PDA

View Full Version : Whats with this?



JGB
15-06-2004, 05:11 PM
We have a guy at our club (a decent player who recently won a tournamant so he's pretty excited as of late ((he is also a drunk by the way)) who as black always plays 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5. Bd3 Nf6 ... etc etc. Its Ok for black and I usually play 6. Qe2 although in blitz I usually gambit the C pawn and play for a quick attack which wins against the player in mention. This Thursday I will be playing against him in the quarter final of our Clubs K.O. Championship, I am likely to win the game but i'd like to hear from some good ideas from the white side of this game. Gambits or not, can anyone give me some pointers, that would be nice. Iive looked over quite a few games in my database and almost anything can be played from the 5th move onwards.

By the way my opponent will have no clue about 'book' lines; so cheap trappy lines could also be interesting to hear from.

Alan Shore
15-06-2004, 05:35 PM
We have a guy at our club (a decent player who recently won a tournamant so he's pretty excited as of late ((he is also a drunk by the way))...

Maybe he won cos he'd been drinking, I play better chess when drinking ;)

As for the line, I don't know that variation so much, I'd know more about 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6 3. g3 Bb7 4. Bg2 g6!? or, the Michael Owen as it's called by its creator ;)

JGB
15-06-2004, 05:37 PM
Anyway here the normal 'starting' position:

1. e4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5. Bd3 Nf6

some ideas gentlemen ?

JGB
15-06-2004, 05:39 PM
Maybe he won cos he'd been drinking, I play better chess when drinking ;)

I'd have to dissagree his ratings dropped about 400 points over the last year! I think something is starting to take effect... :doh:

Alan Shore
15-06-2004, 05:43 PM
I'd have to dissagree his ratings dropped about 400 points over the last year! I think something is starting to take effect... :doh:

That's funny, my rating dropped about 200 points as.... well...

...damn.

Maybe should just stick to blitz and transfer when drinking though :D

JGB
15-06-2004, 06:57 PM
Maybe should just stick to blitz and transfer when drinking though :D

.. I hope your talking about chess variations and not funny drinking games here. For drinking games they sound a bit dodgy ;Transfer (Naah Ill keep my own beer thanks ! :confused: ) and blitz (I know this game pretty well :lol: )

Trent Parker
15-06-2004, 10:40 PM
This is called Owen's Defence is it not?

JGB
15-06-2004, 11:15 PM
This is called Owen's Defence is it not?

... im hoping to get some tips on it... :hmm:

Kevin Bonham
15-06-2004, 11:27 PM
Yes, this is Owen's. I have a bit of history with this nonsense because I sometimes use it (via the move order 1...e6, 2...b6, 3...Bb7) against a certain class of player. Generally I will play it against an aggressive but positionally and strategically weak opponent who might be dangerous in a more open French Exchange. It's playable but it needs careful handling.

I would be pretty happy (as Black) if White played the exact line you give against it. Nc3 and Nf3 don't quite mix to me, and for what, the N on c3 is doing not much except guarding the pawn it moved there to protect on move 3. White gets slowed down a bit or gets weaknesses dealing with the B pin on c3. After 6.Qe2 d5 Black is doing OK. NCO doesn't even mention Nc3 and only gives 3.Bd3 and commonly White in some order plays many or all of the following: Qe2, Nf3, c3, 0-0, a3 then b4, Nbd2. With the white knights on f3 and d2 the centre is ready to roll without punishment from the b7-bishop if Black does anything dumb.

One tricky line worth knowing about if you do play 3.Bd3 is 3...f5? 4.exf5 Bxg2 5.Qh5 g6 6.fxg6 Bg7 and now the move is 7.Qf5 and a well-prepared White should win from here.

Anyone know of a good recent book on this? I'm thinking of investing if there is one.

Trent Parker
15-06-2004, 11:29 PM
hmm lets see. I just pulled out NCO see what that says:
Mainline: (main?)
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Qe2 e6 5.Nf3 c5 6.c3 Be7 7.0-0 Nc6 8.a3 d6 9.b4 Qc7 10.Nbd2 e5 11.bxc5 bxc5 12.dxc5 dxc5 13.Nc4 0-0 14.Bb2 +/=

Branches:
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 e6 4.Nf3 c5 5.c3 Nf6 6.Nbd2 Nc6 7.0-0 cxd4 8.Nxd4! (8.cxd4 Nb4 9.Bb1 Ba6 10. Re1 Rc8) 8...Ne5 9.Bc2 +/=
hmm interesting... this variation seems to transpose into a colle like position.

This is interesting....
1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Qe2 e6 5.Nf3 c5 6.c3 Be7 7.0-0 Nc6 8.a3 Na5 9.Nbd2 c4 10.Bc2 Qc7 11.Re1 b5 12.Rb1 a6 13.Nf1 h6 14.Ng3 d6 15.e5 dxe5 16.Nxe5 +/= E.Kuipers-Rogers, Dutch Cht 1997.

Cannot find anything on Nc3. So perhaps the verdict is to play c3 rather than play Nc3 perhaps? Just something for a change ?

JGB
15-06-2004, 11:35 PM
Thanks for your help. I found about 400 game played with Nc3, up to 6.Qe2, but perhaps what you have found is 'book' main line, Ill give it a good analysis.

Rincewind
15-06-2004, 11:35 PM
I don't know much about the Owen but that has never stoped me from having an opinion before.

At move 6 I'd favour. 6.Bg5 This sets up the nasty threat of e5 which is not so easy to meet. In general it forces Black down one variation which, while not brilliant for white, I think white retains an edge. The variation is

6.Bg5 h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.O-O Bxc3 9.bxc3 O-O and probably now 10.Ne5 looks comfortable for white. Other moves are possible but no where near as common as these.

The problem I think with 6.Qe2 is the following 6...d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Bd2 Nxc3 9.bxc3 Be7 10.O-O Nd7 and black looks practically equal.

However, you could look at surprising him with an earlier deviation. How about 4.a3, as black has stuffed around a bit you should have time for an annoying little move like this which will put an end to his Bb4 ambitions entirely.

Seems to me a major theme in this variation is black is trying to counter whites control over e4. White is also at a disadvantage (as compared to a Q-Indian, for example) since Qc2 (which can be a useful move against this sort of plan since it controls e4) is not possible as the c-pawn is behind the knight. So a3 makes senses as it is the sort of move you might see in an anti-nimzo-esque variation.

Anyway, take a look at these yourself. A possible line after 4.a3 is 4...Nf6 5.Bd3 Be7 6.Nf3 and white looks to be doing OK. But it is more open ended than the other variations so will probably require some more homework.

Good luck!

Kevin Bonham
16-06-2004, 12:02 AM
Thanks for your help. I found about 400 game played with Nc3, up to 6.Qe2, but perhaps what you have found is 'book' main line, Ill give it a good analysis.

3.Nc3 is certainly played a lot. Chessbase says that White scores 55% from 3.Bd3 but only 51% from 3.Nc3. Of course this could say more about the strength of players playing each line than the lines themselves.

JGB
16-06-2004, 12:39 AM
I think I like Nc3 to temp the bishop pin which most often results in the B for K trade for the double pawns. I find in the positions that result the double C pawns are almost an advantage in controlling the center for white.

Rincewind
16-06-2004, 12:46 AM
I think I like Nc3 to temp the bishop pin which most often results in the B for K trade for the double pawns. I find in the positions that result the double C pawns are almost an advantage in controlling the center for white.

In that case you might like the 6.Bg5 line. You will probably end up with that structure and keep your pawn on e4 too!

JGB
16-06-2004, 12:47 AM
Im going off to play some blitz against Fritz in these lines and see which ones he likes and which suit my game. Thanks for all your ideas guys. Ill be back ;)

JGB
16-06-2004, 01:46 AM
...so im back.

After taking a good look at the opening im rather fond of 3. Bd3 and will be playing that in the future. Its just more flexible, wait and see what black does with king side before commiting to the any bishop pin. 3.Nc3 is only played about 10% as often and is not so strong judging by the figures.

I found a nice one after f5, I think its the sort of thing Kevin was talking about ... (of course white's first 2 moves are reversed but thats irrelevant)

Hassenrueck,Helmut - Hitzelberger,Frank
Bad Wildbad op Bad Wildbad (1), 1999

1.d2-d4 b7-b6 2.e2-e4 Bc8-b7 3.Bf1-d3 f7-f5 4.e4xf5 Bb7xg2 5.Qd1-h5+ g7-g6 6.f5xg6 Bf8-g7 7.g6xh7+ Ke8-f8 8.Ng1-f3 Ng8-f6 9.Qh5-g6 Bg2xh1 10.Bc1-h6 Rh8xh7 11.Nf3-g5 Bg7xh6 12.Ng5xh7+ Nf6xh7 13.Qg6xh6+ Kf8-f7 14.Qh6xh7+ Kf7-f6 15.Qh7-g6# 10


Anyway ill let you all know how that game goes (if its any good). I know i'll look pretty stupid if he plays 1...e5. or the even the crazier 1...c5 :mad: Ahhh well at least then I would have learnt a bit of theory on the Owen defence.

[b](Jeo) Edit: Use - instead of

Kevin Bonham
16-06-2004, 02:50 AM
In that game Black should have played 9...Bxf3 when he should be able to come out only a pawn down and with some very vague chances of getting into the game.

JGB
18-06-2004, 03:48 PM
Of course he did not turn up last night! :( He better be there this sunday or next thursday or he forefits. Pretty crappy when your oponent lives in car most of the time and has no car phone... (ahhh well thats the life of a gambling drunk)

JGB
25-06-2004, 08:24 PM
Finally, last night we played... what a catastrophy! Ok I won after losing a pawn in the opening, but the evening was long. Last night my opponent and I decided to play next monday and enjoy the 'monthly blitz' tournament. So after 3 hours of blitz and a couple of beers and maybe a congac or two ;) my opponent had the crazy idea to play our rated tournament game anyway, at which point I though 'hey why not lets get it over with, he will be a quick kill, he has probably had twice as much of the good German beer as me'. Yeah he had, but he could play better than me after the drinking (I guess his years of experience help!)
At 3.15 am I finally won a drawn (I think although I must look at the analysis when im back at home) rook and 4 pawns against knight and 6 pawns end game. My opponent ran into big time troubles. Ill look at the game before I even consider wasting your time, although it could be worth a few laughs.

by the way it was an Owen defence ... (so it does have some relevance)

JGB
01-07-2004, 06:06 PM
Don't expect too much.

A rook against knight plus two pawn was an end game I did not want to enter into in the state I was in. Anyway, here it is... :eh:

[Event "2004 Wetzisreute Pokal "]
[Site "Ravensburg"]
[Date "2004.06.24"]
[White "Bonning, James G"]
[Black "Kuch, Elmar"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3. Bd3 Nf6 4. Qe2 Nc6 5. Nf3 {the first new move, better is probably c3} e6 6. e5 Nd5 7. a3 h6 8. c4
Nde7 9. Nc3 Na5 10. b4 {I think my chance resulting from this pawn offer are good} Nb3 11. Rb1 Bxf3 12. Qxf3 Nxd4 13. Qg4 Nef5 14. Bxf5
Nxf5 15. O-O Qh4 16. Qf3 c6 17. Ne4 {g4 is outright winning says Fritz} Be7 18. c5 O-O 19. Be3 Rfb8 20. Rfd1 {blacks pawn advantage is useless} Rb7
21. Bd4 Rab8 22. cxb6 axb6 23. Rbc1 Ra8 24. Rd3 Rba7 {about now im wondering whats he getting at, maybe the beer has really taken affect} 25. Bxb6 Rxa3 {yep its kicked in! he does not get quite enough for his Rook}26. Rxa3
Rxa3 27. Qxa3 Qxe4 28. Bc5 Bxc5 29. bxc5 Qxe5 30. Qd3 Qd5 31. Qc2 Nh4 32. f4
Qd4+ 33. Qf2 Qxf2+ 34. Kxf2 {Frtiz is telling me im winning big time here but I just don't see the win} Kf8 35. g3 Nf5 36. Rb1 Ke7 37. Ra1 f6 38. Ra2 g5
39. g4 Nd4 40. Ke3 Nb5 41. fxg5 hxg5 42. Kd3 e5 43. Rf2 Nc7 44. Ke4 Ne6 45. Rc2
Nf4 46. Kf5 Nd5 47. Re2 Nf4 48. Re3 Ne6 49. Rc3 Nf4 50. {Its now early morning im pretty finished and just want to sleep, I offered the draw here ; he declines!} Rf3 Ne6 51. Rc3 Ng7+
52. Kg6 Ne6 53. Kf5 Nd4+ 54. Ke4 Ke6 { I don't know what he thinks he can achieve, but, I know what I can do... I bring my nice friend a new beer!} 55. Rc1 Ne2 56. Rc2 Ng1 {yep, that last pint did the trick} 57. Rd2 Nh3 58.
Rd6+ {Its all over now} Ke7 59. Kf5 Nf2 60. Rxf6 e4 61. Kxg5 Nxg4 62. Rf4 Ne5 63. Rxe4 1-0


Thanks for bearing through that with me.

skip to my lou
01-07-2004, 06:37 PM
James, leave the headers outside the pgn tag. Use the PGN Uploader I made as it will do it for you and also nicely format it.

Glenno
24-03-2005, 02:15 PM
Anyway here the normal 'starting' position:

1. e4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5. Bd3 Nf6

some ideas gentlemen ?

The database on www.chesslab.com has found 168 games with those opening moves. Of those, 55 games (32.74%) have been won by White, 58 (34.52%) have been won by Black, and 55 (32.74%) have been drawn.

Of the 168 games, 102 have 6. Qe2 has its next move, of which 78 also has 6... d5. Yet, of those 78 games, White has won only 22 games (28.21%), Black has won 30 (38.46%) and there were 26 draws (33.33%).

Basil
15-07-2007, 12:55 AM
I don't know much about the Owen but that has never stoped me from having an opinion before.
$30 HCDs!

Capablanca-Fan
15-07-2007, 01:57 AM
One tricky line worth knowing about if you do play 3.Bd3 is 3...f5? 4.exf5 Bxg2 5.Qh5 g6 6.fxg6 Bg7 and now the move is 7.Qf5 and a well-prepared White should win from here.
The game in question is Guido Den Broeder vs W Wegener, Correspondence World Cup V preliminary round 1982 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1462538). White just has to remember 7. Qf5!! Nf6 8. Bh6! Bxh6 9. gxh7, when Qg6 is coming, picking off either the Bg2 which in turn attacks the Ra8, or the Bh6 with an attack that soon wins.

With that out of the way, there should be no hesitation in playing 3. Bd3. 3. Nc3 allows the annoying pin with Bb4, and also stops the central reinforcement with c3.

Basil
15-07-2007, 02:04 AM
One tricky line worth knowing about if you do play 3.Bd3 is 3...f5? 4.exf5 Bxg2 5.Qh5 g6 6.fxg6 Bg7 and now the move is 7.Qf5 and a well-prepared White should win from here.
Aha! But black now has the Gunner Variation.


Anyone know of a good recent book on this? I'm thinking of investing if there is one.I'm presently writing one over here! (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=6644) You've been invited to be co-author ;)

Capablanca-Fan
15-07-2007, 02:16 AM
Aha! But black now has the Gunner Variation.
How does this go?

Basil
15-07-2007, 02:36 AM
How does this go?
View link in previous post #26. I have inadvertently started a parallel thread - a much better one!

Capablanca-Fan
15-07-2007, 12:02 PM
View link in previous post #26. I have inadvertently started a parallel thread - a much better one!
Oh, you mean 3...Nc6, to which I would play 4.c3. The impression I gained from "But black now has the Gunner Variation" was, in context, something following 7. Qf5, rescuing that line from a rout.

Basil
15-07-2007, 12:22 PM
Apologies for misleading you. But I tire of this thread which has proven nothing for black - I'm out to develop a workable and credible defence over there :cool:

I shall do it alone if I have to.

Capablanca-Fan
16-07-2007, 09:27 AM
Apologies for misleading you. But I tire of this thread which has proven nothing for black - I'm out to develop a workable and credible defence over there :cool:

I shall do it alone if I have to.
One reason Miles chose 1... a6 is to get an improved version of the Owen's, with 2. ... b5, since in the main Owen's lines, Black plays ...b5 later.