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martal
14-10-2007, 07:02 PM
Hello all,
Just joined. :)
Recently arrived from England in Wagga Wagga. No chess here that I can find:(
Will be going to the Albury club soon.
Would like to play in the Doeberl tournament, Easter 2008 but can't find details. Does anyone know re this?
Many thanks.
Martin

Basil
14-10-2007, 07:09 PM
Hi Martal

Welcome to the site. You will receive good feedback from goo people. You've come to the right place. I don't know anything about the Wagga Wagga area but I leave this welcoming present for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piOBujeXoFQ&mode=related&search=

Maxwell843
14-10-2007, 07:25 PM
I have been told that there will be details available for the 2008 Doeberl Tournament via http://chessexpress.blogspot.com/ this week.

eclectic
14-10-2007, 07:31 PM
if you book mark this page you should be ok as when the 2008 event gets closer a more relevant link will be put up i would think

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/results/weekenders/2007DoeberlCup.htm

march 21 to march 24 2008

with the 2008 sydney international open starting the next day

Brian_Jones
15-10-2007, 08:50 AM
See http://chessaustralia.spaces.live.com/

Ian Rout
09-11-2007, 01:58 PM
The web site (http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/) is now up. Note the new domain, not on my site this year.

Garvinator
09-11-2007, 03:15 PM
The changes to the Premier Division should be the main factor to be promoted so players are aware of them:


2008 Premier Tournament (9 Rounds) - 90mins+30secs

Date Activity Start Time

19 March (Wed) Entries close 1200hrs

20 March (Thurs) Round One 1300hrs
Round Two 1900hrs

21 March (Fri) Round Three 1300hrs
Round Four 1900hrs

22 March (Sat) Round Five 1000hrs
Round Six 1500hrs

23 March (Sun) Round Seven 1000hrs
Round Eight 1500hrs

24 March (Mon) Round Nine 0900hrs
Presentations 1345hrs

and:


General Tournament Rules

1. The number of rounds and time controls for tournaments are listed in the schedule.
2. The tournament will be ACF and FIDE rated, and will be constituted as a FIDE Title Tournament. The Major will be ACF and FIDE rated, and all other tournaments will be ACF rated.
3. The Swiss Manager program will be used for pairings.
4. All mobile phones and electronic devices are banned in the tournament hall.
5. Draws in under 30 moves allowed only with consent of the arbiter.
6. Organisers reserve the right to refuse entry to a player.
7. There is no smoking in the playing hall, analysis/lecture area or any other part of the premises under the control of the tournament organisers.
8. There is no analysis in the playing hall.


Policy on Short Draws

Draws by mutual agreement in under 30 moves are not allowed without the agreement of the arbiter. No pre-arranged / tacit agreements to draw are allowed (of any length, by repetition or otherwise). Genuine draws by repetition or stalemate are acceptable.

and:

There is a limit of 80 entries in each division. I believe that there is also a new rating limit for the Premier of over 1800 acf/fide.

WhiteElephant
09-11-2007, 03:21 PM
From Doeberl Rules:

Mobile Phone Usage

We will be enforcing a strict No Mobile Phone usage during the event policy.

All mobile phones and other communication devices are to be switched off in the tournament hall. This includes PDAs, MP3 players and any other devices that can receive external transmissions.

A breach of this rule will result in the automatic loss of the game in the case of a player (if a game is in progress), or the exclusion from the tournament hall until the start of the next round (in the case of player who has finished their game), or for the rest of the day (in the case of a spectator).

__________________________________________________ _______

I personally like to listen to music during my games but I can see why this rule would be in place.

During the recent Elwood weekender, a few people (including myself) started the tournament listening to iPods, Mp3 players, etc.

About half way into the tournament, Charlez Z made an announcement that electronic devices were not permitted in the playing hall. Fair enough, I stopped listening to my iPod. However, I spotted people who continued listening to music for the remainder of the tournament. Anyway, my comment is that if such a rule exists, it should be enforced, otherwise I would like to continue listening to music thank you very much.

WhiteElephant
09-11-2007, 03:23 PM
Also noticed the following. Is this normal for the Doeberl?

Policy on Short Draws

Draws by mutual agreement in under 30 moves are not allowed without the agreement of the arbiter. No pre-arranged / tacit agreements to draw are allowed (of any length, by repetition or otherwise). Genuine draws by repetition or stalemate are acceptable.

Charles
09-11-2007, 09:07 PM
Hi all, the website is up and registrations and payments can now be made for those that are interested. All the details can be found at www.doeberlcup.com.au.

Ian Rout
12-11-2007, 08:47 AM
Also noticed the following. Is this normal for the Doeberl?

Policy on Short Draws

Draws by mutual agreement in under 30 moves are not allowed without the agreement of the arbiter. No pre-arranged / tacit agreements to draw are allowed (of any length, by repetition or otherwise). Genuine draws by repetition or stalemate are acceptable.
This is the first year that this provision has applied to the Doeberl, though it has been introduced in other tournaments. From memory it applied in both Queenstown and the Sydney International Open.

Rincewind
12-11-2007, 09:14 AM
Policy on Short Draws

Draws by mutual agreement in under 30 moves are not allowed without the agreement of the arbiter. No pre-arranged / tacit agreements to draw are allowed (of any length, by repetition or otherwise). Genuine draws by repetition or stalemate are acceptable.

Surely players wanting a draw can produce an entirely plausible repetition of position in most circumstances.

Ian Rout
12-11-2007, 09:17 AM
From Doeberl Rules:

Mobile Phone Usage

We will be enforcing a strict No Mobile Phone usage during the event policy.

All mobile phones and other communication devices are to be switched off in the tournament hall. This includes PDAs, MP3 players and any other devices that can receive external transmissions.

Coincidentally this item (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4238) (pointed out on Shaun Press's blog), came to light recently.

WhiteElephant
12-11-2007, 09:25 AM
Surely players wanting a draw can produce an entirely plausible repetition of position in most circumstances.

But how do you make the offer? You can't actually say anything at the board or people around you will know. If you start repeating a move and your opponent doesn't repeat you just end up looking foolish and wasting a valuable move (especially if the position is not drawish). Maybe you could offer at the water cooler when no one is around? :)

WhiteElephant
12-11-2007, 09:26 AM
Coincidentally this item (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4238) (pointed out on Shaun Press's blog), came to light recently.

Yeah saw that LOL.

Davidflude
12-11-2007, 10:13 AM
Hello all,
Just joined. :)
Recently arrived from England in Wagga Wagga. No chess here that I can find:(
Will be going to the Albury club soon.
Would like to play in the Doeberl tournament, Easter 2008 but can't find details. Does anyone know re this?
Many thanks.
Martin

The other tournament that you should play is the Begonia weekender in Ballarat.
This is held over a three day weekend in February/March. It would be an easy drive from Aubury/Wodonga down the Hume Highway,around the ring road and up the highway. There may even be short cuts that I do no know about.

field ranges from GM's to novices.

pax
12-11-2007, 01:45 PM
Coincidentally this item (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4238) (pointed out on Shaun Press's blog), came to light recently.

The plug for pocket Fritz at the end is particularly amusing.

Spiny Norman
12-11-2007, 02:24 PM
The plug for pocket Fritz at the end is particularly amusing.
I found this bit made me chuckle:

Chess Vibes asked the Dutch Federation’s competition manager, Ron Bleeker, to comment on the severity of the punishment. Bleeker: “For deciding on the penalty I used my intuition: I think it’s a very heavy offense and so a heavy penalty is needed. It is not the maximum penalty. That I can still use for even heavier offenses, like physical violence. Naturally I hope I won’t need this.”
Something must have been lost in the translation, because as I read that, it says that Bleeker hopes he won't have to use physical violence as a 'heavier penalty'. :)

Denis_Jessop
12-11-2007, 02:32 PM
Also noticed the following. Is this normal for the Doeberl?

Policy on Short Draws

Draws by mutual agreement in under 30 moves are not allowed without the agreement of the arbiter. No pre-arranged / tacit agreements to draw are allowed (of any length, by repetition or otherwise). Genuine draws by repetition or stalemate are acceptable.

There are a few oddities about this.

First, it is called a "policy", not a "rule" and is separate from the "rules". What is intended by this distinction?

Secondly, it allows a draw with "the agreement of the arbiter". What does this mean? What criteria would the arbiter apply and will they be declared in advance? A rule couched in these terms is open to abuse.

Thirdly, what is a "genuine draw" by repetition or stalemate? If this means that pre-arranged draws are excluded, it is a bit silly as, if the organisers have evidence of a pre-arranged draw, which they would need to declare the draw other than "genuine", the matter should be more severely dealt with. Or, perhaps like the reference to "mutual" agreement, it's just a bit of verbal deviation by the drafter.

DJ

Ian Rout
15-11-2007, 12:43 PM
The new venue at the Hellenic Club, Woden is much further away and public transport is not good.

DJ
I borrowed the above from the Aust Championship thread as I thought it would be more appropriate here.

It's true that public transport in Canberra is largely useless but the exception is between interchanges. The Hellenic Club is next to the Woden interchange so if you stay near the Civic, Tuggeranong or (for some services) Erindale you will be reasonably well served.

The only problem is that buses run on the Sunday timetable on public holidays and the last bus leaves a bit after 7pm; however on the Doeberl Cup web page there is a Car Pooling link for people seeking lifts.

Woden is not the Deep South, incidentally, it's maybe 6km from Parliament House.

Denis_Jessop
15-11-2007, 03:42 PM
I borrowed the above from the Aust Championship thread as I thought it would be more appropriate here.

It's true that public transport in Canberra is largely useless but the exception is between interchanges. The Hellenic Club is next to the Woden interchange so if you stay near the Civic, Tuggeranong or (for some services) Erindale you will be reasonably well served.

The only problem is that buses run on the Sunday timetable on public holidays and the last bus leaves a bit after 7pm; however on the Doeberl Cup web page there is a Car Pooling link for people seeking lifts.

Woden is not the Deep South, incidentally, it's maybe 6km from Parliament House.

True - I was referring to the matter of getting to Woden from Kingston which is rather more complex by PT. Are there any backpacker-type places near Woden - I don't know; I only live here :eek:

DJ

Vlad
16-11-2007, 01:55 AM
Secondly, it allows a draw with "the agreement of the arbiter". What does this mean? What criteria would the arbiter apply and will they be declared in advance? A rule couched in these terms is open to abuse.
DJ

That is a very good point, Denis. That is exactly the way both Segey Shipov and myself felt when we played in the SIO this year. On the one hand, the organizers claimed that there was a 30 move policy. On the other hand we could observe that some of the top games were drawn much earlier and the positions were still certainly playable. It did really look like that some people could easily avoid this policy, while others were too proud/modest to ask. Was it meant to be some kind of advantage of locals in comparison to foreigners?

Garvinator
16-11-2007, 02:09 AM
Was it meant to be some kind of advantage of locals in comparison to foreigners?
There was no advantage for locals in comparison to foreigners. How dare you make any such allegation? What FACTS do you have to back up such an allegation?

Metro
16-11-2007, 03:44 AM
The other tournament that you should play is the Begonia weekender in Ballarat.

One of the best tournaments in Australia(Stephen Solomon thinks so too).

Brian_Jones
16-11-2007, 09:02 AM
That is a very good point, Denis. That is exactly the way both Segey Shipov and myself felt when we played in the SIO this year. On the one hand, the organizers claimed that there was a 30 move policy. On the other hand we could observe that some of the top games were drawn much earlier and the positions were still certainly playable. It did really look like that some people could easily avoid this policy, while others were too proud/modest to ask. Was it meant to be some kind of advantage of locals in comparison to foreigners?

The policy of the organisers was announced at the SIO Players Meeting before the start of play.

Policing would be low key. Agreed draws would be generally accepted. Players were asked not to agree very short draws. The arbiters were given discretion to reject very short draws if this became a problem.

Rincewind
16-11-2007, 11:17 AM
But how do you make the offer? You can't actually say anything at the board or people around you will know. If you start repeating a move and your opponent doesn't repeat you just end up looking foolish and wasting a valuable move (especially if the position is not drawish). Maybe you could offer at the water cooler when no one is around? :)

My understanding is you are allowed to offer a draw, it just has to be ratified by the arbiter. Therefore you can ascertain your opponents willingness for a draw verbally without breaking the rules.

Secondly I think in many non-drawish but equal positions there are possibly repetitions were the "waste of move" disadvantage is only slight. Perhaps that says more about my dullish opening repertoire than anything else. :)

WhiteElephant
16-11-2007, 11:33 AM
The policy of the organisers was announced at the SIO Players Meeting before the start of play.

Policing would be low key. Agreed draws would be generally accepted. Players were asked not to agree very short draws. The arbiters were given discretion to reject very short draws if this became a problem.

My opinion is that the 30-move draw rule should be either strictly and consistently applied for everyone (ie. a rule not a policy) or not used at all.

According to the above, there is no clear definition when a short draw is ok, so I can understand how the situation drug refers to would arise. Local players who might know the arbiter well might be confident trying it on with short draws while overseas players who do not know the arbiter might feel pressured to play on.

Intuition
16-11-2007, 11:38 AM
My opinion is that the 30-move draw rule should be either strictly and consistently applied for everyone (ie. a rule not a policy) or not used at all.


Absoultley, its the only fair way to do it :)... personally I dont think the 30 move rule is required at doeberl... it is not as if we are talking about an elite GM tourney where millions of people are following the games and large sponsorship ect is an issue

Ian Rout
16-11-2007, 12:13 PM
... personally I dont think the 30 move rule is required at doeberl... it is not as if we are talking about an elite GM tourney where millions of people are following the games and large sponsorship ect is an issue
In the sense that it's not Linares that's true, in any other sense it isn't. The sponsorship is huge by Australian standards and the sponsors aren't putting it in as a charitable donation to people shaking hands after five moves, they expect a bit of a show for their money and rightly so. How many sponsors would Cricket Australia get if two Test teams could agree to a draw after the first over? Moreover the organisers put a lot of work into it and are entitled to a few good games coming out of it, and maybe the possibility of a game or two making it into Informator.

Brian_Jones
16-11-2007, 12:13 PM
Absoultley, its the only fair way to do it :)... personally I dont think the 30 move rule is required at doeberl... it is not as if we are talking about an elite GM tourney where millions of people are following the games and large sponsorship ect is an issue

The Laws of Chess cannot be changed but the organiser can do as it pleases with regard to draw policy and instructions to the arbiters.

George (WE), you and I can agree to disagree on this subject but I have no idea who Intuition is and why he holds the above opinion!

But in fairness to the organisers/sponsors, I suggest that the players cannot complain about policy if they fail to attend the Players meeting and/or read the notice boards.

Ian Rout
16-11-2007, 03:30 PM
True - I was referring to the matter of getting to Woden from Kingston which is rather more complex by PT. Are there any backpacker-type places near Woden - I don't know; I only live here :eek:

DJ
There is a page at the Doeberl site for accommodation which advises that it will be populated when some things have been negotiated.

I'm not aware of a backpackers' in Woden but for those who previously stayed at the backpackers in Civic the express to Woden and the route bus to Manuka are comparable, it's more the people who stayed for the next level up who will be looking for something new.

Charles
16-11-2007, 04:07 PM
Hi all, We have negotiated some different accommodation packages and they will be up next week. They range from 4 star to budget. The bus timetables that are applicable to start times including platform too and from are listed on the website under Local Transport. This covers travelling from both Civic and Tuggeraong to Woden. The club is 200 metres to the North from the bus termius at Woden. There will be plenty of parking over the weekend as there is a major terminus carpark located adjacent to the club.

Vlad
16-11-2007, 04:37 PM
The policy of the organisers was announced at the SIO Players Meeting before the start of play.

Policing would be low key. Agreed draws would be generally accepted. Players were asked not to agree very short draws. The arbiters were given discretion to reject very short draws if this became a problem.

We arrived too late for the first round and missed the announcement. However I talked to bergil about the issue later (around round 6) and he did not mention anything about the announcement. Maybe he missed it as well?:)

I understand that it makes it fairer than I thought. But you still obviously have a trade off: advantage of local players (again easier to find out if you missed the announcement) versus too many short draws. Maybe you should have included this information in the tournament rules. I mean saying explicitly that the policy will apply only if there have been too many draws.

Charles
21-11-2007, 02:49 PM
For 2008 we are providing a carpooling information page where people can register to get a lift or provide lifts. This can be accessed from the carpooling page or when players are registering.

Watto
21-11-2007, 07:15 PM
The web site (http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/) is now up. Note the new domain, not on my site this year.
Thanks Ian. Looks like a really good website.
I wonder whether you or one of the other Canberra based cc members might consider adding the site address to their signature for ease of reference? (it's useful for posters who don't have time to search through the whole thread...)

Ian Rout
22-11-2007, 09:07 AM
I wonder whether you or one of the other Canberra based cc members might consider adding the site address to their signature for ease of reference? (it's useful for posters who don't have time to search through the whole thread...)
Test ...

Watto
22-11-2007, 09:42 AM
Test ...
All worked for me... :)

pax
22-11-2007, 04:39 PM
Great site, and looks like it will be a sensational tournament in an excellent venue. A number of titled players lined up already I see.

Charles
28-11-2007, 01:41 PM
Hi all,

Accommodation options that have been negotiated are now up under the accommodation page. www.doeberlcup.com.au

Charles
29-11-2007, 09:21 AM
Addition to my last note that some of the room rates are only available at this stage until 31 December.

Igor_Goldenberg
29-11-2007, 09:23 AM
I have looked at them, and I am not impressed, in comparison to old location.
The only place at walking distance is Quality Hotel, which is further and more expensive then Forrest Inn used to be.

Why did they have to move to Woden???

Charles
29-11-2007, 04:32 PM
Hi all, regarding the move, the simple reason was that the Italio Australian Club did not want the tournament in 2008. They did not provide a quotation for 2008 as they wish to close the club for Good Friday- traditionally they lose money on the tournament.

We also surveyed players last year and found they felt the old venue had the following issues:
o No access to food facilities on site,
o Poor lighting,
o Too much noise in main hall, and
o Poor analysis facilities.

There were no other facilities in the Manuka/Kingston area that could support the tournament.

The Hellenic Club is a venue which provides the best player outcomes for the tournament. We have physically separate rooms for the main playing hall, arbiter room, commentry/analysis room and a play room. A variety of venues across canberra were considered some of which were cost prohibitive - Rydges $43,000 and Canberra Convention Centre $63,000 others of which did not provide the facilities players said they would like.

We have put up on the website the bus services that are related to start times. The buses which run from Civic to Woden in 15 minutes every 15 minutes. The walk from the Woden terminus is 200m. There are plenty of accommodation options in Civic for players.

We realise that we will not be able to satisy everyone but with negotiating rates we believe that we have done what we can to help players.

I would be interested to know how much cheaper the forrest inn was last year in comparison to our negotiated rate at the Quality Inn as there is currently only a $10 per night difference on their wotif rate compared to the Quality Inn negotiated rate ($140 vs $150). The forest inn wotif rate also requires that you stay a minimum of 3 nights.

There is also a spreadsheet attached which lists all hotel options in the inner south and woden regions for people who want wider options. If there is anything else that will assist players please do not hesitate to let us know. Email can be directed to info@doeberlcup.com.au .

Watto
29-11-2007, 05:44 PM
There is also a spreadsheet attached which lists all hotel options in the inner south and woden regions for people who want wider options. If there is anything else that will assist players please do not hesitate to let us know. Email can be directed to info@doeberlcup.com.au .
Thanks for all the information Charles. Much appreciated.

Phil Bourke
29-11-2007, 10:04 PM
Thanks Charles, I am sure that the Victor Lodge crew will soon adjust, it isn't that far away, and I am sure there will be a few there with cars :)

Denis_Jessop
30-11-2007, 12:14 AM
traditionally they lose money on the tournament.

Just a minor correction. Until this year the Italo-Australian club provided the venue free as part of their community obligation. So the question of loss or profit was irrelevant.

DJ

Charles
30-11-2007, 07:01 AM
Just a minor correction. Until this year the Italo-Australian club provided the venue free as part of their community obligation. So the question of loss or profit was irrelevant.

DJ

Hi Denis, the use of community obligation funds may indeed be the case, I am not aware of details of the past financial dealings with the club. My statement was based on the meeting we had with them where they said that they could not afford to absorb a loss of the magnitude of 2007 again.

Their main issue was apparently the amount of staff salaries paid for the public holidays especially good friday. Maybe the amount was too much for their community fund - couldnt really comment on that aspect of their finances. At the end of the day they didnt want to even put in a quote to have us pay them to run the event there. We were disappointed at not having it as an option for consideration.

Igor_Goldenberg
30-11-2007, 10:27 AM
Hi all, regarding the move, the simple reason was that the Italio Australian Club did not want the tournament in 2008. They did not provide a quotation for 2008 as they wish to close the club for Good Friday- traditionally they lose money on the tournament.

We also surveyed players last year and found they felt the old venue had the following issues:
o No access to food facilities on site,
o Poor lighting,
o Too much noise in main hall, and
o Poor analysis facilities.

There were no other facilities in the Manuka/Kingston area that could support the tournament.

The Hellenic Club is a venue which provides the best player outcomes for the tournament. We have physically separate rooms for the main playing hall, arbiter room, commentry/analysis room and a play room. A variety of venues across canberra were considered some of which were cost prohibitive - Rydges $43,000 and Canberra Convention Centre $63,000 others of which did not provide the facilities players said they would like.

We have put up on the website the bus services that are related to start times. The buses which run from Civic to Woden in 15 minutes every 15 minutes. The walk from the Woden terminus is 200m. There are plenty of accommodation options in Civic for players.

We realise that we will not be able to satisy everyone but with negotiating rates we believe that we have done what we can to help players.

I would be interested to know how much cheaper the forrest inn was last year in comparison to our negotiated rate at the Quality Inn as there is currently only a $10 per night difference on their wotif rate compared to the Quality Inn negotiated rate ($140 vs $150). The forest inn wotif rate also requires that you stay a minimum of 3 nights.

There is also a spreadsheet attached which lists all hotel options in the inner south and woden regions for people who want wider options. If there is anything else that will assist players please do not hesitate to let us know. Email can be directed to info@doeberlcup.com.au .

I appreciate the problems in organizing a tournament, suitable venue being one of the most difficult. It is usually an issue that makes or breaks tournament financially.

Forrest Inn cost was about 105-110$ per night. I also liked the proximity (next door) to the playing hall, as well as Manuka being probably the best restaurant area in Canberra.
700m is still a reasonable distance. I am afraid that lack (or even absence) of cheap accommodation in close proximity might discourage some players.
Let's hope it works out alright.

Charles
30-11-2007, 12:18 PM
Thanks for your comments and understand your concerns.

I have some small amount of good news which is that it is only 200 metres from the Quality Inn (our website designer was relying on global information from Canberra Tourism that was incorrect - a change will be made).

I agree we will have to wait and see if it is a factor which influences people - particularly when players see the overall improvement in playing conditions/rooms etc.

I would also note that the Woden area has grown significantly and there are a number of excellent places to eat within the same walking distance as Manuka was from the Italio Club. The Hellenic Club has also a variety of food places that we will be putting up on the website in the next month or two for people to see what is available.

We are in it for the long haul so will keep trying to build a good tournament to attend over easter.

Afitz
01-12-2007, 01:37 PM
I remember the Hellenic club from the Aus Jnrs that was held there in 2001 and the venue itself was very good and indeed did have the seperate rooms for playing, analysis etc. Since then i know the place has undergone a huge amount of redevelopment which will make the place even nicer. The main bistro down stairs is priced well and has a good variety of meals also. All in all i believe a very good venue. Close to many other amenities also.

I look forward to coming up in 08 and playing in the event and seeing everyone in the chess community for the yearly Canberra catch up :)

Jim_Flood
05-12-2007, 03:54 PM
Just a quick one Charles. Parking around Woden on a working day (possibly the first day of the tournament?) is the absolute pits. However, it is free on weekends and public holidays.

Late in November, the Hellenic Club obtained control of a considerable number of parking spaces for its members and guests. It may be worthwhile asking the Club if these are available for spectators of the Premier Event. Also as it is Easter a lot of public servants who work in the area piss off down the coast so parking may not be too bad.

Trent Parker
07-12-2007, 01:57 AM
As for accomodation. Canberra City Backpackers and City walk hotel have cheap accomodation and are close to the Canberra City bus platforms. Canberra city backpackers has its pluses and minuses compared to victor lodge.... I find the rooms/beds better than victor Lodge. But you dont get the free brekky that you do at victor lodge. And if you get a window facing the street it can be a bit noisy with the hotel downstairs....

Denis_Jessop
07-12-2007, 03:24 PM
As for accomodation. Canberra City Backpackers and City walk hotel have cheap accomodation and are close to the Canberra City bus platforms. Canberra city backpackers has its pluses and minuses compared to victor lodge.... I find the rooms/beds better than victor Lodge. But you dont get the free brekky that you do at victor lodge. And if you get a window facing the street it can be a bit noisy with the hotel downstairs....

That's right and there is an express bus service from the City to Woden with the Woden terminus just near the Hellenic club.

DJ

Charles
10-12-2007, 10:23 AM
Hi all,

Just a note that the website now includes a downloadable excel spreadsheet of the accommodation options available in Civic (City) about 6 minutes by car or 15 minutes by public transport.

www.doeberlcup.com.au/accommodation

Jim, will follow up with the CEO on the car parking question for spectators for the Thursday Premier event.

ER
10-12-2007, 02:35 PM
Just a note that the website now includes a downloadable excel spreadsheet .

Thanks Charles, I have already booked at Statesman. I was impressed by their willingness to help! They told me they also have a complimentary bus service for Woden, around 9 am every morning, but I think I will stick to my walking patterns as much as I can there!
Cheers and good luck!

PS I am sending my entry fee sometime tomorrow! I hope I am not late!

sleepless
10-12-2007, 05:32 PM
I noticed that there is a 'player sign in closes...' time on the entry form. Is that to finalise the first round? What happens if you pre-pay and don't roll up until the start?

Charles
11-12-2007, 12:53 PM
I noticed that there is a 'player sign in closes...' time on the entry form. Is that to finalise the first round? What happens if you pre-pay and don't roll up until the start?


Players are expected to arrive prior to the sign-in closure time for each tournament. There will be a sign-in table for them to indicate that they are present for the first round. Players who do not arrive before the sign-in closure time but who have pre-paid will not be included in the first round pairings. Should they arrive prior to the first round start time they will be paired, where possible with other players who may not have made the sign-in timeframe. We cannot cater for every contingency but will attempt to be as flexible as possible whilst still aiming to begin each round at the scheduled start time.

Denis_Jessop
11-12-2007, 07:21 PM
Players are expected to arrive prior to the sign-in closure time for each tournament. There will be a sign-in table for them to indicate that they are present for the first round. Players who do not arrive before the sign-in closure time but who have pre-paid will not be included in the first round pairings. Should they arrive prior to the first round start time they will be paired, where possible with other players who may not have made the sign-in timeframe. We cannot cater for every contingency but will attempt to be as flexible as possible whilst still aiming to begin each round at the scheduled start time.

I think this is a good move and will make the start much less chaotic. A few years ago, when the ACT Sport and Recreation Minister Ted Quinlan was giving his opening speech at the Doeberl Cup, he expressed amazement that we (as we then were :) ) allowed entries right up to the last minute.

DJ

Charles
13-12-2007, 02:52 PM
Hi all. Just to let you know the first carpooler has subscribed at http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/carpooling.html . Note that we are providing this as information only. People who are looking for a lift or to offer a lift will be recorded on this page with us passing on details of prospective passengers etc to the registered player. We will then leave it up to players to directly discuss pickup points/finances etc.

Charles
17-12-2007, 08:12 PM
Jim, In answer to the question about parking it is free for all days except for the Thursday. Members of the Hellenic Club can use the Hellenic Club parking on the Thursday (It only costs $6.60 to park there). For the remainder of the parking it is pay parking from 8:30 to 5:30 - we will just have to wait and see how many people knock off early on the Thursday to get down the coast for the long weekend.

MichaelBaron
17-12-2007, 09:47 PM
700m is still a reasonable distance. I am afraid that lack (or even absence) of cheap accommodation in close proximity might discourage some players.
Let's hope it works out alright.

700m is a long way to walk?:hmm:

Charles
18-12-2007, 08:05 AM
700m is a long way to walk?:hmm:

Yes I corrected that in a previous post - we were working off Canberra Bureau distances the actual distance is 200m. The website has been updated as well.

Trent Parker
18-12-2007, 11:25 PM
700m is a long way to walk?:hmm: Not really. Probably about the distance of Victor Lodge to the Italo australian club i think.

Watto
19-12-2007, 08:29 AM
lol. Michael Baron doesn't think that 700m is a long way to walk... he was querying Igor's suggestion that it might be!

Looking forward to the tournament. :)

MichaelBaron
19-12-2007, 12:07 PM
lol. Michael Baron doesn't think that 700m is a long way to walk... he was querying Igor's suggestion that it might be!

Looking forward to the tournament. :)

Exactly! :D

And i invite those who think 700m is too long to walk to join me for my morning jogging sessions at Caulfield Park. I will train them for Doebrl. I can not promise to improve their chess..but at least they will be assured of making it to the venue :lol:

Desmond
20-12-2007, 08:53 PM
Exactly! :D

And i invite those who think 700m is too long to walk to join me for my morning jogging sessions at Caulfield Park. I will train them for Doebrl. I can not promise to improve their chess..but at least they will be assured of making it to the venue :lol:
Laugh it up Michael, not everyone is young and fit, and nor will you be forever.

ER
21-12-2007, 12:26 AM
Exactly! :D

And i invite those who think 700m is too long to walk to join me for my morning jogging sessions at Caulfield Park.

Hi Michael
I prefer my Elwood to Port Melbourne then back to St Kilda, Elwood almost daily half jogging half power walking routine!
By the way how about having a Chess players' team participating in Watto's event in May? No SA comments here please, I am serious! :whistle:
Cheers and good luck! :)

MichaelBaron
21-12-2007, 06:15 PM
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4335

Axiom
21-12-2007, 06:33 PM
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4335
Thanks Michael, interesting article, although no real surprises there for me.
Now whats happening with your blog?
No entries since April these year :(

Denis_Jessop
21-12-2007, 07:49 PM
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4335

This is also useful ammunition for the argument that chess should be treated as a sport.

DJ

MichaelBaron
21-12-2007, 09:52 PM
Thanks Michael, interesting article, although no real surprises there for me.
Now whats happening with your blog?
No entries since April these year :(

I am too busy to maintain it..it is dead i guess :(

Axiom
21-12-2007, 10:18 PM
I am too busy to maintain it..it is dead i guess :(
Sorry to hear that, its always sad when a chessblog dies.:(

Charles
28-12-2007, 11:51 AM
Happy to say that we have 34 registered players in the premier including a recent entry from IM David Smerdon. Our goal is to get the 20 players from different federations required to remove the 'other federations' norming requirements for individuals. I currently have requests from a number of players for billeting in Canberra. If there are any ACT people out there who can help with billeting please get in contact at ceb@o2c.com.au

Charles
07-01-2008, 04:07 PM
I am pleased to announce that we have half filled the premier event and have registered the requisite number of international players (20 FIDE rated including 10 GM and IM) to meet norming tournament requirements for the tournament as a whole (assuming they all turn up). This will exempt individuals from having to play players from four federations to achieve a title norm. :)

Charles
13-01-2008, 09:40 AM
Just a quick note that we are producing TShirts and Polo tops for the Doeberl Cup this year. The design and order form can be accessed from the front page of the website. These will have to be pre-ordered as we do not anticipate having any for sale at the venue. We are still working on the exact cut off date with the company delivering them so that we can have them in time for pickup at the venue. This order cut-off date will be promulgated when known.

Igor_Goldenberg
22-01-2008, 10:15 AM
Does anyone know about anything in walking distance (apart from Quality Hotel).
They ran out of normal rooms and are charging $250 per night for 1br appartment

ER
22-01-2008, 03:31 PM
Does anyone know about anything in walking distance (apart from Quality Hotel).
They ran out of normal rooms and are charging $250 per night for 1br appartment

Hi Igor, try Statesman's, maybe its a bit expensive but you should see the rooms and service man, its unreal!!!!
Cheers and good luck!

Denis_Jessop
22-01-2008, 04:35 PM
Hi Igor, try Statesman's, maybe its a bit expensive but you should see the rooms and service man, its unreal!!!!
Cheers and good luck!

Also the Statesman is in Curtin and is about 2.5km in a straight line (I don't know how far by accessible routes) from the venue so it requires a generous view of "walking distance" for it to qualify:)

DJ

Igor_Goldenberg
22-01-2008, 05:32 PM
Hi Igor, try Statesman's, maybe its a bit expensive but you should see the rooms and service man, its unreal!!!!
Cheers and good luck!
Statesman is actually cheaper and looks to be higher class then "Quality hotel" (which is, in fact, a motel), but as Dennis noted, it might be a bit too far.

arosar
22-01-2008, 06:55 PM
So this Doeberl Cup is going to be more expensive than ever.

AR

Denis_Jessop
22-01-2008, 07:07 PM
So this Doeberl Cup is going to be more expensive than ever.

AR

Not necessarily. There is an express bus route from Civic Centre, where there is cheaper accommodation, to the Woden bus interchange which is virtually next door to the Hellenic Club. Let's be positive for a change, Amiel :)

DJ

Jim_Flood
22-01-2008, 07:35 PM
Also the Statesman is in Curtin and is about 2.5km in a straight line (I don't know how far by accessible routes) from the venue so it requires a generous view of "walking distance" for it to qualify:)

DJ

Denis,

Anybody in reasonable health can walk from the Statesman Hotel to the venue in 20 minutes or less. It is relatively flat from the Statesman to the roundabout at Curtin Primary School and then about 100 meters on it gets a bit steeper - good to get the heart pumping on the walk back. Just remember to cross at the lights as we inconsiderate Canberra drivers could decide to take any Mexicans or Cockroaches out, particularly if they are using walking frames, just for the fun of it.

ER
22-01-2008, 08:55 PM
Denis,

Anybody in reasonable health can walk from the Statesman Hotel to the venue in 20 minutes or less. It is relatively flat from the Statesman to the roundabout at Curtin Primary School and then about 100 meters on it gets a bit steeper - good to get the heart pumping on the walk back. Just remember to cross at the lights as we inconsiderate Canberra drivers could decide to take any Mexicans or Cockroaches out, particularly if they are using walking frames, just for the fun of it.

thanks for all this useful info, however, Mexicans do not fear such antics, cause they simply use their wings to fly to their destinations!
Also, the very nice lady at the reception, told me that there is a courtesy bus to the venue from the Statesman, as well as some sort of public transport, if such a thing exists in the public servants capital of Aus! :)
Cheers and good luck! :)

pax
23-01-2008, 01:17 AM
I used to live in Curtin, and there are probably still regular buses down both Theodore St and Carruthers St which would get to Woden in about five minutes.

Ian Rout
23-01-2008, 08:03 AM
I used to live in Curtin, and there are probably still regular buses down both Theodore St and Carruthers St which would get to Woden in about five minutes.
There is only one on the weekend/public holidays. Route 32 picks up at Curtin shops (a minute's walk at most from the Statesman) and the other end is also close to the Hellenic Club. It only runs once per hour, and not in the evenings, though as noted by others the back-up option of walking is not out of the question.

Igor_Goldenberg
23-01-2008, 09:56 AM
There is only one on the weekend/public holidays. Route 32 picks up at Curtin shops (a minute's walk at most from the Statesman) and the other end is also close to the Hellenic Club. It only runs once per hour, and not in the evenings, though as noted by others the back-up option of walking is not out of the question.

Thanks Ian,
Is there any info on the net about the route and schedule?

Ian Rout
23-01-2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks Ian,
Is there any info on the net about the route and schedule?
The site for ACTION is

http://www.action.act.gov.au/

and the direct link to route 32 which has times and a map is

http://www.action.act.gov.au/2006NewRoutes/Route_32.cfm

The route is numbered 32 in both directions. You should get on at the shops side of Carruthers St (near the traffic lights, Commonwealth Bank and Peter Blackshaw Real Estate) to go from Curtin to Woden, or the opposite side near the children's park and churches if you feel like a trip to Civic.

Note that during the holiday period the Sunday timetable applies.

As a complication, normal routes would run on the Thursday during the day and these are numbered 30 and 31. While these are different routes the 30 exactly overlaps route 32 in the section between Curtin shops and Woden.

For the more adventurous the Hughes bus (route 34) will probably get you within five to ten minutes walk of the Statesman.

ACTION is revamping all its routes but I understand the changes will not come into effect until April.

Ian Rout
23-01-2008, 10:49 AM
While I'm doing ACTION's PR, a single (adult) fare is $3, a "Faresaver" ten ride ticket is $22 and a weekly ticket $24.60. There is also an Off Peak Daily (which includes all day weekends and public holidays) for $4.10.

Concessions are half the above, except Off Peak which is $3.30. See the above link for acceptable ID for concessions.

Faresaver or weekly tickets may be more economic depending how much travelling you are doing, especially if it includes any sight-seeing, but they have to be pre-purchased from newsagents. Single and daily tickets can be bought on the bus.

Igor_Goldenberg
23-01-2008, 03:59 PM
Thank you

MichaelBaron
23-01-2008, 06:43 PM
Denis,

Anybody in reasonable health can walk from the Statesman Hotel to the venue in 20 minutes or less. It is relatively flat from the Statesman to the roundabout at Curtin Primary School and then about 100 meters on it gets a bit steeper - good to get the heart pumping on the walk back. Just remember to cross at the lights as we inconsiderate Canberra drivers could decide to take any Mexicans or Cockroaches out, particularly if they are using walking frames, just for the fun of it.

:) See after all my idea of having a competition that combines running and chess is not a bad one :confused:

ER
23-01-2008, 06:52 PM
Geeeeeeez you chess players are all a bloody lazy lot!!!! A whole bloody general meeting to find ways to save your butts a 20 minute walk!!!! Just shut up and walk you geeks! :P :owned: :wall: :D :whistle:
I 'll see you all there, Cheers and good luck!

Denis_Jessop
23-01-2008, 08:53 PM
Geeeeeeez you chess players are all a bloody lazy lot!!!! A whole bloody general meeting to find ways to save your butts a 20 minute walk!!!! Just shut up and walk you geeks! :P :owned: :wall: :D :whistle:
I 'll see you all there, Cheers and good luck!

It's not one 20minute walk. It's up to 18 20 minute walks if you're in the Premier and 14 if you're not. That's up to 6 hours' walking so the players who intend to do it had better start training now. They should also come prepared for the possibility of a once-in-a-100-year storm of the kind that came through that area about 35 years ago plus clothing to meet temperatures of anywhere between, say, 5 and 30. The possibility of snow is, however, remote (contrast Mt Buller in mid-summer).

Ian, you live around that area. Is there anything I've missed? :P :eek: :D :rolleyes: :owned:

DJ

PS The tournament itself is not to be missed :)

Ian Rout
24-01-2008, 08:34 AM
It's not one 20minute walk. It's up to 18 20 minute walks if you're in the Premier and 14 if you're not. That's up to 6 hours' walking so the players who intend to do it had better start training now. They should also come prepared for the possibility of a once-in-a-100-year storm of the kind that came through that area about 35 years ago plus clothing to meet temperatures of anywhere between, say, 5 and 30. The possibility of snow is, however, remote (contrast Mt Buller in mid-summer).

Ian, you live around that area. Is there anything I've missed? :P :eek: :D :rolleyes: :owned:

DJ

PS The tournament itself is not to be missed :)
5 degrees in late March is unlikely. 30 degrees or near it is not entirely out of the question though people would not be walking in the hottest parts of the day.

Canberra's average annual rainfall is about half that of the NSW south coast. I don't know about 35 years ago but there was a man killed by a falling tree on Theodore Street in a storm about two years ago. But then a large part of Denis's suburb was destroyed by bushfires five years ago - nowhere is guaranteed completely safe.

Igor_Goldenberg
24-01-2008, 01:56 PM
Geeeeeeez you chess players are all a bloody lazy lot!!!! A whole bloody general meeting to find ways to save your butts a 20 minute walk!!!! Just shut up and walk you geeks! :P :owned: :wall: :D :whistle:
I 'll see you all there, Cheers and good luck!
If I was coming to Canberra just by myself, I would not be concerned at all.

Charles
30-01-2008, 04:15 PM
Hi all,

I have followed up this issue and currently there have been no bookings for the Doeberl Cup at the Woden Quality Inn. They have 21 rooms currently put aside but people have to specifically mention and ask for the Doeberl Cup rate to access one of these rooms otherwise the hotel shows as booked out. A change over of staff may also have exacerbated the inability to book a room.

We have gone back to the motel and we have added a specific process and quotation number located at http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/accommodation.html to help players. There are 21 normal rooms at the $150 rate. The process for accessing the country comfort rooms at tuggeranong (also direct bus connection to woden) is also included in the website link I have posted above.

The relationship with the Stateman Hotel seems to be going OK from feedback so far.

ER
30-01-2008, 06:26 PM
The relationship with the Stateman Hotel seems to be going OK from feedback so far.

Absolutely thrilled with their attitude and willingness to help!
Cheers and good luck!

Igor_Goldenberg
30-01-2008, 09:17 PM
Hi all,

I have followed up this issue and currently there have been no bookings for the Doeberl Cup at the Woden Quality Inn. They have 21 rooms currently put aside but people have to specifically mention and ask for the Doeberl Cup rate to access one of these rooms otherwise the hotel shows as booked out. A change over of staff may also have exacerbated the inability to book a room.

We have gone back to the motel and we have added a specific process and quotation number located at http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/accommodation.html to help players. There are 21 normal rooms at the $150 rate. The process for accessing the country comfort rooms at tuggeranong (also direct bus connection to woden) is also included in the website link I have posted above.

The relationship with the Stateman Hotel seems to be going OK from feedback so far.

Thanks Charles,
I'll follow it up

Brian_Jones
01-02-2008, 03:14 PM
Chessbase article at http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4423

Charles
04-02-2008, 09:58 AM
Hi all, we have confirmed with the Polo top /TShirt printers that the cut off date for orders will be the 21st of February to ensure they are ready for pickup at the tournament. Order form is available on the website and they can be paid for on-line or through other methods described on the order form.

Charles
09-02-2008, 10:06 PM
Just to simplify the accommodation situation which seems to have sparked some discussion.

1. Bus routes run regularly in 15 minutes from Civic and Tuggeranong to within 100m of the venue.

2. The Quality Inn is 200m from the venue and has 74 rooms of which 25 are exclusively reserved (at the moment for participants) at a reduced rate.

3. The Statesman Hotel I have just measured and is 1.6km easy walk from the venue. It has a total of 64 rooms and has a courtesy bus from there to Woden (100m from venue) in the morning.

4. Re the Weather from the BBC website. In a Canberra March you can expect an average minimum temperature of 11 degrees and an average maximum of 24 degrees. We have an average of 8 hours daylight and 7 wet days. Nil Discomfort from Humidity. Sydney has 6 hours of daylight, min 17 max of 24 and 14 wet days. Melbourne has 6 hours of daylight, min 13 max 24 and 9 wet days. Both have moderate discomfort from Humidity. Brisbane has 7 hours of daylight, min of 19 max of 28, and 15 wet days with medium discomfort from humidity. So to summarise Canberra has more sun than brisbane, no humidity discomfort issues and less wet days than all of them. See you here. :lol:

Oepty
10-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Just to simplify the accommodation situation which seems to have sparked some discussion.

1. Bus routes run regularly in 15 minutes from Civic and Tuggeranong to within 100m of the venue.

2. The Quality Inn is 200m from the venue and has 74 rooms of which 25 are exclusively reserved (at the moment for participants) at a reduced rate.

3. The Statesman Hotel I have just measured and is 1.6km easy walk from the venue. It has a total of 64 rooms and has a courtesy bus from there to Woden (100m from venue) in the morning.

4. Re the Weather from the BBC website. In a Canberra March you can expect an average minimum temperature of 11 degrees and an average maximum of 24 degrees. We have an average of 8 hours daylight and 7 wet days. Nil Discomfort from Humidity. Sydney has 6 hours of daylight, min 17 max of 24 and 14 wet days. Melbourne has 6 hours of daylight, min 13 max 24 and 9 wet days. Both have moderate discomfort from Humidity. Brisbane has 7 hours of daylight, min of 19 max of 28, and 15 wet days with medium discomfort from humidity. So to summarise Canberra has more sun than brisbane, no humidity discomfort issues and less wet days than all of them. See you here. :lol:

How many rooms at the Quality Inn are still available?
Scott

Charles
13-02-2008, 07:39 AM
How many rooms at the Quality Inn are still available?
Scott

Hi, As of this morning (13 Feb) there were 7 rooms left for the night of the 19th and 13 rooms left for the nights of the 20-24th.

Oepty
13-02-2008, 04:59 PM
Thank you Charles. Still got to sort a couple of things out but I am hoping to take on of those rooms and play in the minor.
Scott

ER
14-02-2008, 01:05 PM
Flights booked!
Hotel booked!
Entry fee paid!
Doeberl here we go, here we go, here we go! :clap:
Cheers and good luck!!!

Davidflude
16-02-2008, 11:31 AM
Wow 72 entries in and a wait list as well. Not to mention a heap of Grand Masters. The Premier looks better and better.

One point is that the wait listed player has ratings that are too high for him to play in the major. Maybe you should politely get a marginally rated player in the premier to drop down to the major.

Now to talk about the major. So far the number of entries looks relatively small.
On thing worth thinking about for the committee is whether to increase the number of rounds from 7 to 9 next year matching the premier.

Another point is that there are only a few entries for the Senior. I could of course play either Major or Senior. What will you do if you only get a few entries for the Senior. For example will you play it as a round robin or double round robin.

pax
16-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Wow 72 entries in and a wait list as well. Not to mention a heap of Grand Masters. The Premier looks better and better.

One point is that the wait listed player has ratings that are too high for him to play in the major. Maybe you should politely get a marginally rated player in the premier to drop down to the major.

Now to talk about the major. So far the number of entries looks relatively small.
On thing worth thinking about for the committee is whether to increase the number of rounds from 7 to 9 next year matching the premier.

Another point is that there are only a few entries for the Senior. I could of course play either Major or Senior. What will you do if you only get a few entries for the Senior. For example will you play it as a round robin or double round robin.

It is odd that there are apparently 8 places left in the Major, yet our latest Grandmaster Zong-Yuan Zhao is on the waiting list. Can someone explain this situation?

I wouldn't worry too much about the Major and Minor. There is still more than a month to go, and it is natural that those players will decide a little later than the Premier players. I would be very surprised to see fewer than 50 players in either supporting event.

Tony Dowden
16-02-2008, 07:20 PM
It is odd that there are apparently 8 places left in the Major, yet our latest Grandmaster Zong-Yuan Zhao is on the waiting list. Can someone explain this situation?

I wouldn't worry too much about the Major and Minor. There is still more than a month to go, and it is natural that those players will decide a little later than the Premier players. I would be very surprised to see fewer than 50 players in either supporting event.

Well, Zhao is unusually modest for an Aussie!

Are you playing David? It will be interesting to catch up with you 25 years on ...

Bill Gletsos
16-02-2008, 07:24 PM
Well, Zhao is unusually modest for an Aussie!

Are you playing David? It will be interesting to catch up with you 25 years on ...Pax isnt David.

Bill Gletsos
16-02-2008, 07:25 PM
It is odd that there are apparently 8 places left in the Major, yet our latest Grandmaster Zong-Yuan Zhao is on the waiting list. Can someone explain this situation?I assume you mean Premier.

Charles
16-02-2008, 07:41 PM
It is odd that there are apparently 8 places left in the Major, yet our latest Grandmaster Zong-Yuan Zhao is on the waiting list. Can someone explain this situation?

I wouldn't worry too much about the Major and Minor. There is still more than a month to go, and it is natural that those players will decide a little later than the Premier players. I would be very surprised to see fewer than 50 players in either supporting event.


On the issue of Zong-Yuan I have been advised by Ian Rogers that he is unable to commit to the Doeberl until he understands the impact the GAMSAT test he is doing earlier in that week will have on him. So we have put him on the waiting list to have him in the tournament if he is available.

Charles
16-02-2008, 08:01 PM
Wow 72 entries in and a wait list as well. Not to mention a heap of Grand Masters. The Premier looks better and better.

One point is that the wait listed player has ratings that are too high for him to play in the major. Maybe you should politely get a marginally rated player in the premier to drop down to the major.

Now to talk about the major. So far the number of entries looks relatively small.
On thing worth thinking about for the committee is whether to increase the number of rounds from 7 to 9 next year matching the premier.

Another point is that there are only a few entries for the Senior. I could of course play either Major or Senior. What will you do if you only get a few entries for the Senior. For example will you play it as a round robin or double round robin.

Hi and thanks for the questions. You will note on the schedule page that we are holding open at organisers discretion an additional 20 places for the Premier event. Our focus for this year is to provide a Premier that allows players the conditions to contend for title norms. Therefore we decided to provide 80 places on a first come first serve basis with a minimum 1800 ACF or FIDE rating required. We have held the additional 20 places for players who wish to register for the Premier and who may strengthen the tournament towards the title goals. Once we have the last eight entries to our current cap of 80 we will then allocate additional positions on a discretionary basis to strengthen the tournament. Zhao is currently only on the waiting list as he has some exams which may or may not prohibit him playing the Doeberl. If he can make it there will be a position for him in the tournament.

On the issue of the major being nine rounds that is a matter that we can survey the players on during the tournament. The Premier was increased to nine as norming titles could not be earned in the previous seven round event.


The senior tournament is a learning experience for us. I have a personal view that chess is a game for life. Therefore we need events like the U1200's (2 days) for new players and a Seniors for older players who enjoy their chess but dont want to necessarily play against players alot younger than themselves. It is hard to find avenues to get marketing materials to players in this age group but they have alot they can give to the sport and alot they can still get out of it. I would like to see the Seniors go ahead but will be guided by Shaun our Director of Play as we get closer to the tournament and see the numbers that we have (We still have over a month to go). We have committed to providing all Senior players access to their appropriate tournament (and this will include the Premier) if the Seniors does not go ahead. They can also opt for a refund of entry fees if that is their preference.

If anyone has any suggestions for getting messages out to over 50's chess players they will be greatfully received.

Hope this clears some things up.

Denis_Jessop
16-02-2008, 10:08 PM
Hi and thanks for the questions.

<snip>

The senior tournament is a learning experience for us. I have a personal view that chess is a game for life. Therefore we need events like the U1200's (2 days) for new players and a Seniors for older players who enjoy their chess but dont want to necessarily play against players alot younger than themselves. It is hard to find avenues to get marketing materials to players in this age group but they have alot they can give to the sport and alot they can still get out of it. I would like to see the Seniors go ahead but will be guided by Shaun our Director of Play as we get closer to the tournament and see the numbers that we have (We still have over a month to go). We have committed to providing all Senior players access to their appropriate tournament (and this will include the Premier) if the Seniors does not go ahead. They can also opt for a refund of entry fees if that is their preference.

If anyone has any suggestions for getting messages out to over 50's chess players they will be greatfully received.

Hope this clears some things up.

The seniors event is, I think, somewhat unpredictable. It has been advertised at the last two Doeberl Cups ( 2007 and 2006) and the entry was modest, as I recall.

Likewise, entries in Australian Seniors Championships, which adhere to the FIDE definition of "senior" - 60+ - have also not been large.

Seniors chess has really not taken off in Australia compared with veterans vents in other sports.

For example, I have been actively competing in ACF veteran cycling for the last 25 years and currently the ACT Veteran Cycling Club has about 200 members - many more than all the Chess clubs in the ACT combined.

On the other hand I haven't played much chess in the last 25 years - one between 1983 and 1996 and none for the last few years.

There may be all sorts of reasons why a 70 + year old would prefer a physical sport to a mental sport. However I can say that, for my part, fear of playing juniors is not one of them. My own view is that that attitude is silly anyway and is mainly confined to middle-aged and younger adults who don't want to lose rating points. Players over 60 (the real seniors) are going to lose rating points to almost everyone.

I also feel that very few seniors other than regular club players are likely to want to play a fairly gruelling 7-round weekender. Some seniors like me don't much want to play drawn-out one round a week events either. In both cases, stamina and variability of performance, respectively, are factors.

Having said all that, I would like to see seniors chess (but 60+ rather than 50) become a feature of Australian chess events, even to the extent of there being a Seniors Division on the ACF Grand Prix.

DJ

Charles
19-02-2008, 07:30 AM
Located about 5km from the venue, another cheap accommodation option that has been identified for the tournament is the Best Weston in Narrabundah. They have two room, four person apartments as one of their options.

http://sundown.bestwestern.com.au/rates.aspx

One of the players has a room there and is paying $175/night with four people staying there.

Tony Dowden
20-02-2008, 08:41 AM
Seniors chess has really not taken off in Australia compared with veterans vents in other sports.

There may be all sorts of reasons why a 70 + year old would prefer a physical sport to a mental sport. However I can say that, for my part, fear of playing juniors is not one of them. My own view is that that attitude is silly anyway and is mainly confined to middle-aged and younger adults who don't want to lose rating points. Players over 60 (the real seniors) are going to lose rating points to almost everyone.

I also feel that very few seniors other than regular club players are likely to want to play a fairly gruelling 7-round weekender. Some seniors like me don't much want to play drawn-out one round a week events either. In both cases, stamina and variability of performance, respectively, are factors.

Having said all that, I would like to see seniors chess (but 60+ rather than 50) become a feature of Australian chess events, even to the extent of there being a Seniors Division on the ACF Grand Prix.

DJ

I generally agree with Denis' post. I'm almost 50 and certainly don't see the need to be classified as a 'senior'. NZ and many other countries follow the FIDE definition of 60 for a senior, which is surely more logical.

On physical vs mental activity: research on senescence (aging) has increasingly identified clear benefits of both forms of activity. In fact a judicious mix of chess, walking, swiming, golf, and the likes of sudoku or crosswords (others might prefer arguing about evolution and creation science - lol) is probably just what the doctor would order for the 60-90 brigade.

Denis raises another important point: playing several games in one day is much harder and less pleasant or fulfilling as one gets older. As such, a 'senior-friendly' schedule (and venue and locality) is likely to be important when organising a senior event.

peter_parr
20-02-2008, 10:30 AM
Please note in the list of Doeberl Cup winners the 2005 Doeberl Cup was jointly won by A.Wohl and I.Rogers.
There was no count-back in that year and both names are engraved on the large Doeberl Cup trophy.

Peter Parr (OAM)
20 times Chief Arbiter Doeberl Cup

Charles
20-02-2008, 05:56 PM
I generally agree with Denis' post. I'm almost 50 and certainly don't see the need to be classified as a 'senior'. NZ and many other countries follow the FIDE definition of 60 for a senior, which is surely more logical.

On physical vs mental activity: research on senescence (aging) has increasingly identified clear benefits of both forms of activity. In fact a judicious mix of chess, walking, swiming, golf, and the likes of sudoku or crosswords (others might prefer arguing about evolution and creation science - lol) is probably just what the doctor would order for the 60-90 brigade.

Denis raises another important point: playing several games in one day is much harder and less pleasant or fulfilling as one gets older. As such, a 'senior-friendly' schedule (and venue and locality) is likely to be important when organising a senior event.

OK so lets work with the assumption that the doeberl is a tournament that seniors would like to attend and the Hellenic Club and Canberra are a good venue (tony you can let me know this after this year). How would it work well? As a starting parameter infrastrucutre costs do not change as long as the rounds run between 9am Thursday to 1pm Monday.

So how about six rounds across five days. Do you still look at the 90/30 time control or move back to a sixty/ten?

1pm Thursday to co-incide with start of the Premier. Two rounds on Friday 1pm and 7pm with the other tournaments. Saturday 1 round - 3pm? Same with Sunday and Monday 10am round.

Another alternative is to go to five rounds with just one per day and maybe try one of these pooling events that I have seen recently.

Thoughts?

Denis_Jessop
20-02-2008, 06:56 PM
OK so lets work with the assumption that the doeberl is a tournament that seniors would like to attend and the Hellenic Club and Canberra are a good venue (tony you can let me know this after this year). How would it work well? As a starting parameter infrastrucutre costs do not change as long as the rounds run between 9am Thursday to 1pm Monday.

So how about six rounds across five days. Do you still look at the 90/30 time control or move back to a sixty/ten?

1pm Thursday to co-incide with start of the Premier. Two rounds on Friday 1pm and 7pm with the other tournaments. Saturday 1 round - 3pm? Same with Sunday and Monday 10am round.

Another alternative is to go to five rounds with just one per day and maybe try one of these pooling events that I have seen recently.

Thoughts?

Charles

Thanks for ignoring my post completely:evil: - I only live here. The first thing you have to do is to revise your definition of "senior". Just because you and Shaun are well under 50 and it seems "awfully old" to you doesn't mean that it really is old or in any sense "senior" in chess terms. So it should be the FIDE-recognised 60+.

If you had any experience in organising chess tournaments you would know that 6 rounds is a pretty silly idea as even numbers don't go well in a Swiss. Five rounds over 4 days would be better and a "rapid time limit of 60m + increment is also not welcome. The slower/longer the time limit the better. it gives us oldies time for a power nap during play :D. So 90m +30 or 60 spm is the best way to go.

DJ

Capablanca-Fan
20-02-2008, 07:51 PM
If you had any experience in organising chess tournaments you would know that 6 rounds is a pretty silly idea as even numbers don't go well in a Swiss.
Why not? An even number of rounds means there is a good chance of colour equalization, and also symmetry in the round times over the two days.

sleepless
20-02-2008, 07:58 PM
[QUOTE=Denis_Jessop]The slower/longer the time limit the better. it gives us oldies time for a power nap during play :D. So 90m +30 or 60 spm is the best way to go.

I agree. It's also incredibly annoying to be locked out of 90 30 tournaments here (SA) just because I'm not in the higher rating band where they're offered.

Charles
20-02-2008, 08:34 PM
Charles

Thanks for ignoring my post completely:evil: - I only live here. The first thing you have to do is to revise your definition of "senior". Just because you and Shaun are well under 50 and it seems "awfully old" to you doesn't mean that it really is old or in any sense "senior" in chess terms. So it should be the FIDE-recognised 60+.

If you had any experience in organising chess tournaments you would know that 6 rounds is a pretty silly idea as even numbers don't go well in a Swiss. Five rounds over 4 days would be better and a "rapid time limit of 60m + increment is also not welcome. The slower/longer the time limit the better. it gives us oldies time for a power nap during play :D. So 90m +30 or 60 spm is the best way to go.

DJ

Denis,

Didnt in any way mean to annoy you - just followed on from Tony's post which included your post. Just by way of perspective my view comes from looking for increased involvement of all levels of player. This year the seniors is set at 50 only because last year thats where it was.

Myself and my business partner are putting up a fairly substantial financial commitement for this tournament because we believe in Chess. I think we have demonstrated that we are willing to be innovative and work to give players what they want. We introduced the U1200's to cater for the new player end addressing the inevitable (when easter starts school holidays) family issue of losing the whole weekend to a chess tournament before starting the week holiday down the coast. The discussion on the seniors is at the other end and as my experience is primarily towards juniors I am seeking any ideas which will make this more attractive.

For me the age limit is neither here nor there. I think that the term senior is also really under threat in our society. My parents continue to work well into their 60's by chioce and if family genes play out will likely work into their 70's in some capacity. I play Masters AFL with peope over 60. I think this will the norm for my generation.

In 2009 I would be happy to change it to 60 but would be concerned if we couldnt get a tournament up due to numbers. It may be that 50-60's generally wont play in the tournament anyway as I notice players in the Premier listing dates of birth that would make them eligible for the seniors event.

I am just looking for ideas and will certainly discuss it with those that register for the tournament as well.

Denis_Jessop
20-02-2008, 10:04 PM
Denis,

Didnt in any way mean to annoy you - just followed on from Tony's post which included your post. Just by way of perspective my view comes from looking for increased involvement of all levels of player. This year the seniors is set at 50 only because last year thats where it was.

Myself and my business partner are putting up a fairly substantial financial commitement for this tournament because we believe in Chess. I think we have demonstrated that we are willing to be innovative and work to give players what they want. We introduced the U1200's to cater for the new player end addressing the inevitable (when easter starts school holidays) family issue of losing the whole weekend to a chess tournament before starting the week holiday down the coast. The discussion on the seniors is at the other end and as my experience is primarily towards juniors I am seeking any ideas which will make this more attractive.

For me the age limit is neither here nor there. I think that the term senior is also really under threat in our society. My parents continue to work well into their 60's by chioce and if family genes play out will likely work into their 70's in some capacity. I play Masters AFL with peope over 60. I think this will the norm for my generation.

In 2009 I would be happy to change it to 60 but would be concerned if we couldnt get a tournament up due to numbers. It may be that 50-60's generally wont play in the tournament anyway as I notice players in the Premier listing dates of birth that would make them eligible for the seniors event.

I am just looking for ideas and will certainly discuss it with those that register for the tournament as well.

Charles

I'm sorry that I got a bit testy. I do appreciate that you are strongly supporting the Doeberl Cup and are looking for improvements in the format. I also realise that this year's format is fixed - the one thing that can't be done is to alter the rules at the last moment. Moreover, you virtually inherited the seniors event from the two previous years when it began with sponsorship from Fischerbooks in 2006 on condition that the starting age be 50 (or possibly even younger - I don't recall).

As far as the concept of "seniors" or "veterans" or "masters" (all terms used for sports that involve non-youngsters) is concerned, you are right about the need for some re-assessment. I'm not sure that I'd go along with working well beyond 65 but that is a personal thing. Professional classical musicians at the top go on into their 90s on occasions for the sheer love of their profession. But on the other side of the coin, in some sports people are "veterans" at an absurdly young age, For example in road cycling the starting age is 35. This makes some sense at the club level in that the idea is to allow participants to move from all-in competition to veteran competition without a break. But riders of 35 are capable of riding at top professional level in Europe and several do.

The point of that digression was to illustrate that it is difficult to arrive at a satisfactory age to define "senior". In the case of chess FIDE has chosen 60 which I think is reasonable for chess, especially if the idea is to keep much older players interested as 50 yos are generally much better able to deal with the pressures of a chess game that 60s or 70s players. Paradoxically, I feel much more able to handle vet. cycling competition than chess at age 72. That's because veteran cycling is run either in grades according to ability or in handicaps, also assessed according to ability, or in age groups of 5 years each.

Seniors chess is an all-in affair even at the top level. That, itself is a deterrent to all but the hardiest and probably partly explains the small fields that seniors events attract event in the Australian Senior Championships. Another may be just that there are not many players actively involved at those ages. In the ACT we don't even have many adults in the 25 - 50 age range active these days, probably because of changed social conditions aver the last 20-odd years.

I hope that these comments are a helpful addition to your ammunition for next year :)

DJ

Denis_Jessop
20-02-2008, 10:07 PM
Why not? An even number of rounds means there is a good chance of colour equalization, and also symmetry in the round times over the two days.

It's well recognised that an even number of rounds is not good. There is a chance of colour equalisation, though I'd not describe it as good, and if you don't get, say, a 3/3 split in a 6-rounder, you get a 4/2.

DJ

Igor_Goldenberg
21-02-2008, 08:19 AM
Why not? An even number of rounds means there is a good chance of colour equalization, and also symmetry in the round times over the two days.
Traditionally the reason for odd number of rounds (in a swiss tournament, you always get odd number in round-robin) is to insure that colour difference for everyone is exactly one. It is very unlikely to be three.
In case of even number of rounds, you are as likely to have difference of 2 as to have same number of black and white.
However, it is only one factor and it might not be as important as some others.

Denis_Jessop
21-02-2008, 10:26 AM
Traditionally the reason for odd number of rounds (in a swiss tournament, you always get odd number in round-robin) is to insure that colour difference for everyone is exactly one. It is very unlikely to be three.
In case of even number of rounds, you are as likely to have difference of 2 as to have same number of black and white.
However, it is only one factor and it might not be as important as some others.

That's true and the FIDE Swiss Rules forbid a colour difference of greater than two except in the last round for a player with a score of more than 50%. This must be regarded as quite an important matter as swisses with an even number of rounds are pretty rare.

DJ

pax
21-02-2008, 10:33 AM
Why not? An even number of rounds means there is a good chance of colour equalization, and also symmetry in the round times over the two days.
In a six round event, you have to accept that many players will receive a 4-2 colour split. This is virtually impossible to avoid, and while players are generally happy with, say, 4-3, they are likely to be quite unhappy with 4 blacks in six rounds.

Garvinator
21-02-2008, 10:51 AM
In a six round event, you have to accept that many players will receive a 4-2 colour split. This is virtually impossible to avoid, and while players are generally happy with, say, 4-3, they are likely to be quite unhappy with 4 blacks in six rounds.
I think if the choice is between six and seven rounds, of course seven rounds is going to be better in almost every case. Not only with colour statistic issues, but it is just more chess.

I think a better debating point is eight or seven rounds?

On the issue of the number of rounds for the seniors, I think an odd number of rounds is better. The reason being is that if you get 8 entries and have scheduled only 6 rounds, there could be no legal pairings in the last round. If seven rounds are scheduled, then it is just a round robin.

Capablanca-Fan
21-02-2008, 01:38 PM
Thanx for the logical responses.

Denis_Jessop
21-02-2008, 02:18 PM
I think if the choice is between six and seven rounds, of course seven rounds is going to be better in almost every case. Not only with colour statistic issues, but it is just more chess.

I think a better debating point is eight or seven rounds?

On the issue of the number of rounds for the seniors, I think an odd number of rounds is better. The reason being is that if you get 8 entries and have scheduled only 6 rounds, there could be no legal pairings in the last round. If seven rounds are scheduled, then it is just a round robin.

This raises a different issue in that clearly it would be virtually impossible to run an 8-player Swiss over 6 rounds. That problem is always likely to arise in the Seniors event on current participation rates around the country with the opportunity for only a few rounds. The final arrangement may depend on a consultative executive decision at the last moment. After all seniors tend to be less argumentative on these things as the choice of an Australian no. 1 rep for the World Seniors a couple of years ago showed.

With Seniors, the other problem that I see is that they are not going to want to play at fast time controls (say 60m plus increment) nor are they going to want to play a large number of rounds. Even 7 rounds in five days seems too many ( much younger players recognise the strain of playing two rounds a day) which is why I seriously suggested 5 rounds. That doesn't sound very many but it should work as a Swiss if the entry is not large and would give a more pleasant tournament all told.

Much of what I say here assumes that the seniors in question will be bona fide 60+ seniors (and that pun just came naturally:rolleyes: ). Older players' stamina is not what it was and concentration is more difficult.

DJ

Brian_Jones
21-02-2008, 02:37 PM
With Seniors, the other problem that I see is that they are not going to want to play at fast time controls (say 60m plus increment) nor are they going to want to play a large number of rounds. Even 7 rounds in five days seems too many ( much younger players recognise the strain of playing two rounds a day) which is why I seriously suggested 5 rounds. That doesn't sound very many but it should work as a Swiss if the entry is not large and would give a more pleasant tournament all told. DJ

Not sure I agree with this Denis. I am 60+ and play when I can (when not working! :) )

I played in the Senior Championship at Tuggeranong last year!

I prefer an all play all or 7, 9 or 11 round swiss.

Two rounds a day is OK. Time control 90/30 is OK.

arosar
21-02-2008, 02:45 PM
I just don't understand why youse old blokes have to be so bloody precious. What's the problem with being in among the regular crowd, young and old? I mean, just look at Viktor Kortchnoi.

AR

Ian Rout
21-02-2008, 03:17 PM
I think the problem with comparisons between chess and other sports for deciding "What is a senior?" is that the reasons for having a separate tournament are different.

In most sports a 60-year old can't meaningfully compete with someone half their age even if they used to be good, and it can even be dangerous to try. In chess a senior can play at a reasonable level and find competitive opposition even if they aren't quite as good as they once were. This is partly because of the game itself, in which deterioration is much less severe, and partly because the popular Open Swiss structure allows players with a range of skills and experience to participate in one tournament. A player who has retired and/or got rid of the kids and has more time to study could even be better at 60 than at 30.

Chess is really only difficult for older players when the time limits turn it into an overtly physical sport so that a player with, say, arthritis or Parkinson's loses a significant amount of time as a proportion even if it's small in absolute terms, or the schedule makes it tiring.

Hence the motivation to play in a seniors' event is not a need to play with players of similar declining standards but a desire to play with compatriots, or viewed another way to avoid younger players. So the only reason to have it at all is to attract players who would otherwise not participate, and so the limit should be set accordingly.

Of course some senior-qualified players might play in the main section because they actually find grumpy old men even more unendearing than juniors.

ER
21-02-2008, 04:01 PM
I think the problem with comparisons between chess and other sports for deciding "What is a senior?" is that the reasons for having a separate tournament are different.

In most sports a 60-year old can't meaningfully compete with someone half their age even if they used to be good, and it can even be dangerous to try. In chess a senior can play at a reasonable level and find competitive opposition even if they aren't quite as good as they once were. This is partly because of the game itself, in which deterioration is much less severe, and partly because the popular Open Swiss structure allows players with a range of skills and experience to participate in one tournament. A player who has retired and/or got rid of the kids and has more time to study could even be better at 60 than at 30.

Chess is really only difficult for older players when the time limits turn it into an overtly physical sport so that a player with, say, arthritis or Parkinson's loses a significant amount of time as a proportion even if it's small in absolute terms, or the schedule makes it tiring.

Hence the motivation to play in a seniors' event is not a need to play with players of similar declining standards but a desire to play with compatriots, or viewed another way to avoid younger players. So the only reason to have it at all is to attract players who would otherwise not participate, and so the limit should be set accordingly.

Of course some senior-qualified players might play in the main section because they actually find grumpy old men even more unendearing than juniors.

Very accurate observations! By the way one had to watch the way Mr Olgerts (*) Bergmanis (according to some sources he is over 80 but he looks much much younger) demolished the very strong Victor Kildisas last Tuesday night at the BHCC!

(*) My favourite Australian Chess player. A real gentleman on and off the board!

Cheers and good luck!

Igor_Goldenberg
21-02-2008, 04:09 PM
Very accurate observations! By the way one had to watch the way Mr Olgerts (*) Bergmanis (according to some sources he is over 80 but he looks much much younger) demolished the very strong Victor Kildisas last Tuesday night at the BHCC!

(*) My favourite Australian Chess player. A real gentleman on and off the board!

Cheers and good luck!

It's nice to know he is still playing!

Gringo
21-02-2008, 05:33 PM
I just don't understand why youse old blokes have to be so bloody precious. What's the problem with being in among the regular crowd, young and old? I mean, just look at Viktor Kortchnoi.

AR
when you get to Korchnoi's age, you'll Definitely be a ClosetGranMaster:eek:

Denis_Jessop
21-02-2008, 07:43 PM
I just don't understand why youse old blokes have to be so bloody precious. What's the problem with being in among the regular crowd, young and old? I mean, just look at Viktor Kortchnoi.

AR

Actually Korchnoi played in the World Seniors Championships last year.


DJ

Denis_Jessop
21-02-2008, 08:08 PM
I think the problem with comparisons between chess and other sports for deciding "What is a senior?" is that the reasons for having a separate tournament are different.

In most sports a 60-year old can't meaningfully compete with someone half their age even if they used to be good, and it can even be dangerous to try. In chess a senior can play at a reasonable level and find competitive opposition even if they aren't quite as good as they once were. This is partly because of the game itself, in which deterioration is much less severe, and partly because the popular Open Swiss structure allows players with a range of skills and experience to participate in one tournament. A player who has retired and/or got rid of the kids and has more time to study could even be better at 60 than at 30.

Chess is really only difficult for older players when the time limits turn it into an overtly physical sport so that a player with, say, arthritis or Parkinson's loses a significant amount of time as a proportion even if it's small in absolute terms, or the schedule makes it tiring.

Hence the motivation to play in a seniors' event is not a need to play with players of similar declining standards but a desire to play with compatriots, or viewed another way to avoid younger players. So the only reason to have it at all is to attract players who would otherwise not participate, and so the limit should be set accordingly.

Of course some senior-qualified players might play in the main section because they actually find grumpy old men even more unendearing than juniors.

I think that most of your post, Ian, is pure speculation as you have not yet reached the relevant age and so don't know either how it feels or what motivates older players.

There is also a contrast to be made between people who have been playing continuously and those who have taken a break and decide to return to the game after retirement. I fell into the latter category and I can assure you that the idea that study is easy and you can be better than you were at 30 is a load of cobblers. I found that I thought I was studying well, could see things that I couldn't see before (I think that is because modern annotators spend time pointing out the bleeding obvious for rabbits while old-time annotators wrote for experts) but I simply played superficial rubbish.

Likewise the idea that chess is hard for old people only if they have some physical impediment like arthritis just shows how much you have to learn about growing old. (But look forward to it - you may not be disappointed, even with arthritis :D )


Very accurate observations! By the way one had to watch the way Mr Olgerts (*) Bergmanis (according to some sources he is over 80 but he looks much much younger) demolished the very strong Victor Kildisas last Tuesday night at the BHCC!

(*) My favourite Australian Chess player. A real gentleman on and off the board!

On the other hand I agree with what is said about "Bob" Bergmanis. I'm pretty sure that he is quite a few years older than I as he was VCA Treasurer when I was VCA Secretary in the 1960s and he seemed older then I was. But he is one of those who has been playing chess forever non-stop. Also some people (eg Korchnoi and Em. Lasker) retain the power to play well at an old age while the power of others diminishes. Bergmanis is in the former category and all power to him. Moreover I also agree with Igor's sentiments. I mention that Bergmanis has played in most Doeberl Cups as well and I have met him here many times over the years.

Along the same lines one must mention David Tabak who didn't take up serious chess playing until he was over 50 and within a few years was playing in the Victorian Championship (not an open event) alongside Hamilton, Basta, Ozols, Hanks et al in the 1960s.

One just can't generalise.

DJ

Charles
23-02-2008, 08:01 PM
One month out from the tournament start date I fell compelled to comment on the high level of commitment from the Australian Chess Public. O2C has put in 100's of hours to get this tournament to a standard that we are happy with.

I would like to begin with a short thank you to our team who have put in all of this time. You are unlikely to know them but those who get to Canberra if you like the tournament or a particular aspect of the organisation I would encourage you to offer them your thanks'when you get here.

Nyssa Zelman - Web/IT/Video Mistress who has developed the website including all of the web forms, payment gateways, and information sources. This has been a huge investment of her time and will continue to be for the next month. For the tournament she will be organising all of the video footage, live games, and scores and results.

Emma Peiper - Organiser of all things culinary and accommodatory. She has worked to negotiate all of the rates and processes for the various hotels. She is ensuring that the venue is organised for the maximum in player comfort and that arrangements for the GM's are in place.

Lara - my wife who puts up will me and develops all of our newsletters. She also is the architect of the infamous Shirt slogan for this year.

Steve Rohan-Jones - my business partner who supported the idea that we should commit to and build a good quality tournament regardless of the financial outcome.

To the advisory committee who many of you will know and who have provided valuable input and support - Thanks to Shaun Press, Stephen Mugford, Jenni Oliver, and Shun Ikeda. Also thanks for assistance and advice from Ian & Cathy Rogers, Brian Jones, and Libby & Michael Smith.

So what does all this mean - it means one month out from the tournament, we currently have 154 registered players including 10 GM's, 1 WGM, 14 IM's, 4 WIM's and players from 20 countries. A premier event that is full and major and minors that are filling. So from me, thanks for your support so far. To those attending the tournament I hope you enjoy your time, to those who cant make it this year - enjoy the video footage and the live games (assuming we can get the DGT boards operating):)

Charles
25-02-2008, 03:10 PM
Hi all, just a quick note to explain where we are at with the Premier. We have closed general entries to the Premier as we reached our cap of 80 registrations mid last week. As stated in our schedule page, we have held open 20 additional spots for players who wish to play but due to their level of FIDE and ACF ratings are not eligible for other Doeberl tournaments such as the Major - these places will be issued at the discretion of the organisers. When we exhaust these 20 places (9 are already allocated), we will close the Premier to all entries.

Trent Parker
25-02-2008, 03:25 PM
My mate was going to play in the U1200 event but I dont know if he'll go now as he tends to play very slowly and plays better in the 90+30 format......

He might still play U1600's lets see what happens....

Charles
27-02-2008, 12:31 PM
Just a quick note to say that pre-orders for these close this friday the 29th. We will not have stock at the venue. We may take orders at the tournament but, if we do, it is likely that these orders will incurr a postage and handling fee.

Desmond
27-02-2008, 07:26 PM
Just a quick note to say that pre-orders for these close this friday the 29th. We will not have stock at the venue. We may take orders at the tournament but, if we do, it is likely that these orders will incurr a postage and handling fee.Speaking of which, can people who are not attending order one and get it delivered?

Charles
29-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Speaking of which, can people who are not attending order one and get it delivered?

Yes but we will need orders by Sunday for pickup at the tournament or delivery prior to the tournament.

From Sunday the price will rise by $10 for all shirts that will need to be posted out. We can arrange the additional payment next week for those that are happy to pay an additional $10 fee to cover postage and handling.

Garrett
29-02-2008, 05:18 PM
sounds like it is going to be a fantastic tournament.

pax
29-02-2008, 05:36 PM
sounds like it is going to be a fantastic tournament.
Absolutely.

Plaudits to Charles and the organizing committee for turning the Doeberl into a significant international event.

Also much credit to Brian Jones for his canny judgment in establishing the SIO as a 'sister tournament' to the Doeberl. The two tournaments side by side are able to attract many more international players than either would probably manage alone. Long may the symbiosis continue!

Charles
03-03-2008, 05:25 PM
Hi all,

The rules page has been updated to reflect the allocation of MT Grand Prix points into the respective Doeberl Cup tournaments.

Charles
05-03-2008, 08:21 PM
We have had a local business man offer two Junior prizes for the Premier. He has offered $500 for the best overall Junior and $250 for the best ACT Junior. These prizes will be offered in the same manner as the overall cash prizes ie if the junior is eligible for a higher value place getter cash prize the Junior prize will go to the next eligible junior.

Garrett
06-03-2008, 06:32 AM
We have had a local business man offer two Junior prizes for the Premier. He has offered $500 for the best overall Junior and $250 for the best ACT Junior. These prizes will be offered in the same manner as the overall cash prizes ie if the junior is eligible for a higher value place getter cash prize the Junior prize will go to the next eligible junior.

Superb !

Perhaps you could name this business man (and his business) so he could get some recognition and perhaps custom for his contribution.

Cheers
Garrett.

Charles
06-03-2008, 06:43 AM
We certainly agree. His company Talent International is listed as a Minor sponsor for the fact that they are helping with some of the travel costs of bringing out the two Indian GM's. Baldev is listed on the Prizes page for his personal sponsorhip towards the Juniors. One of our major focuses is that sponsors get good value for money as often in Australia we take their money and then dont give them service and feedback on what exposure we have given them. Organisers then are surprised when next year they dont get more sponsorship!

Denis_Jessop
06-03-2008, 02:45 PM
Baldev Bedi has been on the fringes of ACT chess for many years - not an active player but a frequent spectator and casual blitz player.

He was a sponsor for the Australian Open Championships held here in 2001, among other things.

DJ

Charles
11-03-2008, 06:38 PM
As of today we have over 200 players registered with 90 in the Premier, 37 in the Major, 56 in the Minor, 7 in the Senior and 17 in the Under 1200's. For the Senior we are still around 9 players short of being able to provide a quality tournament for the players so anyone who is interested in the Seniors please let us know. We will look after all of the players in the Seniors by moving them into their eligible tournaments or, if they prefer, providing a refund should the tournament not go ahead.

I have had a number of interesting discussions with local ACT players who are age eligible for the Seniors but who prefer to play in the other tournaments - we will look at all ideas next year to make this a more attractive tournament.

Trent Parker
11-03-2008, 10:00 PM
geez. I keep forgetting to ask my mother for her credit card.... haven't paid yet.....got the money there though....will try again tomorrow. (this will hopefully remind me...)

Charles
12-03-2008, 03:58 PM
Hi all. It is with some sadness that I have to announce that we have cancelled the Senior Tournament for 2008. All registered players will have received an email which outlines their options for a refund or transfer to an appropritate tournament. We only had six players registered and felt we needed to give at least a weeks notice so that the registered players had enough time to arrange travel etc if they chose not to come. This will not affect us offering a tournament next year with alterations based on suggestions.

Trent Parker
13-03-2008, 10:46 AM
I just had a look at the website to make a payment for the tournament and I noticed the entry fee for the minor was now $120 when last year it was only $70 an increase of $50.

And the minor division has not had an uplift in its prize structure. This realization has made me reconsider entering the event. I give it a couple of hours thought....

Charles
13-03-2008, 11:35 AM
I just had a look at the website to make a payment for the tournament and I noticed the entry fee for the minor was now $120 when last year it was only $70 an increase of $50.

And the minor division has not had an uplift in its prize structure. This realization has made me reconsider entering the event. I give it a couple of hours thought....


Hi there, thanks for the feedback. We respect the right of every player to consider the tournament and decide whether it addresses their individual needs.

The entry and prizemoney information has been available since the website went live in early November. When we took on running this tournament there were a few changes that were highlighted strongly in the 2007 Players survey. Players quite clearly articulated that they wanted a better playing venue - preferably with separate commentary areas, analysis areas, and recreation areas. From our view $30 per day for the venue facilities, and the quality and quantity of chess that is on offer is extrordinary value. Of course it is up to each individual player to ascertain whether they agree.

On the prizemoney I beg to differ. The removal of rating prizes in the Major and Minor has ensured a significant restructuring to reward the top five place getters. Last year had $600, $400, $300 with $550 in unrated and rating group prizes. This year we have $750, $400, $250, $150, $100 for the top six places.

Just let us know either way whether you will attend.

Trent Parker
13-03-2008, 11:40 AM
I decided that as I had put my name down earlier, (and my mother was kind enough to let me borrow $50 from her, I had not budgeted for that big an increase) I have decided I will play but will reconsider next year.

I paid $100 to play in SIC as I see the SIO/SIC as being a prestigeous event. I do not see the doeberl minor as as prestigious as the SIC yet I am paying more for it. There needs to be something to compensate for the large increase in entry fee, increasing the prize pool in porportion to the increased entry fee would do this.

Lets say that half the entry in the minor are juniors and half are at normal rate. Average entry fee of $100 (look i know that there are probably going to be more juniors but for ease sake) 57 players in the Minor = 5700
Prize money in U1600=$1950. just over one third of entries going into prizes

Now lets make them all juniors
57*80=4560

still only 42% of total entries recieved go into the prize pool

it is not good IMO

Trent Parker
13-03-2008, 11:51 AM
From our view $30 per day for the venue facilities, and the qualityI will pay $120 next year if i can play a titled player next year! I can just go and observe and not play if I wanted to observe grandmasters
and quantity of chess that is on offer is extrordinary value No different to me or any other minor player compared to last year.
Of course it is up to each individual player to ascertain whether they agree.

On the prizemoney I beg to differ. The removal of rating prizes in the Major and Minor has ensured a significant restructuring to reward the top five place getters. Last year had $600, $400, $300 with $550 in unrated and rating group prizes. This year we have $750, $400, $250, $150, $100 for the top six places.

Oh oh oh I'm sorry I am indeed incorrect the total prizemoney has increased (according to your numbers) BY A WHOPPING $100!!!!!! from 1850 to 1950!!!! with third prize actually decreasing in worth!!! wow $100 is huge! 2 entries can cover it!

Charles
13-03-2008, 12:52 PM
I will pay $120 next year if i can play a titled player next year! I can just go and observe and not play if I wanted to observe grandmasters No different to me or any other minor player compared to last year.

Oh oh oh I'm sorry I am indeed incorrect the total prizemoney has increased (according to your numbers) BY A WHOPPING $100!!!!!! from 1850 to 1950!!!! with third prize actually decreasing in worth!!! wow $100 is huge! 2 entries can cover it!

Not quite sure what I did to get such a strong attack as a response as I have invested a signfiicant amount of my companies and employees money and time into developing this tournament and have been polite in my responses to all players issues that have been raised.

Last year 71 people filled in a survey and you also filled in a survey. I did not think it was relevant to bring what you requested into the discussion previously but based on your statements above I will state your three areas for improvement which were common across a number of players. You requested that there be no talking in the playing area (The Italio Australia Club layout made this difficult so we have hired a venue that has an analysis room, a recreation room, and a main playing hall all separate), 2 you requested better tables (we have a bigger venue with more space between tables and less people per table with sturdy 2.1m table clothed tables). 3 you requested an analysis room in a different location (also achieved with the use of a separate room). This venue is significantly more expensive than the Italio Australian club but will offer a much better chess playing environment.

In your view, Brian may be able to offer you a more prestigeous tournament and I hope you enjoy it and do well there.

My aim is to build up the profile of chess in Australia and prizemoney is only one factor in that. You will observe that overall prizemoney has altered very little from last year with a slight rebalancing from the Premier to the Major.

As with all players I am happy to offer you a refund based on our normal conditions should you not wish to attend. The details are on the website.

Bill Gletsos
13-03-2008, 01:15 PM
Prize money in U1600=$1950. just over one third of entries going into prizesI dont know where you got the $1950 from as the website clearly shows the total prize money in the Minor is $1750.

Bill Gletsos
13-03-2008, 01:21 PM
On the prizemoney I beg to differ. The removal of rating prizes in the Major and Minor has ensured a significant restructuring to reward the top five place getters. Last year had $600, $400, $300 with $550 in unrated and rating group prizes. This year we have $750, $400, $250, $150, $100 for the top six places.Last year total prize money in the Minor was $1850. This year it is only $1750.

What it means is that not only did the Doeberl Cup get all this sponsorship with not one cent of it going to the minor prize fund but in fact the minor prize fund was reduced.

In fact this seems to contradict the statement on the main page of the website which states:

Larger prize lists in all divisions!

Garvinator
13-03-2008, 01:22 PM
Last year total prize money in the Minor was $1850. This year it is only $1750.

What it means is that not only did the Doeberl Cup get all this sponsorship with not one cent of it going to the minor prize fund but in fact the minor prize fund was reduced.
and from reading the forum, an entry fee increase of 80% approx.

Bill Gletsos
13-03-2008, 01:34 PM
and from reading the forum, an entry fee increase of 80% approx.Well last years entry fee was $90 with an early entry discount of $20 reducing it to $70. This year it was a flat $120 with no early entry discount.

Trent Parker
13-03-2008, 01:38 PM
Not quite sure what I did to get such a strong attack as a response as I have invested a signfiicant amount of my companies and employees money and time into developing this tournament and have been polite in my responses to all players issues that have been raised.

My apologies for my "strong attack" I am just conveying my disappointment at the comparative levels of increase in the price of the minor division compared to the prize money that was on offer. My apologies if i have been conveyed as unpolite. I thank you in attempting to raise the profile of chess in Australia but at the same time I think that organisers


Last year 71 people filled in a survey and you also filled in a survey. I did not think it was relevant to bring what you requested into the discussion previously but based on your statements above I will state your three areas for improvement which were common across a number of players. You requested that there be no talking in the playing area (The Italio Australia Club layout made this difficult so we have hired a venue that has an analysis room, a recreation room, and a main playing hall all separate), a standard that is expected accross all tournaments.... not just Doeberl.
2 you requested better tables (we have a bigger venue with more space between tables and less people per table with sturdy 2.1m table clothed tables). from memory my criticism was that the tables were too wide. I cannot remember any other criticism of the tables....
3 you requested an analysis room in a different location (also achieved with the use of a separate room). Tournaments all over the place cater for an analysis area be it in a separate room or just outside the playing hall. The Italo Australian Club room had one huge table which two players could not face each other. Guess what.... most tournaments that cater for this does so at no additional cost
This venue is significantly more expensive than the Italio Australian club but will offer a much better chess playing environment. Couldn't somewhere like where the ACT chess clubs be considered as a venue? Are they too small?

I would not have suggested anything had i expected an increase of so much.

I encourage anyone to rebut my comments above.



In your view, Brian may be able to offer you a more prestigeous tournament and I hope you enjoy it and do well there. Thank you


My aim is to build up the profile of chess in Australia and prizemoney is only one factor in that. You will observe that overall prizemoney has altered very little from last year with a slight rebalancing from the Premier to the Major.

As with all players I am happy to offer you a refund based on our normal conditions should you not wish to attend. The details are on the website. Thanks but I've only just paid today and I will be playing.



I'm sorry charles. I dont mean to put you or the tournament down.....

I apologise. I'm currently not working so am trying to budget for everything. the $120 entry fee for a minor just makes it borderline above my budget. I just hope that my status of current top seed holds out to obtain some prizemoney :uhoh:

pax
13-03-2008, 01:47 PM
I paid $100 to play in SIC as I see the SIO/SIC as being a prestigeous event. I do not see the doeberl minor as as prestigious as the SIC yet I am paying more for it.

This is a pretty unfair comment. The top division of SIO and Doeberl are almost identical, so the prestige is equal from that perspective. If you play in the SIC you won't play any titled players, so how is that more prestigious than the Doeberl Minor? In addition, the Doeberl has the reputation as Australia's top non-championship event for nearly all of the last 20 years.

Igor_Goldenberg
13-03-2008, 02:07 PM
while entry fee is an expense to be considered, it is relatively small in comparison to accommodation and transportation cost. I don't think $50 difference in the entry fee is significant as overall proportion of the outlay required.

Trent Parker
13-03-2008, 02:18 PM
This is a pretty unfair comment. The top division of SIO and Doeberl are almost identical, so the prestige is equal from that perspective. If you play in the SIC you won't play any titled players, so how is that more prestigious than the Doeberl Minor? The SIC is under 2000 and should be (but apparently not be) FIDE Rated the Doeberl Minor is not. I want to play in the division that my rating is in and do not want to play in the Doeberl major which will be FIDE Rated. If I could play in the SIO I would but I cannot pluck the other $100 out of my rear end to play in that tournament. I believe that the Doeberl Major is going to be fide rated yet it still has the same entry fee structure. Go figure!




In addition, the Doeberl has the reputation as Australia's top non-championship event for nearly all of the last 20 years.

True. Yet IIRC it has a higher entry fee than the Australian Champioships this year.

Trent Parker
13-03-2008, 02:20 PM
while entry fee is an expense to be considered, it is relatively small in comparison to accommodation and transportation cost. I don't think $50 difference in the entry fee is significant as overall proportion of the outlay required.If you have a lot of money.... yeah sure.....

pax
13-03-2008, 03:53 PM
True. Yet IIRC it has a higher entry fee than the Australian Champioships this year.
It also has at least twice the prizes, and five times as many GMs playing. Seems fair enough to me..

Afitz
13-03-2008, 08:45 PM
Couldn't somewhere like where the ACT chess clubs be considered as a venue? Are they too small?


Last time i played in Canberra from memory Belconnen rents space which would nowhere near hold the numbers even if events were staggered significantly, Canberra/ANU i'm not sure of since they have moved since i have been outta town - but again same issue, and Tuggeranong which has a decent (if it's still Vikings?!) but doubt getting facilities for same length, same quality (Hellenic club is one of the nicest venues i've played in) and don't think it would fit the numbers again..

Igor_Goldenberg
13-03-2008, 09:36 PM
If you have a lot of money.... yeah sure.....
Are you saying you spent no money on transport and accommodation?

Igor_Goldenberg
13-03-2008, 09:37 PM
Looks like it's going to be a hot tournament:D

Denis_Jessop
13-03-2008, 09:58 PM
This venue is significantly more expensive than the Italio Australian club but will offer a much better chess playing environment.

I think I am right in saying that until last year the ACTCA had the Italo-Australian club free of charge as part of its community obligation. That was certainly so when Roger McCart negotiated the deal with the Club several years ago and I was President of the ACTCA. Up 'til last year when The Italo Club decided to charge for the venue (I believe because they were in financial difficulty) I heard no significant complaints about the venue other than the unequal air conditioning.


Couldn't somewhere like where the ACT chess clubs be considered as a venue? Are they too small?

None of the venues of the Canberra chess clubs is big enough or suitable for a tournament the size of the Doeberl Cup. They are barely big enough for the clubs themselves and the clubs are very small (15 - 25 players).


It also has at least twice the prizes, and five times as many GMs playing. Seems fair enough to me..

This seems a slightly odd statement. How can you set the entry fees with respect to the number of GMs playing when you don't know when setting the fees how many GMs, or anyone else, will be playing?:hmm:

DJ

arosar
13-03-2008, 10:38 PM
Whether or not this event was really worth the $120 I paid for is a bit hard to judge until it actually takes place. So let's wait til then. In any case, the costs for organising this year's edition are now different. Evidently the venue is no longer gratis.

Finally, we should dispense with this ridiculous mentality that organisers owe chess players an explanation. Take a look at the f**king numbers, do your your f**king sums and make up your own minds. That's all there is to it. I mean some of youse act like bloody babies or something.

AR

Basil
13-03-2008, 11:54 PM
I haven't followed this thread, but on the strength of ...
Finally, we should dispense with this ridiculous mentality that organisers owe chess players an explanation.
... promote that man!

Carry on!

Garvinator
14-03-2008, 12:35 AM
Finally, we should dispense with this ridiculous mentality that organisers owe chess players an explanation. Take a look at the numbers, do your your sums and make up your own minds. That's all there is to it. I mean some of youse act like bloody babies or something.

AR
Warning, Warning take cover, rare event about to happen, telling you all to be careful.

I completely agree with this statment of Amiel's- minus the profanity of course ;)

Trent Parker
14-03-2008, 01:35 AM
Are you saying you spent no money on transport and accommodation?

I am getting a lift down with someone else and my accomodation costs total $132. I cannot really afford to pay for anything more than this backpacker accomodation.

Trent Parker
14-03-2008, 01:38 AM
Whether or not this event was really worth the $120 I paid for is a bit hard to judge until it actually takes place. So let's wait til then. In any case, the costs for organising this year's edition are now different. Evidently the venue is no longer gratis.

AR
AR the Major and the minor are two entirely different tournaments. one is being FIDE Rated the other is not. The minor should not be the same cost as the minor IMHO

I'm actually surprized at the number of players playing in the Minor considering the cost of entry.


Finally, we should dispense with this ridiculous mentality that organisers owe chess players an explanation. Take a look at the numbers, do your your sums and make up your own minds. That's all there is to it. I mean some of youse act like bloody babies or something.

I coulnt care less if the organisers dont give me an explanation. I'll be making my stance known about next years event by whether I enter or not. Paying extra attention next year.

pax
14-03-2008, 10:11 AM
This seems a slightly odd statement. How can you set the entry fees with respect to the number of GMs playing when you don't know when setting the fees how many GMs, or anyone else, will be playing?:hmm:

I was just responding to TCNs assertion that the Aus Champs was necessarily a superior tournament.

Garrett
14-03-2008, 10:42 AM
This seems a slightly odd statement. How can you set the entry fees with respect to the number of GMs playing when you don't know when setting the fees how many GMs, or anyone else, will be playing?:hmm:

DJ

Forecasting.

Ian Rout
14-03-2008, 10:55 AM
This seems a slightly odd statement. How can you set the entry fees with respect to the number of GMs playing when you don't know when setting the fees how many GMs, or anyone else, will be playing?:hmm:

DJ
Although organisers can't know with certainty, they have (one hopes) a plan of how many GMs they are planning to chase and if they know what they are doing it will be a realistic plan. Certainly if they fail to deliver then they will attract a certain amount of justifiable criticism but it hardly seems sensible to work on the basis that the number is a complete unknown. Similarly there is an estimate for budget purposes for other players which should be sensible.

pax
14-03-2008, 11:42 AM
Although organisers can't know with certainty, they have (one hopes) a plan of how many GMs they are planning to chase and if they know what they are doing it will be a realistic plan.
In this case, the 2007 field was probably a realistic indicator.

Basil
14-03-2008, 01:50 PM
Forecasting.
And if the forecast is wrong? {insert answer}
Is there any problem with promoters (yep the people carrying the can :wall:) simply creating a model and letting the market decide?

Denis_Jessop
14-03-2008, 03:46 PM
And if the forecast is wrong? {insert answer}
Is there any problem with promoters (yep the people carrying the can :wall:) simply creating a model and letting the market decide? This isn't primarily about logistics, it's primarily about people getting their minds around doofus (leftish) notions.

Gunner: Please do not pollute chess threads with your left/right quasi-political nonsense. That is for the non-chess threads where no reasonable person treads but to stir.

DJ

Basil
14-03-2008, 04:05 PM
Gunner: Please do not pollute chess threads with your left/right quasi-political {snipped (Axiom/ Rudd) dribble }.
Noted. Agreed and fixed original.

Trent Parker
14-03-2008, 06:03 PM
Ok. I'm done whinging....

Time to do some study so I can kick some ......!!

:D

I hope to meet you at Doeberl Charles!

pax
14-03-2008, 06:44 PM
And if the forecast is wrong? {insert answer}
They wear it the next year. E.g tournaments are sometimes promoted with a promise of $X prizemoney based on a minimum of Y entries. When entries turn out to be Y/2 the organisers tend to have egg on their faces.


Is there any problem with promoters (yep the people carrying the can :wall:) simply creating a model and letting the market decide?
Nope, I'm all for that notion, with the exception of National Championships and the like where certain minimum standards are expected.

Basil
14-03-2008, 07:06 PM
Nope, I'm all for that notion, with the exception of National Championships and the like where certain minimum standards are expected.
Good man. Agreed on both counts.


They wear it the next year. E.g tournaments are sometimes promoted with a promise of $X prizemoney based on a minimum of Y entries. When entries turn out to be Y/2 the organisers tend to have egg on their faces.
Sure. But the loss is on their own terms, not on a forced and baseless notion of what they're meant to do. And egg on the face (if in fact the egg exists, which in any case is apparent only to the wearer) is much easier to wear than a hole in the pocket.

Desmond
14-03-2008, 07:06 PM
They wear it the next year. E.g tournaments are sometimes promoted with a promise of $X prizemoney based on a minimum of Y entries. When entries turn out to be Y/2 the organisers tend to have egg on their faces. isn't that what already happened last year? :hmm: They lost money and have now increased the entry fee. Surely this should not cause too much head-scratching.

Vlad
14-03-2008, 09:47 PM
isn't that what already happened last year? :hmm: They lost money and have now increased the entry fee. Surely this should not cause too much head-scratching.

Well, I hope the organizers check the no-ponzi-game condition.:)

Tony Dowden
16-03-2008, 07:32 PM
I paid $100 to play in SIC as I see the SIO/SIC as being a prestigeous event. I do not see the doeberl minor as as prestigious as the SIC yet I am paying more for it.

Hi TCN,

I reckon both events are as 'prestigious' as each other. In other words, very prestigious.

I was delighted to play in the SIO last year and I'm going to be just as delighted to play in the Doeberl this year. And now that the fields for both events are close to settled, I don't see any discernible difference in either of the events re the terms you describe. I fully expect my experience to be just as enjoyable as last year. (Indeed, the Doeberl venue would appear to be superior). And like last year I have no illusions about winning any prize money!

If I have any quibble at all, it would be allowing players into the Doeberl field without meeting the rating requirements. But in the single case where this has happened (Sanmogam Goundar from Fiji), I hope that other players will join me in agreeing this decision fosters chess in smaller nations in our region and is worthy of our unqualified support.

Cheers, Tony

Bill Gletsos
16-03-2008, 07:42 PM
If I have any quibble at all, it would be allowing players into the Doeberl field without meeting the rating requirements. But in the single case where this has happened (Sanmogam Goundar from Fiji), I hope that other players will join me in agreeing this decision fosters chess in smaller nations in our region and is worthy of our unqualified support.Sanmogan meets the rating requirement as he has an ACF rating over 1800.

Charles
16-03-2008, 08:17 PM
Sanmogan meets the rating requirement as he has an ACF rating over 1800.

Tony is right in that Sanmogam is an unusual case in a couple of aspects. Firstly he is registered with FIDE but has yet to get his FIDE Rating (He has some activity from last november listed now but still no rating). He applied for entry well prior to the Premier reaching its initial 80 players.

My understanding is also that he lives in the Nothern Territory but does not have an ACF rating - Bill I will defer to you if that is incorrect. However he does have a Fijian Rating which was within the rating range for players we were accepting prior to the close of the original 80 players. Therefore we accepted his Fijian rating (and put it in the ACF column) as a qualifier and in discussions with Shaun he will be seeded as unrated in terms of the Premier.

The only other alternative was to work on the basis that he had no FIDE rating and no ACF rating therefore consider him as unrated and only offer him a position in the Minor which we didnt consider a realistic alternative.

Denis_Jessop
17-03-2008, 11:00 AM
I assume this is the same player:


1851? 0 Goundar, Sanmogam

from the overseas players list on the current ACF rating list - the zero refers to the number of games played in the period under review.

DJ

Charles
17-03-2008, 12:30 PM
I assume this is the same player:



from the overseas players list on the current ACF rating list - the zero refers to the number of games played in the period under review.

DJ


That would be it. Thanks.

Tony Dowden
17-03-2008, 06:30 PM
Sanmogan meets the rating requirement as he has an ACF rating over 1800.

Oh! I hadn't realised. Thanks Bill

Garrett
17-03-2008, 06:59 PM
And if the forecast is wrong? {insert answer}
Is there any problem with promoters (yep the people carrying the can :wall:) simply creating a model and letting the market decide?

Forecasts are often wrong.

Nothing wrong with the promotors creating a model and letting the market decide. They probably create the model using their forecasts as a guide.

Basil
17-03-2008, 07:12 PM
Nothing wrong with the promotors creating a model and letting the market decide.
Quite. With that established, I enquire of the board as to whether there is in fact a superior model that should be adopted for framing tournaments (for posterity and for when the next Sweeney clown fresh from the last shower decides he/ she has a better model)?

Once we've all hummed and ha'ed and decided that the quoted plan is in fact the best, I shall entreaty the The Squad to ban next poster who supines otherwise to a month's suspension so that they may engage something known as the real world so they might engage it and understand it and {vociferous lefty diatribe deleted} ;)

Davidflude
17-03-2008, 07:48 PM
Gunner: Please do not pollute chess threads with your left/right quasi-political nonsense. That is for the non-chess threads where no reasonable person treads but to stir.

DJ

But keep up you postings on the non chess part of the forum. They make it much more lively.

Davidflude
17-03-2008, 07:51 PM
Some of you will start out wending your way to Canberra from tomorrow onwards. So best of luck everybody. It should be a bozer tournament

Garvinator
17-03-2008, 08:40 PM
Some of you will start out wending your way to Canberra from tomorrow onwards. So best of luck everybody. It should be a bozer tournament
bozer- should that be bonzer or boozer? :P

alexmdc
17-03-2008, 10:21 PM
Does anyone know why I am listed as a CM in the open but max illingworth is not?? I didn't even want the smelly title!

Axiom
17-03-2008, 10:24 PM
Does anyone know why I am listed as a CM in the open but max illingworth is not?? I didn't even want the smelly title!
oh stop whinging !

Charles
17-03-2008, 10:26 PM
Does anyone know why I am listed as a CM in the open but max illingworth is not?? I didn't even want the smelly title!


I can do you a deal. We merely worked off the FIDE site. Nyssa must have missed his C not everyone in our company actually understands anything about chess. (Sotto) I can remove yours or add his - which is your preference?

Charles
17-03-2008, 10:28 PM
Some of you will start out wending your way to Canberra from tomorrow onwards. So best of luck everybody. It should be a bozer tournament


To all travelling here I hope you have a safe and easy trip - remember double demerits for the weekend.

Charles
17-03-2008, 10:41 PM
Hi all,

All players can enter the club without having to fill in any paperwork. We will provide a list of players to the front desk. If you tell the front desk that you are coming into the chess tournament they will direct you upstairs. You can also use all of the club facilities. You do not need your name ticked off at the front desk. When you come up to the first floor there will be a registration table where your name must be ticked off so we can confirm that you are there for the beginning of the round. This must be complete by 1200 on Thursday (Premier) and 1200 Friday (all others) as we will re-pair any players with a no-show.

Registrations close at 1200 hrs on Wednesday. Mail registrations received by Thursday morning for all tournaments other than the Premier will also be processed. The provisional first round for the premier will be up on the website on Wednesday evening by 2000hrs and the first round for all other tournaments will be up by 2000hrs on Thursday evening.

Igor_Goldenberg
18-03-2008, 09:21 AM
Looks like it's going to be a hot tournament:D
Weather forecast changed. Not any more.

Charles
19-03-2008, 01:02 PM
Hi all,

We have just closed registration for all tournaments. However, if you are interested in playing in the Major, Minor or U1200's we will accept registrations for the first round draw up until 1000 tomorrow morning (Thursday).

We anticipate the First Round Draw for the Doeberl Premier will be up by 2000hrs tonight. Wednesday. We also have produced our first video of the tournament on Canberra etc. We anticipate publishing the first round draw for all other tournaments by 1800 Thursday evening.

Trent Parker
19-03-2008, 01:38 PM
Hey charles.

Will the games of the doeberl cup be collected and put into a database for the non live games? I would be willing to assist in this task. I'll be bringing my laptop with me down to Canberra.

Trent Parker
19-03-2008, 02:07 PM
Damn! I'm no longer top seed! :D

Intuition
19-03-2008, 02:33 PM
would anyone really consider buying those doeberl t-shirts?????????? maybe for the event or as a reminder, but i cant imagine anyone wearing it after the tourney :confused:

Charles
19-03-2008, 02:36 PM
Hi all,

We have just closed registration for all tournaments. However, if you are interested in playing in the Major, Minor or U1200's we will accept registrations for the first round draw up until 1000 tomorrow morning (Thursday).

We anticipate the First Round Draw for the Doeberl Premier will be up by 2000hrs tonight. Wednesday. We also have produced our first video of the tournament on Canberra etc. We anticipate publishing the first round draw for all other tournaments by 1800 Thursday evening.


My error, the U1200's obviously closes on Friday at 1200.

Charles
19-03-2008, 02:37 PM
Hey charles.

Will the games of the doeberl cup be collected and put into a database for the non live games? I would be willing to assist in this task. I'll be bringing my laptop with me down to Canberra.


Yes we have been thinking of that. We can talk on Friday when you get there.

Charles
19-03-2008, 02:40 PM
would anyone really consider buying those doeberl t-shirts?????????? maybe for the event or as a reminder, but i cant imagine anyone wearing it after the tourney :confused:


Some have bought them - what do you perceive as the major issue - is it the slogan as we will look to offer an option for a slogan free shirt next year.

Metro
19-03-2008, 06:15 PM
Some have bought them - what do you perceive as the major issue - is it the slogan as we will look to offer an option for a slogan free shirt next year.
If you remove the date people are more likely to wear it at a later Doebrl.
If you want an item that is collectable,leave the date on the t-shirt.

Basil
19-03-2008, 06:26 PM
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/scene66/misc%20images/teeshirt.jpg

sleepless
19-03-2008, 07:22 PM
Some have bought them - what do you perceive as the major issue - is it the slogan as we will look to offer an option for a slogan free shirt next year.

I bought one as a souvenir precisely because it's 'bad taste' wear in the Kath and Kim sense.

If you want something that sells all you need is a small professionally designed logo that can be monogrammed on the front (only!) of the polo shirt. A larger version of the logo can be screen printed on the front of the t-shirt.

You also need to protect your brand. Have a look at how carefully the private schools do this in projecting their image through uniforms' design.

Garvinator
19-03-2008, 10:09 PM
Jono,

Provisional first round pairings are out.

Amazing, two Logan chess club players travel 1500kms to get each other in first round :P

9 50 Dotsenko Viacheslav IM Solomon Stephen J 9

Gringo
20-03-2008, 08:41 AM
Don't forget the Painkiller's Routy...:eek:

pax
20-03-2008, 10:38 AM
No Zhao :(

Intuition
20-03-2008, 10:46 AM
Some have bought them - what do you perceive as the major issue - is it the slogan as we will look to offer an option for a slogan free shirt next year.

I think they are a bit daggy and any non chess player would think that the person wearing them is a dill, particulary after the tourney is over..... I think something like a polo top with a discreet knight and something along the lines of 'doeberl 2008 premier chess tornament' would be better :)

Oepty
20-03-2008, 01:30 PM
Yes we have been thinking of that. We can talk on Friday when you get there.

I also would be willing to help entering games, but I will not have a computer to enter them into.
Scott

Capablanca-Fan
20-03-2008, 01:50 PM
Jono,

Provisional first round pairings are out.

Amazing, two Logan chess club players travel 1500kms to get each other in first round :P

9 50 Dotsenko Viacheslav IM Solomon Stephen J 9
:lol: :lol: :lol: Could have stayed home!

brett
20-03-2008, 04:46 PM
Is there a crosstable available with results


Brett

ESFC1881
20-03-2008, 06:15 PM
Is there a crosstable available with results


Brett
Yup check out results on the homepage for the tournament

BearDrinkingBeer
20-03-2008, 06:16 PM
Round one results are up at http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/DBL2008_results/2008premier/.

Basil
20-03-2008, 06:32 PM
Well done Max. Well done Zvetozar.

Trent Parker
21-03-2008, 07:51 AM
Max also had a pretty good game against Igor. He apparently made an error in the endgame where he was a pawn up.

Duff McKagan
21-03-2008, 11:40 AM
The site is notoriously slow for updates. Where is the pgn file?

MichaelBaron
21-03-2008, 03:12 PM
Agreed...sigh...have not had such a low site download speed in years :hmm:

Leonid Sandler
21-03-2008, 07:39 PM
Its nice to see in board 1 our only Grandmaster in the tournament Darryl Johansen.Go Darryl,you can do it! Victorian Champion Igor Goldenberg is well placed to earn his final International Master norm.His easy third round draw with black pieces against highly rated Georgian Grandmaster just shows that Igor might be in a brink of the title.Tonight game against English Gm is very important.Fingers cross.

Guy West after adversity in round 2 also in the tight leaders pack.

Tony Dowden
22-03-2008, 08:30 AM
Hi From Canberra,

I've done my bit for Melbourne - playing too aggressively (not to mention inaccurately) against both Igor G and Guy West.

Igor was solid in his Round 3 draw against yestrrday. Note sure about Rd 4 but the results are up. Guy has Solo today so may be hard pressed to keep his 100% record (not counting when he hasn't read the round time of course).

I have Yi Yuan, so now I get to play some of those voracious juniors - yippee.

Puchen Wang told me he missed a win vs top seed GM Zhang Zhong lst night but they only saw it afterwards during their animated Chinese language post-mortem (amazingly they come from the same locality outside Shanghai!!)

Better go. Round 5 starts in 20 mins.

pax
22-03-2008, 08:36 AM
Did Malakhatko lose on time vs Darryl? The last position on the live board looks equal at best.

Adamski
22-03-2008, 09:54 AM
What has happened to Max since his big GM draw in Round 1? Is he sick? I read here he was unlucky against Igor B. But lost to 2 players he would normally be expected to beat.I have heard of successful Swiss gambits (even played them) but 0.5/4 is taking it a bit far.

On a happier note I am pleased to see a strong performance from my club's coach Antic.

And Tony D 2/4 in this company aint too bad.

North Sydney player and ex-work mate (I am a current work-mate of his wife) Tony Pickering is off to a good start too.

Good luck for the rest of the event to the 4 of you.

Charles
22-03-2008, 10:09 AM
Hi all,

Just a quick update on a couple of initiatives we are trying to do through the website. Firstly we will try to have half round results up approximately 3 hours after the start of each round. We are continuing with the videos of Ian Rogers including his commentary on Daryll's big win last night. The live feeds are a bit unpredicatable but we are working with the software to try to get it operational.

We will also be trying to get video commentary from selected GM's after their games.

Leonid Sandler
22-03-2008, 10:16 AM
Well done Charles,
Keep going with new ideas.
I have seen reports about Doeberl Cup on varios websites iincluding russian www.e3e5.com
Hopefully livegames will be operational very soon.

Charles
22-03-2008, 01:00 PM
Problem Rectified Live games are now operational and will be so for 3pm round (fingers crossed). Note half round results are up.

BearDrinkingBeer
22-03-2008, 01:35 PM
The live display seems to be working fine. Quick link to the live display http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/2008live/tfd.htm.

Axiom
22-03-2008, 03:33 PM
Have been enjoying the Rogers videos , only a shame that the lighting and/or demonstration board doesn't allow for clearly viewing the position.

Charles
22-03-2008, 05:44 PM
Have been enjoying the Rogers videos , only a shame that the lighting and/or demonstration board doesn't allow for clearly viewing the position.

Thanks for the feedback we will look at it for the . Also we seem to be having an occaisional problem with the Toma software towards the end of the games. We are trying to identify the problem and it appears to be with the Toma software. We will continue to work towards resolution.

Charles

Denis_Jessop
22-03-2008, 07:38 PM
The Rogers videos are a great innovation and Ian is very good at it. Before you know it all tournaments will be doing it!

Axiom's points could be fixed by a couple of studio lights and a bigger demo board, say, with magnetic pieces rather than slot-in ones that throw a shadow but that's not a real matter of concern. The sound is very clear and the vision is OK by me so improvements can be for next year.

DJ

Tony Dowden
22-03-2008, 07:51 PM
The Rogers videos are a great innovation and Ian is very good at it. Before you know it all tournaments will be doing it!

Axiom's points could be fixed by a couple of studio lights and a bigger demo board, say, with magnetic pieces rather than slot-in ones that throw a shadow but that's not a real matter of concern. The sound is very clear and the vision is OK by me so improvements can be for next year.

DJ

Ian's commentaries here at the Doeberl are world class - so I assume this is what you are referring to?

Axiom
22-03-2008, 07:56 PM
The Rogers videos are a great innovation and Ian is very good at it. Before you know it all tournaments will be doing it!

Axiom's points could be fixed by a couple of studio lights and a bigger demo board, say, with magnetic pieces rather than slot-in ones that throw a shadow but that's not a real matter of concern. The sound is very clear and the vision is OK by me so improvements can be for next year.

DJ
The videos are a great idea , Rogers does an excellent job, but i would say that IT IS a matter of real concern if one cannot discern clearly the position being reported on !

Axiom
22-03-2008, 07:58 PM
Thanks for the feedback we will look at it for the .

Charles
Thankyou Charles

Tony Dowden
22-03-2008, 08:17 PM
What has happened to Max since his big GM draw in Round 1? Is he sick? I read here he was unlucky against Igor B. But lost to 2 players he would normally be expected to beat.I have heard of successful Swiss gambits (even played them) but 0.5/4 is taking it a bit far.

On a happier note I am pleased to see a strong performance from my club's coach Antic.

And Tony D 2/4 in this company aint too bad.

North Sydney player and ex-work mate (I am a current work-mate of his wife) Tony Pickering is off to a good start too.

Good luck for the rest of the event to the 4 of you.

Thanks Jono2. Now 3/6 after draws with Yi Yuan (I let that one slip - a juicy English where he was getting squeezed) and Vincent Suttor (fair result in a tough Czech Benoni - although he nearly pulled off a win in the ending). Overall I 'm not to displeased with my play - better than 2007 SIO thus far, I reckon - and its a noticeable step up from playing in Tassie!

I've had a couple of chats with both Max Illingworth and his mother (Dianne?). He draw with a GM in Rd 1 but then blundered late in the next two games - he was much better vs Bjelobrk - and then Rd 4 was a real disaster straight out of the opening. I think his poor form is a combination of (1) tiredness (late evening rounds 2 & 4 being esp tough), (2) school issues (recent tests) and (3) overblown expectations after doing well in the Aussie Ch'p - so in rugby terms the top two inches needed some attention (translation: his sports psychology has been, well, very average you'd have to say).

Arianne Caoili is playing quite well and seems very serious about putting her hand up for the Olympiad team. I played next to her this afternoon and her typical positional game was running especially smoothly.

The Lightning is on tonight (about 50-60 players I think). I watched Junta Ikeda play a game. I'm not sure if I've ever seen anyone play quite as blindingly fast! Clearly he didn't know what the other four-and-a-half minutes was for ...

Back home now at my brother's for late dinner so I'll sign off. Ciao!:cool:

Adamski
22-03-2008, 10:33 PM
Thanks Jono2. Now 3/6 after draws with Yi Yuan (I let that one slip - a juicy English where he was getting squeezed) and Vincent Suttor (fair result in a tough Czech Benoni - although he nearly pulled off a win in the ending). Overall I 'm not to displeased with my play - better than 2007 SIO thus far, I reckon - and its a noticeable step up from playing in Tassie!

I've had a couple of chats with both Max Illingworth and his mother (Dianne?). He draw with a GM in Rd 1 but then blundered late in the next two games - he was much better vs Bjelobrk - and then Rd 4 was a real disaster straight out of the opening. I think his poor form is a combination of (1) tiredness (late evening rounds 2 & 4 being esp tough), (2) school issues (recent tests) and (3) overblown expectations after doing well in the Aussie Ch'p - so in rugby terms the top two inches needed some attention (translation: his sports psychology has been, well, very average you'd have to say).Ciao!:cool:Ta, Tony. Yes, Max's mum is Dianne (I have travelled home to Dee Why with them after chess events) and your analysis of why things aren't going too well for him sounds sound! As an education lecturer you would well know that the impact of exams in life should not be underestimated!
All the best, tomorrow.

BearDrinkingBeer
23-03-2008, 07:34 AM
The Doeberl Cup Lightning results are now up. http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/DBL2008_results/2008lightning/

1st Akobian, Varuzhan (8/9)
2nd Smerdon, David C (7.5/9)
3rd-4th Hu, Jason and Jones, Gawain (7/9)

MichaelBaron
23-03-2008, 08:22 AM
Good to see my friend Domagoi doing well so far :clap:

Denis_Jessop
23-03-2008, 02:08 PM
Ian's commentaries here at the Doeberl are world class - so I assume this is what you are referring to?

I was actually referring to the videos on the website but this morning I dropped in on some of Ian's "Live" commentaries and, if one is in Canberra, they are first class, as you say. Ian is excellent at that kind of instruction and will be doing the same at the SIO.

DJ

Kaitlin
23-03-2008, 02:31 PM
"the draw was agreed to, not because continuing on would lead to an inferior game, but that choosing a move other than what the players were following would have led to an inferior situation for one of the players." (1)

<------ Can someone dechipher this sentence for me????.. does it mean 'it was going to be a draw anywho so its a draw?'

(1) extract from "The Closet Grandmaster -"Chess is [was] very simple. He goes there, I go here. I go there, he goes here."" blog

My opion is as I already put is.......
"[Comment From Kait] I think its a bit of a silly rule.. if they think its a draw then let them share the point.. unless they are doing it to let the other person win the tourney.. then thats unsportsman like conduct and disqualification from the touorney"(1)

....and what if you needed to go to the toilet really badly and the only way your allowed to is to offer a draw...BUT .. the 30 moves hadnt been made yet... what then :rolleyes:

Kevin Bonham
23-03-2008, 05:39 PM
"the draw was agreed to, not because continuing on would lead to an inferior game, but that choosing a move other than what the players were following would have led to an inferior situation for one of the players." (1)

<------ Can someone dechipher this sentence for me????.. does it mean 'it was going to be a draw anywho so its a draw?'

In some positions players have the option to repeat moves and if someone does not repeat moves then that person (whichever side it is) will get a worse position. One of the problems with these anti-draw rules is that many positions of this kind are well known and players can simply play into them.

I would like to see the game in question before commenting further on what happened in this specific case.

Bill Gletsos
23-03-2008, 06:09 PM
I would like to see the game in question before commenting further on what happened in this specific case.1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 c5 5. dxc5 Bxc5 6. Nf3 Qb6 7. e3 Qc7 8. Be2 b6 9. O-O Bb7 10. Nb5 Qc6 11. Nc3 Qc7 12. Nb5 Qc6 13. Nc3 Qc7 0.5 -0.5

Desmond
23-03-2008, 07:48 PM
soft.