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Ian Murray
26-10-2019, 08:30 AM
What if some PhD in Physics published an article that questions global heating? Shall he be stripped of PhD? :)

There are some who do, in physics and other disciplines:

List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_who_disagree_with_the_scientifi c_consensus_on_global_warming)

The vast majority don't question anthropogenic global warming:

List of scientific organisations that hold the position that Climate Change has been caused by human action (http://www.opr.ca.gov/facts/list-of-scientific-organizations.html):

ER
26-10-2019, 02:22 PM
Who is Gail?

hey AC here's some info

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/09/02/extinction-rebellion-co-founder-reveals-she-was-inspired-to-begin-the-climate-change-protest-movement-after-taking-psychedelic-medicines/

but that's not all, more to come when I am not busy!

I still suggest Greta to stick to her proper medication though!

Patrick Byrom
26-10-2019, 02:35 PM
There are some who do, in physics and other disciplines:
List of scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_who_disagree_with_the_scientifi c_consensus_on_global_warming)

The vast majority don't question anthropogenic global warming:
List of scientific organisations that hold the position that Climate Change has been caused by human action (http://www.opr.ca.gov/facts/list-of-scientific-organizations.html):That first list is really small compared to the second!

But my post was more to highlight the irony that ER doesn't even seem to realise that he is attacking someone with vastly more scientific training than himself. It's like a club player criticising his opponent's understanding of chess, without realising that his opponent is a grandmaster.

Blunderbuss
26-10-2019, 05:20 PM
Someone alerted me to this comic book version of the academic paper I referenced in post #4861 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?6637-Man-Made-Climate-Change-Issues-and-debates&p=453859&viewfull=1#post453859)

Here: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe (https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe)

MichaelBaron
27-10-2019, 06:15 PM
That first list is really small compared to the second!

But my post was more to highlight the irony that ER doesn't even seem to realise that he is attacking someone with vastly more scientific training than himself. It's like a club player criticising his opponent's understanding of chess, without realising that his opponent is a grandmaster.

wow....That means as far as running chess tournament and understanding of chess world is concerned...someone can give us all a simul...so what are we talking about?
So is Greta a ''Grandmaster''? what would her ''rating'' be?
Good thing about chess...screaming at everyone and hating everyone does not add rating points ...while in Greta's case - it did.

MichaelBaron
27-10-2019, 06:15 PM
hey AC here's some info

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/09/02/extinction-rebellion-co-founder-reveals-she-was-inspired-to-begin-the-climate-change-protest-movement-after-taking-psychedelic-medicines/

but that's not all, more to come when I am not busy!

I still suggest Greta to stick to her proper medication though!
She may be sticking to medication. What are we witnessing may be ....after medication...can only imagine what it would be like without it...

antichrist
27-10-2019, 06:45 PM
She may be sticking to medication. What are we witnessing may be ....after medication...can only imagine what it would be like without it...

You bully guys remind me of chess parents who stop playing when their children outdo them. Get off your high horses. Isn't terrible a teenager can make you feel inadequate.

Patrick Byrom
27-10-2019, 06:58 PM
wow....That means as far as running chess tournament and understanding of chess world is concerned...someone can give us all a simul...so what are we talking about? So is Greta a ''Grandmaster''? what would her ''rating'' be? Good thing about chess...screaming at everyone and hating everyone does not add rating points ...while in Greta's case - it did.You're not keeping up - I was referring to Bradbrook, not Thunberg. Thunberg probably does know more physics than ER, but she correctly tells us to rely on the experts for the science (ie, not ER!).

ER
27-10-2019, 06:59 PM
You bully guys remind me of chess parents who stop playing when their children outdo them. Get off your high horses. Isn't terrible a teenager can make you feel inadequate.

what teenager you leek? she's a 47yo with a pierced nose ffs. Do you want Greta ending up like her?

ER
27-10-2019, 07:11 PM
oh btw do you remember your mate Al (not Grassby)?


https://youtu.be/0zadh9dEhAM

antichrist
27-10-2019, 07:28 PM
You're not keeping up - I was referring to Bradbrook, not Thunberg. Thunberg probably does know more physics than ER, but she correctly tells us to rely on the experts for the science (ie, not ER!).

One of those Peta-tee shirted ladies was grabbing grapes and eating out of many bags at Woollies while I was trying to find a chaste bag, she was in real hurry so had no intention of buying any. So after she shuttled off I called her back and told her help herself more and make every bag look like s..t. Not sure if she got the hint but her school age daughter whom I teach chess to at the local school got the message and was telling her mother.

Patrick Byrom
27-10-2019, 09:43 PM
oh btw do you remember your mate Al (not Grassby)? ... I already debunked that one on Chess Chat. If the video included all of what Gore said, rather than a misleadingly edited quote, it would be obvious what he meant.

But the Arctic sea ice minimum this year was the second lowest on record, so Gore was definitely right to warn us about its decline.

ER
28-10-2019, 07:34 AM
oh btw do you remember your mate Al (not Grassby)?


https://youtu.be/0zadh9dEhAM

It's really hard to tell which is more laughable, Al's false prophesies
or Gail's hypocrisy

3934

For the whole infuriatingly informative article please click on the following link

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7569577/Hypocrisy-Extinction-Rebellion-founders-11-000-mile-trip-Costa-Rica.html

Ian Murray
28-10-2019, 08:03 AM
More than 240 conservation scientists have called on Scott Morrison to drop his opposition to stronger environment laws and seize a “once-in-a-decade opportunity” to fix a system that is failing to stem a worsening extinction crisis. With the federal government due to announce a legislated review of the Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act, scientists have signed an open letter to the PM urging him to increase spending and back laws to help protect the natural world. The letter says three native species have become extinct in the past decade and 17 others could follow in the next 20 years.

An open letter to the Prime Minister from 247 concerned scientists (https://www.envirolawsopenletter.com.au)

antichrist
28-10-2019, 08:39 AM
But if she wins with ER then her travel will also be curtailed or be heavily penalised for carbon taxes. She is only getting the limelight because all you knockers don't have your knickers in a knot and doing the right thing. You and her deserve each other

ER
28-10-2019, 11:56 AM
Meanwhile in the real world
3935
Slight drop this year in OZ but not the end of 2019 yet and those figures usually
depict situation at the end of FY. Shares doing ok though


But if she wins with ER then her travel will also be curtailed or be heavily penalised for carbon taxes. She is only getting the limelight
because all you knockers don't have your knickers in a knot and doing the right thing. You and her deserve each other

Excellent piece!!! Classic down to earth Australiana!!!
Told you take control of the climate warming thingy! (bzzt not that you talk less shit than the others
but at least you have this rare sense of humour that makes me laugh!) :D

Blunderbuss
28-10-2019, 12:19 PM
Donna Zuckerberg (sister of Mark) and Prof. Helen Morales: What the ancient Greeks can teach us about Greta Thunberg trolls (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50014575)

antichrist
28-10-2019, 01:09 PM
Donna Zuckerberg (sister of Mark) and Prof. Helen Morales: What the ancient Greeks can teach us about Greta Thunberg trolls (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50014575)

It is the same with Gillard, Kearney (?) NZ Prime Minister and Hilary Clinton. They were all and still are being picked on and bullied. But there was one beauty that I reported on in the shoutbox when one of the USA presidential female candidates was being bullied on by Trump junior she replied that he would not even know a joke if he was raised by one.

ER
28-10-2019, 05:38 PM
but her school age daughter whom I teach chess to at the local school

Amazing, I didn't know you 're teaching chess at schools!!! Good on ya!
Did you do the relevant FIDE accreditation course at Byron? Brisbane? Sydney?
Or do you have some sort of special ACF permission to teach at schools.
I am asking because I couldn't find your name on the FIDE and/or ACF lists!
I must be making a mistake!
Could you please explain?

MichaelBaron
28-10-2019, 05:52 PM
It's really hard to tell which is more laughable, Al's false prophesies
or Gail's hypocrisy

3934

For the whole infuriatingly informative article please click on the following link

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7569577/Hypocrisy-Extinction-Rebellion-founders-11-000-mile-trip-Costa-Rica.html

Of course...how else to spend all the money she generates through her ''save the world'' campaigns :)
And Greta must be not using any energy...

Ian Murray
28-10-2019, 06:26 PM
Of course...how else to spend all the money she generates through her ''save the world'' campaigns :)
And Greta must be not using any energy...

Did you read post #5267?

antichrist
28-10-2019, 06:34 PM
Amazing, I didn't know you 're teaching chess at schools!!! Good on ya!
Did you do the relevant FIDE accreditation course at Byron? Brisbane? Sydney?
Or do you have some sort of special ACF permission to teach at schools.
I am asking because I couldn't find your name on the FIDE and/or ACF lists!
I must be making a mistake!
Could you please explain?
Decades ago they were proposing grading for coaches that I was pursuing but they either got distracted or I did so just do informally. I also used to teach in some community colleges in Sydney. Hopefully my shoveling work will be over by 2020 and I can get more heavily into it. One of my students whom did not know the game before did a smothermate on her first round of competition. I was so proud of her I stopped all play for everyone to examine. I only have to have that clearance from the police to work with children. As it is a passive occupation I doubt it had climate change consequences.

Patrick Byrom
28-10-2019, 07:00 PM
Of course...how else to spend all the money she generates through her ''save the world'' campaigns :) And Greta must be not using any energy...According to Wikipedia, Bradbrook worked as a scientist and then helping the disabled: "From 2003 to 2017 she was 'director of strategy' at Citizens Online, an organisation promoting wider internet access for disabled users, including launching a 'Fix the Web' campaign in November 2010.". Her trip to Costa Rica was before she started ER.

Ian Murray
28-10-2019, 07:25 PM
Extinction Rebellion’s co-founder on bringing London to a standstill (https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/extinction-rebellion-co-founder-gail-bradbrook-interview-a4196266.html)
Evening Standard
23.7.19


...Before we talk about what happened in Costa Rica, Bradbrook establishes that she still feels guilty about flying there. “I planted trees but the idea that you can offset carbon is nonsense — planting trees is more a way of acknowledging harm and apologising.”...

Giving up travelling is not realistic (not everyone can cross the Atlantic by wind and solar power, like Greta). On my South American holiday last March, I flew 30,000 km at a cost of 6.9 tCO2e in emissions. I paid $70 USD in tree-planting to offset the carbon - carbon offsets are the final option for the average traveller, after choosing the airline with the lowest emissions.

antichrist
28-10-2019, 09:42 PM
How times have changed, my grandparents lived close to 70 years in OZ and did not return once to the old country. There would just be the occasional letter. But they had plenty of relos here in close range. They never drove motorised vehicles only horse and coach. Probably close to zero pollution-
- now a few generations later almost everyone pollutes very badly and are a lot less healthy.

MichaelBaron
29-10-2019, 02:35 AM
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/city-commuters-warned-as-protesters-plan-to-swarm-major-mining-conference-20191028-p534sn.html?fbclid=IwAR1fR97zV1_H0DrSzbGlFz9Jo0Fmi P30aqPmk8rO7hgxxtFFotZ8IIa7A-Y

Looks like more disruptions to the lives of ordinary people to come...
i find it amazing though that while police knows in advance what may/is likely to happen. If it happens they will again ''take time'' to deal with it....
Would take minutes to clear the streets from these clowns if only done properly.

MichaelBaron
29-10-2019, 02:36 AM
Extinction Rebellion’s co-founder on bringing London to a standstill (https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/extinction-rebellion-co-founder-gail-bradbrook-interview-a4196266.html)
Evening Standard
23.7.19


...Before we talk about what happened in Costa Rica, Bradbrook establishes that she still feels guilty about flying there. “I planted trees but the idea that you can offset carbon is nonsense — planting trees is more a way of acknowledging harm and apologising.”...

Giving up travelling is not realistic (not everyone can cross the Atlantic by wind and solar power, like Greta). On my South American holiday last March, I flew 30,000 km at a cost of 6.9 tCO2e in emissions. I paid $70 USD in tree-planting to offset the carbon - carbon offsets are the final option for the average traveller, after choosing the airline with the lowest emissions.

''I planted a tree'' ...shall we all plant a tree every time we fly....if i fly to Brisbane - a little tree and if i fly to Singapore...plant a bigger one?

antichrist
29-10-2019, 04:59 AM
''I planted a tree'' ...shall we all plant a tree every time we fly....if i fly to Brisbane - a little tree and if i fly to Singapore...plant a bigger one?

I don't believe it is any significant compensation or relevant contribution. The damage by jet travel is immediately significant whereas if those trees survive it will take decades for them to partially then fully contribute. By then it is already too late. As well more green stuff in volume is been bulldozed or burnt each year than is been immediately replaced by all
replanting combined that is actually breathing. It is only a delusion fix. When the Chinese were replanting Whitlam trees 50 years ago that actually meant something because they were still using bicycles and virtually no aeroplanes and especially jets. Now that we have internet with viber etc most air travel should be banned. Second best is best when it saves the plane. I dont think I have driven a motor vehicle to specifically play chess in at least 16 years if not 18 years. I just refuse to do. When I do use a vehicle intending to play chess I overload my self with so many jobs and passengers that chess rarely gets a look in.

antichrist
29-10-2019, 05:06 AM
If the missus has forgotten one ingredient for cooking I refuse to pollute and we go without . She has accepted that now and appreciates we must save the planet for our children's sake. I may take the bike or walk though.

ER
29-10-2019, 05:57 AM
well looks like vox populi and State determination to give them a few valid lessons has led to XR mobs to withdraw (I hope permanently) from their
illegal and nonsensical methods of disrupting public transport, causing people difficulties to go on with their normal way of life as well as
putting at risk people's lives and health. Obviously, the common folk so harshly targeted by XRs silly tactics have a couple of wise words to tell them.

Some comment re how Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen would have shorted this out (6.57) :D (*)

Also some very interesting information about a typical (couch surfer as he describes himself) XR protester - Mr. E.S. Herbert (at 7.02)


https://youtu.be/ewmbDoEWYiw?t=420

Well the "cane toads" (that's how they are described by the SKY NEWS presenter) have made themselves scarce from our streets which is a positive point.

(*)I SOLEMNY :D :P declare that I am NOT a fan of Sir Joh and his politics particularly of his gerrymandering practices, condoning police raids on abortion clinics
and orders to tear condom machines from walls at the University of Queensland. Well, his long tenure as a premier was also a result of a weak as piss QLD Labor Party at the time.
Funny that it's a Labor Party premier who decided that enough is bloody enough and took actions to stop the rot!

Ian Murray
29-10-2019, 07:06 AM
''I planted a tree'' ...shall we all plant a tree every time we fly....if i fly to Brisbane - a little tree and if i fly to Singapore...plant a bigger one?

The rule-of-thumb is ten trees per tonne of CO2e

https://carbonfund.org/product-category/air-travel/

The easy way is to tick the box when you book your flight. Qantas has one of the best offsetting programs in the business:

https://www.qantas.com/au/en/qantas-group/acting-responsibly/our-planet/carbon-offsetting.html

ER
29-10-2019, 08:41 AM
https://www.3aw.com.au/nasty-scenes-as-anti-mining-protests-clash-with-police-outside-imarc/

As long as they don't block trafic, disrupt public harmony, and putting citizen's life at risk they can demonstrate to their heart's desire.
They can be gassed with pepper spray, being tackled by police horses, clobbered over their heads, handcuffed and arrested at their ease! :D

Patrick Byrom
29-10-2019, 10:37 AM
''I planted a tree'' ...shall we all plant a tree every time we fly....if i fly to Brisbane - a little tree and if i fly to Singapore...plant a bigger one?Trees absorb carbon dioxide, of course, removing the amount that was produced by the flights.

idledim
29-10-2019, 10:47 AM
Trees absorb carbon dioxide, of course, removing the amount that was produced by the flights.

Are you sure? Unless you plant them in the tropics, you're probably more likely to be contributing to global warming.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00122-z.

Patrick Byrom
29-10-2019, 11:14 AM
Are you sure? Unless you plant them in the tropics, you're probably more likely to be contributing to global warming.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00122-z.Not according to that article: " Several analyses in the past few years suggest that these warming effects from forests could partially or fully offset their cooling ability." So the most likely outcome is that you are reducing global heating, but perhaps not by as much as hoped.

Blunderbuss
29-10-2019, 11:16 AM
Are you sure? Unless you plant them in the tropics, you're probably more likely to be contributing to global warming.

The Nature article quotes Dr. Nadine Unger.

On Friday, Dr. Nadine Unger wrote an op-ed in the New York Times entitled, “To Save the Planet, Don’t Plant Trees.” A group of 31 scientists took issue with her logic and have responded in a one-page letter...

http://www.planetexperts.com/climate-scientists-respond-dr-nadine-unger/ (http://www.planetexperts.com/climate-scientists-respond-dr-nadine-unger/)

Blunderbuss
29-10-2019, 11:19 AM
However planting-billions-trees-best-tackle-climate-crisis-scientists (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/04/planting-billions-trees-best-tackle-climate-crisis-scientists-canopy-emissions)


Earlier research by Crowther’s team calculated that there are currently about 3tn trees in the world, which is about half the number that existed before the rise of human civilisation. “We still have a net loss of about 10bn trees a year,” Crowther said.


And yet oddly global heating continues apace?!

idledim
29-10-2019, 11:51 AM
The Nature article quotes Dr. Nadine Unger.

On Friday, Dr. Nadine Unger wrote an op-ed in the New York Times entitled, “To Save the Planet, Don’t Plant Trees.” A group of 31 scientists took issue with her logic and have responded in a one-page letter...

http://www.planetexperts.com/climate-scientists-respond-dr-nadine-unger/ (http://www.planetexperts.com/climate-scientists-respond-dr-nadine-unger/)



https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tree-farms-will-not-save-us-from-global-warming/

A study published in the journal Nature Climate Change in January is among the latest to raise doubts. It suggests that the large-scale deployment of BECCS—which calls for massive, managed plantations of trees—would likely require an unsustainable use of land, water and other resources.

“Our main message is that really relying on BECCS via the land system is a very high risk to the Earth system in general,” said the paper’s lead author, Vera Heck of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/tropical-forests-cool-earth/

Apparently, these natural carbon sinks only do their job effectively in tropical regions; in other areas, they have either no impact or actually contribute to warming the planet. In fact, according to this model, by the year 2100, if all the forests were cut and left to rot, the annual global mean temperature would decrease by more than 0.5 degree Fahrenheit.

Ian Murray
29-10-2019, 12:46 PM
Planting trees on a massive scale is not a silver bullet to solve global warming. But it is a legitimate way to offset targeted emissions such as air travel.

Blunderbuss
29-10-2019, 01:33 PM
In fact, according to this model, by the year 2100, if all the forests were cut and left to rot, the annual global mean temperature would decrease by more than 0.5 degree Fahrenheit.


https://youtu.be/tUdI4Sc8Jks

From: https://www.crowtherlab.com/ (https://www.crowtherlab.com/)

Patrick Byrom
29-10-2019, 06:11 PM
Planting trees on a massive scale is not a silver bullet to solve global warming. But it is a legitimate way to offset targeted emissions such as air travel.Exactly. Nobody here is suggesting that the sole solution to global heating is a massive tree planting program. However, it is an effective way to provide carbon offsets, as the current scientific consensus is that trees reduce global heating.

Patrick Byrom
29-10-2019, 06:18 PM
''I planted a tree'' ...shall we all plant a tree every time we fly....if i fly to Brisbane - a little tree and if i fly to Singapore...plant a bigger one?My offset to fly to Townsville with Qantas is a whopping $3, so I hope that everyone is doing this. And it's not just for planting trees:

7,000 hectares of native Tasmanian forest is still standing and protected into the future;
50,000 years of knowledge is being used by Indigenous rangers to prevent wildfires in the North Kimberley;
812 wind turbines are providing clean, renewable energy to communities in Southern India.

Thebes
29-10-2019, 07:10 PM
''I planted a tree'' ...shall we all plant a tree every time we fly....if i fly to Brisbane - a little tree and if i fly to Singapore...plant a bigger one?

The fact that this seems absurd to you shows how out of touch you are Mr Baron

Desmond
29-10-2019, 07:35 PM
The consumer opting to pay the offset of the pollution is good; the polluter having to pay it would be better.

Ian Murray
29-10-2019, 08:11 PM
My offset to fly to Townsville with Qantas is a whopping $3, so I hope that everyone is doing this. And it's not just for planting trees:

7,000 hectares of native Tasmanian forest is still standing and protected into the future;
50,000 years of knowledge is being used by Indigenous rangers to prevent wildfires in the North Kimberley;
812 wind turbines are providing clean, renewable energy to communities in Southern India.

$3 is dirt cheap. I wonder how Qantas works it out - total emissions divided by number of seats presumably, with a premium on first/business class seats.

According to myclimate (https://co2.myclimate.org/en/portfolios?calculation_id=2791850&localized_currency=USD), you created 0.457tCO2 emissions on your Brisbane to Townsville return trip, worth USD13 in offsets.

Ian Murray
29-10-2019, 08:37 PM
The consumer opting to pay the offset of the pollution is good; the polluter having to pay it would be better.

Which was the case, until Tony Abbott came along with his "axe the tax" sound bite

Patrick Byrom
29-10-2019, 08:55 PM
$3 is dirt cheap. I wonder how Qantas works it out - total emissions divided by number of seats presumably, with a premium on first/business class seats. According to myclimate (https://co2.myclimate.org/en/portfolios?calculation_id=2791850&localized_currency=USD), you created 0.457tCO2 emissions on your Brisbane to Townsville return trip, worth USD13 in offsets.It's $1.50 each way, which apparently offsets 113.54 kilograms.

Patrick Byrom
29-10-2019, 09:06 PM
Given the endless whinging about ER here, this is surprising (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/29/essential-poll-most-think-economic-stimulus-more-important-than-surplus):

Voters were also asked questions this week about Extinction Rebellion, a global protest movement calling for aggressive action on the climate crisis. The group is spearheading protests in major cities around the world, and its tactics are polarising. Sentiment in the survey is also polarised. For voters in the sample who are aware of Extinction Rebellion and its motives, 52% support the campaign either strongly or somewhat, and 44% oppose the protest activity either strongly or somewhat.

Ian Murray
29-10-2019, 09:08 PM
It's $1.50 each way, which apparently offsets 113.54 kilograms.

Interesting. That's a quarter of the 457 kg calculated by myclimate. Maybe its just Qantas efficiency - they set a record recently for an international flight which left zero landfill waste.

MichaelBaron
29-10-2019, 09:13 PM
https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/climate-change-activists-and-police-clash-outside-mining-conference-in-melbourne/news-story/e1bdb20d7ebf56e5f4b451606bbeef8d

They are now attacking horses....on a day off from protesting against cruelty to animals :)

ER
29-10-2019, 09:16 PM
https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/climate-change-activists-and-police-clash-outside-mining-conference-in-melbourne/news-story/e1bdb20d7ebf56e5f4b451606bbeef8d

They are now attacking horses....on a day off from protesting against cruelty to animals :)

A very valid point.

They also got very violent today against police too and they injured 3-4 cops.
At least the State has begun taking measures to protect the citizens from the lunatics!
50 arrests were made and I hope they won't get away with just a slap on the wrist!

Patrick Byrom
29-10-2019, 10:20 PM
... They also got very violent today against police too and they injured 3-4 cops. At least the State has begun taking measures to protect the citizens from the lunatics! 50 arrests were made and I hope they won't get away with just a slap on the wrist!There seem to be different reports of this protest: (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/29/climate-protesters-clash-with-police-outside-melbourne-mining-conference)

A climate protester has been taken to hospital and more than 20 others have been arrested while blockading an international mining conference in Melbourne after violent clashes erupted between the group and police. ... Two people were also arrested for assaulting a police horse. ... One police officer received minor injuries during the arrests and was treated at the scene before being taken to hospital. A protester was also taken to hospital in a stable condition after she was injured by a police horse.

MichaelBaron
29-10-2019, 11:49 PM
A very valid point.

They also got very violent today against police too and they injured 3-4 cops.
At least the State has begun taking measures to protect the citizens from the lunatics!
50 arrests were made and I hope they won't get away with just a slap on the wrist!

Even a slap would be better than nothing..as long as its a decent slap!

MichaelBaron
29-10-2019, 11:50 PM
There seem to be different reports of this protest: (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/29/climate-protesters-clash-with-police-outside-melbourne-mining-conference)

A climate protester has been taken to hospital and more than 20 others have been arrested while blockading an international mining conference in Melbourne after violent clashes erupted between the group and police. ... Two people were also arrested for assaulting a police horse. ... One police officer received minor injuries during the arrests and was treated at the scene before being taken to hospital. A protester was also taken to hospital in a stable condition after she was injured by a police horse.
Again I am in positive mode today: 20 arrested is better than nothing!

Ian Murray
30-10-2019, 07:08 AM
Again I am in positive mode today: 20 arrested is better than nothing!

Only 20 is disappointing. The aim is many more


...The group has become increasingly active in Australia, staging numerous street demonstrations in capital cities. While the numbers of activists being arrested has grown, so too has the number of people taking part in the protests.

The organisation uses arrest as a tactic. Co-founder Roger Hallam has said "letters, emailing, marches don’t work. You need about 400 people to go to prison. About two to three thousand people to be arrested."

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/climate-change-activists-and-police-clash-outside-mining-conference-in-melbourne/news-story/e1bdb20d7ebf56e5f4b451606bbeef8d

Ian Murray
30-10-2019, 07:21 AM
Coal Giant Murray Energy Files for Bankruptcy Despite Trump’s Support (https://insideclimatenews.org/news/29102019/coal-bankruptcy-bob-murray-energy-chapter-11-trump-regulations-rollback)
InsideClimateNews
29.10.19

Murray Energy, the U.S. coal company whose CEO's "wish list" was a virtual template for the Trump administration's rollback of federal environmental and climate regulations, filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday.

It's the latest in a wave of bankruptcy filings by coal companies that are struggling to compete in a market where their product—once the lowest-cost fuel for producing electricity—is now more expensive than natural gas and renewable sources.

Among them, Murray's bankruptcy stands out, in part, because of its CEO Robert Murray's political fundraising for President Donald Trump and personal lobbying for rollbacks of key federal regulations in an effort to prop up the failing coal industry.

"It's fair to say that Murray has been the last coal optimist in the country," said Sandy Buchanan, the Cleveland-based executive director of the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis (IEFFA), a nonprofit clean-energy research group. "He's devoted his life to this industry and tried to make it work in one way or another. That company declaring bankruptcy is very significant."

In 2017, Murray gave the Trump administration a policy wish list that included many actions since taken by the administration, including moving to withdraw the U.S. from the Paris climate accord, eliminating the Clean Power Plan rules for coal-fired power plant emissions, scrapping cross-state air pollution rules, and changing the mine regulatory bodies that had fined his operations many times....

ER
30-10-2019, 11:19 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/byron-bays-illegal-campers-draw-the-ire-of-native-title-holders-authorities/ar-AAJy7m0?ocid=spartanntp

I wonder whose side xstinkers would be in this one! :D

AC your home ground has been invaded!!!

Urgent mesures are required!

Stop sitting on the bloody fence and take a stand! :D :P

idledim
30-10-2019, 11:24 AM
https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/climate-change-activists-and-police-clash-outside-mining-conference-in-melbourne/news-story/e1bdb20d7ebf56e5f4b451606bbeef8d

They are now attacking horses....on a day off from protesting against cruelty to animals :)

I hope the horse is in a stable condition.

Desmond
30-10-2019, 11:25 AM
I hope the horse is in a stable condition.

:lol:

Probably worth some HCD's.

Blunderbuss
30-10-2019, 11:34 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/byron-bays-illegal-campers-draw-the-ire-of-native-title-holders-authorities/ar-AAJy7m0?ocid=spartanntp

I think the MSN piece has been lifted from the original here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-30/byron-bay-homeless-going-bush-to-find-a-better-life/11650904 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-30/byron-bay-homeless-going-bush-to-find-a-better-life/11650904)

This caught my attention from the ABC write up: "A social services report shows some 450,000 people are living below the poverty line in regional NSW"

There seems to be some strange crossover between climate and Welfare spending #post 1186 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?16843-Welfare-spending&p=455709&viewfull=1#post455709), right now...


"This is a rich country, supposed to be the land of a fair go. Putting people who are without work because of structural economic failures to deliver full employment on pitifully low payments,..."

antichrist
30-10-2019, 11:38 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/byron-bays-illegal-campers-draw-the-ire-of-native-title-holders-authorities/ar-AAJy7m0?ocid=spartanntp

I wonder whose side xstinkers would be in this one! :D

AC your home ground has been invaded!!!

Urgent mesures are required!

Stop sitting on the bloody fence and take a stand! :D :P

that 3rd pic is very close to my abode. They are usually harmless people who had one ganja too many, some from previously good careers. One guy I met, his wife a "friend" of mine, she created fraudulent docs and she had sold his place up whilst he was visiting his dying bro in WA so he had nowhere until the courts gave back to him a few years back. His children would turn up at my place to get away from his tent when he had custody. Then they would run away from their shocking mother and come here but I had to turn them back after a few days due to them being minors and I wanted to protect my child safety status so I could still teach chess in schools. so there you have all the gossip. The mother had been having it on with a local doctor who got barred from medicine for a year over it. The husband used to bicycle all the way to Ballina to visit a sister, but he did not mention doing it to prevent climate change. Then he got dementia and the now ex-wife looked after him in her garage.

Blunderbuss
30-10-2019, 11:44 AM
They are now attacking horses....on a day off from protesting against cruelty to animals :)

Actually I think the humans came off worse: preliminary-statement-of-concern-imarc-conference (https://melbourneactivistlegalsupport.org/2019/10/29/preliminary-statement-of-concern-imarc-conference/)


"Police mounted branch have been recorded moving directly into crowds to push back protesters. Multiple injuries have been reported including one activist at 8.00am who received medical attention by emergency service workers with a suspected broken arm and leg. It is well recognised that horses can cause severe, bone breaking injuries."

ER
30-10-2019, 03:54 PM
that 3rd pic is very close to my abode. They are usually harmless people who had one ganja too many, some from previously good careers. One guy I met, his wife a "friend" of mine, she created fraudulent docs and she had sold his place up whilst he was visiting his dying bro in WA so he had nowhere until the courts gave back to him a few years back. His children would turn up at my place to get away from his tent when he had custody. Then they would run away from their shocking mother and come here but I had to turn them back after a few days due to them being minors and I wanted to protect my child safety status so I could still teach chess in schools. so there you have all the gossip. The mother had been having it on with a local doctor who got barred from medicine for a year over it. The husband used to bicycle all the way to Ballina to visit a sister, but he did not mention doing it to prevent climate change. Then he got dementia and the now ex-wife looked after him in her garage.

you did the right think methinks, good on ya! unfortunately there isn't any law to prevent human injustice and tragedy of that kind! :(
After the results of such cruel acts, it's often too late to recover physically, emotionally and mentally!

MichaelBaron
30-10-2019, 04:34 PM
Actually I think the humans came off worse: preliminary-statement-of-concern-imarc-conference (https://melbourneactivistlegalsupport.org/2019/10/29/preliminary-statement-of-concern-imarc-conference/)


"Police mounted branch have been recorded moving directly into crowds to push back protesters. Multiple injuries have been reported including one activist at 8.00am who received medical attention by emergency service workers with a suspected broken arm and leg. It is well recognised that horses can cause severe, bone breaking injuries."


Do note that the source of the article is: Melbourne Activist Legal Support :)

Ian Murray
30-10-2019, 05:19 PM
Do note that the source of the article is: Melbourne Activist Legal Support :)

Right. They're the lawyers who are always there observing and representing the arrested activists. The police commissioner is the first to get a copy of their reports, noting in particular instances of police acting beyond the law.

Ian Murray
30-10-2019, 06:55 PM
https://www.facebook.com/SamanthaRatnamGreens/videos/558478551630320/?t=0

"This morning I witnessed this disgusting display of police force against people peacefully protesting the International Mining and Resources Conference – attended by fossil fuel companies and their CEO's from around the world.

Victoria is clearly joining the rest of Australia in a crackdown on the right to protest and our democracy. The Victorian Labor Government is protecting corporations and big business, rather than our communities."

MichaelBaron
30-10-2019, 08:24 PM
Right. They're the lawyers who are always there observing and representing the arrested activists. The police commissioner is the first to get a copy of their reports, noting in particular instances of police acting beyond the law.

police under radar...any comments on the activists?

Ian Murray
30-10-2019, 08:28 PM
police under radar...any comments on the activists?

Noisy but non-violent. Exercising their right within the law to peaceful political expression

https://melbourneactivistlegalsupport.org/2019/10/06/open-letter-to-victoria-police-disruption-to-others-does-not-justify-limiting-right-to-peaceful-assembly/

antichrist
30-10-2019, 09:28 PM
police under radar...any comments on the activists?

Michael, I hope you did not meet Kasparov when he was over here because he believed in the right to demonstrate and protect one's rights.

Ian Murray
31-10-2019, 10:17 AM
Greta Thunberg rejects environmental prize, saying: ‘The climate doesn’t need awards’ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2019/10/30/greta-thunberg-rejects-prestigious-honor-saying-climate-crisis-needs-action-not-awards/)
Washington Post
31.10.19

Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg has turned down a prestigious environmental honor. The reason? She doesn’t think the climate movement needs any more awards.

In a lengthy Instagram post in which she is pictured bundled up in a yellow raincoat, looking pensively into the camera, Thunberg, 16, outlined why she will not be accepting the Nordic Council’s 2019 Environmental Award.

“What we need is for our politicians and the people in power [to] start to listen to the current, best available science,” she wrote, acknowledging the prestige of the award and the esteemed climate reputation that many Nordic countries have.

Thunberg was nominated by Sweden and Norway for the prize, which is awarded to a company, organization or person for noteworthy efforts to “integrate respect for nature and the environment into their business or work or for some other form of extraordinary initiative on behalf of nature and the environment,” according to the Nordic Council and the Nordic Council of Ministers website.

The award, which was established in 1995, comes with a cash prize of 350,000 Danish krone, or about $52,000. Thunberg also said in her Instagram statement that she was turning down the money until leaders in Nordic countries “act in accordance with what sciences says is needed to limit the global temperature rise.”....

MichaelBaron
31-10-2019, 01:18 PM
Noisy but non-violent. Exercising their right within the law to peaceful political expression

https://melbourneactivistlegalsupport.org/2019/10/06/open-letter-to-victoria-police-disruption-to-others-does-not-justify-limiting-right-to-peaceful-assembly/

blocking people's access to facilities, closing the roads - is it acceptable?

Blunderbuss
31-10-2019, 01:40 PM
blocking people's access to facilities, closing the roads - is it acceptable?

"we're not the dangerous thing on the road they are" - click on the image to play video


https://www.facebook.com/lukebuckmaster/videos/10162569000070416/

More here www.facebook.com/XRVictoria (https://www.facebook.com/XRVictoria/) including some positive dancing IMARC actions (without road blocks).

MichaelBaron
31-10-2019, 02:53 PM
"we're not the dangerous thing on the road they are"


https://www.facebook.com/lukebuckmaster/videos/10162569000070416/

More here www.facebook.com/XRVictoria (https://www.facebook.com/XRVictoria/) including some positive dancing IMARC actions (without road blocks).

Positive dancing should not block public and private transport access.

antichrist
31-10-2019, 04:02 PM
Positive dancing should not block public and private transport access.

I usually don't agree with such widespread disruptive protest but unfortunately this issue is lacking leadership in this country due to Abbott, Rudd and Gillard plus others of course. And when it is too late in a few decades time when these oldies will have expired but stashed away fortunes for their children and leaving a stuffed environment what will the ordinary person be left with??? Abbott is another supposed God follower but does not mind God's creatures being made extinct by climate change etc..

ER
31-10-2019, 06:55 PM
… And when it is too late in a few decades time when these oldies will have expired but stashed away fortunes for their children …

sound and logical advice!!! that's why I will spend the bloody lot to the last cent before I cark it (not that I 've much left anyway).
Tell that to some who sit on millions of private investment! I don't care for either since as I 've said many times I don't believe in
such things as wills and inheritances. I got none from anyone I 'll leave none to anyone! :D
Regardless the situation, I won't rely on aged pensions and crap like that when I go broke... my superannuation, thanks to Peter Costello
and John Howard, will provide me with much more cash than the centrelink peanuts! :D :P oh yeah, now, between us
you don't really believe in all those silly climate warming theories do you? :D :P have a good one!

Ian Murray
31-10-2019, 06:56 PM
"we're not the dangerous thing on the road they are" - click on the image to play video


https://www.facebook.com/lukebuckmaster/videos/10162569000070416/

More here www.facebook.com/XRVictoria (https://www.facebook.com/XRVictoria/) including some positive dancing IMARC actions (without road blocks).

The video doesn't appear for me

Ian Murray
31-10-2019, 07:00 PM
sound and logical advice!!! that's why I will spend the bloody lot to the last cent before I cark it (not that I 've much left anyway).
Tell that to some who sit on millions of private investment!...

Like MB's mum and dad, hoarding away rather than get some enjoyment out of their savings

Ian Murray
31-10-2019, 07:45 PM
Interesting. That's a quarter of the 457 kg calculated by myclimate. Maybe its just Qantas efficiency - they set a record recently for an international flight which left zero landfill waste.

Our conversation prompted me today to chase up the carbon offsets on my recent international flights.

Brisbane-Hong Kong return plus Hong Kong - Beijing and Shanghai - Hong Kong with Cathay was $HK26.81 = $A5.60
Brisbane - Buenos Aires business class with Air NZ was $NZ20.52 = $A19.00
Los Angeles - Taipei, Taipei - Brisbane with EVA was $US10.96 = $A16

My conscience is clear!

Desmond
31-10-2019, 08:08 PM
@sortius (https://twitter.com/sortius/status/1189073604958310400)
Oct 28

Vic Police in a nutshell

People: there's a Nazi rally happening, do something!
VicPol: sorry, there's no laws we can use to do anything about it
People: we want fossil fuel companies to stop killing the planet!
VicPol: GET OUT THE BATONS AND HORSES!!!!!

Blunderbuss
31-10-2019, 08:14 PM
The video doesn't appear for me

Maybe this instead: https://www.facebook.com/lukebuckmaster/videos/10162569000070416/ (https://www.facebook.com/lukebuckmaster/videos/10162569000070416/)

Ian Murray
31-10-2019, 08:34 PM
Maybe this instead: https://www.facebook.com/lukebuckmaster/videos/10162569000070416/ (https://www.facebook.com/lukebuckmaster/videos/10162569000070416/)

Ah, that's better!

$500 fine. I'd like to be arrested also, but not sure if I can afford it.

Kevin Bonham
31-10-2019, 11:10 PM
Some polling on Extinction Rebellion here:

https://www.essentialvision.com.au/awareness-support-extinction-rebellion

The results are a lot better for XR than I think some here would have thought. However the question design is rather skewed. " to push for governments to act on climate change and move towards renewable energy" implies that governments are not doing those things at all, which is contestable at least. "to take much more action on climate change and move much more towards renewable energy" would be a sounder wording, but I wouldn't include any such words at all. After all they have already screened out voters as aware of Extinction Rebellion or not aware, so with those who are aware there is no need to convey extra information about what XR is doing.

Unfortunately Essential is doing this sort of thing a lot lately, and in my view has got worse as a pollster since the election fail rather than better.

Patrick Byrom
01-11-2019, 12:05 AM
Some polling on Extinction Rebellion here: https://www.essentialvision.com.au/awareness-support-extinction-rebellion

The results are a lot better for XR than I think some here would have thought. However the question design is rather skewed. " to push for governments to act on climate change and move towards renewable energy" implies that governments are not doing those things at all, which is contestable at least. "to take much more action on climate change and move much more towards renewable energy" would be a sounder wording, but I wouldn't include any such words at all. After all they have already screened out voters as aware of Extinction Rebellion or not aware, so with those who are aware there is no need to convey extra information about what XR is doing. ... I posted about that earlier as well, because I was also very surprised by the majority support:

Given the endless whinging about ER here, this is surprising (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/29/essential-poll-most-think-economic-stimulus-more-important-than-surplus): ...

That is a good point about the question design, but I suspect that also by screening out voters who were unaware of ER, they may have screened out older voters who would not have supported it.

antichrist
01-11-2019, 08:12 AM
Our conversation prompted me today to chase up the carbon offsets on my recent international flights.

Brisbane-Hong Kong return plus Hong Kong - Beijing and Shanghai - Hong Kong with Cathay was $HK26.81 = $A5.60
Brisbane - Buenos Aires business class with Air NZ was $NZ20.52 = $A19.00
Los Angeles - Taipei, Taipei - Brisbane with EVA was $US10.96 = $A16

My conscience is clear!

Ian, I would not take any comfort about that tree planting. They are only planting seedlings about 6" high, how many generations will it be before those monsters are replacing the carbon that "you" are creating now??? If everyone takes your attitude the biosphere will be stuffed before the one billion seedings will do any good. Even with just current figures using jets it will also occur. It is closing the gate after the horses, dogs and rabbits have already bolted. If you said that you use jets because that one extra seat used probably makes no difference I could agree with you, though ethnically problematic. You cannot be blamed because it is a lack of leadership problem and rest of society problem and it is no material difference if you use that seat or not. But other people could read your posts here and believe that it is perfectly okay to use jet travel by just planting a few seedlings which is not the case. It is like shouting no fire when there is fire. (good analogy AC).

Ian Murray
01-11-2019, 10:09 AM
Ian, I would not take any comfort about that tree planting. They are only planting seedlings about 6" high, how many generations will it be before those monsters are replacing the carbon that "you" are creating now??? If everyone takes your attitude the biosphere will be stuffed before the one billion seedings will do any good. Even with just current figures using jets it will also occur. It is closing the gate after the horses, dogs and rabbits have already bolted. If you said that you use jets because that one extra seat used probably makes no difference I could agree with you, though ethnically problematic. You cannot be blamed because it is a lack of leadership problem and rest of society problem and it is no material difference if you use that seat or not. But other people could read your posts here and believe that it is perfectly okay to use jet travel by just planting a few seedlings which is not the case. It is like shouting no fire when there is fire. (good analogy AC).

There's a lot more to it than tree planting. Cathay Pacific (https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_AU/about-us/environment/fly-carbon-neutral-fly-greener/about-fly-greener/our-carbon-offset-projects.html) funds cook stoves in Bangladesh and clean energy in India, while EVA (https://www.evaair.com/en-global/about-eva-air/carbon-offset-project/) and Air New Zealand (https://www.airnewzealand.com.au/sustainability-customer-carbon-offset)contract theirs out to ClimateCare (https://climatecare.org/) (see their projects map).

Blunderbuss
01-11-2019, 10:44 AM
Some polling on Extinction Rebellion here:

https://www.essentialvision.com.au/awareness-support-extinction-rebellion

The results are a lot better for XR than I think some here would have thought. ...

I agree that the level of support is surprising. I’m less worried about the wording of the question when you consider the general negativity as described in post #5139 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?6637-Man-Made-Climate-Change-Issues-and-debates&p=455050&viewfull=1#post455050).

I’m dubious about polling generally because surely politics isn’t just about doing what is popular – unless I guess you’re a populist. But rather making the argument for less popular policy because in the longer term it’s the right thing to do.

A good example of this I lived through was the introduction of the Congestion Charge in London. Efforts to create similar schemes in other cities often fail because of negative polling. It’s ironic I guess that Ken Livingstone (as London Mayor) took the brunt of the pain while his successor Boris Johnson picked up most of the acclaim. The public bicycle hire system in London is universally known now as Boris Bikes, although the initial concept was announced by his predecessor Ken Livingstone, Livingstone said that the programme would herald a "cycling and walking transformation in London”, which by all accounts it has.

ER
01-11-2019, 01:52 PM
It is like shouting no fire when there is fire. (good analogy AC).

not one of your best. far from it!!! more like crying wolf when as it usually happens in yours and other posts in the climate, there isn't a wolf!

Patrick Byrom
01-11-2019, 06:25 PM
not one of your best. far from it!!! more like crying wolf when as it usually happens in yours and other posts in the climate, there isn't a wolf!Of course the point of the original story is that there was a wolf!

Blunderbuss
01-11-2019, 10:29 PM
George Orwell got another run today (see #post (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?17596-46th-Parliament-General-Discussion-Thread&p=455724&viewfull=1#post455724) for previous example), when the PM in his bonkers speech (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/01/as-he-rails-against-activism-morrison-turns-a-bit-sinister-a-little-bit-threatening) about goat’s cheese circles and progressivism today he used the term newspeak.

At the end a British journalist asks him a very good question – his reply well that’s straight out of 1984 newspeak or more plainly he lies just as he did recently at the UN.

@KetanJ0 (https://twitter.com/KetanJ0/status/1190235376029446144) - 1st Nov 2019

antichrist
01-11-2019, 10:35 PM
from the news:
Environmental activists have responded to Scott Morrison signalling a crackdown on what he calls their "selfish, indulgent and apocalyptic" actions with more protests.
-----------------------------------------------

Scomo criticises protestors for being apocalyptic (over something serious) whereas his religion is apocalyptic about stupid Bible stories. Kettle calling the pot black. (good analogy ACO

Kevin Bonham
01-11-2019, 11:02 PM
Scomo criticises protestors for being apocalyptic (over something serious) whereas his religion is apocalyptic about stupid Bible stories.

Is Morrison's own particular strain of the faith apocalyptic in terms of believing in impending End Times? I found it difficult to find clear information on this.

The speech by Morrison does at least seem to be glaringly hypocritical in that he reproaches demonstrators for being opponents of liberty but at the same time wants to ban campaigns for secondary boycotts. I have reservations about secondary boycott behaviour (if no one traded with anyone who traded with anyone they didn't like there would be not that much trade left!) but it is surely a liberty and as such should be defended.

Ian Murray
02-11-2019, 08:41 AM
The prime minister's rant targeted activists protesting against companies engaging in climate-averse enterprises like coal mining, because they threaten the economy. He has no concerns about climate risk affecting the wellbeing of humanity.


...Morrison, an evangelical Christian and a vocal supporter of President Trump, finds himself aligned with the U.S. leader on support for the coal industry. Australia is one of the largest coal producers on earth, with the industry supplying roughly 50,000 jobs but disproportionately responsible for greenhouse gas emissions.

During his speech, Morrison said his government was looking at “serious mechanisms that can successfully outlaw these indulgent and selfish practices that threaten the livelihoods of fellow Australians.” He argued that the “right to protest does not mean there is an unlimited license to disrupt people’s lives and disrespect your fellow Australians.”

Businesses linked to climate change were being refused banking, insurance and consulting services, Morrison said, due to the demands of activists. “I think some of our largest corporations should listen to and engage to their quiet shareholders, not just the noisy ones,” he said....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/11/01/australias-prime-minister-pledges-outlaw-climate-boycotts-arguing-they-threaten-economy/

It is not only activists who are highlighting climate risk to companies and their shareholders. So too are conservative business bodies like the Reserve Bank, ASIC and APRA:


Financial Stability Risks From Climate Change

Climate change is exposing financial institutions and the financial system more broadly to risks that will rise over time, if not addressed. According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), it will take significant effort to limit global warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels, as targeted in the Paris Agreement. Even if targets are met, this level of warming is likely to be accompanied by rising sea levels and an increase in the frequency and intensity of extreme weather (including storms, heatwaves and droughts). Some of these outcomes are already apparent (Graph C.1). These changes will create both financial and macroeconomic risks.

Reserve Bank of Australia (https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/fsr/2019/oct/box-c-financial-stability-risks-from-climate-change.html)

ASIC embeds climate risk disclosure in its rule book

...ASIC’s recognition that climate change is a systemic risk that could impact an entity’s financial prospects for future years puts greater pressure on companies to demonstrate the management of climate risks through its operational and financial reports. It implicitly shifts the onus onto listed entities to demonstrate why something as systemic as climate risk is not regarded as a material consideration for their business....

Energetics Insights (https://www.energetics.com.au/insights/thought-leadership/asic-embeds-climate-risk-disclosure-in-its-rule-book)

The weight of money: A business case for climate risk resilience

...The thrust of that speech – that financial institutions should consider climate change in the context of their strategic and operational risk management – is in line with international regulatory best practice, and developments such as the Financial Stability Board’s Taskforce on Climate-Related Financial Disclosures. Supported by more than 100 private firms responsible for assets worth more than $24 trillion, the Taskforce in June recommended development of a voluntary global framework on disclosure to improve the spread of climate-related information among investors, lenders and underwriters.

February’s speech also aligns with the views of other Australian financial organisations, including the Actuaries Institute, which last week warned many institutions were ill-prepared for the impact of rising temperatures and extreme weather on their balance sheets.

As the prudential regulator, APRA has a clear duty to warn the institutions we regulate if we identify risks that could threaten the interests of Australia’s financial beneficiaries or the overall stability of the system....

Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA) (https://www.apra.gov.au/news-and-publications/weight-of-money-a-business-case-for-climate-risk-resilience)

antichrist
02-11-2019, 09:05 AM
Is Morrison's own particular strain of the faith apocalyptic in terms of believing in impending End Times? I found it difficult to find clear information on this.

The speech by Morrison does at least seem to be glaringly hypocritical in that he reproaches demonstrators for being opponents of liberty but at the same time wants to ban campaigns for secondary boycotts. I have reservations about secondary boycott behaviour (if no one traded with anyone who traded with anyone they didn't like there would be not that much trade left!) but it is surely a liberty and as such should be defended.
I was only guessing re Scomo I think his brand is into God will make you rich if you make the pastor rich. Exactly what the original Proddos criticized the Holy Roman Catholic Church for selling Mary's breast milk to help finance building the Vatican. They could "officially" be apocalyptic but ignore due to making people think about next world not wealth in this world. The American type pastors want the cash.

Adamski
02-11-2019, 02:37 PM
Is Morrison's own particular strain of the faith apocalyptic in terms of believing in impending End Times? I found it difficult to find clear information on this.

The speech by Morrison does at least seem to be glaringly hypocritical in that he reproaches ..Kevin's question deserves a better answer. Morrison is a Pentecostal and the vast majority of Pentecostals(me included) believe that we are in the end times. The time remaining before Jesus returns is unknown but unlikely I believe to exceed 20o years. Biblcally, the "end times" began in the years depicted in the Book of Acts after Christ's resurrection, i.e. we have already been in the end times for nearly 2000 years.

Patrick Byrom
02-11-2019, 03:03 PM
Scomo criticises protestors for being apocalyptic (over something serious) whereas his religion is apocalyptic about stupid Bible stories. Kettle calling the pot black. (good analogy ACOChristianity was certainly rather apocalyptic when it started - for example, Mark 9:1: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." And, unlike ER, Jesus didn't restrict himself to non-violent protest - Matthew 21:12: "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, ... "

MichaelBaron
02-11-2019, 03:24 PM
I agree that the level of support is surprising. I’m less worried about the wording of the question when you consider the general negativity as described in post #5139 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?6637-Man-Made-Climate-Change-Issues-and-debates&p=455050&viewfull=1#post455050).

I’m dubious about polling generally because surely politics isn’t just about doing what is popular – unless I guess you’re a populist. But rather making the argument for less popular policy because in the longer term it’s the right thing to do.

A good example of this I lived through was the introduction of the Congestion Charge in London. Efforts to create similar schemes in other cities often fail because of negative polling. It’s ironic I guess that Ken Livingstone (as London Mayor) took the brunt of the pain while his successor Boris Johnson picked up most of the acclaim. The public bicycle hire system in London is universally known now as Boris Bikes, although the initial concept was announced by his predecessor Ken Livingstone, Livingstone said that the programme would herald a "cycling and walking transformation in London”, which by all accounts it has.

They trialled introducing ''cheap bicycle hire'' in Melbourne CBD and it failed ...and the bicycles were mostly unused....i wonder why...surely all these protesters should be the first ones to hop on the bicycles:
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/goodbye-blue-bikes-melbourne-s-bike-share-scheme-canned-20190830-p52m9e.html

ER
02-11-2019, 04:37 PM
Australian Mining is a good publication. Subscribe to it
instead of relying on silly greenie janky psychedelic propaganda.
I read it along with the Guardian, which despite being leftard at least it reports the news in an acceptably objective manner.

Federal Resources Minister Matt Canavan:
“My vision for the resources industry and our nation is… the green light. A green light for new mining basins, a green light for dams and a green light
for the continued economic industrialisation and development of the world.”
https://www.australianmining.com.au/news/australias-resources-key-to-combat-poverty/





They trialled introducing ''cheap bicycle hire'' in Melbourne CBD and it failed ...and the bicycles were mostly unused....i wonder why...surely all these protesters should be the first ones to hop on the bicycles:
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/goodbye-blue-bikes-melbourne-s-bike-share-scheme-canned-20190830-p52m9e.html

haha good one, in fact I should protest too because I used to ride the damn things profusely when in the city! then someone told me public transport is free around CBD so I said, "bugger it, no parking seeking
no helmet, no worries they would be stolen" and used trams instead.

Desmond
02-11-2019, 05:07 PM
Kevin's question deserves a better answer. Morrison is a Pentecostal and the vast majority of Pentecostals(me included) believe that we are in the end times. The time remaining before Jesus returns is unknown but unlikely I believe to exceed 20o years. Biblcally, the "end times" began in the years depicted in the Book of Acts after Christ's resurrection, i.e. we have already been in the end times for nearly 2000 years.

You really don't want to have a person who believes that the end of the world is imminent and a good thing anywhere near methods to bring it about.

MichaelBaron
02-11-2019, 06:11 PM
You really don't want to have a person who believes that the end of the world is imminent and a good thing anywhere near methods to bring it about.

A rare instance when i do agree with RR...

Ian Murray
02-11-2019, 07:51 PM
Federal Resources Minister Matt Canavan:...

Matt Canavan! :) Federal Minister for Not Taking Climate Science Seriously :) Always good for a quotable quote:

“Instead of trying to save the planet in 2050 the QLD labor should just concentrate on saving jobs today!”

"Don't take my coal job and I won't take your soy latte"

“This report [Queensland Labor government report on the health impacts of climate change] reads like it was written during poetry slam night at the happy herb cafe,”

Matt Canavan said he wanted children in school learning about how to build mines, do geology and how to drill for oil and gas, "which is one of the most remarkable science exploits in the world".

"Greenies only like to quote the science when it suits them. Over 100 scientists from the CSIRO have spent 2.5 years working on proposed dams for the north. Getup! dismiss their work in hours. The party of ignorance!"

MichaelBaron
03-11-2019, 12:59 AM
Matt Canavan! :) Federal Minister for Not Taking Climate Science Seriously :) Always good for a quotable quote:

“Instead of trying to save the planet in 2050 the QLD labor should just concentrate on saving jobs today!”

"Don't take my coal job and I won't take your soy latte"

“This report [Queensland Labor government report on the health impacts of climate change] reads like it was written during poetry slam night at the happy herb cafe,”

Matt Canavan said he wanted children in school learning about how to build mines, do geology and how to drill for oil and gas, "which is one of the most remarkable science exploits in the world".

"Greenies only like to quote the science when it suits them. Over 100 scientists from the CSIRO have spent 2.5 years working on proposed dams for the north. Getup! dismiss their work in hours. The party of ignorance!"

Well how to drill for oil and gas can be useful :). Get's kids a chance to learn about future careers.
P.S. Saving the planet is often easier to discuss rather than saving jobs :)

antichrist
03-11-2019, 06:33 AM
Well how to drill for oil and gas can be useful :). Get's kids a chance to learn about future careers.
P.S. Saving the planet is often easier to discuss rather than saving jobs :)

Man survived hundreds of thousands of years without oil and gas but will be lucky to survive 200 years (1900-2100) using those products. Careers in those industries are totally useless in the long term and mortal to decent survival and a corruption of morality. Strictly speaking providing careers in those industries is on par with creating nuke weapons- both intrinsically evil.

Ian Murray
03-11-2019, 07:16 AM
Man survived hundreds of thousands of years without oil and gas but will be lucky to survive 200 years (1900-2100) using those products. Careers in those industries are totally useless in the long term and mortal to decent survival and a corruption of morality. Strictly speaking providing careers in those industries is on par with creating nuke weapons- both intrinsically evil.

Spot on

Ian Murray
03-11-2019, 08:13 AM
Case of unintended consequences. The civil unrest in Chile has forced its government to cancel the upcoming conference under the Paris climate accord (Conference of the Parties 25) which was scheduled to be held in Santiago, and Spain has stepped in with Madrid as the replacement host city.

Greta Thunberg had planned to attend the Santiago conference, travelling from Los Angeles, but now she is caught on the wrong side of the Atlantic. She asked for help on Twitter, and has an offer from the Spanish government. All she needs now is a ride back to Europe, but one without any fossil fuel propulsion.

Spain to help Greta Thunberg get to COP25 in Madrid (https://www.dw.com/en/spain-to-help-greta-thunberg-get-to-cop25-in-madrid/a-51091374)

Ian Murray
03-11-2019, 08:20 AM
Bad news, ScoMo. Big Business is still getting out of coal, despite your staunch support for the globe's dirtiest fuel

OCBC is now coal-free: Singapore bank drops out of final coal project (https://www.eco-business.com/news/ocbc-is-now-coal-free-singapore-bank-drops-out-of-final-coal-project/)

Oversea-Chinese Banking Corporation (OCBC), Southeast Asia’s second largest bank, has dropped out of the last coal financing project that it is involved in...

The number of newly completed coal plants fell by 20 per cent last year, with more than 100 finance institutions worldwide quitting the fossil fuel, the burning of which is the single biggest contributer to man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

antichrist
03-11-2019, 09:29 AM
Bad news, ScoMo. Big Business is still getting out of coal, despite your staunch support for the globe's dirtiest fuel

OCBC is now coal-free: Singapore bank drops out of final coal project (https://www.eco-business.com/news/ocbc-is-now-coal-free-singapore-bank-drops-out-of-final-coal-project/)

Oversea-Chinese Banking Corporation (OCBC), Southeast Asia’s second largest bank, has dropped out of the last coal financing project that it is involved in...

The number of newly completed coal plants fell by 20 per cent last year, with more than 100 finance institutions worldwide quitting the fossil fuel, the burning of which is the single biggest contributer to man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

well you can't expect everyone to be as shortsighted and dollar-perverted as Scomo and our few resident blinkards.

Desmond
03-11-2019, 11:22 AM
Matt Canavan! :) Federal Minister for Not Taking Climate Science Seriously :) Always good for a quotable quote:

“Instead of trying to save the planet in 2050 the QLD labor should just concentrate on saving jobs today!”

"Don't take my coal job and I won't take your soy latte"

“This report [Queensland Labor government report on the health impacts of climate change] reads like it was written during poetry slam night at the happy herb cafe,”

Matt Canavan said he wanted children in school learning about how to build mines, do geology and how to drill for oil and gas, "which is one of the most remarkable science exploits in the world".

"Greenies only like to quote the science when it suits them. Over 100 scientists from the CSIRO have spent 2.5 years working on proposed dams for the north. Getup! dismiss their work in hours. The party of ignorance!"

Canavan has no credibility. He put such howlers as "a doubling of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere—what we are on track for—would lead to a one-degree-Celsius increase in temperature." on the public record (http://www.mattcanavan.com.au/climate_change_science_is_uncertain).

Kevin Bonham
03-11-2019, 11:58 AM
Man survived hundreds of thousands of years without oil and gas but will be lucky to survive 200 years (1900-2100) using those products.

I don't believe this. Severe climate change will cause humans in at least some parts of the world severe harm and might even put a sock in population growth (other things predicted to do so have not) but I don't believe it will cause human extinction within 81 years or come even remotely close to doing so. What is the supposed scientific mechanism for human extinction in that timeframe?

Capablanca-Fan
03-11-2019, 12:16 PM
Man survived hundreds of thousands of years without oil and gas but will be lucky to survive 200 years (1900-2100) using those products. Careers in those industries are totally useless in the long term and mortal to decent survival and a corruption of morality. Strictly speaking providing careers in those industries is on par with creating nuke weapons- both intrinsically evil.

I trust that you walk or bike everywhere, use no plastics or most pharmaceuticals, would refuse an ambulance ride? What do you think life would have been like if our best means of transportation were still a buggy drawn by manure-producing horses and most places could not have electrified?

Ian Murray
03-11-2019, 01:54 PM
I don't believe this. Severe climate change will cause humans in at least some parts of the world severe harm and might even put a sock in population growth (other things predicted to do so have not) but I don't believe it will cause human extinction within 81 years or come even remotely close to doing so. What is the supposed scientific mechanism for human extinction in that timeframe?

There is no risk of human extinction, but low-lying and equatorial lands are likely to become uninhabitable, forcing mass migrations, famine and conflict. Millions could die.

Kevin Bonham
03-11-2019, 02:04 PM
There is no risk of human extinction, but low-lying and equatorial lands are likely to become uninhabitable, forcing mass migrations, famine and conflict. Millions could die.

A rather startling link on sea-level rise that's been doing the rounds: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/sea-level-rise-climate-central-study-906178/amp/

Idea is that current land elevation data are wrong and therefore the same amount of sea-level rise will cause more inundation.

antichrist
03-11-2019, 03:19 PM
I don't believe this. Severe climate change will cause humans in at least some parts of the world severe harm and might even put a sock in population growth (other things predicted to do so have not) but I don't believe it will cause human extinction within 81 years or come even remotely close to doing so. What is the supposed scientific mechanism for human extinction in that timeframe?

Of course man will survive in some regions and in some manner but life would be greatly different than what currently is. If you say the population could be culled, I think predictions are that there could even be a multiplier of CC effects but even without such life would be extremely difficult for billions of people. I expect there will be billions of refugees causing international turmoil, revolutions, extreme nationalism and a complete breakdown of civil society in many areas. The human spirit needs and yearns for hope but they will realise that for maybe thousands of years if not forever that there is only gloom. We can already see massive changes in the animal kingdom of immigration and receding of species, of acquiring different habits and habitats. It is now decades ago that John Howard refused the request of the Pacific islands to migrate here due to rising sea levels. In the Philippines due to excessing extraction of bore water land levels are dropping and if near the ocean with rising waters are already making places inhabitable. This is a country that relies on 1/4 million hectares of fishponds near the ocean and fish is their main nutrition. Those new super typhoons are devastating fishponds.

So in conclusion of course man will survive but that is all that can be said - the rest is all bad news.

I know you don't need me to show highlight effects of super typhoons but here is the Philippines...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VljZYbUDYuk&list=RDowRLJPLF-dg&index=2

MichaelBaron
03-11-2019, 04:58 PM
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/price-to-pay-peter-dutton-wants-activists-to-cover-the-cost-of-police-response-to-protests
Great idea. I wonder if individuals whose daily activities get disrupted should also be able to take protesters to court.

Patrick Byrom
03-11-2019, 05:56 PM
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/price-to-pay-peter-dutton-wants-activists-to-cover-the-cost-of-police-response-to-protests
Great idea. I wonder if individuals whose daily activities get disrupted should also be able to take protesters to court.How much should they have charged Rosa Parks for delaying her bus?

In order to sue the protesters, you would need to prove financial damage, not just disruption. Neither you nor ER have suffered any loss of income, so your cases would be laughed out of court.

antichrist
03-11-2019, 08:40 PM
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/price-to-pay-peter-dutton-wants-activists-to-cover-the-cost-of-police-response-to-protests
Great idea. I wonder if individuals whose daily activities get disrupted should also be able to take protesters to court.

Can individuals sue the oil companies for selling polluting products that make the breather sick? (non consuming breather take that as_

Ian Murray
03-11-2019, 09:34 PM
Can individuals sue the oil companies for selling polluting products that make the breather sick? (non consuming breather take that as_

They could try but would be overwhelmed by the defence legal team.

ER
03-11-2019, 11:13 PM
Of course man will survive in some regions and in some manner but life would be greatly different than what currently is. If you say the population could be culled, I think predictions are that there could even be a multiplier of CC effects but even without such life would be extremely difficult for billions of people. I expect there will be billions of refugees causing international turmoil, revolutions, extreme nationalism and a complete breakdown of civil society in many areas. The human spirit needs and yearns for hope but they will realise that for maybe thousands of years if not forever that there is only gloom. We can already see massive changes in the animal kingdom of immigration and receding of species, of acquiring different habits and habitats. It is now decades ago that John Howard refused the request of the Pacific islands to migrate here due to rising sea levels. In the Philippines due to excessing extraction of bore water land levels are dropping and if near the ocean with rising waters are already making places inhabitable. This is a country that relies on 1/4 million hectares of fishponds near the ocean and fish is their main nutrition. Those new super typhoons are devastating fishponds.
So in conclusion of course man will survive but that is all that can be said - the rest is all bad news.


:D Deliriously apocalyptic!!! was leaving out Armageddon a conscious decision? By the way are you ok?

MichaelBaron
03-11-2019, 11:27 PM
Can individuals sue the oil companies for selling polluting products that make the breather sick? (non consuming breather take that as_

they can and they have been...and there have been all kind of legal actions.
but in the meantime...i want to sue them!

MichaelBaron
03-11-2019, 11:29 PM
How much should they have charged Rosa Parks for delaying her bus?

In order to sue the protesters, you would need to prove financial damage, not just disruption. Neither you nor ER have suffered any loss of income, so your cases would be laughed out of court.

There are plenty of people who suffered loss of income. Not to mention that customers had difficulties to get to restaraunts (loss of business). Police force had to be deployed. Cost of Vets for the horses since the were instances of protesters even attacking the horses.

What if am not able to get to class on time due to train delays?

MichaelBaron
04-11-2019, 12:09 AM
https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/blocking-people-from-a-conference-won-t-win-hearts-and-minds-20191031-p5365l.html?fbclid=IwAR1FtHf49ndS_Xd7Uej_0pmSWG0oE _2LaBFzmgkEdURjLCaKjuOM2toVV8o

''I recognise the concerns raised by the protesters. I strongly believe that climate change is a reality and that we need to act now to address this threat to the world’s future. We need governments around the world to put policies in place, and several sectors – resource, agriculture, logistics, transport – to work towards strategic approaches to reduce our impact on the environment.

But the art of influencing people to change their behaviour or approach to an issue is not, and never will be, through being violent to them, calling them "climate killers" or yelling at them."

Blunderbuss
04-11-2019, 08:36 AM
But the art of influencing people to change their behaviour or approach to an issue is not, and never will be, through being violent to them, calling them "climate killers" or yelling at them."

I agree with this. And it’s also a core principle of Extinction Rebellion (not to behave like that). The blockade in Melbourne last week wasn’t actually an XR action – although it was supported by them. To understand that you need look-up “People’s Front of Judea” in Monty Python’s Life of Brian.

Meanwhile in the UK a new short has been produced to mark 1 year of XR, imagine an Australian version with local celebrities?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smm_dWDSWMU

Capablanca-Fan
04-11-2019, 09:01 AM
How much should they have charged Rosa Parks for delaying her bus?
Silly comparison. She wasn't stopping the bus from moving; she just wouldn't give up her seat, and nor should she have.


In order to sue the protesters, you would need to prove financial damage, not just disruption. Neither you nor ER have suffered any loss of income, so your cases would be laughed out of court.
But the protesters should still be prosecuted, because they had no assurance that there would be no financial damage to commuters, or life endangerment because an ambulance or fire engine could not get through.

antichrist
04-11-2019, 10:42 AM
Silly comparison. She wasn't stopping the bus from moving; she just wouldn't give up her seat, and nor should she have.


But the protesters should still be prosecuted, because they had no assurance that there would be no financial damage to commuters, or life endangerment because an ambulance or fire engine could not get through.

Roberta Flack when still a young teenager and was performing refused to perform until her mother was brought back to the front of the hall from the back reserved for the Afros.

Capablanca-Fan
04-11-2019, 10:56 AM
@realDonaldTrump
The Governor of California, @GavinNewsom, has done a terrible job of forest management. I told him from the first day we met that he must “clean” his forest floors regardless of what his bosses, the environmentalists, DEMAND of him. Must also do burns and cut fire stoppers.....

..Every year, as the fire’s rage & California burns, it is the same thing—and then he comes to the Federal Government for $$$ help. No more. Get your act together Governor. You don’t see close to the level of burn in other states...But our teams are working well together in.....

....putting these massive, and many, fires out. Great firefighters! Also, open up the ridiculously closed water lanes coming down from the North. Don’t pour it out into the Pacific Ocean. Should be done immediately. California desperately needs water, and you can have it now!

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 11:04 AM
There are plenty of people who suffered loss of income. Not to mention that customers had difficulties to get to restaraunts (loss of business). Police force had to be deployed. Cost of Vets for the horses since the were instances of protesters even attacking the horses.Which businesses specifically suffered loss of income, and how much (don't forget that it costs a lot of money to sue people)? Police are deployed all the time in many different areas, and paid by the taxpayer to do so. The cost of their deployment is not recovered from the people who trigger their response, except via fines on people actually convicted of crimes.


What if am not able to get to class on time due to train delays?Would that cause you to lose income?

Capablanca-Fan
04-11-2019, 11:12 AM
Roberta Flack when still a young teenager and was performing refused to perform until her mother was brought back to the front of the hall from the back reserved for the Afros.

There was a lot of that nonsense when Democrats ran the south with their evil Jim Crow laws. E.g. Hattie McDaniel won Best Supporting Actress for her role as the slave "Mammy" in Gone with the Wind (1939), becoming the first African American to win an Academy Award. But she was banned from the premier of the movie in Atlanta because of her skin shade. Her co-star, and friend, leading actor and conservative Clark Gable, wanted to boycott in protest, but McDaniel persuaded him to attend anyway.

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 11:18 AM
Silly comparison. She wasn't stopping the bus from moving; she just wouldn't give up her seat, and nor should she have.That's an hilarious argument - you've obviously never travelled on a bus!! Passengers are required to move if requested by the driver, so by refusing to do so she was disrupting the bus service. I completely agree that her decision was morally justified, but it was also illegal. According to Michael, she should have been charged for the cost of her arrest.


But the protesters should still be prosecuted, because they had no assurance that there would be no financial damage to commuters, or life endangerment because an ambulance or fire engine could not get through.Your argument also applies to Parks, who was prosecuted.

ER
04-11-2019, 11:24 AM
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/price-to-pay-peter-dutton-wants-activists-to-cover-the-cost-of-police-response-to-protests
Great idea. I wonder if individuals whose daily activities get disrupted should also be able to take protesters to court.

when that moron Milo Yannopoulos came over a couple of years ago and his neo-nazi scum supporters were mercilessly bashed up by both the unwashed anti-fa (at last they did something useful)
and the cops, the organizers of the "tour" had to cough up 50 grant for police expenses, didn't I laugh!! well that was a good start! the minister knows what he is talking about! Just wait and see!

As for your suggestion you should always think who you 're you are planning to engage in a legal battle with. It's very much like the well known story with the pig!
having a fight with it you 'll both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it. Similarly suing an xstinkerR bludger. Theirs is a win-win position for them since if you lose you pay
and if you win you 'll receive nothing! So, don't bother, sooner rather than later they will be dealt with nicely and effectively!

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 11:25 AM
@realDonaldTrump ... Maybe Trump should listen to an actual scientist (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/13/donald-trump-wildfires-science-forest-management):

Earlier this year, Donald Trump tweeted that more “forest clearing” was needed to stop destructive forest fires. In fact, clearcutting is not going to solve the wildfire problem in forests either. Cutting trees won’t stop wildfires from occurring where there are no trees. We cannot cut our way out of this problem.

MichaelBaron
04-11-2019, 11:31 AM
Which businesses specifically suffered loss of income, and how much (don't forget that it costs a lot of money to sue people)? Police are deployed all the time in many different areas, and paid by the taxpayer to do so. The cost of their deployment is not recovered from the people who trigger their response, except via fines on people actually convicted of crimes.

Would that cause you to lose income?

If access to particular area is restricted businesses lose income. Likewise, not everybody would choose to go shopping if it involves waiting for hours for tram to become available or to walk more than they would want to.
Re loss of income - it is simple - if people are not able to get to work on time - it is loss of income.

Re me coming to class late: if class is cancelled - it is loss of income. If it is postponed. It is loss of my time. It is also loss of students' time.

ER
04-11-2019, 11:37 AM
If access to particular area is restricted businesses lose income. Likewise, not everybody would choose to go shopping if it involves waiting for hours for tram to become available or to walk more than they would want to.
Re loss of income - it is simple - if people are not able to get to work on time - it is loss of income.

Re me coming to class late: if class is cancelled - it is loss of income. If it is postponed. It is loss of my time. It is also loss of students' time.

BTW Michael, I wish you all the best with the new Internship project. Sounds like a great initiative!!!

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 11:53 AM
If access to particular area is restricted businesses lose income. Likewise, not everybody would choose to go shopping if it involves waiting for hours for tram to become available or to walk more than they would want to. Re loss of income - it is simple - if people are not able to get to work on time - it is loss of income.You didn't answer my question - exactly how much income is being lost?


Re me coming to class late: if class is cancelled - it is loss of income. If it is postponed. It is loss of my time. It is also loss of students' time.So you don't necessarily lose income. And even if you did, the lost $200 (or so) wouldn't justify suing anyone.

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 12:15 PM
There's another problem with suing protesters (or the government recovering money from them) - how would you find out their names?

Of course, Rosa Parks was arrested and lost her job, but that didn't stop her from protesting. And it won't deter people from protesting in favour of stronger government action to prevent global heating either.

MichaelBaron
04-11-2019, 12:47 PM
You didn't answer my question - exactly how much income is being lost?

So you don't necessarily lose income. And even if you did, the lost $200 (or so) wouldn't justify suing anyone.

For now luckily i have not lost income directly but others did. Re justifying....I would love to see that 200 coming out of their paypackets/centerlink packages.
Also, if there is an organisation behind illegal activities - the organisation should be pronounced as illegal and breaking the law by default.

MichaelBaron
04-11-2019, 12:50 PM
BTW Michael, I wish you all the best with the new Internship project. Sounds like a great initiative!!!

Thank you...not relevant to this thread...but its great to see graduates places into jobs. We managed to assist 4 people into professional job within 2 weeks...and they just started Internships. Shows how well they are doing in their internships that companies offer them jobs...
Obviously while some others have been blocking streets and gluing themselves to concrete (may be on hot day..should leave them there and let them protest...till the glue gets very strong) - others are building their careers and doing some real work just like these graduates

MichaelBaron
04-11-2019, 12:53 PM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8934720/eco-warriors-glue-london-stock-exchange-climb-canary-wharf-train/

the Brits are not to be outdone...someone gluing her BREASTS to concrete..what a protest....this is why protesters are better off being in a travelling circus.

Capablanca-Fan
04-11-2019, 01:01 PM
Maybe Trump should listen to an actual scientist (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/13/donald-trump-wildfires-science-forest-management):

Earlier this year, Donald Trump tweeted that more “forest clearing” was needed to stop destructive forest fires. In fact, clearcutting is not going to solve the wildfire problem in forests either. Cutting trees won’t stop wildfires from occurring where there are no trees. We cannot cut our way out of this problem.

Not when scientists at leftist universities become ideologues. This one does explain the good remedy of prescribed fires, but this means that he ignores that Trump advocated controlled burns as well. And cutting trees will alleviate forest fires anyway.

antichrist
04-11-2019, 01:04 PM
when that moron Milo Yannopoulos came over a couple of years ago and his neo-nazi scum supporters were mercilessly bashed up by both the unwashed anti-fa (at last they did something useful)
and the cops, the organizers of the "tour" had to cough up 50 grant for police expenses, didn't I laugh!! well that was a good start! the minister knows what he is talking about! Just wait and see!

As for your suggestion you should always think who you 're you are planning to engage in a legal battle with. It's very much like the well known story with the pig!
having a fight with it you 'll both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it. Similarly suing an xstinkerR bludger. Theirs is a win-win position for them since if you lose you pay
and if you win you 'll receive nothing! So, don't bother, sooner rather than later they will be dealt with nicely and effectively!

neo-nazi scum supporter Ross May the skull was bashed up at the Sydney Domain one Sunday arvo after putting poop on a Pacific Islander football player - the Tongan was probably over here due to climate change drowning home.

Capablanca-Fan
04-11-2019, 01:05 PM
That's an hilarious argument - you've obviously never travelled on a bus!!
Never on a segregated bus anyway, now that Republicans run the South rather than Democrats. I recently visited the Rosa Parks memorial actually.


Passengers are required to move if requested by the driver, so by refusing to do so she was disrupting the bus service.
No, it was the unreasonable rules that disrupted the service. She did nothing to disrupt, unlike these ecothugs physically blocking traffic movement.


I completely agree that her decision was morally justified, but it was also illegal.
Legal ≠ moral as you note yourself.


According to Michael, she should have been charged for the cost of her arrest.
Silliness. Might have been different if she had physically blocked the bus.

MichaelBaron
04-11-2019, 01:29 PM
Never on a segregated bus anyway, now that Republicans run the South rather than Democrats. I recently visited the Rosa Parks memorial actually.


No, it was the unreasonable rules that disrupted the service. She did nothing to disrupt, unlike these ecothugs physically blocking traffic movement.


Legal ≠ moral as you note yourself.


Silliness. Might have been different if she had physically blocked the bus.

Re Morality....another note on the protesters ..they somehow assume they have ''moral superiority'' over others :).

Blunderbuss
04-11-2019, 01:59 PM
...Might have been different if she had physically blocked the bus.

Rosa Parks’ protest was just one action of many that the Civil Rights movement carried out, others included taking to the streets. Other examples Satyagraha - Gandhi, Suffragettes all would have caused far more disruption.

But you are right of course – lock ‘em all up! This is from the Wiki page so it must be true –


Extinction Rebellion uses mass arrest as a tactic to try to achieve its goals. Extinction Rebellion's founders researched the histories of "the suffragettes, the Indian salt marchers, the civil rights movement and the Polish and East German democracy movements", who all used the tactic, and are applying their lessons to the climate crisis. Co-founder Roger Hallam has said "letters, emailing, marches don’t work. You need about 400 people to go to prison. About two to three thousand people to be arrested."

Blunderbuss
04-11-2019, 02:26 PM
I don't believe this. Severe climate change will cause humans in at least some parts of the world severe harm and might even put a sock in population growth (other things predicted to do so have not) but I don't believe it will cause human extinction within 81 years or come even remotely close to doing so. What is the supposed scientific mechanism for human extinction in that timeframe?

I don’t believe humans will become extinct either, at least not in the next eighty years. The ‘Extinction’ bit of XR as I understand it references the Holocene extinction or sixth mass extinction which in geological timeframes started at the end of the last ice-age. Again quoting Wikipedia – ‘The Holocene extinction continues into the 21st century, with meat consumption, overfishing, ocean acidification and the decline in amphibian populations being a few broader examples of an almost universal, cosmopolitan decline in biodiversity. Human overpopulation (and continued population growth) along with profligate consumption are considered to be the primary drivers of this rapid decline.’

antichrist
04-11-2019, 02:39 PM
I don’t believe humans will become extinct either, at least not in the next eighty years. The ‘Extinction’ bit of XR as I understand it references the Holocene extinction or sixth mass extinction which in geological timeframes started at the end of the last ice-age. Again quoting Wikipedia – ‘The Holocene extinction continues into the 21st century, with meat consumption, overfishing, ocean acidification and the decline in amphibian populations being a few broader examples of an almost universal, cosmopolitan decline in biodiversity. Human overpopulation (and continued population growth) along with profligate consumption are considered to be the primary drivers of this rapid decline.’

It was all covered in the Kinks song Apeman 50 years ago

https://www.bing.com/search?q=kinks+apeman&form=EDNTHT&mkt=en-au&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&plvar=0&refig=ce1fd5ea7eee48f485d8b8b99ea8a578&PC=HCTS&sp=-1&pq=kinks+apeman&sc=0-12&qs=n&sk=&cvid=ce1fd5ea7eee48f485d8b8b99ea8a578
Lyrics

I think I'm sophisticated 'cause I'm living my life
like a good homosapiens
But all around me everybody's multiplying and
they're walking round like flies man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting
in the cages in the zoo
Cause compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees
I am an apeman.
I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'Cause I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
and the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more,
I don't want to die in a nuclear war.
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an apeman.
I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodo man, oh I'm an apeman
Cause compared to the sun that sits in the sky,
Compared to the clouds as they roll by,
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies I am an apeman.
In man's evolution he's created the city
and the motor traffic rumble.
But give me half a chance and I'd be taking off my clothes
and living in the jungle.
Cause the only time that I feel at ease
Is swinging up and down in the coconut trees.
Oh what a life of luxury to be like an apeman.
I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an apeman
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voodo man, oh I'm an apeman
I look out the window but I can't see the sky,
The air pollution is a-
mucking up my eyes,
I want to get out of this city alive and make like an apeman.
Oh come on and love me, be my apeman girl
And we'll be so happy in my apeman world.
I'm an apeman, I'm an ape, apeman, oh I'm an

Songwriters: RAY DAVIES
© Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC, Warner Chappell Music, Inc.
For non-commercial use only.
Data From: LyricFind

Blunderbuss
04-11-2019, 02:59 PM
I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'Cause I'm a strict vegetarian
RAY DAVIES


Yes, I was lucky to see Ray Davies play at Glastonbury in 2009 I would have said he didn't play Apeman but according to this (https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/ray-davies/2009/worthy-farm-pilton-england-5bd65b80.html) he did! Either way it was a great performance that night. As I remember it I had to chose between going to see Neil Young on the main stage or Ray Davies in a tent.

antichrist
04-11-2019, 03:21 PM
Yes, I was lucky to see Ray Davies play at Glastonbury in 2009 I would have said he didn't play Apeman but according to this (https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/ray-davies/2009/worthy-farm-pilton-england-5bd65b80.html) he did! Either way it was a great performance that night. As I remember it I had to chose between going to see Neil Young on the main stage or Ray Davies in a tent.

The song is correct we are an animal and part of nature but we behave like conquerors of nature so in effect we are destroying ourselves. The Australian Aborigines are really honed in on this.

Blunderbuss
04-11-2019, 04:33 PM
SMH article How bad is this drought and is it caused by climate change?
(https://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/how-bad-is-this-drought-and-is-it-caused-by-climate-change-20191024-p533xc.html)

ER
04-11-2019, 05:53 PM
neo-nazi scum supporter Ross May the skull was bashed up at the Sydney Domain one Sunday arvo after putting poop on a Pacific Islander football player

excellent piece of information and thanks. in your good days you justify your No.1 ranking regarding interesting and non-boring posts
with stories surrounding even flat earth type of topics such as the environment, climate warming etc. I have to admit
you, have somehow mellowed down after years of harsh pogroms, bans, and other merciless punishments but still ok.



the Tongan was probably over here due to climate change drowning home.

That's hogwash! volcano eruptions, earthquakes and tsunamis have caused for this

Even Johny Cash has given you a clue

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/ring-fire/

also sometimes even redneck polies like Craig Kelly can teach you and your eco-blockhead xstinkerR
mates one thing or two about this subject. btw Tuvalu is growing and not shrinking!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-19/fact-check-is-the-island-nation-tuvalu-growing/10627318

ER
04-11-2019, 06:04 PM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8934720/eco-warriors-glue-london-stock-exchange-climb-canary-wharf-train/

the Brits are not to be outdone...someone gluing her BREASTS to concrete..what a protest....this is why protesters are better off being in a travelling circus.

If I were her breastfed child I would have sued her asking compensation for baby abuse, mistreatment and malnutrition!

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 06:46 PM
For now luckily i have not lost income directly but others did. Re justifying....I would love to see that 200 coming out of their paypackets/centerlink packages.Should Rosa Parks have been made to compensate people for lost income?

Also, if there is an organisation behind illegal activities - the organisation should be pronounced as illegal and breaking the law by default.Non-violent protests aren't illegal in Australia, as Ian has explained to you many times. Anyway banning an organisation won't stop protests.

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 06:55 PM
... This one does explain the good remedy of prescribed fires, but this means that he ignores that Trump advocated controlled burns as well. And cutting trees will alleviate forest fires anyway.California is already doing controlled burns. And you obviously missed this part of the article: "But that is not what’s going on. For one thing, a large portion of the area burning is not forest." How is Trump's 'solution' going to stop fires outside of the forests?

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 07:02 PM
No, it was the unreasonable rules that disrupted the service. She did nothing to disrupt, unlike these ecothugs physically blocking traffic movement.She refused to follow the legal direction of the bus driver - that is always going to be disruptive. And, according to ER, if the laws are the product of a democratic government, then refusing to obey them makes you 'anti-democratic', so using that definition Parks was anti-democratic (no matter how unreasonable the rules).


Silliness. Might have been different if she had physically blocked the bus.Are you denying that Michael advocated charging people for the cost of their arrest?

Patrick Byrom
04-11-2019, 07:08 PM
neo-nazi scum supporter Ross May the skull was bashed up at the Sydney Domain one Sunday arvo after putting poop on a Pacific Islander football player - the Tongan was probably over here due to climate change drowning home.Don't listen to ER - Tuvalu may be growing but Tonga is sinking (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34738408)!

ER
04-11-2019, 07:49 PM
CCR's Green River, here performed by John Fogerty in England was much more popular and meaningful without the pseudo prophetic overtones.
Ray Davis' Apeman never made it anywhere, even Canned Heat's Up the Country - Woodstock's hymn was much more up to the point!

https://youtu.be/yIEDZtKdCes?t=24

antichrist
04-11-2019, 09:17 PM
Don't listen to ER - Tuvalu may be growing but Tonga is sinking (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34738408)!

There is a cathedral a few hours north of Manila that is about 5 feet under water, all in a shortish period.

ER
04-11-2019, 09:35 PM
There is a cathedral a few hours north of Manila that is about 5 feet under water, all in a shortish period.

Any evidence about the church, exactly where it is and what was the cause of the sinking?
The only close relevance to what you are talking about is this cemetery which sank after the volcano erupted in 1871.


https://youtu.be/lPCnUCvh-pg

In that particular area people wouldn't know what climate warming is even if it hit them on their privates!

Desmond
05-11-2019, 02:50 PM
Any evidence about the church, exactly where it is and what was the cause of the sinking?
The only close relevance to what you are talking about is this cemetery which sank after the volcano erupted in 1871.

In that particular area people wouldn't know what climate warming is even if it hit them on their privates!

Sadly the people of the Philippines do know all about climate change, it is hitting them all over the placein the form of typhoons.

Why the world is looking to the Philippines for climate justice (https://theconversation.com/why-the-world-is-looking-to-the-philippines-for-climate-justice-91792)

The Conversation, 2018

Corporations and governments around the world increasingly stand accused of causing or failing to prevent the damaging effects of climate change. Test cases are being filed in many countries to establish who is responsible and what action should be taken.

In 2016, after a series of particularly violent typhoons hit the Philippines, a group of Filipino citizens and civil organisations, including Greenpeace, accused 47 corporations of having significantly contributed to climate change, and called for them to be held accountable. Dubbed the “Carbon Majors”, these included the likes of Shell, BP and Chevron.

The group asked the Philippines Human Rights Commission to investigate the Carbon Majors’ responsibility for alleged breaches of Filipinos’ human rights to “life, health, food, water, sanitation, adequate housing and self determination” that are associated with climate change. ...

Ian Murray
05-11-2019, 06:55 PM
South Australia’s stunning renewable energy transition, and what comes next (https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australias-stunning-renewable-energy-transition-and-what-comes-next-79597/)

The eyes of the energy world are upon it, but the renewable energy transition in South Australia is probably one of the misunderstood, misreported and under-appreciated achievements of our time.

South Australia, for those who have not been paying attention, has dumped coal and now sources more than half its generation from wind and solar, becoming a net exporter rather than an importer of electricity along the way.

It now has plans to make that share of renewables “net 100 per cent” in a decade, and a multiple of that in the future. Given its location, at the end of a long and skinny grid with little connection to other markets, it is truly remarkable – and an inspiration to institutions, policy makers, consumers and the industry itself about what is possible.

What is also remarkable – at least in the context of Australia’s political environment – is that this is a bipartisan effort. The team that led the transition plan for Jay Weatherill’s Labor government has largely been kept intact by Steve Marshall’s Liberal government that took power early last year....

Blunderbuss
06-11-2019, 06:42 AM
Wow!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/05/climate-crisis-11000-scientists-warn-of-untold-suffering

And the ABC's version of same

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/climate-change-emergency-11000-scientists-sign-petition/11672776

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2019, 07:19 AM
She refused to follow the legal direction of the bus driver — that is always going to be disruptive.
Is it really so hard to differentiate active and passive disruption? Quit the silly moral equivalence.


And, according to ER, if the laws are the product of a democratic government, then refusing to obey them makes you 'anti-democratic', so using that definition Parks was anti-democratic (no matter how unreasonable the rules).
America is not a democracy but a republic. As it happens, the bus segregation rules were imposed by a Democratic government over the protests of the market, as Thomas Sowell points out in Rosa Parks and history (https://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2005/10/27/rosa-parks-and-history-n1371174) (2005).


Are you denying that Michael advocated charging people for the cost of their arrest?
And rightly so, because they were actively disrupting, and potentially causing loss both financially and healthwise. The fact that they didn't care about that is enough reason they should face a penalty.

Ian Murray
06-11-2019, 07:23 AM
Wow!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/05/climate-crisis-11000-scientists-warn-of-untold-suffering

And the ABC's version of same

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/climate-change-emergency-11000-scientists-sign-petition/11672776

I read the same article this morning. How many warnings do we need?

Blunderbuss
06-11-2019, 09:20 AM
I read the same article this morning. How many warnings do we need?

I know! I enjoyed the article you linked to in post #5407 I was struck by the slide showing South Australia is second to only Denmark when it comes to % of renewable energy used in total electricity generation. And as you say with the Liberal government keeping on the team setup by Labor to achieve this feat. The sad part I guess is the federal government trying to degrade (https://reneweconomy.com.au/is-regulators-parting-power-play-against-wind-farms-just-a-political-stunt-60602/) the achievement instead of using it as a template for the country as a whole.

Patrick Byrom
06-11-2019, 10:05 AM
Is it really so hard to differentiate active and passive disruption? Quit the silly moral equivalence.I'm glad we agree that she was being disruptive. And what about people in the bus whose journey to work might have been been significantly delayed by her protest? Do you think they would care whether she was being 'actively disruptive' or 'passively disruptive'?


And rightly so, because they were actively disrupting, and potentially causing loss both financially and healthwise. The fact that they didn't care about that is enough reason they should face a penalty.So should Rosa Parks have been charged for the cost of her arrest? She could also have potentially caused financial loss by delaying the departure of the bus.

MichaelBaron
06-11-2019, 11:14 AM
She refused to follow the legal direction of the bus driver - that is always going to be disruptive. And, according to ER, if the laws are the product of a democratic government, then refusing to obey them makes you 'anti-democratic', so using that definition Parks was anti-democratic (no matter how unreasonable the rules).

Are you denying that Michael advocated charging people for the cost of their arrest?

Why not ask Michael?
People should be charged for:

Disrupting business operation.
Disrupting lives and jobs of people.
Loss of Business (e.g. limiting access to coffee shops)
The list can go on.

Ian Murray
06-11-2019, 11:28 AM
I know! I enjoyed the article you linked to in post #5407 I was struck by the slide showing South Australia is second to only Denmark when it comes to % of renewable energy used in total electricity generation. And as you say with the Liberal government keeping on the team setup by Labor to achieve this feat. The sad part I guess is the federal government trying to degrade (https://reneweconomy.com.au/is-regulators-parting-power-play-against-wind-farms-just-a-political-stunt-60602/) the achievement instead of using it as a template for the country as a whole.

They still deride SA for having the most expensive electricity in the country because of Jay Weatherill's renewables policies. But Canstarblue (https://www.canstarblue.com.au/) now rates Tas as the most expensive on cheapest-available levellised annual costs - Tas $2165 SA $1642 ACT $1475 Qld $1303 NSW $1188 Vic $1173

Patrick Byrom
06-11-2019, 01:11 PM
Why not ask Michael?Because you don't answer my questions :P

Let me try again: Should Rosa Parks have been charged for disrupting the operation of a business?

Blunderbuss
06-11-2019, 01:16 PM
They still deride SA for having the most expensive electricity in the country because of Jay Weatherill's renewables policies. But Canstarblue (https://www.canstarblue.com.au/) now rates Tas as the most expensive on cheapest-available levellised annual costs - Tas $2165 SA $1642 ACT $1475 Qld $1303 NSW $1188 Vic $1173

That list would be very different if government hadn't scraped the Carbon price in 2014.

Capablanca-Fan
06-11-2019, 03:16 PM
Why not ask Michael?
People should be charged for:

Disrupting business operation.
Disrupting lives and jobs of people.
Loss of Business (e.g. limiting access to coffee shops)
The list can go on.

Should be obvious to sensible people, but not those like PB desperately seeking moral equivalence between thugs impeding other people's freedom of movement and a woman not moving from a seat she had every moral right to.

Ian Murray
06-11-2019, 04:14 PM
Should be obvious to sensible people, but not those like PB desperately seeking moral equivalence between thugs impeding other people's freedom of movement and a woman not moving from a seat she had every moral right to.

Peaceful protesters are not 'thugs'.

Thug | Definition of Thug by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › thug
Definition of thug. : a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster, tough.

Patrick Byrom
06-11-2019, 05:52 PM
Should be obvious to sensible people, but not those like PB desperately seeking moral equivalence between thugs impeding other people's freedom of movement and a woman not moving from a seat she had every moral right to.What system of morality guarantees you a seat on a bus :)

But you obviously haven't read my posts very carefully. If people who break the law are required to pay the costs of their arrests, or the costs of disrupting business operation, then Rosa Parks - who was arrested and charged! - would have been required to pay those costs as well. Michael's proposal makes no exception for those who feel they are doing what is morally right, or what you or I agree is morally correct. So I'm not arguing moral equivalence, but legal equivalence.

If you or Michael want to make a legal exception for Rosa Parks, then you need to explain how such an exception would work. Or you can agree with me that the whole idea is unworkable.

antichrist
06-11-2019, 06:35 PM
Should be obvious to sensible people, but not those like PB desperately seeking moral equivalence between thugs impeding other people's freedom of movement and a woman not moving from a seat she had every moral right to.

I would say that people who wish to have a moral right to clean water, air etc as well as creatures also have the same moral right. Are we going to be consistent?

Ian Murray
07-11-2019, 09:54 AM
Why Is Australia Trying to Shut Down Climate Activism?
(https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/world/australia/australia-climate-protests-coal.html)
New York Times
6.11.19

...A surge of climate activism is flooding Australia as the country falls behind on its promise to reduce emissions — effectively ignoring the Paris Agreement the Trump administration just abandoned. Prime Minister Scott Morrison has responded with a threat that’s alarmed scientists and free speech advocates, arguing that the government should outlaw “indulgent and selfish” efforts by environmental groups to rattle businesses with rallies and boycotts.

“The right to protest does not mean there is an unlimited license to disrupt people’s lives,” Mr. Morrison said, adding, “I am very concerned about this new form of progressivism.”

Australia’s “climate wars,” once confined to election campaigns, are now spilling into the streets with some of the biggest protests the country has ever seen. An increasingly outraged public is demanding action while the conservative national government refuses to budge, relying on the police to squelch dissent.

Australia, of course, is not alone. There have been large climate protests around the globe this year. But while many nations seem willing to tolerate the boycott campaigns and civil disobedience, Australia appears determined to suppress the activism, even as heat waves, drought and fires make the country’s vulnerabilities to climate change ever clearer.

Why has Australia become such an intense climate battleground? The forces defining the conflict are wrapped up in national identity, economics and a growing divide between government and public opinion. ...

Capablanca-Fan
07-11-2019, 03:54 PM
How Going Woke Makes Companies Like California Utilities And WeWork Go Broke (https://thefederalist.com/2019/11/01/how-going-woke-makes-companies-like-california-utilities-and-wework-quickly-go-broke/)
When you encounter company leaders more interested in spending resources on popular leftist causes than providing the best products to customers, run away as fast as you can — and take your money with you.
Helen Raleigh (herself a legal immigrant from China), Federalist, 1 Nov 2019

This doesn’t mean the management and the board of PG&E are blameless. Rather than focus on delivering value for shareholders, they aimed to become the most leftist corporation in California. According to Finley, “PG&E hasn’t kept detailed records on the age or condition of its transmission towers and wires,” but it keeps precise reports of the “diversity” of its employees, board, and contractors. For example, it boasts a board wherein “Five of its 14 directors are female, one is black, and two are Hispanic.”

For years, PG&E was a darling of the left. Both the LGBT activist group Human Rights Campaign and the institutional Shareholders Service Group gave the company high ratings for being an exemplary corporate citizen on issues such as “climate change” and “diversity and inclusion.”

While PG&E focused on leftist politics, it neglected the maintenance and replacement of its power grids and power lines. Authorities identified a broken jumper in its transmission line as the culprit for starting the 2018 Camp Fire, the deadliest in California’s history, which killed more than 80 people and destroyed 14,000 homes.

Of course, now PG&E is probably the most hated corporation in California after cutting off power several times in this year, with more blackouts expected. Its actions have sent millions of Californians back to the “dark ages.” Rather than taking responsibility for years of mismanagement, wrong-headed mandates, and initiatives, Democratic politicians in California blame corporate greed and want to turn PG&E from an investor-owned company into a nonprofit cooperative. It seems that millions of Californians literally won’t see the light at the end of the tunnel any time soon.

What should we learn from PG&E and WeWork? When you encounter leaders of a company who think profit and shareholder values are dirty words, are more interested in spending resources on popular liberal causes such as identity politics and trumped-up environmental concerns than providing the best products and services to customers, run away from them as fast as you can and take your money with you. The more woke they are, the more likely they will go broke.

MichaelBaron
07-11-2019, 04:20 PM
Peaceful protesters are not 'thugs'.

Thug | Definition of Thug by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › thug
Definition of thug. : a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster, tough.
You can call them anyway you like..the fact is - they cause illegal disruptions for which they will hopefully be charged. if/once charged what word shall we use to describe them. If they have a criminal record against their name, is using word ''criminals'' appropriate?

Blunderbuss
07-11-2019, 05:05 PM
You can call them anyway you like..the fact is - they cause illegal disruptions for which they will hopefully be charged. if/once charged what word shall we use to describe them. If they have a criminal record against their name, is using word ''criminals'' appropriate?

I suggest we call them 'Climate Hero'.

Ian Murray
07-11-2019, 05:07 PM
You can call them anyway you like..the fact is - they cause illegal disruptions for which they will hopefully be charged. if/once charged what word shall we use to describe them. If they have a criminal record against their name, is using word ''criminals'' appropriate?

Being fined for a traffic offence is not a crime - only offences under the Crimes Act are crimes, leading to a criminal record.

antichrist
07-11-2019, 05:08 PM
excellent piece of information and thanks. in your good days you justify your No.1 ranking regarding interesting and non-boring posts
with stories surrounding even flat earth type of topics such as the environment, climate warming etc. I have to admit
you, have somehow mellowed down after years of harsh pogroms, bans, and other merciless punishments but still ok.




That's hogwash! volcano eruptions, earthquakes and tsunamis have caused for this

Even Johny Cash has given you a clue

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/ring-fire/

also sometimes even redneck polies like Craig Kelly can teach you and your eco-blockhead xstinkerR
mates one thing or two about this subject. btw Tuvalu is growing and not shrinking!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-19/fact-check-is-the-island-nation-tuvalu-growing/10627318

I have no idea re Tonga I only added about climate change to keep on topic and crossed my fingers.
The Skull was also attacked when he was harassing an anti-nuke demo in Sydney about 1980, by a real burly guy who I was told was security at the Russian Embassy??? He kept kicking the Skull who didn't respond at all - maybe a coward the Skull because he was notorious for pushing over little old Chinese women in Belmore Park near Central Station in Sydney. Then I heard about ten years ago or more that he was bit badly by a bus, he had shocking eyesight with extremely heavy glasses.

antichrist
07-11-2019, 05:17 PM
I trust that you walk or bike everywhere, use no plastics or most pharmaceuticals, would refuse an ambulance ride? What do you think life would have been like if our best means of transportation were still a buggy drawn by manure-producing horses and most places could not have electrified?

I have lived in areas heavily populated by bikes and horses and used such and found it quite okay. I have had to wind up those manual gramophones and even wind movie reels out west in shed "movie theatres". Then you have a break when changing reels. I prefer that and knowing that the future is okay and not going to go rubbish within a few generations. God did not design our atmosphere to accept continual pollution. I used to even give a hand to break in horses - that was fun. My great grandparents and grandparents had horse drawn coaches that they used for hawking for about 70 years.

Don't believe that stuff about whispering to horses when breaking them in - when the cameras are not on they bash the poop out of them if necessary.

MichaelBaron
07-11-2019, 06:20 PM
I suggest we call them 'Climate Hero'.

I can think for new names for other kinds of crime as well:
''Raping Hero' ''Smuggling Hero'' ''Gang Murder Superhero''.

Ian Murray
07-11-2019, 07:28 PM
I can think for new names for other kinds of crime as well:
''Raping Hero' ''Smuggling Hero'' ''Gang Murder Superhero''.

You're not paying attention. Public protest is a constitutional right, not a crime.

For someone running some sort of business consultation service, you show very little understanding of laws, justice, taxation or social security.

Ian Murray
07-11-2019, 07:31 PM
Don't believe that stuff about whispering to horses when breaking them in - when the cameras are not on they bash the poop out of them if necessary.

The horse breakers I have known would never dream of harming a horse

Ian Murray
07-11-2019, 07:46 PM
...they cause illegal disruptions for which they will hopefully be charged.

The disruptions are not illegal. Seven XR protesters in Sydney were charged under the Road Transport Act with not complying with a police direction regarding a road closure, to which they have pleaded not guilty. The case remains to be heard.

antichrist
07-11-2019, 09:02 PM
The horse breakers I have known would never dream of harming a horse

Just reading they call it hard breaking and gentle or slow breaking that takes a long time. My neighbour was obviously a hard breaker, a very strong guy who could break the horse within a few hours as well as teaching it excellent French. Some articles stated that if paying for breaking the slow way is too expensive and some people can't afford so their horses may go unbroken.

Ian Murray
08-11-2019, 08:47 AM
Just reading they call it hard breaking and gentle or slow breaking that takes a long time. My neighbour was obviously a hard breaker, a very strong guy who could break the horse within a few hours as well as teaching it excellent French. Some articles stated that if paying for breaking the slow way is too expensive and some people can't afford so their horses may go unbroken.

Using pain and fear is no way to train any animal.

antichrist
08-11-2019, 10:15 AM
Using pain and fear is no way to train any animal.

They train dogs not to pull on a lead by strenuously using a choking collar. They shut dogs up by those high pitched electronic devices. Buffaloes in Asia are lead by a nostril ring if I remember correctly. Hard to re-education all these people. Fighting cocks have those razor sharp spurs.

Ian Murray
08-11-2019, 10:39 AM
They train dogs not to pull on a lead by strenuously using a choking collar. They shut dogs up by those high pitched electronic devices. Buffaloes in Asia are lead by a nostril ring if I remember correctly. Hard to re-education all these people. Fighting cocks have those razor sharp spurs.

https://www.ifaw.org/au/take-action

idledim
08-11-2019, 12:45 PM
You're not paying attention. Public protest is a constitutional right, not a crime.

For someone running some sort of business consultation service, you show very little understanding of laws, justice, taxation or social security.

As someone who claims that public protest is a constitutional right and accuses MB of having very little understanding of the law, can you explain how it was possible for the High Court to rule as it did in Chubb v. Edwards and Preston v. Avery?

Ian Murray
08-11-2019, 04:28 PM
As someone who claims that public protest is a constitutional right and accuses MB of having very little understanding of the law, can you explain how it was possible for the High Court to rule as it did in Chubb v. Edwards and Preston v. Avery?

It's not rocket science. The High Court has ruled that we have two implied democratic rights, the right to vote and the freedom of political communication. However governments may pass laws which infringe the freedom of expression right provided that the laws serve a reasonable purpose and are appropriate to that purpose.

The laws applied in the Clubb v Edwards and Preston v Avery cases were intended to protect visitors to abortion clinics from harassment by right-to-life protesters. The High Court found the laws reasonable and appropriate (no protesters within 150m of the door), and the appeals against them were dismissed.

idledim
08-11-2019, 07:48 PM
It's not rocket science. The High Court has ruled that we have two implied democratic rights, the right to vote and the freedom of political communication. However governments may pass laws which infringe the freedom of expression right provided that the laws serve a reasonable purpose and are appropriate to that purpose.

The laws applied in the Clubb v Edwards and Preston v Avery cases were intended to protect visitors to abortion clinics from harassment by right-to-life protesters. The High Court found the laws reasonable and appropriate (no protesters within 150m of the door), and the appeals against them were dismissed.

Correct! In other words, the right to freedom of assembly is not an absolute right guaranteed by the constitution. It is regulated and limited by law. Freedom of Assembly laws do not allow anyone to trample on the rights of others. This usually includes secondary boycotts and other disruptive activities that impede the commercial activities of others. Your earlier statement that it is a constitutional right to engage in disruptive activities is misleading. If freedom of assembly was a constitutional right, the High Court would have had to accept the Appeals in those cases involving 'pro-life' activists.

Incidentally, this also demonstrates the nonsense of your earlier claim that "some human rights carry more weight than others. The common law right to freedom of assembly and the freedom of political communication implied in the Australian constitution outweigh any right to unimpeded progress on the streets." That was not the view of the High Court in Clubb v. Edwards.

Ian Murray
08-11-2019, 08:18 PM
Correct! In other words, the right to freedom of assembly is not an absolute right guaranteed by the constitution. It is regulated and limited by law. Freedom of Assembly laws do not allow anyone to trample on the rights of others. This usually includes secondary boycotts and other disruptive activities that impede the commercial activities of others. Your earlier statement that it is a constitutional right to engage in disruptive activities is misleading. If freedom of assembly was a constitutional right, the High Court would have had to accept the Appeals in those cases involving 'pro-life' activists.

Incidentally, this also demonstrates the nonsense of your earlier claim that "some human rights carry more weight than others. The common law right to freedom of assembly and the freedom of political communication implied in the Australian constitution outweigh any right to unimpeded progress on the streets." That was not the view of the High Court in Clubb v. Edwards.

You're over-reading Clubb. Disruption by the protesters was not prohibited, merely moved back 150m along the street. The right to protest remains, but must be balanced with the protection of others in the community. The definition of protection is narrow, involving actual or threatened harm. The Extinction Rebellion protests, for example, were peaceful and harmless.

ER
08-11-2019, 10:43 PM
No offense to Mickey Mouse but nothing surprising here! Real news would have been to point out some non-fake-ones! :D

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/mickey-mouse-and-other-fake-scientists-revealed-as-signatories-to-massive-climate-petition/ar-AAJZO4B?ocid=spartanntp

MichaelBaron
09-11-2019, 12:28 AM
No offense to Mickey Mouse but nothing surprising here! Real news would have been to point out some non-fake-ones! :D

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/mickey-mouse-and-other-fake-scientists-revealed-as-signatories-to-massive-climate-petition/ar-AAJZO4B?ocid=spartanntp

I would expect Hermit the Frog to sign it even before him :).

Patrick Byrom
09-11-2019, 11:48 AM
No offense to Mickey Mouse but nothing surprising here! Real news would have been to point out some non-fake-ones! :D
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/mickey-mouse-and-other-fake-scientists-revealed-as-signatories-to-massive-climate-petition/ar-AAJZO4B?ocid=spartanntpThe article itself says that there were only a few fakes. But the scientists at the BOM and CSIRO predicting worse droughts and bushfires aren't fake.

Patrick Byrom
09-11-2019, 11:50 AM
I would expect Hermit the Frog to sign it even before him :).If he did, he must be a fake - you're thinking of Kermit the frog (from the Muppets) :)

Ian Murray
09-11-2019, 12:56 PM
IEEFA WEEKLY DISPATCH 8.11.19 (http://ieefa.org/category/subject/commentary/)

Headlines

IEEFA update: Data shows U.S. shift away from coal-fired generation is intensifying

IEEFA India: Thermal coal flat-lines in faltering economy, power from non-coal sources continues to grow

IEEFA update: Australia’s first offshore wind project a step in the right direction, despite the cost

IEEFA Australia: Rix’s Creek Coal Mine Extension approved despite wrongful representation of cost externalities and increase to global emissions

IEEFA update: Coal seam gas is high cost gas for Queenslanders

IEEFA update: The Adani juggernaut is expanding on all fronts, Australian coal needs not be one of them

IEEFA update: Australian consumers paying 71% more for gas on average than government inquiry says they should be paying

IEEFA report: Navajo company’s foray into Powder River Basin coal is off to a troubled start

Ian Murray
09-11-2019, 05:53 PM
The article itself says that there were only a few fakes. But the scientists at the BOM and CSIRO predicting worse droughts and bushfires aren't fake.

34 invalid names have now been removed, leaving 11224 scientist signatories from 153 countries

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/advance-article/doi/10.1093/biosci/biz088/5610806?searchresult=1

idledim
09-11-2019, 06:30 PM
34 invalid names have now been removed, leaving 11224 scientist signatories from 153 countries

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/advance-article/doi/10.1093/biosci/biz088/5610806?searchresult=1

How many of those are climate scientists? I've seen obstetricians, paleontologists, political scientists and librarians, students, etc. etc. Have their names been removed - or was it just names like (Professor) Ivor Biggun? Of course, everyone should be able to put their name to a petition, but why not just call it that?
More importantly, could you tell me about the peer review process for this paper? Was there a peer review process? I've heard a rumour that it wasn't peer-reviewed - but that can't be true. I mean ... if it wasn't even peer-reviewed, surely the media would have just dismissed it as the propaganda work of eco-activists, no?
As consulting geologist Marc Hendrickx, who highlighted the errant signatures, said: “legitimate researchers passionate about the scientific method do not do science by social media”.

MichaelBaron
09-11-2019, 11:35 PM
34 invalid names have now been removed, leaving 11224 scientist signatories from 153 countries

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/advance-article/doi/10.1093/biosci/biz088/5610806?searchresult=1

Some of the people who signed...if you google them...their research does not mention Climate...Does it mean that as a person who is a ''Data scientist'' I can dismiss/support climate change analysis? :)

Ian Murray
10-11-2019, 10:14 AM
How many of those are climate scientists? ...

The Alliance of World Scientists is an inclusive group and all scientists are welcome to join when becoming signatories to the scientists’ warning article. Because we understand the complexity of identity and backgrounds of scientists throughout the world, we embrace the diversity of differences these scientists bring for solving environmental challenges
https://scientistswarning.forestry.oregonstate.edu/


More importantly, could you tell me about the peer review process for this paper? Was there a peer review process? ...

It's not a research paper, it's a statement published in the Viewpoint section of Bioscience journal


Statement sets out ‘vital signs’ as indicators of magnitude of the climate emergency

The world’s people face “untold suffering due to the climate crisis” unless there are major transformations to global society, according to a stark warning from more than 11,000 scientists.

“We declare clearly and unequivocally that planet Earth is facing a climate emergency,” it states. “To secure a sustainable future, we must change how we live. [This] entails major transformations in the ways our global society functions and interacts with natural ecosystems.”

There is no time to lose, the scientists say: “The climate crisis has arrived and is accelerating faster than most scientists expected. It is more severe than anticipated, threatening natural ecosystems and the fate of humanity.”

The statement is published in the journal BioScience on the 40th anniversary of the first world climate conference, which was held in Geneva in 1979. The statement was a collaboration of dozens of scientists and endorsed by further 11,000 from 153 nations. The scientists say the urgent changes needed include ending population growth, leaving fossil fuels in the ground, halting forest destruction and slashing meat eating.

Prof William Ripple, of Oregon State University and the lead author of the statement, said he was driven to initiate it by the increase in extreme weather he was seeing. A key aim of the warning is to set out a full range of “vital sign” indicators of the causes and effects of climate breakdown, rather than only carbon emissions and surface temperature rise....
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/05/climate-crisis-11000-scientists-warn-of-untold-suffering

antichrist
10-11-2019, 10:32 AM
Ian, you are casting pearls to swine - the hip pocket gene is even more sensitive than the genetic gene

Ian Murray
10-11-2019, 10:41 AM
Blockade tactics
Inside the 2019 IMARC protests (https://www.themonthly.com.au/blog/hayley-singer/2019/08/2019/1573183366/blockade-tactics?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Sunday%20Reads%20-%2010%20November%202019&utm_content=Sunday%20Reads%20-%2010%20November%202019+CID_edbb13c1a0910d5d011ef1 1925476eea&utm_source=EDM&utm_term=Blockade%20tactics)
The Monthly
Nov 2019

...People running and screaming. A woman is in distress. She calls out, “Stop pepper spraying!” An officer replies, “Piss off, or I’ll ****ing pepper spray you too.”

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews has commended Victoria Police for “doing every one of us proud”....

Since the blockade, Prime Minister Scott Morrison has pledged to introduce new legislation to “crack down” on the ability of environmental groups to protest. At the same time, an open letter – signed by over 11,000 scientists from 153 nations – has called for swift transitions to the way global society functions. This, they say, is necessary to avoid “untold suffering” as a result of further global heating.

The message from scientists from around the world and the Australian government is – for dangerously contradictory reasons – crystal clear. Worse is yet to come.

MichaelBaron
10-11-2019, 10:55 AM
Blockade tactics
Inside the 2019 IMARC protests (https://www.themonthly.com.au/blog/hayley-singer/2019/08/2019/1573183366/blockade-tactics?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Sunday%20Reads%20-%2010%20November%202019&utm_content=Sunday%20Reads%20-%2010%20November%202019+CID_edbb13c1a0910d5d011ef1 1925476eea&utm_source=EDM&utm_term=Blockade%20tactics)
The Monthly
Nov 2019

...People running and screaming. A woman is in distress. She calls out, “Stop pepper spraying!” An officer replies, “Piss off, or I’ll ****ing pepper spray you too.”

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews has commended Victoria Police for “doing every one of us proud”....

Since the blockade, Prime Minister Scott Morrison has pledged to introduce new legislation to “crack down” on the ability of environmental groups to protest. At the same time, an open letter – signed by over 11,000 scientists from 153 nations – has called for swift transitions to the way global society functions. This, they say, is necessary to avoid “untold suffering” as a result of further global heating.

The message from scientists from around the world and the Australian government is – for dangerously contradictory reasons – crystal clear. Worse is yet to come.

A woman is in distress...so why did she come there to get distressed? Police does not go around using pepper spray on law obedient citizens.
P.S. I did not know before that pepper spray was used. Now that I know I would like to join Andrews on thanking the police once again. May be next time some will think twice before attempting to disrupt lives of others illegally

MichaelBaron
10-11-2019, 10:56 AM
The Alliance of World Scientists is an inclusive group and all scientists are welcome to join when becoming signatories to the scientists’ warning article. Because we understand the complexity of identity and backgrounds of scientists throughout the world, we embrace the diversity of differences these scientists bring for solving environmental challenges
https://scientistswarning.forestry.oregonstate.edu/

[/url][/INDENT]
Fantastic...do I qualify as a scientist then? :). Who decides who is a scientist and who is not and if i am a Scientist of any kind...can I start giving ''educated opinions'' on all earthly matters?

Patrick Byrom
10-11-2019, 12:40 PM
... P.S. I did not know before that pepper spray was used. Now that I know I would like to join Andrews on thanking the police once again. May be next time some will think twice before attempting to disrupt lives of others illegallySo you would have supported the pepper spraying of Rosa Parks because she was disrupting the lives of others illegally?

Patrick Byrom
10-11-2019, 01:00 PM
Fantastic...do I qualify as a scientist then? :). Who decides who is a scientist and who is not and if i am a Scientist of any kind...can I start giving ''educated opinions'' on all earthly matters?You already give 'uneducated opinions' on matters you know nothing about, so educated opinions would be a huge improvement!

But a person doesn't need to be a scientist to report established scientific results - anyone can do that. However, if you want to challenge the established science, then you should be an expert in that field. The signatories appear to be either employed as scientists or are PhD students (with a very small number of possible exceptions), so they definitely qualify as scientists.

MichaelBaron
10-11-2019, 01:06 PM
You already give 'uneducated opinions' on matters you know nothing about, so educated opinions would be a huge improvement!

But a person doesn't need to be a scientist to report established scientific results - anyone can do that. However, if you want to challenge the established science, then you should be an expert in that field. The signatories appear to be either employed as scientists or are PhD students (with a very small number of possible exceptions), so they definitely qualify as scientists.

So would u consider some of the signatories to be "self-appointed" experts?

MichaelBaron
10-11-2019, 01:09 PM
So you would have supported the pepper spraying of Rosa Parks because she was disrupting the lives of others illegally?
Any other historic examples? U could also mention Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto etc.
Would u regard current Australian laws as discriminatory then or are they standing up for "my rights" against my will

Patrick Byrom
10-11-2019, 01:13 PM
So would u consider some of the signatories to be "self-appointed" experts?They're not claiming to be experts, only scientists.

Patrick Byrom
10-11-2019, 01:14 PM
Any other historic examples? U could also mention Jewish uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto etc. Would u regard current Australian laws as discriminatory then or are they standing up for "my rights" against my willI've no idea what you mean. Maybe you can just answer the question?

MichaelBaron
10-11-2019, 05:29 PM
They're not claiming to be experts, only scientists.

Perfect. That means that their opinion is simply about as valuable as anyone else's just another individual with an opinion - not an ''educated opinion''

Patrick Byrom
10-11-2019, 06:05 PM
Perfect. That means that their opinion is simply about as valuable as anyone else's just another individual with an opinion - not an ''educated opinion''No, it definitely does not mean that. First of all, scientists are trained to evaluate scientific data, so a scientist's opinion on scientific evidence is far more valuable than that of a layperson. Secondly, even in areas where they would not claim to be experts, scientists often have far greater knowledge and understanding than the general public. So the opinion of a scientist on a scientific matter is far more valuable than that of the average person.

And your claim that scientists are 'uneducated' is obvious nonsense.

Ian Murray
11-11-2019, 12:24 PM
Thoughts and Prayers (https://www.examiner.com.au/story/6484046/climate-reality-needs-more-than-thoughts-and-prayers/)
The Examiner, Launceston
11.11.19

It has an eerily similar ring to it: "Thoughts and prayers".

Australians rightly mock this platitude when it's rolled out by politicians after a mass shooting in the US, but now our own Prime Minister saw fit to present this meaningless line for victims of the bushfires on the mainland.

And the similarities don't end there.

Like how the US does nothing to end their deadly problem, our government also appears determined to cover its ears to the stark reality now facing us: Australia is drier than ever, hotter than ever, and less prepared than ever.

This is no fault of our fire services. In fact, it appears to be in spite of our fire services. Former NSW fires chief Greg Mullins and 22 other former emergency chiefs were refused an urgent meeting with the PM multiple times this year, and NSW frontline firefighting has been slashed in the eternal quest for a surplus.

In Tasmania, the TFS is well aware of the risks. In Launceston this year, their State Conference was titled "Not the Norm": because the changing climate is putting humanity in a completely unpredictable position where every year is worse than the last. There is no "norm" anymore - as evidenced by the last fire season....

MichaelBaron
11-11-2019, 12:50 PM
No, it definitely does not mean that. First of all, scientists are trained to evaluate scientific data, so a scientist's opinion on scientific evidence is far more valuable than that of a layperson. Secondly, even in areas where they would not claim to be experts, scientists often have far greater knowledge and understanding than the general public. So the opinion of a scientist on a scientific matter is far more valuable than that of the average person.

And your claim that scientists are 'uneducated' is obvious nonsense.

Trained to evaluate does not mean they did evaluate. If i am trained to review some project it is by now evidence that I did review it!

Patrick Byrom
11-11-2019, 01:09 PM
Trained to evaluate does not mean they did evaluate. If i am trained to review some project it is by now evidence that I did review it!So you're not disputing my (obvious) point that scientists are better equipped to evaluate scientific data than laypeople (I'm glad we agree!). Now do you have any actual evidence that they didn't evaluate the data before signing? By publicly agreeing to the petition, they are putting their academic reputations on the line, so the obvious assumption is that they did evaluate the data before signing.

Blunderbuss
11-11-2019, 01:15 PM
Trained to evaluate does not mean they did evaluate. If i am trained to review some project it is by now evidence that I did review it!

It strikes me that you would continue to argue that we should ignore the people shouting fire, because such people lack expertise in smelling smoke. Even, while your house was burning down around you.

MichaelBaron
11-11-2019, 01:32 PM
It strikes me that you would continue to argue that we should ignore the people shouting fire, because such people lack expertise in smelling smoke. Even, while your house was burning down around you.

Being ''uneducated'' - when Melbourne was freezing yesterday - the last thing that came to my mind was global warming. Being someone who works with Data I do not understand how for many years, every single textbook referred to the Weather/climate data as the ''The Biggest Data'' - and now I am being told that it has all been analyzed :).

Last but not least, the very fact that we deal with the climate matters ahead of socio-economic ones is a clear indication that some people view the whole ''climate challenge'' as an escape from economic reality of the everyday life.

Re house-burning comparison....somehow not everyone can feel/see the smoke.

Ian Murray
11-11-2019, 01:47 PM
- and now I am being told that it has all been analyzed :).

The data contained in the Bioscience statement. Not all data known to science. Sheesh!


Last but not least, the very fact that we deal with the climate matters ahead of socio-economic ones is a clear indication that some people view the whole ''climate challenge'' as an escape from economic reality of the everyday life.

Or they view the climate emergency (as 64% of Australians do (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/08/australians-overwhelmingly-agree-climate-emergency-is-the-nations-number-one-threat)) as the greatest risk to Australia's national interests

Blunderbuss
11-11-2019, 01:55 PM
...Last but not least, the very fact that we deal with the climate matters ahead of socio-economic ones is a clear indication that some people view the whole ''climate challenge'' as an escape from economic reality of the everyday life.

Again completely wrong, climate change isn't an escape from economics far from it - banks-carry-more-climate-risk (https://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2019/09/13/banks-carry-more-climate-risk/)

idledim
11-11-2019, 02:28 PM
The data contained in the Bioscience statement. Not all data known to science. Sheesh!



Or they view the climate emergency (as 64% of Australians do (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/08/australians-overwhelmingly-agree-climate-emergency-is-the-nations-number-one-threat)) as the greatest risk to Australia's national interests

Of course, it wouldn't affect the validity of the proposition if 2% agreed with it (or if 100% agreed with it) - just as it doesn't much matter if a bunch of paleontologists, gynaecologists, librarians and other assorted miscreants sign a petition. Still, it is surprising that those 64% of Australians returned a coalition government on May 18 - with the voting % for the ALP at that election being significantly less than for the No campaign in the SSM plebiscite.

Blunderbuss
11-11-2019, 03:06 PM
... returned a coalition government on May 18 - with the voting % for the ALP at that election being significantly less than for the No campaign in the SSM plebiscite.

Katharine Murphy had some thoughts on the election when addressing Michael McCormack's 'raving lunatics' comments...

Dear Michael McCormack (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/11/dear-michael-mccormack-the-only-raving-lunatics-are-those-not-worrying-about-climate-change)

"There was an election in May, and the raving lunatics lost, so rather than just persisting there post-defeat, occupying 48.5% of the public space, losers should just shut up and let the non-ravers get on with putting the fires out. Because when you lose an election, all alternative policies, ideas and insights, whether informed by evidence or not, are cancelled – a new take on democracy for sure, but Michael is up for that kind of thing. Fresh thinking. Innovation."

idledim
11-11-2019, 03:41 PM
Katharine Murphy had some thoughts on the election when addressing Michael McCormack's 'raving lunatics' comments...

Dear Michael McCormack (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/11/dear-michael-mccormack-the-only-raving-lunatics-are-those-not-worrying-about-climate-change)

"There was an election in May, and the raving lunatics lost, so rather than just persisting there post-defeat, occupying 48.5% of the public space, losers should just shut up and let the non-ravers get on with putting the fires out. Because when you lose an election, all alternative policies, ideas and insights, whether informed by evidence or not, are cancelled – a new take on democracy for sure, but Michael is up for that kind of thing. Fresh thinking. Innovation."

I'm not sure why this post is issued as a response to my simple observation that the 64% of Australians, who according to the Lowy report published by the left-wing The Guardian, think climate change is the greatest threat to our national interests, clearly didn't vote that way. In an election that was, according to The Guardian, the climate change election, the major party advocating higher renewables and lower emissions targets got nowhere near 64% of the vote. Indeed, the ALP vote in percentage terms was significantly lower than the No vote in the SSM plebiscite. That observation has nothing to do with either Katherine Murphy or Michael McCormack.

Blunderbuss
11-11-2019, 04:39 PM
I'm not sure why this post is issued as a response to my simple observation that the 64% of Australians, who according to the Lowy report published by the left-wing The Guardian, think climate change is the greatest threat to our national interests, clearly didn't vote that way. In an election that was, according to The Guardian, the climate change election, the major party advocating higher renewables and lower emissions targets got nowhere near 64% of the vote. Indeed, the ALP vote in percentage terms was significantly lower than the No vote in the SSM plebiscite. That observation has nothing to do with either Katherine Murphy or Michael McCormack.

The quote is relevant because she is saying elections are all well and good, but they don’t actually change the underlining facts. And just because one side scored a narrow overall victory doesn’t mean the remaining 48.5% have to shut-up.
While climate change was to the fore in the election. People rarely if ever vote on a single issue – many would have been swayed by other factors – Franking Credits, Death Taxes maybe?

Having said that there was one electorate where Climate Change probably was the defining issue – Warringah. Where nearly 60% rejected the sitting climate denier and returned Zali Steggall instead.

Ian Murray
11-11-2019, 04:49 PM
Both parties failed to engage with young voters. Disillusioned with Australian-flavoured democracy, they stayed away in droves

Voter turnout at record low after young people disengage
(https://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/voter-turnout-at-record-low-after-young-people-disengage-20190530-p51sol.html)

idledim
11-11-2019, 05:30 PM
The quote is relevant because she is saying elections are all well and good, but they don’t actually change the underlining facts. And just because one side scored a narrow overall victory doesn’t mean the remaining 48.5% have to shut-up.
While climate change was to the fore in the election. People rarely if ever vote on a single issue – many would have been swayed by other factors – Franking Credits, Death Taxes maybe?

Having said that there was one electorate where Climate Change probably was the defining issue – Warringah. Where nearly 60% rejected the sitting climate denier and returned Zali Steggall instead.

I still don't understand why the post was issued in response to my post. My post made no observations about the 'underlining facts' (whatever underlining facts might be). Nor did I make any reference to what the minority should or should not do. It's not the relevance of your general observation I was questioning - just what it had to do with my observation about Ian's link to a pre-election Lowy poll as reported by (the left-wing propaganda newspaper) The Guardian.

As to your observation that people vote for many reasons: indeed they do - and I'm sure you would have acknowledged this if the ALP had won! However, it was The Guardian that kept calling it the climate change election.

Ian Murray
11-11-2019, 06:06 PM
...my observation about Ian's link to a pre-election Lowy poll as reported by (the left-wing propaganda newspaper) The Guardian. .

Your observation was:

Of course, it wouldn't affect the validity of the proposition if 2% agreed with it (or if 100% agreed with it) -
MB's proposition is

the very fact that we deal with the climate matters ahead of socio-economic ones is a clear indication that some people view the whole ''climate challenge'' as an escape from economic reality of the everyday life. -

His proposition is purely speculative and has no demonstrated validity at all

You labour the point that The Guardian leans to the left as if that has any relevance to its coverage of a report by the Lowy Institute (which leans right).

Patrick Byrom
11-11-2019, 06:09 PM
Last but not least, the very fact that we deal with the climate matters ahead of socio-economic ones is a clear indication that some people view the whole ''climate challenge'' as an escape from economic reality of the everyday life.As you should be aware, Australia relies on its climate for a significant part of its economy. So concern about global heating causing worse droughts and bushfires is hardly an 'escape' from reality. Not to mention the economic devastation they cause, and the lives lost.

MichaelBaron
11-11-2019, 06:44 PM
Your observation was:

MB's proposition is


His proposition is purely speculative and has no demonstrated validity at all

You labour the point that The Guardian leans to the left as if that has any relevance to its coverage of a report by the Lowy Institute (which leans right).

What is speculative about suggestions to focus on the matters of economic growth, employment, education...

Patrick Byrom
11-11-2019, 07:03 PM
What is speculative about suggestions to focus on the matters of economic growth, employment, education...Which is not what you said originally.

Maybe you should listen to the Mayor of Glen Innes (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/11/weve-been-in-bushfire-hell-in-glen-innes-and-the-scientists-knew-it-was-coming), who hasn't been able to focus on economic growth, employment or education because she has been too busy protecting her town from bushfires made worse by global heating:


Already there are armchair experts ready with free advice about meeting with disaster. Let it be made perfectly clear that all the area that burned has already been a fire ground for two months. There were hazard reduction and backburns under state authority last month and last year. The properties were all well-prepared and extensively defended. People who have lived with fire risk for decades knew exactly what to do, and they did it. The full expertise and advice of fire controllers has been heeded at every turn. I’ll put my 20-year Rural Fire Service medal up against your free advice any day of the week.

The anger is real. The anger is justified. Because this disaster was all foreseen and predicted. For decades the link between a hotter, drier climate, land-clearing, excessive irrigation and increased fire risk have all been attested in scientific papers.

Ian Murray
11-11-2019, 07:04 PM
What is speculative about suggestions to focus on the matters of economic growth, employment, education...

You made no such suggestions. You said: "the very fact that we deal with the climate matters ahead of socio-economic ones is a clear indication that some people view the whole ''climate challenge'' as an escape from economic reality of the everyday life"

Unless you can demonstrate that the climate challenge is used as an escape mechanism, the allegation is purely speculative

Ian Murray
11-11-2019, 07:23 PM
Climate Change’s Giant Impact on the Economy: 4 Key Issues (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/upshot/how-to-think-about-the-costs-of-climate-change.html)
New York Times
17.1.19

Many of the big economic questions in coming decades will come down to just how extreme the weather will be, and how to value the future versus the present. ...

idledim
11-11-2019, 07:50 PM
Your observation was:

MB's proposition is


His proposition is purely speculative and has no demonstrated validity at all

You labour the point that The Guardian leans to the left as if that has any relevance to its coverage of a report by the Lowy Institute (which leans right).

For the sake of doubt, the proposition I referred to in #5468 was the proposition you referred to in #5466 - namely, the Bioscience report. As I said there, the validity of that report is not dependant on opinion polling. That was the only proposition I was aware of in your post.
As to whether the left-wing or centrist or centrist-right or right-wing orientation of a newspaper might be relevant to the way it reports a report ... of course it is. It's surprising that anyone would conclude otherwise.
As to the findings of the poll, 2 things: first, poll results cannot determine the validity of a proposition. Even if they could, the responses usually just depend on the question; and second, if you do think it's useful to link Lowy report polling, why not link the most recent poll (i.e. June, 2019)?

idledim
11-11-2019, 07:59 PM
Both parties failed to engage with young voters. Disillusioned with Australian-flavoured democracy, they stayed away in droves

Voter turnout at record low after young people disengage
(https://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/voter-turnout-at-record-low-after-young-people-disengage-20190530-p51sol.html)

So (a favourite luvvie conjunction) some young leftist luvvies in leftist luvvie electorates did not vote. Therefore it must be someone else's fault.

If they had voted, it's quite likely that LLC (leftist luvvie central) electorates would still be LLC electorates, but with increased LLC majorities.

In other news: dog bites man!

antichrist
12-11-2019, 01:10 AM
So (a favourite luvvie conjunction) some young leftist luvvies in leftist luvvie electorates did not vote. Therefore it must be someone else's fault.

If they had voted, it's quite likely that LLC (leftist luvvie central) electorates would still be LLC electorates, but with increased LLC majorities.

In other news: dog bites man!

It could make a difference for Senate representation.and for political party funding. Man bites dog, Peter Garrett may have been elected for the Nuclear Disarmament Party.

Blunderbuss
12-11-2019, 10:07 AM
Deadliness of hurricanes is a useless comparative measure because of changes in forecasting, construction standards, evacuation ability and medical care (all of which count against a high death toll) but also population density (which counts for a higher death toll), and probably other things beside.

A new paper looked at the amount of land that was totally destroyed by more than 240 storms between 1900 and 2018, based on insurance industry databases. The authors found that the frequency of the most damaging hurricanes had increased by a rate of 330% per century.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50380431 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50380431)



The biggest and most damaging hurricanes are now three times more frequent than they were 100 years ago, say researchers.

Using a new method of calculating the destruction, the scientists say the increase in frequency is "unequivocal".

Previous attempts to isolate the impact of climate change on hurricanes have often came up with conflicting results.

But the new study says the increase in damage caused by these big cyclones is linked by global warming.

MichaelBaron
12-11-2019, 02:16 PM
A new paper looked at the amount of land that was totally destroyed by more than 240 storms between 1900 and 2018, based on insurance industry databases. The authors found that the frequency of the most damaging hurricanes had increased by a rate of 330% per century.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50380431 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50380431)



The biggest and most damaging hurricanes are now three times more frequent than they were 100 years ago, say researchers.

Using a new method of calculating the destruction, the scientists say the increase in frequency is "unequivocal".

Previous attempts to isolate the impact of climate change on hurricanes have often came up with conflicting results.

But the new study says the increase in damage caused by these big cyclones is linked by global warming.

How accurate could the data be for years prior to 1700-1800 worldwide? :)

Patrick Byrom
12-11-2019, 02:33 PM
How accurate could the data be for years prior to 1700-1800 worldwide? :)What does that have to do with a study that only covers the period between 1900 and 2018?

Patrick Byrom
12-11-2019, 02:39 PM
What is speculative about suggestions to focus on the matters of economic growth, employment, education...Focussing on education is a bit difficult when your school has been closed (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-11/nsw-schools-shut-down-to-prepare-for-fire-emergency/11692866) due to bushfires made worse by global heating: "Around 600 schools will be closed across NSW as 'catastrophic' fire conditions threaten highly-populated areas around Sydney, Wollongong and Newcastle."

idledim
12-11-2019, 02:59 PM
Focussing on education is a bit difficult when your school has been closed (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-11/nsw-schools-shut-down-to-prepare-for-fire-emergency/11692866) due to bushfires made worse by global heating: "Around 600 schools will be closed across NSW as 'catastrophic' fire conditions threaten highly-populated areas around Sydney, Wollongong and Newcastle."

... and that this should happen within a week of an ABC Q&A guest calling on people to 'burn stuff up' is deeply concerning. Nor was this the first, or even the second, time in recent months that the ABC has allowed calls to arson to be aired on the taxpayer-funded public broadcaster. It is absolutely reckless. We're told that about 85% of bushfires are caused by people - either accidentally or deliberately (with only about 6% caused by lightning strikes). It may be too early for anyone to know the real reason for these catastrophic bushfires, but it's certainly not too early to ban anyone inciting arson from broadcasting it, or to take action against any organisation that permits it.

Patrick Byrom
12-11-2019, 04:14 PM
... and that this should happen within a week of an ABC Q&A guest calling on people to 'burn stuff up' is deeply concerning. Nor was this the first, or even the second, time in recent months that the ABC has allowed calls to arson to be aired on the taxpayer-funded public broadcaster. It is absolutely reckless. We're told that about 85% of bushfires are caused by people - either accidentally or deliberately (with only about 6% caused by lightning strikes). It may be too early for anyone to know the real reason for these catastrophic bushfires, but it's certainly not too early to ban anyone inciting arson from broadcasting it, or to take action against any organisation that permits it.Here are some of the examples of deliberately lit fires that the police have taken action against (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2019/nov/12/nsw-fires-qld-bushfires-queensland-australia-new-south-wales-catastrophic-fire-danger-warning-emergency-sydney-illawarra-hunter-shoalhaven). Which ones were caused by an ABC program:

There is a total fire ban in New South Wales today, and the police are taking that very seriously. The NSW police say they’ve taken action against three men for breaching the ban, and a child for committing an act of arson. Yesterday afternoon, a 27-year-old man in Wallacia allegedly lit a camp fire to boil water for a cup of tea. Police issued him with a $2,200 on-the-spot fine. Then in the evening, a 35-year-old man in Prestons was issued with an infringement notice for allegedly burning fence palings in a barbecue, which caused a secondary blaze. A 46-year-old man allegedly lit a fire in a small coal barbecue at Lalor Park. He was arrested for failing to comply with the ban, and for a breach of bail. A 9-year-old boy has been issued with a warning after starting a small grassfire using a blowtorch in Worrigee this morning.

Of course we know the 'real reason' for the bushfires. Man-made global heating has created the perfect conditions for them. The Prime Minister was warned (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-11/carol-sparks-climate-change-federal-government-claire-pontin/11691444)about this months ago - long before those ABC programs:

Mr Mullins and 22 other former emergency chiefs wrote a letter to Mr Morrison earlier this year predicting a bushfire crisis and calling the Prime Minister to the table to come with an action plan. The meeting has not been held.

And this profile of bushfire arsonists hardly fits the average ABC viewer (https://aic.gov.au/publications/bfab/bfab059):

In Australia, it is difficult to get a consolidated understanding of the profile of bushfire arsonists and their motivations, mainly because of the low numbers that are apprehended. There is quite a rich international literature where numbers are higher which suggests a distinct profile, that is, white male, mid-20s, patchy employment record, often above average intelligence but poor academic achievement and poor social development (Willis 2004).

Ian Murray
12-11-2019, 10:04 PM
These tree-planting drones are firing ‘seed missiles’ into the ground. Less than a year later, they’re already 20 inches tall.
(https://www.good.is/articles/drones-planting-trees?fbclid=IwAR10yUrlzoQr5zzz2WlP5dmtjxCqY47MUjE WO5Abz85tzZ4FExl8WFFFUkM)
Good
17.4.19

...In September 2018, a project in Myanmar used drones to fire “seed missiles" into remote areas of the country where trees were not growing. Less than a year later, thousands of those seed missiles have sprouted into 20-inch mangrove saplings that could literally be a case study in how technology can be used to innovate our way out of the climate change crisis....

...just two operators could send out a mini-fleet of seed missile planting drones that could plant 400,000 trees a day -- a number that quite possibly could make massive headway in combating the effects of manmade climate change....

MichaelBaron
13-11-2019, 12:13 AM
What does that have to do with a study that only covers the period between 1900 and 2018?

If the study covers only relatively small period in the life of our planet - how can it possibly be used to measure long-term climate changes?

antichrist
13-11-2019, 12:28 AM
If the study covers only relatively small period in the life of our planet - how can it possibly be used to measure long-term climate changes?
This sounds like if you don't have the facts then argue the process. And if you can't argue the process then bang your shoe on the table that Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev did at the UN. It is much more effective if they smell to the high heavens

Ian Murray
13-11-2019, 07:56 AM
If the study covers only relatively small period in the life of our planet - how can it possibly be used to measure long-term climate changes?

The method is not meant to be used to measure long-term climate changes, but the relative (normalised) destruction caused by hurricanes.


Significance

We present an approach to normalize hurricane damage, where damage is framed in terms of an equivalent area of total destruction. This has some advantages over customary normalization schemes, and we demonstrate that our record has reduced variance and correlates marginally better with wind speeds and pressure. That is, it allows us to better address climatic trends. We find that hurricanes are indeed becoming more damaging. The frequency of the very most damaging hurricanes has increased at a rate of 330% per century.

Abstract

Hurricanes are the most destructive natural disasters in the United States. The record of economic damage from hurricanes shows a steep positive trend dominated by increases in wealth. It is necessary to account for temporal changes in exposed wealth, in a process called normalization, before we can compare the destructiveness of recorded damaging storms from different areas and at different times. Atmospheric models predict major hurricanes to get more intense as Earth warms, and we expect this trend to eventually emerge above the natural variability in the record of normalized damage. However, the evidence for an increasing trend in normalized damage since 1900 has been controversial. In this study, we develop a record of normalized damage since 1900 based on an equivalent area of total destruction. Here, we show that this record has an improved signal-to-noise ratio over earlier normalization schemes based on calculations of present-day economic damage. Our data reveal an emergent positive trend in damage, which we attribute to a detectable change in extreme storms due to global warming. Moreover, we show that this increasing trend in damage can also be exposed in existing normalized damage records by looking at the frequency of the largest damage events. Our record of normalized damage, framed in terms of an equivalent area of total destruction, is a more reliable measure for climate-related changes in extreme weather, and can be used for better risk assessments on hurricane disasters.
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/11/05/1912277116

Ian Murray
13-11-2019, 08:51 AM
If the US military is facing up to the climate crisis, shouldn't we all? (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/12/us-military-pentagon-climate-crisis-breakdown-?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0Jlc3RPZkd1YXJkaWFuT3Bpbmlv blVTLTE5MTExMg%3D%3D&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=BestOfGuardianOpinionUS&CMP=opinionus_email)

...“Climate change is an urgent and growing threat to our national security, contributing to increased natural disasters, refugee flows, and conflicts over basic resources such as food and water,” the Department of Defense (DoD) told Congress in a 2015 memorandum. “These impacts are already occurring, and the scope, scale, and intensity of these impacts are projected to increase over time.”

In this, and other Pentagon documents, senior officials have identified three main pathways by which climate change is likely to endanger American security: by increasing the level of conflict and chaos abroad; by exposing the homeland to ever more destructive climate effects; and by obstructing the military’s capacity to carry out its assigned missions.

As global temperatures rise, Pentagon officials fear, essential resources will dwindle in many poor and divided countries, provoking conflict among internal factions and threatening the survival of fragile governments. In this chaotic environment, terrorist groups will flourish while dispossessed farmers will migrate in search of jobs—typically encountering hostility wherever they go. All this instability, the generals fear, will result in deadly pandemics, incessant warfare, and a relentless call on the United States to provide humanitarian relief and troop support.

Equally worrisome, in the generals’ view, is the likelihood that climate change will cause grave harm to the homeland. The nation’s East and Gulf Coasts are highly exposed to powerful hurricanes while its West and Southwest are vulnerable to prolonged droughts and forest fires. To make matters worse, scientists fear that extreme events of this sort will increasingly occur in clusters, with one disaster following immediately after another—much as Hurricanes Irma and Maria followed Harvey in August-September 2017.

For the US military, the prospect of an increasing frequency of storm clusters is deeply troubling, as the armed forces will repeatedly be called upon to assist local authorities in providing relief services, diverting them from other core responsibilities. “More frequent and/or more severe extreme weather events,” the Pentagon affirmed, “may require substantial involvement of DoD units, personnel, and assets in” future relief operations.

This will be made all the more challenging by the prospect of climate-related threats to the military’s own mobilization capabilities. The same storms that devastated much of the southeast in 2017 also battered numerous bases, resulting in the mandatory evacuation of most personnel. A similar predicament arose in 2018, when Hurricanes Florence and Michael produced severe damage to several key installations in Florida and the Carolinas...

MichaelBaron
14-11-2019, 12:13 AM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156278507681315&set=gm.2173891069574282&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Ian Murray
14-11-2019, 07:37 AM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156278507681315&set=gm.2173891069574282&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Whatever you wanted to share with us has been taken down from Facebook. Probably for a reason.

idledim
14-11-2019, 08:50 AM
Of course we know the 'real reason' for the bushfires. (PB)

3939

Blunderbuss
14-11-2019, 10:15 AM
Of course we know the 'real reason' for the bushfires. (PB)

Poor old Oz having to replace Jon Kudelka with Johannes Leak.

3940

And of course all the best cartoonist now live in Tassie - First Dog on the Moon (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/13/we-mustnt-bring-politics-into-the-disastrous-situation-that-was-created-by-wait-for-it-politics)

MichaelBaron
14-11-2019, 10:48 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/greens-are-slammed-over-extraordinary-claims-firefighters-battling-australias-devastating-blazes-will-return-home-to-bash-their-partners/ar-BBWH7vT?ocid=spartanntp&fbclid=IwAR1BrupXPIE24ne5b1TYBKHuMIGaUz1dgkC99fzJl OA1PQ_fQv_v9NrZbzw

And of course we know, Global warming Increases Domestic Violence....at least according to the Greens that is!

MichaelBaron
14-11-2019, 10:52 AM
Whatever you wanted to share with us has been taken down from Facebook. Probably for a reason.3941


What a fantastic assumption...or probably not taken down...but group where it was shared allows only members to see.

Patrick Byrom
14-11-2019, 11:08 AM
... What a fantastic assumption...or probably not taken down...but group where it was shared allows only members to see.Probably a good idea - I doubt that people in Australia actually fighting the fires would see the 'humor'.

Are you denying that man-made climate change makes fires worse, as the scientists at the BOM and CSIRO have told us? If so, do you have any actual evidence for this claim, other than Facebook memes?