PDA

View Full Version : Elitist?



ER
01-09-2007, 05:18 PM
I was invited to a friend's place for dinner the other day. Afterwards, we had a game of Chess discussing things about the game and its appeal to people in our society. He, as a member of the general community and I, as someone who is more involved with the game. According to his oppinion, if there was a Chess playing venue where people could enjoy a night out in a civilised, clean and reasonably quiet environment, the place would have been a success.
According to my friend that ideal Chess playing venue:
Should be somewhere close to the CBD,
should have strict dress rules (neat and casual a minimal requirement)
should not allow anti-social and distruptive characters enter the premises etc
I argued that conditions like these are elitist and exclusive. His point, however, was that the existance of such a centre along with other Chess clubs, is not undemocratic since it would be a matter of choice for people to go or not to go to such a venue.
And after all, there is a number of people, including myself, - he said - who do not frequent existing Chess playing venues for reasons such as
They don't want to be hussled in one way of another!
They want to spend sometime playing Chess and having a drink or a snack or a chat in a hygienically sound, well heated / air - conditioned environment.
They want to play Chess for the fun of it in a relaxed, civilised, witty atmosphere, where courtesy, good manners and friendly approach would prevail.
Maybe it's all nice and good to provide unlimited access to anyone in Chess premises, he said, but it is also nice and good to, sometimes, think of the people who are kept away with this attitude, he concluded. What do you think?
Maybe he is right or maybe he is wrong! Maybe I should invite him to the Box Hill Chess Club when I have some free time to go there myself since lately I am fully occupied with my work, gym workouts, my music which I had greatly neglected etc etc etc.
On the other hand, the thought of an inner (Melbourne) city Chess Cafe with some of the features my friend suggested sounds no bad at all. But I think I will ask the Gunner for his opinion before I commit myself to some more serious consideration. Anyway I better get down to the Telstradome. Melbourne Victory are having their first game of the season there tonight, and who knows. I might meet Bill Reid for a chat and a drink afterwards.
Cheers and good luck!

Desmond
01-09-2007, 05:27 PM
Sounds like a good idea to me.

Garvinator
01-09-2007, 05:55 PM
According to my friend that ideal Chess playing venue:
should have strict dress rules (neat and casual a minimal requirement)
should not allow anti-social and distruptive characters enter the premises etc
I agree with these points 200%


Should be somewhere close to the CBD,Not so sure about this one. Different locations advantage and disadvantage different people.


I argued that conditions like these are elitist and exclusive. His point, however, was that the existance of such a centre along with other Chess clubs, is not undemocratic since it would be a matter of choice for people to go or not to go to such a venue. I think the best way to go about it is to just say to each new person that our chess club is run this way and it is expected of all players to meet the 'standard'.

Another idea under this threads banner is try and get a playing venue where the general standards wanted for the club are the 'standard' for the general venue (if that makes sense).

Ian Rout
01-09-2007, 09:47 PM
I don't see why it is "elitist". Presumably it is intended that it be in addition to rather than place of the existing cesspits, which would remain available to those who preferred them.

Basil
01-09-2007, 09:56 PM
Presumably it is intended that it be in addition to rather than place of the existing cesspits, which would remain available to those who preferred them.
:lol:
Paying $35 HCDs right there, folks!

Ausknight
03-09-2007, 11:41 AM
Another idea under this threads banner is try and get a playing venue where the general standards wanted for the club are the 'standard' for the general venue (if that makes sense).

This is what my club does. We are based within an RSL club and as such, there's dress codes and behaviour codes in place that encompass all attendees anyway. It works well.

firegoat7
04-09-2007, 03:31 PM
According to his oppinion, if there was a Chess playing venue where people could enjoy a night out in a civilised, clean and reasonably quiet environment, the place would have been a success.

It would be interesting to understand how your "friend" qualifies success. Your friends ideas suggest that enjoyment, civilisation and quite environments would produce success. This assertion may be false, but then again it may be true. My guess is that their viewpoint is idealistic and elitist.




According to my friend that ideal Chess playing venue:
Should be somewhere close to the CBD,

Centralisation i.e Howard government.



should have strict dress rules (neat and casual a minimal requirement)

Civilised or undemocratic? Who knows, I don't but I don't believe a collar makes a person less of a savage, if you get my drift. Then again, who really needs to enforce a dress rule?



should not allow anti-social and distruptive characters enter the premises etc

The problem is that people don't wear anti social tags. Also, one persons idea of social is very different from anothers. Personally I think most chess players are very anti-social.



I argued that conditions like these are elitist and exclusive.

I am surprised. I thought you would argue and support your friends position.



His point, however, was that the existance of such a centre along with other Chess clubs, is not undemocratic since it would be a matter of choice for people to go or not to go to such a venue.

Sounds like a market force argument to me. Normally these arguments are bogus. They often rely on idealistic notions of purity that are not realistic. Choose elitism or choose democracy? Do people really have a choice if they are excluded based on codes?





And after all, there is a number of people, including myself, - he said - who do not frequent existing Chess playing venues for reasons such as
They don't want to be hussled in one way of another!



Individual liberalists, often control freaks.




They want to spend sometime playing Chess and having a drink or a snack or a chat in a hygienically sound, well heated / air - conditioned environment.


Does Freud present an opposite here?




They want to play Chess for the fun of it in a relaxed, civilised, witty atmosphere, where courtesy, good manners and friendly approach would prevail.

Bourgeois.




Maybe it's all nice and good to provide unlimited access to anyone in Chess premises, he said, but it is also nice and good to, sometimes, think of the people who are kept away with this attitude, he concluded. What do you think?


Your friend is a snob. They say you can judge a person by the company they keep, but who are they anyway.




Maybe he is right or maybe he is wrong! Maybe I should invite him to the Box Hill Chess Club when I have some free time to go there myself since lately I am fully occupied with my work, gym workouts, my music which I had greatly neglected etc etc etc.

Get your friend to join the freemasons then they can kill two birds with the one stone.:hand:

cheers Fg7

Basil
04-09-2007, 03:58 PM
... This assertion may be false, but then again it may be true.
Wow!


My guess is ...
Unimportant.

Kevin Bonham
04-09-2007, 08:32 PM
Individual liberalists, often control freaks.

It's a bit weird you say that when I'm sure you'd apply the former term to me too and when I'm probably more or less on your side on this one.

My view is that it's up to each group of players how they want to run their club, but ultimately, a chess club is a chess club not a dress club. (within reason of course - I do recall a certain gent from the old HCC whose inattention to tucking in the back of his trackpants was not acceptable).

Kruupy
04-09-2007, 11:41 PM
Hi HeavyKnight,

Just in case you were not aware / perhaps interested in Hobart we have a pub called Knopwood (knoppies) that actually has chess boards on the dinner tables - in exchange for a $10 deposit at the bar you can grab the pieces and sit to enjoy a game:


It is pretty much in the CBD (interesting argument my brother has had with my dad as to whether it is in CBD or close)
I would assume it has some sort of dress code


However I think the concept, though still existing has failed/slipped through because:

1. They dont promote it AT ALL.
2. They allow disruptive behavior (ie Pub behavior)
3. It's a pub.

However it still exists - just thought you might be interested to find that out,
I am lobbying for the TUU (Tasmanian University Union) Chess Society to have a few meetings down there as I think it would be a hit with the students.

eclectic
05-09-2007, 12:52 AM
kruupy's comments reminded me of a club in london i had read about

http://www.khcc.org.uk/start2.shtml

Aaron Guthrie
05-09-2007, 01:10 AM
Just in case you were not aware / perhaps interested in Hobart we have a pub called Knopwood (knoppies) that actually has chess boards on the dinner tables - in exchange for a $10 deposit at the bar you can grab the pieces and sit to enjoy a game:In my experience it is not uncommon for pubs to have a chess set (failing that they usually have a deck of cards, even if they are uno cards). And of course no-one stops you if you bring your own set. But-
However I think the concept, though still existing has failed/slipped through because:What is the concept so referred? Because just having sets doesn't seem to do anything. Unless the set is accompanied by an opponent, the pub hasn't really helped out much.

Kruupy
05-09-2007, 01:19 AM
What is the concept so referred? Because just having sets doesn't seem to do anything. Unless the set is accompanied by an opponent, the pub hasn't really helped out much.

The concept/idea referred to is having chess sets available to use at a bar/pub/outlet in order to (i assume) attract business (in multiples of 2!)

Basil
05-09-2007, 01:34 AM
Market forces.
Supply, demand, viability, opportunity cost.
The 4 Ps (Product, Price, Place, Promotion).

Carry on, everybody. You're all doing very well.

Aaron Guthrie
05-09-2007, 03:00 AM
The concept/idea referred to is having chess sets available to use at a bar/pub/outlet in order to (i assume) attract business (in multiples of 2!)I was hoping there would be more too it. In this case it really doesn't seem like much added value to the bar. As I said in my last post, many bars already have sets. And anyway, if I have to bring my own opponent, I may as well bring my own set too.

littlesprout85
05-09-2007, 07:08 PM
excellent ,

Seeing a new side of Heavys lately. By sproutys standards these are not really Elitist. Sprouty has to have AC or pea brain sizzles too much.& a clean restroom isnt outta the question. Playing a chess tourney out here you gots to have the shelter.(today was 112f. outside):eek:

Out here stateside in da middle of this desert, nobody is really into chess but say for the youth playing in school chessclubs.

Sprouty has finally found a place where chess players gather weekly.
This gathering is a ban of lost D & D outcast. We play for hours at a public bookstore & there is no telling wat you might find sittting inz on the scene.(very cool - relaxed - high ratings) Maybe at the most 10-15 ppl. but So far they are alot better than sprouty :S

A Real funny thing is that all the sites you find for AZ chess on the web are elitist. You got pay dues & the whole 9 before you can even see the the compitition online :S

Really got a strange feeling that Chess is more popular there in the "Land Down Under" than it is here.
-Sprout :)

ER
09-09-2007, 07:25 PM
Hi HeavyKnight,

Just in case you were not aware / perhaps interested in Hobart we have a pub called Knopwood (knoppies) that actually has chess boards on the dinner tables - in exchange for a $10 deposit at the bar you can grab the pieces and sit to enjoy a game:


It is pretty much in the CBD (interesting argument my brother has had with my dad as to whether it is in CBD or close)
I would assume it has some sort of dress code


However I think the concept, though still existing has failed/slipped through because:

1. They dont promote it AT ALL.
2. They allow disruptive behavior (ie Pub behavior)
3. It's a pub.

However it still exists - just thought you might be interested to find that out,
I am lobbying for the TUU (Tasmanian University Union) Chess Society to have a few meetings down there as I think it would be a hit with the students.

Hi Kruupy and thanks for the possitive response!
Promotion (*) is a field that Chess Administration, Clubs, players, everyone should direct some of their activities.
Actually, Clubs that promote their activities in Victoria, such as Box Hill Chess Club, Elwood Chess Club and the newly established Noble Park Chess Club, enjoy the results of their efforts in terms of sponsorship as well as increasing membership.
My friend's idea, however, is mainly based on the creation of a private exclusive Chess Club, under no circumstances to be categorised as a non/profit organisation, with strict criteria about its membership.
In another discussion last night at the MCG members bar, after we watched Collingwood exterminating the Swans, I told him that I would not participate in something that would be independent just for the sake of being elitist and exlusive and he came up with some really interesting ideas, which I will discuss in another time.
Thanks for contributing though!
Cheers and good luck!

(*) Great idea to promote Chess activities through the University. I hope it works!

ER
09-09-2007, 07:36 PM
Thanks All/all for your responses to this thread.
Please be practical though! You should know by now that responses from All are always welcome and encouraging. However, ideas and (in particular social criticism from all - please note the emphasis on the small "a"- would minimise your chances of being offered a job in the toilet cleaning department. :)
Cheers and good luck!

eclectic
09-09-2007, 07:51 PM
:hmm: pity box hill can't adopt some of those elistist ideas given they are in a dry zone (iirc) but their division a and b concept does have an elistist streak to it so i guess that's a start :hand:

Axiom
09-09-2007, 10:39 PM
Whoever sets up this elitist bar, please be sure to let Mr. Sirota know, i'm sure he would be very grateful.

ER
10-09-2007, 09:54 AM
Whoever sets up this elitist bar, please be sure to let Mr. Sirota know, i'm sure he would be very grateful.

LOL, good one Ax, don't you think, however, that we have plenty of our own formidable Sirotas here? What's the use of cheap imports?

Cheers and good luck (and welcome back too) :)

Axiom
10-09-2007, 09:36 PM
LOL, good one Ax, don't you think, however, that we have plenty of our own formidable Sirotas here? What's the use of cheap imports?

Are you thinking of something like "Duggan's Chess Emporium"
(- Free glass of champagne for anyone bringing a chess clock ! ) ?

or

i can picture a really hip bar with laser lighting and flouro chess boards,with cool cabaret jazz, bright coloured cocktails, copious chrome and glass, inner city,.......called "Zugzwankers" .

Aaron Guthrie
10-09-2007, 09:42 PM
i can picture a really hip bar with laser lighting and flouro chess boards,with cool cabaret jazz, bright coloured cocktails, copious chrome and glass, inner city,.......called "Zugzwangers" .The really elite version of that doesn't bother with the boards (but clocks are still allowed).

Axiom
10-09-2007, 10:03 PM
The really elite version of that doesn't bother with the boards (but clocks are still allowed).
oh !, dear...(mumble)....i stand corrected

Basil
11-09-2007, 12:03 AM
Are you thinking of something like "Duggan's Chess Emporium"
(- Free glass of champagne for anyone bringing a chess clock ! ) ?

or

i can picture a really hip bar with laser lighting and flouro chess boards,with cool cabaret jazz, bright coloured cocktails, copious chrome and glass, inner city,.......called "Zugzwangers" .

30 HCDs the lot! :clap: