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Trent Parker
11-06-2004, 02:40 PM
On the subject of endgames

Parker,T - Bisson,D [D05]
Penrith Minor , 08.01.2003

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 Be7 5.Nbd2 Nbd7 6.0-0 c5 7.c3 a6 8.Qe2 b5 9.Re1 c4 10.Bc2 a5 11.e4 0-0 12.e5 Ne8 13.Nf1 g6 14.Bh6 Ng7 15.Ng3 b4 16.Qd2 Rb8 17.a3 b3 18.Bd1 f6 19.exf6 Nxf6 20.Ne5 Qe8 21.Bg5 Bd6 22.Qe3 Nd7 23.Nf3 Bxg3 24.hxg3 Nf6 25.Ne5 Nf5 26.Qf4 Ne4 27.Nf3 Nxd4 28.Qxb8 Nxf3+ 29.Bxf3 Nxg5 30.Bxd5 Qf7 31.f4 exd5 32.fxg5 Qf2+ 33.Kh1 Bf5 34.Re8 Be4 35.Rxf8+ Qxf8 36.Qxf8+ Kxf8 37.Rd1 Kg7 38.Rd4 h6 39.gxh6+ Kxh6 40.Kh2 Kh5 41.Kh3 Kg5 42.g4 Kf6 43.Kg3 g5 44.Kf2 Ke5 45.g3 a4 46.Ke3 Bc2 47.Kf3 -

Who do you think should win this endgame? I remember after game analysis of this game Bob keast, DW and i were discussing it and the evaluations ranged from win for white to win for black to drawn.

What do you people think?

Rincewind
11-06-2004, 03:18 PM
IMHO it looks drawn but it doesn't look like Black knows what to do so White should win. I think best for black is Bd3 entombing the rook. If white swaps off pieces then it becmes a drawn king and pawn endgame. Something like...

47... Bd3 48.Ke3 Ke6 49.Rxd3 cxd3 50.Kxd3 Kd6 51.Kd4 Ke6 52.Kc5 Ke5 53.Kb4 d4 54.c4 d3 55.Kc3 Ke4 56.Kd2 Kd4 57.c5 Kxc5 58.Kxd3 Kd5 =

White should have got his rook back to d2 earlier, across to f2 and infiltrate Blacks position. Rooks are in general poor blockaders and d4 is not the right square for that piece.

Garvinator
11-06-2004, 06:57 PM
tparker, can you plz correct your pgn notation so i can view the game, i think you need to add a space on move six after the full stop and before the 0-0, or something ;) much appreciated :D

Bill Gletsos
11-06-2004, 07:14 PM
tparker, can you plz correct your pgn notation so i can view the game, i think you need to add a space on move six after the full stop and before the 0-0, or something ;) much appreciated :D
It works fine for me.

Jai
11-06-2004, 07:23 PM
It works fine for me.
Works for me too.

Garvinator
11-06-2004, 07:37 PM
It works fine for me.
oh ok hmm, oh well no bother, ill look at the game when i get home, im at net cafe at the moment so maybe that is it.

Kevin Bonham
12-06-2004, 12:33 AM
White should have got his rook back to d2 earlier, across to f2 and infiltrate Blacks position. Rooks are in general poor blockaders and d4 is not the right square for that piece.

Agreed. The king should look after d4 from e3 and let the rook go free to roam the world, look at all those wonderful undefended pawns it can come in from behind and munch on. Exchange-up endings with lots of pawns are usually won unless the defender can create a dangerous pawn or completely block the opposing rook's entry squares. I think Barry is right that the final position is drawn with 47...Bd3, but if White had played 47.Rd2 instead of 47.Kf3 then I believe White wins. There's an interesting technical point here though: 47.Rd2 Be4 48.Rf2 d4+ (threat is to play ...c3 and push the b-pawn) 49.cxd4 Kd5 50.Kd2! (the point) giving back the pawn and White wins easily.

46...Bd3 also draws. However if Black had played ...Bd3 on move 45, I think White could have won with 46.a4!, the point being that now White can play Ke3 and then Rxd3 (if the bishop's still there, otherwise Rd2-f2 or h2 instead) and win the pawn ending because Black cannot protect the b-pawn after the white c-pawn is exchanged off, and White is able to force this pawn exchange. After Black plays ...a4, the exchange sacrifice no longer results in a won pawn ending. So in the last few moves it is apparently:

White win after Black's 45th
Draw after White's 46th
White win after Black's 46th
Draw after White's 47th.

I suspect it was won for White with best play from the start of the R vs B endgame until White played 46.Ke3, but I'm not certain of this.

Trent, if you're kicking yourself for not bagging the full point now, you can also thank your lucky stars that Danny overlooked 33...Bh3! 34.Qxf8+ Kxf8 35.gxh3 Qxb2 winning easily. (30.Bxc4 would have avoided all this.) Then kick yourself again for missing 25.Bxf6 Rxf6 26.Qe5 forking rooks and winning the exchange. (You may well already know about these). On the whole you had the better of the game though.

Rincewind
12-06-2004, 11:20 AM
I think you're right, white was winning from the start of the end-game and black had a couple of chances to equalise with Bd3. However, in the line I gave in my first post both sides have to play accurately at points or lose. Black's equalising chances centres around the protect advanced pawn on b3 and the pawn chain with the lever move of d4. Had white got in a4 it probably does stop Black's drawing chances as b3 is no longer guarded after playing c3. However, It is a double edged move as the pawn on a4 might prove a target for black's bishop. In this position that plan for black looks too slow however, so it is probably ok in this instance.

In the early part of the end-game white planned correctly in so far that d4 had to be watched closely. However, I think there was a more active way to do it.

37.Rd1 was the move designed to remove the threat of d4. This is all that was necessary until The white king could be brought up to e3. 38.Rd4 is overkill I think as the rook risks being trapped. At most Rd2 might be useful to help secure g2 from the bishop. The only thing to watch for was Bd3 then d4 but with the king so far behind I don't think this works.

There was another way though...

37.Rf1+ followed by 38.Rf4 and protect d4 from the side. This too buys you enough time to get the king to e3. However there is probably no need to rush and 37.Rd1 was sufficient but I would avoid Rd4 unless it was absolutely necessary. One possible line is...

38.Kg1 a4 39.Kf2 h5 40.Rd2 Kf7 41.g4 h4 42.Ke3 Ke6 43.Kd4

This is probably not best play for black, but white now has a pretty easy plan to win the rook goes to e2 and if possible swaps rook for bishop and pawn and the pawn ending is won thanks to white's better king position.

It's an interesting position with some chances for black but provided white is careful and doesn't get his rook entombed on d4 he should win. It is the sort of position that once the tide begins to turn winning will become very easy. Just need a few accurate moves to start the ball rolling.

skip to my lou
28-06-2004, 09:34 PM
Garvin, you used FEN instead of PGN, anyway, do not try this yet, I have not worked on PGNFEN, just normal PGN

Garvinator
28-06-2004, 09:38 PM
Event: ?
Site: ?
Date: ????.??.??
Round: ?
White: G. Gray
Black: opponent
Result: *
ECO: A57
PlyCount: 130

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cxb5 a6 5. e3 axb5 6. Bxb5 Qa5+ 7. Nc3 Nxd5 8.
Qxd5 e6 9. Qb3 Ra7 10. Qa4 Bb7 11. Qxa5 Rxa5 12. f3 c4 13. Bxc4 Rg5 14. Bf1 Bb4
15. e4 Rc5 16. Bd2 Nc6 17. a3 Nd4 18. axb4 Rxc3 19. bxc3 Nc2+ 20. Kd1 Nxa1 21.
Bc4 O-O 22. Bc1 Ra8 23. Bb2 d5 24. exd5 exd5 25. Bd3 Bc6 26. Kc1 Nb3+ 27. Kb1
Nd2+ 28. Kc2 Ra2 29. Kxd2 Rxb2+ 30. Ke3 Rxg2 31. Ne2 Rg5 32. Kd4 h5 33. h4 Rg2
34. Nf4 Rf2 35. Nxd5 Kf8 36. b5 Bb7 37. Rh3 Rd2 38. c4 Bc8 39. Kc3 Rxd3+ 40.
Kxd3 Bxh3 41. b6 Bc8 42. c5 Bb7 43. Kc4 Ke8 44. f4 Kd7 45. Ne3 Kc6 46. Nf5 Ba6+
47. Kd4 g6 48. Nd6 f6 49. b7 Kc7 50. Ne8+ Kxb7 51. Nxf6 Kc6 52. Nd5 Kd7 53.
Nb6+ Ke6 54. Nc4 Kf5 55. Ne5 Kxf4 56. Nxg6+ Kf5 57. Ne5 Bb7 58. Nd3 Kg4 59. Ke3
Kxh4 60. Nf4 Kg4 61. Nxh5 Kxh5 62. Kd4 Kg6 63. Ke5 Kf7 64. Kd6 Ke8 65. Kc7 Bh1
*

ok i have put up thje pgn, but i still cant play through the game

Rincewind
28-06-2004, 09:54 PM
ok i have put up thje pgn, but i still cant play through the game

I can play through the game all right. However, I note a number on 1 move tactical oversights. Do you have a specific question in mind? (I assume about the endgame given the thread).

Garvinator
28-06-2004, 09:57 PM
I can play through the game all right. However, I note a number on 1 move tactical oversights. Do you have a specific question in mind? (I assume about the endgame given the thread).
yes technical oversights a plenty lol, nah the question is relating to the position after move 40, just as the game goes into N+4 v B+3. i am white and the game ends up draw as you know.

Garvinator
28-06-2004, 09:58 PM
I can play through the game all right. However, I note a number on 1 move tactical oversights. Do you have a specific question in mind? (I assume about the endgame given the thread).
i cant

skip to my lou
28-06-2004, 10:15 PM
I see you are using FireFox 0.9. I am using the same browser.. its working fine for me.

The only thing that doesn't work is that you if collapse and uncollapse the whole PGN viewer it doesn't load properly. Is this what you are referring to?

Do you get any error messages? Can you take a screenshot of the page and send to karths@gmail.com please.

Rincewind
28-06-2004, 10:29 PM
yes technical oversights a plenty lol, nah the question is relating to the position after move 40, just as the game goes into N+4 v B+3. i am white and the game ends up draw as you know.

OK. The biggest mistake I think from this point was at move 43. After 42...Bb7 clearly best was 43.Nb4! The point is to play 44.c6 before his king has time to come and defend.

You're still winning after 43.Kc4 but it is going to take more work.

At the next two move at least (44 and 45) Nb4 is still the right move. You want to get c6 in asap and the f-pawn is a secondary concern.

After you move the knight the other way the play is OK. After 49...Kc7 you should play 50.c6! Defending the pawn for ever. Black cannot take the c-pawn on knight due to the b8=Q threat. Look at this position careful as this is an extremely common theme in endgames. It should become second nature.

(NB You don't have to worry about the bishop attacking c6 from a distance as your next two moves will be Kc5 and Ne8 after which your pawns are unstoppable).

50.Ne8 is a far worse move as it give away your greatest asset, the b-pawn. After this you might still be winning but careful play is now required.

You seem to lose your way around move 52.Nd5. Not sure what you were thinking here but the knight manouvering is very slow and only helps black. Worth a shot is 53.f5. Looking to resolve things on the k-side in short order. You knight will gobble the h-pawn and should be able to keep the f-pawn under control while your c and h pawns threaten to advance.

Once Black's king takes your h-pawn it is very drawish as either minor piece can generally give itself up for the remaining pawn leaving insufficient mating material.

Hope this is of some use to you.

Garvinator
28-06-2004, 11:37 PM
OK. The biggest mistake I think from this point was at move 43. After 42...Bb7 clearly best was 43.Nb4! The point is to play 44.c6 before his king has time to come and defend.

i just looked at this and after Nb4 one the pawns cant be stopped :( im sure kevin will stick this game in the swindlers thread :cry:

Rincewind
29-06-2004, 05:36 PM
i just looked at this and after Nb4 one the pawns cant be stopped :( im sure kevin will stick this game in the swindlers thread :cry:

I think black played reasonably well from move 40 on but not really swindlingly, more just grim determination and hope you missed the winning ways.

Also don't concentrate too much on missing the Nb4 path to victory. The later inaccuracies are just as worthy of further study. Particularly 50.c6. As I said before this idea is very common and familiarity with the theme will be of great practical value. In fact without preparing the follow up of c6, I believe b7 become a questionably idea as it artificially isolates your b pawn. In this case however c6 works and therefore b7 is strong.