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road runner
17-10-2007, 10:02 PM
Would be interested to hear people's assessment of this position. Preferably come to the position cold, i.e. no computer help. Feel free to offer a simple "small advantage for white/black", or go more detailed if you feel like it, or even give a variation or two if it takes your fancy.

White to move...


r2r2k1/p1q2pp1/4p2p/1p1n3P/8/2PP2P1/P4PB1/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 24

Aaron Guthrie
17-10-2007, 10:32 PM
Plus to Black.

Reason- White looks nice on the light squares, but I don't think he can do anything with this. But Blacks positive plan, against the weak White pawns, does look like it can be effective.

Capablanca-Fan
17-10-2007, 10:59 PM
Plus to Black.

Reason- White looks nice on the light squares, but I don't think he can do anything with this. But Blacks positive plan, against the weak White pawns, does look like it can be effective.
Yeah. White's pawns look shaky. Maybe White can arrange a4?

Kevin Bonham
18-10-2007, 12:05 AM
My immediate thought when I looked at the position was plus to Black on account of white's pair of hanging pawns which are in the line of fire.

I tried to find a concrete line for white to convert the pressure on the diagonal into material gain or a serious shift in the position but failed. For a moment I thought Rc1 followed by c4, but at best that seems to leave white with one isolated pawn instead of two hanging ones and hence still struggling a bit.

The above is based on <2 mins thought. Could be nonsense.

Basil
18-10-2007, 01:20 AM
What they sed ^ but I revised my plus for black to = after white plays 1.Qb3 and see what black wants to do about 2.c4 with Rc1 on the way - all the while giving the Ra8 our best Clint Eastwood scowl.

Garrett
18-10-2007, 03:38 PM
I'd be confident of losing this for either side.

Capablanca-Fan
18-10-2007, 05:43 PM
Like a lot of positions encountered here, computer analysis is not much help.

road runner
19-10-2007, 06:40 PM
Thanks everyone.

I had Black here, and having fought my way out of a tough opening, I figured I had equalised and offered a draw, which was accepted. Live and learn.

Greekster
20-10-2007, 10:50 AM
Black should have played for the win. White's hanging pawns are unusually on the third rank, hence I see no forceable way for White to make the typical d-pawn thrust to break into Black's position, especialy seeing that the b1-h7 diagonal is of no real use for White since White's Queen and Bishop cannot form a battery with the Queen leading the way (this could be arranged but it will take too much time and White would have to give up his only real plus, which is his Bishop on the long diagonal), and Black's Knight already prevents the typical d4-d5 breakthrough. As for the other possible pawn thrust, the c-pawn thrust, that would, without any real benefit, end up giving White an isolated pawn, which if anything would be weaker, expecially seeing that Black's Rook eyes White's Queen along the d-file already (if Black chooses to have an isolated d3-pawn instead, then Black's Knight becomes a more secure outpost). This leaves White's hanging pawns only good while they stand abreast, but being on the third rank, they don't provide the space advantage and central control associated with hanging pawns (on the fourth rank). Black should thus apply piece pressure against White's hanging pawns (which already are eyed frontally by Black's heavy pieces) and force one of them to advance and thereby leave weak squares for Black's pieces to plant themselves on (e.g. Knight on the c4 already supported by the b5-pawn, or even better on d4 supported by ...e5 so as to be immune from White's Bishop and be closer to White's King and even within checking distance). This is especially hopeful for Black because such weak squares would be closer to the enemy King than normal, allowing them to jump into the attack against the enemy King should such circumstances allow it. The other option is to go straight for winning White's weak hanging pawns, with the "blockade ring" (as coined by Nimzowitsch) easily formed by ...e5 to immobilize the pawns. So all the chances lie with Black. No computer assistance used.

WhiteElephant
20-10-2007, 12:27 PM
Black should have played for the win. White's hanging pawns are unusually on the third rank, hence I see no forceable way for White to make the typical d-pawn thrust to break into Black's position, especialy seeing that the b1-h7 diagonal is of no real use for White since White's Queen and Bishop cannot form a battery with the Queen leading the way (this could be arranged but it will take too much time and White would have to give up his only real plus, which is his Bishop on the long diagonal), and Black's Knight already prevents the typical d4-d5 breakthrough. As for the other possible pawn thrust, the c-pawn thrust, that would, without any real benefit, end up giving White an isolated pawn, which if anything would be weaker, expecially seeing that Black's Rook eyes White's Queen along the d-file already (if Black chooses to have an isolated d3-pawn instead than Black's Knight becomes a more secure outpost). This leaves White's hanging pawns only good while they stand abreast, but being on the third rank, they don't provide the space advantage and central control associated with hanging pawns (on the fourth rank). Black should thus apply piece pressure against White's hanging pawns (which already are eyed frontally by Black's heavy pieces) and force one of them to advance and thereby leave weak squares for Black's pieces to plant themselves on (e.g. Knight on the c4). This is especially hopeful for Black because such weak squares would be closer to the enemy King than normal, allowing them to jump into the attack against the enemy King should such circumstances allow it. The other option is to go straight for winning White's weak hanging pawns. So all the chances lie with Black. No computer assistance used.

LOL...I don't understand any of this....I think I need to read more chess books.

WhiteElephant
20-10-2007, 12:32 PM
Thanks everyone.

I had Black here, and having fought my way out of a tough opening, I figured I had equalised and offered a draw, which was accepted. Live and learn.

Nothing wrong with that, sometimes you put all your energy into rescuing a position, it's just a relief to get out of the game with a draw.

I agree that black LOOKS better but how to realise the advantage..not so easy.

Capablanca-Fan
21-10-2007, 12:08 AM
Yet one more reason why computers are hard to play against. They don't care what their position was like; they just play the current position. Among humans, Karpov was very good at playing for a win even after struggling for a long time in a worse position.

Garvinator
21-10-2007, 01:31 AM
LOL...I don't understand any of this....I think I need to read more chess books.
Perhaps if Greekstar learnt to paragraph, then you might understand ;) :cool: