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Vlad
15-08-2007, 12:43 PM
I am not sure if these questions have been addressed before. I would appreciate a reference if they were.

1) What is the rule about playing a dead drawn position in allegro. Let us say I have a rook and a pawn, my opponent has just a rook. We have already made a number of moves in this position. I only have a few seconds left. Can I claim a draw? Does the format matter, e.g. what if we played blitz?

2) We play allegro but have less than 2 minutes left each. My opponent makes an illegal move. Can I claim a win?

pax
15-08-2007, 01:21 PM
I am not sure if these questions have been addressed before. I would appreciate a reference if they were.

1) What is the rule about playing a dead drawn position in allegro. Let us say I have a rook and a pawn, my opponent has just a rook. We have already made a number of moves in this position. I only have a few seconds left. Can I claim a draw? Does the format matter, e.g. what if we played blitz?


In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2, so you cannot claim a draw except by repetition, 50 moves or stalemate.

In rapid, you can claim but I suspect that you would be wise not to wait until you have a few seconds left. The arbiter must satisfy himself that your opponent is not trying to win the game, and to do so may require observing a few moves. If you do not have enough time to play a few moves you will probably lose on time.



2) We play allegro but have less than 2 minutes left each. My opponent makes an illegal move. Can I claim a win?

No. Illegal moves are a win only in blitz.

See the laws of chess, Appendices B and C:
http://fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE102

Aaron Guthrie
15-08-2007, 03:16 PM
In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2, so you cannot claim a draw except by repetition, 50 moves or stalemate.Except the question was about allegro, which means rapidplay rules apply (not blitz).

Bill Gletsos
15-08-2007, 03:27 PM
Except the question was about allegro, which means rapidplay rules apply (not blitz).Depends on what time limit one uses for allegro. ;)

pax
15-08-2007, 03:44 PM
Except the question was about allegro, which means rapidplay rules apply (not blitz).


Can I claim a draw? Does the format matter, e.g. what if we played blitz?


In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2...

In rapid, you can claim ...

:wall: :wall:

pax
15-08-2007, 03:49 PM
Just to clarify, blitz is:

time+60*inc<15.

Rapid is:

15<=time+60*inc<=60.

Aaron Guthrie
15-08-2007, 03:51 PM
:wall: :wall:Just to expand upon my claim about 10:30 being an early time to play good chess, 2:46 is an early time to be able to read.

Rincewind
15-08-2007, 03:59 PM
Rapid is:

15<=time+60*inc<=60.

The rules are not very clear on whether the rapid is time<=60 or time<60. The most natural interpretation from the wording is <= however it is not unheard of for G60 games to be treated as classical and not rapid in actual play.

To my mind treating G60 as classical makes more sense as it is consistent with having the upper bound as a open interval (as is the case with blitz) and is more convenient from a practical point of view of running a weekender with non-incrementing clocks to classical rules. You could run them as G61 to overcome the issue and that is the inconvenience. Allegro in my experience tends to be more associated with the G30 sort of time control rather than G60.

Vlad
15-08-2007, 04:09 PM
In Blitz, there are no claims under 10.2, so you cannot claim a draw except by repetition, 50 moves or stalemate.


Thanks for the prompt reply.

The above implies that a strategy in blitz could be as follows. You gain 10 seconds advantage on your clocks and enter into dead drawn opposite colour bishop ending. In a meantime your blitz game may suddenly transform into fighting first, then into a boxing match.

I need to improve my boxing skills because I may really need them in the ending.:)

pax
15-08-2007, 04:34 PM
The rules are not very clear on whether the rapid is time<=60 or time<60. The most natural interpretation from the wording is <= however it is not unheard of for G60 games to be treated as classical and not rapid in actual play.

While G60 is normally treated as classical in Australia, FIDE seems pretty clear (to me) that this is rapid:



A ‘Rapidplay’ game is one where either all the moves must be made in a fixed time from 15 to 60 minutes; or the time allotted + 60 times any increment is from 15 to 60 minutes.

I take your point about open intervals etc, but have to remember that these rules are not written by (or for) mathematicians.

pax
15-08-2007, 04:43 PM
Thanks for the prompt reply.

The above implies that a strategy in blitz could be as follows. You gain 10 seconds advantage on your clocks and enter into dead drawn opposite colour bishop ending. In a meantime your blitz game may suddenly transform into fighting first, then into a boxing match.

All sorts of unpleasantness is possible in blitz. I have seen king takes king wins (where the winner had only his king and in the days when taking the king was permitted)..

In fact, that game was a good illustration of why the capturing the king rule needed to be clarified. The loser of the game claimed that his opponent had placed his king ambiguously between a legal square and an illegal square. He assumed the legal square and was bewildered when his king was captured. Unfortunately there was no way to verify the ambiguity claim, so the capture won the gamne.

Bill Gletsos
15-08-2007, 05:13 PM
The rules are not very clear on whether the rapid is time<=60 or time<60. The most natural interpretation from the wording is <= however it is not unheard of for G60 games to be treated as classical and not rapid in actual play.

To my mind treating G60 as classical makes more sense as it is consistent with having the upper bound as a open interval (as is the case with blitz) and is more convenient from a practical point of view of running a weekender with non-incrementing clocks to classical rules. You could run them as G61 to overcome the issue and that is the inconvenience. Allegro in my experience tends to be more associated with the G30 sort of time control rather than G60.The FIDE wording in Article B regarding rapid is clear, with rapid being from 15 to 60 mins with the both 15 and 60 included.

Compare this with the Article C rules on blitz where the term less than 15 mins is used.

Rincewind
15-08-2007, 05:31 PM
The FIDE wording in Article B regarding rapid is clear, with rapid being from 15 to 60 mins with the both 15 and 60 included.

Compare this with the Article C rules on blitz where the term less than 15 mins is used.

I agree (as I stated in my post) it is the most natural interpretation but I think saying it is clear is a stretch. Had they used the word "inclusive" then it would have been clear.

Kevin Bonham
15-08-2007, 07:47 PM
In rapid, you can claim but I suspect that you would be wise not to wait until you have a few seconds left. The arbiter must satisfy himself that your opponent is not trying to win the game, and to do so may require observing a few moves. If you do not have enough time to play a few moves you will probably lose on time.

If the claimant is the one with rook and pawn then the arbiter will most likely uphold the draw anyway (unless there is a trick such as very bad king position) - however the player with the rook and pawn may as well offer a draw first and only claim a draw if the offer is rejected.

pax
15-08-2007, 10:13 PM
If the claimant is the one with rook and pawn then the arbiter will most likely uphold the draw anyway (unless there is a trick such as very bad king position) - however the player with the rook and pawn may as well offer a draw first and only claim a draw if the offer is rejected.

All the same, if I didn't know in advance how the arbiter was likely to rule, I wouldn't wait until I was on the brink of losing on time..

Kevin Bonham
15-08-2007, 10:21 PM
All the same, if I didn't know in advance how the arbiter was likely to rule, I wouldn't wait until I was on the brink of losing on time..

Indeed, and some arbiters (even well known ones) have peculiar interpretations on that issue.

Vlad
15-08-2007, 10:44 PM
If the claimant is the one with rook and pawn then the arbiter will most likely uphold the draw anyway (unless there is a trick such as very bad king position) - however the player with the rook and pawn may as well offer a draw first and only claim a draw if the offer is rejected.

The problem was that the arbiter in charge (IA) was the person with a rook. He could not rule his own game so he asked if somebody else could do that. At that moment probably the most qualified people in the room (other than the arbiter) were Dr Alex and myself. We ruled it unanimously as a draw which made the arbiter in charge very unhappy.:(

Kevin Bonham
15-08-2007, 10:58 PM
Was a draw claimed by the player with the rook and pawn? So long as they followed all the proper procedures I don't think the player with the rook has anything to complain about.

After all Reuben in his book says that KR vs KR was the sort of position 10.2 was invented for so KR vs KRP should be an even bigger no-brainer (where the KR is the side playing for the win on time in the latter case.)

Capablanca-Fan
16-08-2007, 12:19 PM
The problem was that the arbiter in charge (IA) was the person with a rook. He could not rule his own game so he asked if somebody else could do that. At that moment probably the most qualified people in the room (other than the arbiter) were Dr Alex and myself. We ruled it unanimously as a draw which made the arbiter in charge very unhappy.:(
Seems like a fair ruling by you and Alex. Seems that IAs are not infallible.

Davidflude
19-08-2007, 12:06 AM
I saw this happen with two players in desperate time trouble in allegro. One player played an illegal move and his opponents flag fell. then his own flag fell. The arbiter had to look it up in the rules of chess.

Bill Gletsos
19-08-2007, 12:30 AM
I saw this happen with two players in desperate time trouble in allegro. One player played an illegal move and his opponents flag fell. then his own flag fell. The arbiter had to look it up in the rules of chess.Assuming the allegro time limit made it as a rapid then the situation is as follows.

After player (A) makes the illegal move, then if his opponent (B) claims illegal move before his flag falls then the arbiter should give player B an extra two minutes and have player A make a valid move. However since player A's flag has fallen then player B can claim the win on time.

Now if player (A) makes the illegal move and if the opponent (B) does not claim illegal move before his flag falls and player A claims a win on time before his own flag falls then Player A is the winner. However if after player B's flag falls and player A doesnt claim before his own flag falls and then either player claims then the game is drawn.

Rincewind
19-08-2007, 10:15 AM
I assume Bill means that the claims for win on time are contingent on there being a legal sequence of moves leading to mate for that player. If no such sequence exists then the game is drawn.

Now if a mating sequence did not exist before player A's last move, but by virtue of the illegal move, one was created, then I would say Player A cannot win as he is profiting from an illegal move. Provided the illegal move is known to the arbiter, I believe the game should still be drawn in Rapid. In Blitz, then I guess Player A wins provided the illegal move is not claimed before the flag fall.