoured side.

The (black) player requested the clock be moved.

Robinson consulted The FIDE Laws of Chess (2005) and he found:

COMPETITION RULES
Article 6: The chess clock
~
6.4 Before the start of the game the arbiter decides where the chess clock is placed.

Finding nothing else to the contrary or that which should be read in conjunction, he ruled that the clock should remain.

Apparently, the idea that 'the player with the black pieces decides on which side of the board the clock should be located' is mere custom / convention. Opinions?

First I would say I don;t think customs should be referred to as "mere" however I am not aware of anything in the rules as to the placing of the clock other than that quoted above. Yes the arbiter decides.

In some cases this might be important. For example the arbiter might like to be able to monitor game progression from the central aisle of a playing hall and therefore might place the clocks all on the left side of the board on the right hand side, and vice versa. Another consideration might be a venue where some tables are a little crowded and having two clocks adjacent might cause two boards to also be adjacent and distracting for the players on those boards.

However, if the arbiter hadn't decided which side of the board the clock should be placed then the players need to some to some agreement. The usual convention is to allow Black to choose. However, if the game began with Black absent then White should be free to choose. After all, he need to make a move and start Black's clock.

Once started there is no compulsion on the arbiter to fiddle the clock just because Black, arriving late, didn't like the side the clock was placed. If he wants to have any input into that process he should at least be present at the start of the game.

Basil
03-11-2007, 03:47 PM
First I would say I don;t think customs should be referred to as "mere"
There is 'mere' in the sense that what follows is insignificant.
There is 'mere' in the sense that what follows is solely limited to.
I used the term as the latter.


however I am not aware of anything in the rules as to the placing of the clock other than that quoted above. Yes the arbiter decides.
Great. Is there anyone at all, anywhere who was under this misapprehension? :doh:


In some cases this might be important. For example the arbiter might like to be able to monitor game progression from the central aisle of a playing hall and therefore might place the clocks all on the left side of the board on the right hand side, and vice versa.
I have considered this previously, and believed the solution was to switch the orientation of the players! :eh:


Another consideration might be a venue where some tables are a little crowded and having two clocks adjacent might cause two boards to also be adjacent and distracting for the players on those boards.
Ditto.

Kevin Bonham
03-11-2007, 03:47 PM
Apparently, the idea that 'the player with the black pieces decides on which side of the board the clock should be located' is mere custom / convention. Opinions?

That is correct.

In many tournaments the boards will be set up a particular way and the arbiter will want to be able to see as many clocks as possible at the same time. This can only be arranged by having the clocks put on the same side. In some cases it would be possible to let Black decide the orientation of the board, but in others (where there were things to put in place on each player's side, for instance) this might be inconvenient.

This was all the centre of a ripper of an incident between Escribano and Komljenovic in a rapidplay in Melbourne in 2001-2. I know I wrote an account of it somewhere but cannot find it, but the basis of it was, as best I recall, that Escribano started the clock but Komljenovic, upon arriving at the board, decided to switch the clock around to his preferred side, and did so without resetting it so that Escribano actually started with four minutes to five when it should have been the other way around. This was dealt with by the arbiter in some no-nonsense fashion, but Komljenovic ended up winning the game, whereupon Escribano insisted Komljenovic should forfeit for the original misbehaviour. When this suggestion wasn't adopted Escribano withdrew from the tournament and in the bulletin the next day the five games Escribano forfeited were replaced in the crosstable by the words "Stupid People Always With Draw".

Rincewind
03-11-2007, 03:51 PM
This was all the centre of a ripper of an incident between Escribano and Komljenovic in a rapidplay in Melbourne in 2001-2. I know I wrote an account of it somewhere but cannot find it, but the basis of it was, as best I recall, that Escribano started the clock but Komljenovic, upon arriving at the board, decided to switch the clock around to his preferred side, and did so without resetting it so that Escribano actually started with four minutes to five when it should have been the other way around. This was dealt with by the arbiter in some no-nonsense fashion, but Komljenovic ended up winning the game, whereupon Escribano insisted Komljenovic should forfeit for the original misbehaviour. When this suggestion wasn't adopted Escribano withdrew from the tournament and in the bulletin the next day the five games Escribano forfeited were replaced in the crosstable by the words "Stupid People Always With Draw".

:) I hadn't heard this story. I take it then that he wasn't an approved withdrawer.

Basil
03-11-2007, 04:08 PM
When this suggestion wasn't adopted Escribano withdrew from the tournament and in the bulletin the next day the five games Escribano forfeited were replaced in the crosstable by the words "Stupid People Always With Draw".
Withdrawing from the tournament was wrong.

Komljenovic who had WRONGLY switched the clocks, AND had not taken into account the time differential behaved reprehensibly. The person responsible for amending the cross-table; likewise.

Kevin Bonham
03-11-2007, 04:14 PM
:) I hadn't heard this story. I take it then that he wasn't an approved withdrawer.

Certainly not. :lol:

Wish I could find my original account of the incident but suspect it was on the fall-over BBs in 2002 and hence not recoverable.

Denis_Jessop
03-11-2007, 09:05 PM
I, being in that kind of mood, just had a thought a la Reuben.

Stewart assets that, under Art. 13.7 b, the arbiter could designate the whole world as a place where is is forbidden to use a mobile phone (and he thinks that is a jolly good idea). By parity of reasoning, I suppose that the arbiter could decide, under Art. 6.4, that the clock was to be placed on the floor on in the toilet. :D :wall:

DJ

PS Who needs Laws of Chess anyway?:hmm: