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MichaelBaron
08-10-2019, 12:46 AM
A strange mindset. In your view there is a cohort of Australians who work for a living, and a completely separate cohort who join protests. In the real world the two overlap significantly.

In my view there is a cohort of Australians who should first learn to take care of themselves..then dare to educate others how to take care of the world!

ER
08-10-2019, 06:45 AM
And I do what I do completely for free, I have not received any money or any promise of future payments in any form at all.
How things have changed in a few months Greta! I mean receiving that prize of $270 grand isn't exactly chicken feed. Is there more to come btw?

Ian Murray
08-10-2019, 09:13 AM
How things have changed in a few months Greta! I mean receiving that prize of $270 grand isn't exactly chicken feed. Is there more to come btw?

Eat your heart out :) She is also favourite to win the Nobel Peace Prize

antichrist
08-10-2019, 10:07 AM
In my view there is a cohort of Australians who should first learn to take care of themselves..then dare to educate others how to take care of the world!

Well the indigenous people of this country took care of themselves before the colonialists came to educate them how to stuff up the environment. As far as the non-indigenous they don't have to be guided by polluters on how to not stand up for their clean environment rights. Rights are not extinguished by levels of income - even prisoners get the vote and even Trump has enacted that in the USA. But don't get too excited because there was no empathy involved in it. It was because Kushner's father was in prison that he saw first hand whereas a person with empathy would realise without having to witness first hand. People with the dollar stamped on their souls are limited.

ER
08-10-2019, 10:48 AM
Eat your heart out :) She is also favourite to win the Nobel Peace Prize

eating my heart out for someone who makes fortunes on your gullibility? :D
obviously your eating the crap she serves you has better taste! :P

Blunderbuss
08-10-2019, 11:27 AM
eating my heart out for someone who makes fortunes on your gullibility? :D
obviously your eating the crap she serves you has better taste! :P

No doubt it’s difficult for 'People with the dollar stamped on their souls’ (thanks - antichrist) to comprehend, but maybe Greta isn’t motivated by the money?

‘Thunberg said she would donate the €25,000 prize money to four organisations working for climate justice’ - https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/454143-greta-thunberg-receives-normandys-first-freedom-prize-donates-prize (https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/454143-greta-thunberg-receives-normandys-first-freedom-prize-donates-prize)

And since the money appears to be finding it’s way to groups that obviously wind you up – so much the better!

Ian Murray
08-10-2019, 01:15 PM
...

And since the money appears to be finding it’s way to groups that obviously wind you up – so much the better!

Right on!

Desmond
08-10-2019, 01:17 PM
eating my heart out for someone who makes fortunes on your gullibility? :D
obviously your eating the crap she serves you has better taste! :P

Err gullibility in what respect?

Perhaps you're a subscriber to the idea (https://twitter.com/ScottWesterfeld/status/446805144781348865):

Plot idea: 97% of the world's scientists contrive an environmental crisis, but are exposed by a plucky band of billionaires & oil companies.

MichaelBaron
08-10-2019, 03:24 PM
https://www.facebook.com/victoriapolice/photos/a.223960551009422/3121414934597288/?type=3&theater

Patrick Byrom
08-10-2019, 07:06 PM
Err gullibility in what respect? ... Does anyone here contribute financially to Thunberg - I don't? And I certainly don't rely on her for climate science information, and neither would anyone else here.

Desmond
08-10-2019, 07:39 PM
Does anyone here contribute financially to Thunberg - I don't? And I certainly don't rely on her for climate science information, and neither would anyone else here.

I'd never even heard of her prior to last week (or whenever she was raised here).

It seems to be a recurring theme of the denialists - ignore the scientific discussion and knock over strawmen.

Ian Murray
08-10-2019, 08:06 PM
Does anyone here contribute financially to Thunberg - I don't? And I certainly don't rely on her for climate science information, and neither would anyone else here.

I've been watching her progress for some time. I've never heard of any appeals, crowdfunding etc to raise money for her.

Believing she's in it for the money is patently baseless.

ER
08-10-2019, 11:52 PM
Well the indigenous people of this country took care of themselves before the colonialists came to educate them how to stuff up the environment.

They stuffed up the environment themselves since not actually being able to cultivate land, they just burnt it to create hunting grounds.
Problem was they didnt have the technology or the know how ability to stop the rot and the fires kept on burning and burning.


As far as the non-indigenous they don't have to be guided by polluters on how to not stand up for their clean environment rights.

You 're stuck with either the indigenous who know their rights quite well, look what they did to that Bob Brown(husband of Paul Thomas) character! they kicked them out of the mining QLD town
of Clermont when they led some sorry antimining mob to agitate against Adani's mining business or the city trouble makers who block traffic in CBDs and get rightly arrested.


People with the dollar stamped on their souls are limited.

I don't care about dollar signs stamped on my soul, engraved on my bald patch or stuck up my arse. I told you before my fiscal development stages were
1) Work hard, (took me some bloody time to follow that one)
2) Save as much as you can (that wasn't easy either)
3) Invest wisely (that I was good at so it replaced 1 and 2 with admittedly some GM moves and variations)
4) Now that you've achieved 1, 2 and 3 spend the darn lot and enjoy yourself! (told you before I don't believe in wills and inheritances .
I got none of that I give none of that!) Well truth is I do help vulnerable people out sometimes but don't tell.
Well, during the above mentioned process I have acquired some expensive habits and I need the bucks to fulfill them.
If you like it OK if you don't just get stuffed! :D :P

ER
09-10-2019, 12:37 AM
https://www.facebook.com/victoriapolice/photos/a.223960551009422/3121414934597288/?type=3&theater
hehe they shouldn't worry, Greta will bail them out! Well. maybe! :D :P

antichrist
09-10-2019, 12:47 AM
They stuffed up the environment themselves since not actually being able to cultivate land, they just burnt it to create hunting grounds.
Problem was they didnt have the technology or the know how ability to stop the rot and the fires kept on burning and burning...……...

I have not read anything about this but knowing that Aborigines understood the environment very well I would guess that they could time their fires to coincide to when winds are in particular directions and rains may be on the way so they sort of had control. They were part of stone age man who occupied the planet a hundred of thousand of years (I don't know) and the biosphere may have slowly changed but due to small relative (to today") population it certainly survived. Whereas now with billions of people and a highly polluting industrialisation there is no comparison. They never poisoned rivers like they were in Oz and overseas in the sixties. No jets destroying the ozone layer etc etc. No nuke bombs wrecking islands like the French did. No gas camps. No nuke meltdowns. No twin towers. Their biggest evil may have been treatment of women.

Desmond
09-10-2019, 08:11 AM
They stuffed up the environment themselves since not actually being able to cultivate land, they just burnt it to create hunting grounds.
Problem was they didnt have the technology or the know how ability to stop the rot and the fires kept on burning and burning.Say what? Perhaps you should read:

The “fire stick farming” hypothesis: Australian Aboriginal foraging strategies, biodiversity, and anthropogenic fire mosaics (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/39/14796)
R. Bliege Bird, D. W. Bird, B. F. Codding, C. H. Parker, and J. H. Jones, 2008.

Ian Murray
09-10-2019, 09:57 AM
Say what? Perhaps you should read:

The “fire stick farming” hypothesis: Australian Aboriginal foraging strategies, biodiversity, and anthropogenic fire mosaics (https://www.pnas.org/content/105/39/14796)
R. Bliege Bird, D. W. Bird, B. F. Codding, C. H. Parker, and J. H. Jones, 2008.

He's made up his mind. Don't try to confuse him with science

ER
09-10-2019, 10:35 AM
I have not read anything about this but knowing that Aborigines understood the environment very well I would guess that they could time their fires to coincide to when winds are in particular directions and rains may be on the way so they sort of had control.

Cool story bro, but absolute frogshit! Biased greenie pseudo scientific nonsense makes a good read for indoctrinated gullible arm chair environmentalists.
However, real people who lived through facts and situations and who wouldn't give a shit about modern political correctness are giving us a different side of the story!


Ernest Giles (1889), Australia Twice Traversed. The natives were about, burning, burning, ever burning; one would think they … lived on fire instead of water.


report from Port Essington in Arnhemland. The natives set fire to the grass which is abundant everywhere, and at that time is quite dry… The conflagration spreads until the whole country as far as the eye can reach, is in a grand and brilliant illumination.’


Captain James Cook wrote that his crew ‘saw upon all the Adjacent Lands and Islands a great number of smokes — a certain sign that they are inhabited ... '


George Vancouver the very extraordinary devastation by fire which the vegetable productions had suffered throughout the whole country we had traversed


Stuart (1865) I wish it would rain and cause the grass to become green, so as to stop them burning...

Interesting points you make in the rest of your text but I can't discuss now because I am busy. Chat later!

MichaelBaron
09-10-2019, 11:46 PM
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1188102/Extinction-Rebellion-protest-diesel-generator-London-camp-climate-change-environment?fbclid=IwAR0fhNuqiG-4KOk49efHNV5O7EQyNl_ivCJCZGuRVzXnIF36Q3m_KWXLorQ
Got to share :)

Desmond
10-10-2019, 07:44 AM
Half a century of dither and denial – a climate crisis timeline
(https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/oct/09/half-century-dither-denial-climate-crisis-timeline)

Fossil fuel companies have been aware of their impact on the planet since at least the 1950s

For more than 50 years, the petroleum industry and politicians have been warned about the climate risks of burning fossil fuels. Yet the top 20 fossil fuel firms have continued to expand and have been behind a third of all carbon emissions since 1965. This timeline shows who knew what and when, and how they communicated or obscured the threat to the public. ...

antichrist
10-10-2019, 07:53 AM
Half a century of dither and denial – a climate crisis timeline
(https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/oct/09/half-century-dither-denial-climate-crisis-timeline)

Fossil fuel companies have been aware of their impact on the planet since at least the 1950s

For more than 50 years, the petroleum industry and politicians have been warned about the climate risks of burning fossil fuels. Yet the top 20 fossil fuel firms have continued to expand and have been behind a third of all carbon emissions since 1965. This timeline shows who knew what and when, and how they communicated or obscured the threat to the public. ...

We don't need their admission just go and view a row of oil refineries burning away 24 7 365 100 years and that tells it all and that is without the subsequent vehicle pollution. I am sure you entered Mascot circling Kurnell refineries at full blaze. Forget we were on a jet. meep meep

ER
10-10-2019, 08:08 AM
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1188102/Extinction-Rebellion-protest-diesel-generator-London-camp-climate-change-environment?fbclid=IwAR0fhNuqiG-4KOk49efHNV5O7EQyNl_ivCJCZGuRVzXnIF36Q3m_KWXLorQ
Got to share :)

Dob them in to Greta, the cheating so and sos! :D :P

Desmond
10-10-2019, 08:13 AM
We don't need their admission just go and view a row of oil refineries burning away 24 7 365 100 years and that tells it all and that is without the subsequent vehicle pollution. I am sure you entered Mascot circling Kurnell refineries at full blaze. Forget we were on a jet. meep meep

That's right - we don't - but I think the timeline is interesting. This for example:

1990
Exxon funds two researchers, Dr Fred Seitz and Dr Fred Singer, who dispute the mainstream consensus on climate science. Seitz and Singer were previously paid by the tobacco industry and questioned the hazards of smoking. Singer, who has denied being on the payroll of the tobacco or energy industry, has said his financial relationships do not influence his research.

Ian Murray
10-10-2019, 08:47 AM
..However, real people who lived through facts and situations and who wouldn't give a shit about modern political correctness are giving us a different side of the story!...

Quoted by Charles Darwin Uni as examples of early European lack of understanding (http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/units/env207/introduction/history.html):


The extensive use of fire by Aboriginal people across Australia was recorded and documented by early European explorers. Not only did the explorers record the presence of widespread fire but they also blamed it for damaging the landscape.

What did early explorers have to say about fire? Here are some quotes from early explorer diaries and records.

The natives were about, burning, burning, ever burning; one would think they … lived on fire instead of water.’ Ernest Giles (1889), Australia Twice Traversed.

The natives set fire to the grass which is abundant everywhere, and at that time is quite dry… The conflagration spreads until the whole country as far as the eye can reach, is in a grand and brilliant illumination.’ Report from Port Essington, in Arnhemland.

Captain James Cook wrote that his crew ‘saw upon all the Adjacent Lands and Islands a great number of smokes — a certain sign that they are inhabited ... '

... the very extraordinary devastation by fire which the vegetable productions had suffered throughout the whole country we had traversed – George Vancouver.

I wish it would rain and cause the grass to become green, so as to stop them burning... – Stuart (1865).

The same summary concludes:


Largely as a result of European misunderstanding and fear of fire, fire suppression rapidly became the dominant paradigm in fire management; in most areas there was a large shift away from traditional burning practices.

In northern Australia, the disruption of traditional burning practices means that many areas (e.g. the Top End) are now prone to extensive wildfires that sweep through the country late in the dry season.

Blunderbuss
10-10-2019, 09:37 AM
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1188102/Extinction-Rebellion-protest-diesel-generator-London-camp-climate-change-environment?fbclid=IwAR0fhNuqiG-4KOk49efHNV5O7EQyNl_ivCJCZGuRVzXnIF36Q3m_KWXLorQ
Got to share :)

When it comes to the Climate Crisis you are either a hypocrite or an arsehole. The time has come to decide which you'd rather be. (http://www.jonathanpie.com) Broadcast 08.10.2019


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeFO_LHOu8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeFO_LHOu8)

Desmond
10-10-2019, 09:55 AM
When it comes to the Climate Crisis you are either a hypocrite or an arsehole. The time has come to decide which you'd rather be. (http://www.jonathanpie.com) Broadcast 08.10.2019


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeFO_LHOu8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeFO_LHOu8)

That was pretty funny :lol:

ER
10-10-2019, 12:59 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/world-reacts-to-turkeys-military-operation-in-northeast-syria/ar-AAIxxeh?ocid=spartanntp

well, not as harsh a punishment as it should be, but ok for a start!

Ian Murray
10-10-2019, 01:05 PM
That was pretty funny :lol:

Priceless :)

ER
10-10-2019, 01:25 PM
Largely as a result of European misunderstanding and fear of fire, fire suppression rapidly became the dominant paradigm in fire management; in most areas there was a large shift away from traditional burning practices.
In northern Australia, the disruption of traditional burning practices means that many areas (e.g. the Top End) are now prone to extensive wildfires that sweep through the country late in the dry season.

The tropics, and continuous rainfalls, cause the Northern Territory to be the less bushfire affected area in Australia despite the dense forests there and in QLD.
I was reading some forestry reports claiming that deforestation and tree-clearing (*) is a much more dangerous enemy of ecosystems than bushfires themselves!
(*) In a way and despite their primitive methods of land clearing the natives contributed to negative outcomes. As I have stated in another note long time ago
aboriginal techniques to preserve fire were remarkable as was their ability to use weapons such as boorangs and spears to hunt and to fish!

MichaelBaron
10-10-2019, 03:03 PM
https://7news.com.au/travel/victoria-traffic/extinction-rebellion-activists-in-melbourne-glue-themselves-together-c-496485?fbclid=IwAR33k9V6nu1LjncmH-WSbJCnrhkzeUp-KJ7HGjfswsRL93_NXrE4qWX2roc

So what sort of behaviour is this....how are we supposed to react to these clowns?

MichaelBaron
10-10-2019, 03:05 PM
https://7news.com.au/news/victoria-police/victorian-police-stopping-crime-reducing-work-to-deal-with-protests-c-495597

As the article says...its getting beyond joke..washing themselves in fountains

antichrist
10-10-2019, 03:51 PM
https://7news.com.au/news/victoria-police/victorian-police-stopping-crime-reducing-work-to-deal-with-protests-c-495597

As the article says...its getting beyond joke..washing themselves in fountains

They are only following my bad example from 1976 from Friends of Earth bicycle ride anti nuke protest to Parliament House Canberra where we camped on the House's lawn and bathed in the fountain. Best camping ground I have been to in my whole life and was free. And I recall playing chess in our tent there under candle light and I won. I am heartened that my protests have contributed to further protests 45 years later.

Ian Murray
10-10-2019, 04:11 PM
https://7news.com.au/news/victoria-police/victorian-police-stopping-crime-reducing-work-to-deal-with-protests-c-495597

As the article says...its getting beyond joke..washing themselves in fountains

As the article does not say. You really need to work on your reading comprehension

antichrist
10-10-2019, 05:25 PM
Just to satisfy the oddbods on this site I can't recall what toilet facilities we used in Canberra, maybe we were given a side door entrance to Parliament House, I can't recall any outdoor toilets.

MichaelBaron
10-10-2019, 09:13 PM
As the article does not say. You really need to work on your reading comprehension

Do look at the pictures....picture says 1000 words...please feel free to adopt these clowns into your city. We do not need them in Melbourne

ER
10-10-2019, 09:33 PM
I can't recall what toilet facilities we used in Canberra,...
Forget 1976. your Canberra mates still use "open air" facilities in their "embassy"!

ER
10-10-2019, 09:35 PM
Do look at the pictures....picture says 1000 words...please feel free to adopt these clowns into your city. We do not need them in Melbourne

They 'll have plenty of toilet and bathroom facilities in jail!

antichrist
10-10-2019, 10:57 PM
Forget 1976. your Canberra mates still use "open air" facilities in their "embassy"!

A cousin of mine from Ballina was one the original mob that set the tent embassy up. Already in 1976 climate change was a topic in the environmental movement

ER
10-10-2019, 11:29 PM
Already in 1976 climate change was a topic in the environmental movement

yes, even before that but not as back as in 64-65 where anti-war and class injustice was the name of the game! As I stated
in the shouts Mitchell's song was produced in '70, it had a great impact on the hippy unwashed mob of which I was a part at the time!

MichaelBaron
11-10-2019, 12:08 AM
dressed up in the fountain..what a way to protest...travelling circus....or may be they wanted to collect the coins that tourists drop into the fountain.

antichrist
11-10-2019, 12:09 AM
yes, even before that but not as back as in 64-65 where anti-war and class injustice was the name of the game! As I stated
in the shouts Mitchell's song was produced in '70, it had a great impact on the hippy unwashed mob of which I was a part at the time!

The Green Bans also began at that time in 1971. I don't think there was much of a environmental movement before 1974 when Friends of the Earth began in Sydney. There was probably a few conservative groups but no radical stuff, they may have gone way back in time too. FOE was set up by Bob Tickner plus others, in his terrace house in Crown street I think it was.

antichrist
11-10-2019, 12:20 AM
yes, even before that but not as back as in 64-65 where anti-war and class injustice was the name of the game! As I stated
in the shouts Mitchell's song was produced in '70, it had a great impact on the hippy unwashed mob of which I was a part at the time!

Remember the Beatnik label before hippy.

antichrist
11-10-2019, 12:25 AM
Forget 1976. your Canberra mates still use "open air" facilities in their "embassy"!

I think I got my elderly mother in law (who was with us ) into the Parliament House loo side entrance. I can't recall any politician coming out to address us. I was sent off to protest at the Israeli embassy where I was greeted with open arms and the best of everything. BULLDUST

ER
11-10-2019, 04:38 AM
dressed up in the fountain..what a way to protest...travelling circus....or may be they wanted to collect the coins that tourists drop into the fountain.

I hope their balls get frozen and fall off :D oops there're some ladies there too sorry. Well they have other things to fall off so there.
Melbourne weather still winter here shows them what it thinks about their climate warming crap. Then they 'll come up with bs like " climate warming has different effects you know",
they are like that man for all seasons they are these guys. I wonder why they don't call it climate yoyo or something! That would fit perfectly for the kind of circus they fancy.


The Green Bans also began at that time in 1971

@ AC1 re Green Bans. There were blues on a daily basis, It was all the way from Taylor Square down to Wooloomooloo along Crown St where the BLF (*Maoists) led green bans movement (local residents) vs Developers took place. The cops took the developers side no surprise here. The developers wanted to build high rise office blocks in bushlands and old buildings at the Loo, the Rocks even parts of Hyde Park.

Then the anti-BLF commies like Laurie Aarons from the CP got involved ! The pro-Moscow SP wouldn't buy a bar of it as they concentrated on their wharf business, lots of dough there! Unionist Jack Mundey who looked like Ringo and the resident green banners didnt want them around - they didnt want their movement to be given a political brand but bans without the support of militant unionists would have never taken place let alone succeeded.

.I remember walking from the Conservatorium all the way along Macquarie St (or through Hyde Park to go and have a shit at the hospital loos) and William St.
sometimes entering the grounds of her holiness St Mary's cathedral for a prayer or a food voucher whichever need human or spiritual came first.

Punch ups were ok by me but when things got real hairy - remember that woman activist Juanita Nielsen? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Nielsen
She disappeared out of thin air, the culprits, the body, or the shovel were never found. It was then when I got scared shitless, got into a respectable modus operandum and got married (on
on hindsight I should have stayed with the green bans)!


Remember the Beatnik label before hippy.

@AC 2 I know about the beatniks through their literature. I 've also seen photos and footage from the Mods and the Rockers, but who and what were the Bodgies?

(*) sadly, when Norm G. took over as BLF's secretary gen. he not only turned a blind eye to the developers' plans but he also co-operated with them!

Desmond
11-10-2019, 08:51 AM
dressed up in the fountain..what a way to protest...travelling circus....or may be they wanted to collect the coins that tourists drop into the fountain.
As their object was to gain attention, it seems it was quite effective at, aha, making a splash.

antichrist
11-10-2019, 09:23 AM
As their object was to gain attention, it seems it was quite effective at, aha, making a splash.

One way of looking at it I suppose is that if the business world is messing up the future world of the young then the young can mess up the current world of business. They just need a ref who won't get the tackle count mixed up at the crucial juncture.

MichaelBaron
11-10-2019, 10:16 AM
As their object was to gain attention, it seems it was quite effective at, aha, making a splash.

They should have taken Greta with them...there was still some space left in the fountain :).

Blunderbuss
11-10-2019, 10:59 AM
Democracy Now! on Extinction Rebellion https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=542356429854575 (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=542356429854575)

Bonus not one mention of Greta which is a good thing given - https://www.crikey.com.au/2019/09/27/greta-thunberg-conniptions/ (https://www.crikey.com.au/2019/09/27/greta-thunberg-conniptions/)

antichrist
11-10-2019, 11:36 AM
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?17723-Australia-politics-environment-and-culture-from-WW2-to-Present&p=454690#post454690

Off topic debate about the Bad Old Times more to above link.

Desmond
11-10-2019, 12:45 PM
Democracy Now! on Extinction Rebellion https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=542356429854575 (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=542356429854575)Nice, BrisbAAne got a mention.

MichaelBaron
11-10-2019, 04:28 PM
https://www.facebook.com/657015324686799/videos/405153450383839/UzpfSTEwMDAwNTA2MDczMjU0ODoxMzUzOTE5MzAxNDUzNDE1/

What a highly intellectual performance...and the Brits have to waste police resources on them - obviously they should be slammed with fines and pay the costs for their ridiculous behaviour.

Ian Murray
11-10-2019, 06:10 PM
'We declare our support for Extinction Rebellion': an open letter from Australia's academics (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/sep/20/we-declare-our-support-for-extinction-rebellion-an-open-letter-from-australias-academics?CMP=share_btn_fb)
The Guardian
20.9.19

Leading academics from around the country say it is their moral duty to rebel to ‘defend life itself’

• Hundreds of Australian academics declare support for climate rebellion

...It is unconscionable that we, our children and grandchildren should have to bear the terrifying brunt of this unprecedented disaster. When a government wilfully abrogates its responsibility to protect its citizens from harm and secure the future for generations to come, it has failed in its most essential duty of stewardship. The ‘social contract’ has been broken, and it is therefore not only our right, but our moral duty, to rebel to defend life itself.

We therefore declare our support for the Extinction Rebellion (XR) movement and the global week of non-violent civil disobedience and disruption planned for October. We stand behind XR’s demands for the Australian government to declare a climate emergency and to establish a citizens’ assembly to work with scientists on the basis of current evidence to develop a credible and just plan for rapid total decarbonisation of the economy....

Blunderbuss
11-10-2019, 10:20 PM
protesters not perfect (http://cracknews.co.uk/protesters-not-perfect/)

MichaelBaron
12-10-2019, 03:12 AM
protesters not perfect (http://cracknews.co.uk/protesters-not-perfect/)

They are trying to be funny....but its interesting that even while ''cracking jokes'' they put both being unemployed and ''consuming oxygen'' into the same category of being a nuisance...
this is rather telling...since not all of the oxygen consumers are unemployed.

ER
12-10-2019, 04:08 AM
They are trying to be funny....but its interesting that even while ''cracking jokes'' they put both being unemployed and ''consuming oxygen'' into the same category of being a nuisance...
this is rather telling...since not all of the oxygen consumers are unemployed.

problem is with crackpots breathing oxygen goes to waste!

ER
12-10-2019, 05:40 AM
Meanwhile, in the real world ...'

3913

I keep on reading and listening to this kind of commentary for years:


Beyond the next few years, the outlook for coal prices and demand is increasingly uncertain, particularly for thermal coal.
The global seaborne market for thermal coal has grown significantly over the past 15 years, and Australian thermal coal
exports are competing with plentiful supply from a number of other large low-cost producers.
Many of Australia's key thermal coal export destinations, including China, Japan and South Korea, are transitioning away from coal-powered electricity generation.
A continuation of this trend would be likely to weigh on coal export volumes and prices.


This is encouraging …


On the other hand, demand is expected to grow in other economies in the Asian region,
at least for a period. In particular, India and South-East Asia are likely to become increasingly important destinations
for Australian coal exports over the next few decades as demand for energy grows and new coal-powered projects
are added in these economies.

We' ll wait and see for this …


It is difficult to forecast whether continued growth in exports to these markets might for a period outpace
the global transition to less carbon-intensive electricity generation.

For the whole article, complete with interesting diagrams and analysis re production, exports, prices, different kinds of usage,
and the international scene. please click on the following link ..

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2019/sep/the-changing-global-market-for-australian-coal.html

antichrist
12-10-2019, 07:12 AM
problem is with crackpots breathing oxygen goes to waste!

well they are better than us old farts performing the word just spoken

antichrist
12-10-2019, 08:40 AM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7563957/Jane-Fonda-arrested-climate-change-rally-Washington-D-C-moving-capital.html

Instead of oldies brainwashing Greta it is the opposite - golden oldie Jane Fonda has been arrested



Jane Fonda is arrested at climate change rally in Washington D.C. after moving to the capital and vowing to protest ‘every Friday’
Jane Fonda arrested at a climate change rally by the Capitol Building on Friday
The actress appeared to be led away by police with her hands zip-tied
She took a break from her Netflix show to move to Washington D.C. to protest
Fonda claimed to have been inspired by Sweden's Greta Thunberg

MichaelBaron
12-10-2019, 09:59 AM
Meanwhile, in the real world ...'

3913

I keep on reading and listening to this kind of commentary for years:




This is encouraging …



We' ll wait and see for this …



For the whole article, complete with interesting diagrams and analysis re production, exports, prices, different kinds of usage,
and the international scene. please click on the following link ..

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2019/sep/the-changing-global-market-for-australian-coal.html

Of course, in the real world - economy has to be supported and money has to be made ...to spend on professional protesters who are putting up dress-up parties in the fountains.

antichrist
12-10-2019, 03:15 PM
Of course, in the real world - economy has to be supported and money has to be made ...to spend on professional protesters who are putting up dress-up parties in the fountains.

Try to be a bit more informed and find out about the costumes. One that I know of is of bees and why bees? Because they are being wiped out by climate change and without them a large portion of agriculture will no longer take place. But I don't expect that to register with you or ER.

Ian Murray
12-10-2019, 04:23 PM
Of course, in the real world - economy has to be supported and money has to be made ...to spend on professional protesters who are putting up dress-up parties in the fountains.

Regarding the parody dinner in the fountain, the banner read: "Annual Dinner for Coal Barons", figuratively swamped by rising sea levels. Of course, in the real world the coal barons would keep moving their annual dinner up another floor, until the last rooftop dinner was held.

Ian Murray
12-10-2019, 05:23 PM
Meanwhile, in the real world ...'

3913

I keep on reading and listening to this kind of commentary for years:




This is encouraging …



We' ll wait and see for this …



For the whole article, complete with interesting diagrams and analysis re production, exports, prices, different kinds of usage,
and the international scene. please click on the following link ..

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2019/sep/the-changing-global-market-for-australian-coal.html

So, looking at your graph, coal production peaked in 2014/15 and export growth has been sluggish since (from a 4% annual average growth since 2007/08 to 1% in 2017/18 (https://www.energy.gov.au/sites/default/files/australian_energy_statistics_2019_energy_update_re port_september.pdf) and an estimated 1.8% last year (https://publications.industry.gov.au/publications/resourcesandenergyquarterlyjune2019/index.html).

Too early yet for a decadal trend line since the peak, but looks like the boom has busted.

Ian Murray
12-10-2019, 05:30 PM
Try to be a bit more informed and find out about the costumes. One that I know of is of bees and why bees? Because they are being wiped out by climate change and without them a large portion of agriculture will no longer take place. But I don't expect that to register with you or ER.

France becomes first country in Europe to ban all five pesticides killing bees (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/31/france-first-ban-five-pesticides-killing-bees/)

antichrist
12-10-2019, 08:08 PM
France becomes first country in Europe to ban all five pesticides killing bees (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/31/france-first-ban-five-pesticides-killing-bees/)

I had half right. I had forgotten the real cause. My people had market gardens over the Great Divide and we used absolutely no chemicals and we did not have any problems at all that I can recall. Our only weapon was a scarecrow with my grandfathers old clothes. We even used horse drawn ploughs, my small grandmother could not handle the Clydesdales very well.

MichaelBaron
13-10-2019, 02:12 AM
Regarding the parody dinner in the fountain, the banner read: "Annual Dinner for Coal Barons", figuratively swamped by rising sea levels. Of course, in the real world the coal barons would keep moving their annual dinner up another floor, until the last rooftop dinner was held.

Not sure how much this travelling circus has been accomplishing climate-wise but one thing they accomplished for sure - today, several Allegro participants were struggling to get to the tournament venue on time due to protesters of some kind blocking route for Tram 96 that goes to MCC

ER
13-10-2019, 04:19 AM
So, looking at your graph, coal production peaked in 2014/15 and export growth has been sluggish since (…)
Too early yet for a decadal trend line since the peak, but looks like the boom has busted.

You must understand the value of market stability factor and always examine the relation b/n production and exports.
Of course, the "sluggish" phenomenon in markets can be interpreted in many different or related parameters.
Here, it is the volume of exports as measured by the needs of importing countries for the specific product. It has stabilized, it hasn't decreased.
This is good for my product since it is also good for the national economy, the involved company as well as personal interests for the shareholders.
I give you a small example: when BHP merged with Billiton in 2001 the price of my already profitable shares (then $8.30 apiece) almost quadrupled to $33.50!
During almost two decades of seemingly decreasing of production volume, according to your way of thinking, the profits. share market value, and
general yield dividents for shareholders would have dramatically fallen, right? Wrong!! Last Friday evening, at the close it was almost $35.50!

Don't you ever think that I don't look at the big picture of the ever changing nature of our and the world's economy.
I understand that these days advanced automation as part of transformative technology or modern amazingly effective methods of artificial intelligence play a major role
in the development of new and improvement of our existing ways of production.

I have already planned and/or started investing in many of those categories, mind you that's for fun nothing serious!
That's because my main incentive is not to follow all those simpletons who block the traffic on CBD (*) or stop the poor vendor machine
technician of entering BHP and Rio Tinto's entry to their offices or even following blindfold the red necks who shout gung ho gimme coal! My main incentive is What's in it for Me!

So, the main reason for me to go coal is that a) I know that as far as a source of energy in a country like Australia
is irreplaceable for many years to come, b) I know that some good and reliable customers will keep on satisfying their
energy requirements on Australian coal and c) because I keep on receiving hefty returns for my investments in mining companies!

I see both you and A/C are celebrating France's approach to save the bee. In case you don't know France's energy needs are fulfilled
by nuclear power at a rate of 75%! I wonder if A/C the ultimate "stop the bomb" figure, promoter of barter systems, paddock scarecrows extraordinaire and return to horse carts primitive
era nostalgic, remembers that he was accusing France of nuclear bombs just a few posts ago before celebrating the bee clad morons bathing in the Art Centre fountain
in his otherwise cute and humorous grade four approach! :D :P

For some more info re: BHP activities and achievements please check here. (It's from a letter to shareholders but I have seen parts of it being published already so I think it's ok to post here)!

https://www.bhp.com/-/media/documents/media/reports-and-presentations/2019/190219_bhpresultsforthehalfyearended31december2018 _presentation.pdf?la=en

(*) they don't only cause frustration and anger to the CBD public transport users but to the whole population of commuters in the metropolitan area because the whole
system is paralyzed due to the fact that 99% of Melbourne's trams pass through the city!

antichrist
13-10-2019, 12:55 PM
The protesters should not be blocking public transport because that is sacred. Cars off the road is best outcome for the environment

MichaelBaron
13-10-2019, 12:56 PM
The best part is..how people claim coal production is ''unprofitable'' and there are better ways...same time want it to be stopped by ''non-market'' forces..same time ignore nuclear power figures...same time ignore the fact that ''green energy'' initiatives worldwide are often subsidized :)

Desmond
13-10-2019, 02:00 PM
The best part is..how people claim coal production is ''unprofitable'' and there are better ways...same time want it to be stopped by ''non-market'' forces..same time ignore nuclear power figures...same time ignore the fact that ''green energy'' initiatives worldwide are often subsidized :)

I notice that you haven't addressed the fact that global fuel subsidies top $5.2 trillion, and $29 billion in Australia alone (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?6637-Man-Made-Climate-Change-Issues-and-debates&p=453382&viewfull=1#post453382). That's 6.5% of global GDP in subsidies.

MichaelBaron
13-10-2019, 02:16 PM
I notice that you haven't addressed the fact that global fuel subsidies top $5.2 trillion, and $29 billion in Australia alone (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?6637-Man-Made-Climate-Change-Issues-and-debates&p=453382&viewfull=1#post453382). That's 6.5% of global GDP in subsidies.

Are the subsidies aimed at making it cheaper for fuel consumers or supporting ''evil capitalists''? Shall I google Australia's ''clean energy'' subsidies''?

Patrick Byrom
13-10-2019, 02:39 PM
The best part is..how people claim coal production is ''unprofitable'' and there are better ways...same time want it to be stopped by ''non-market'' forces..same time ignore nuclear power figures...same time ignore the fact that ''green energy'' initiatives worldwide are often subsidized :)This post doesn't really make sense - what "nuclear power figures"?

MichaelBaron
13-10-2019, 02:51 PM
This post doesn't really make sense - what "nuclear power figures"?

E.gl that in France which is being ''hailed'' 75% of power is nuclear power as pointed out by EG.

MichaelBaron
13-10-2019, 02:52 PM
https://internationalhighlife.com/jamaica-hostel-distributes-free-joints-collect-garbage/?fbclid=IwAR0t4Ynu1FhUfFIntoQy59c_KBfCAlzjJijLU_R_ m1onHcMDuig_Rp5GjUg
:lol:

Patrick Byrom
13-10-2019, 02:53 PM
...
I give you a small example: when BHP merged with Billiton in 2001 the price of my already profitable shares (then $8.30 apiece) almost quadrupled to $33.50!
During almost two decades of seemingly decreasing of production volume, according to your way of thinking, the profits. share market value, and
general yield dividents for shareholders would have dramatically fallen, right? Wrong!! Last Friday evening, at the close it was almost $35.50!BHP doesn't only mine coal, of course - I suspect that the increase in iron ore prices has helped its share price. And thermal coal (which contributes to global warming) is about 1% of its profits, so it's quite likely that BHP will leave this market entirely in the near future.

Patrick Byrom
13-10-2019, 02:58 PM
E.gl that in France which is being ''hailed'' 75% of power is nuclear power as pointed out by EG.But Ian was referring to France banning pesticides to protect bees - nothing to do with nuclear power. And I'm not aware that anyone here objects to nuclear power anyway (I certainly don't). But it's a non-issue in Australia.

Patrick Byrom
13-10-2019, 03:43 PM
Not directly related to climate change. But still a useful reminder that it's almost always safer to trust the scientific consensus, rather than any one scientist (no matter how brilliant). And that even an eminent scientist - Eysenck is probably the most cited psychology researcher of all time - can still publish pseudoscience (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/oct/11/work-of-renowned-uk-psychologist-hans-eysenck-ruled-unsafe).

The work of one of the most famous and influential British psychologists of all time, Hans Eysenck, is under a cloud following an investigation by King’s College London, which has found 26 of his published papers “unsafe”. King’s says the results and conclusions of the papers “were not considered scientifically rigorous” by its committee of inquiry. Prof Sir Robert Lechler, the provost at King’s, has contacted the editors of the 11 journals where the papers appeared, recommending they should be retracted.

ER
13-10-2019, 04:03 PM
BHP doesn't only mine coal, of course - I suspect that the increase in iron ore prices has helped its share price. And thermal coal (which contributes to global warming) is about 1% of its profits, so it's quite likely that BHP will leave this market entirely in the near future.

Please note the words "small example" in the beginning of the BHP related paragraph. It was used as an example of profitability of its products in general. Coal is not referred to at all.
Similarly, the diagrammed position in the beginning of my post has nothing to do with BHP since it is used to refer to coal production and exports.

Ian Murray
13-10-2019, 04:17 PM
BHP doesn't only mine coal, of course - I suspect that the increase in iron ore prices has helped its share price. And thermal coal (which contributes to global warming) is about 1% of its profits, so it's quite likely that BHP will leave this market entirely in the near future.

It's already happening

BHP set to be the next leading miner to exit from coal (https://www.mining-technology.com/news/bhp-next-miner-exit-coal/)
Mining Technology
12.7.19

Ian Murray
13-10-2019, 04:22 PM
E.gl that in France which is being ''hailed'' 75% of power is nuclear power as pointed out by EG.

Nuclear power has no emissions of greenhouse gases so is not contributing to climate change. It does have other issues, which lead to Germany shuttering all its nuclear plants as well as transitioning away from fossil fuels, particularly coal.

ER
13-10-2019, 04:44 PM
It's already happening

ok I repeat so you might get it!


Please note the words "small example" in the beginning of the BHP related paragraph. It was used as an example of profitability of its products in general. Coal is not referred to at all.
Similarly, the diagrammed position in the beginning of my post has nothing to do with BHP since it is used to refer to coal production and exports.

Ian Murray
13-10-2019, 04:49 PM
The best part is..how people claim coal production is ''unprofitable'' and there are better ways...same time want it to be stopped by ''non-market'' forces..same time ignore nuclear power figures...same time ignore the fact that ''green energy'' initiatives worldwide are often subsidized :)

Wind, Solar Are Now The Cheapest Sources Of Power Generation (https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Wind-Solar-Are-Now-The-Cheapest-Sources-Of-Power-Generation.html)
Oil Price
19.11.18


Thanks to falling costs, unsubsidized onshore wind and solar have become the cheapest sources of electricity generation in nearly all major economies in the world, including India and China, according to a new report by Bloomberg NEF.

The comparative costs for power generation—the levelized costs of electricity (LCOE)—showed that onshore wind and solar are the cheapest power generation sources for all major economies except for Japan....

Note: unsubsidised onshore wind and solar

ER
13-10-2019, 05:01 PM
Michael, the guy has lost touch with reality ...


Nuclear power has no emissions of greenhouse gases so is not contributing to climate change. It does have other issues, which lead to Germany shuttering all its nuclear plants as well as transitioning away from fossil fuels, particularly coal.

I wonder if it has ever occurred to him that


As of 2014, there have been more than 100 serious nuclear accidents and incidents from
the use of nuclear power. …


That's not including major cases at Fukushima, Chernobyl and the Three Mile Island!

Obviously not serious enough to be named in his "other issues"! Also, no mention about water pollution
and radioactive waste generation!!

Go figure!

Ian Murray
13-10-2019, 05:06 PM
ok I repeat so you might get it!

Pat and I are talking about BHP

ER
13-10-2019, 05:18 PM
Pat and I are talking about BHP

Patrick was responding to my posting and you butted in uninvited!

Patrick Byrom
13-10-2019, 05:35 PM
Michael, the guy has lost touch with reality ... I wonder if it has ever occurred to him that ...
That's not including major cases at Fukushima, Chernobyl and the Three Mile Island! ... Obviously not serious enough to be named in his "other issues"! Also, no mention about water pollution and radioactive waste generation!! Go figure!
The only prominent advocate of nuclear power here is Capablanca-Fan. For example (just two of many, many posts supporting nuclear power):


Aboriginal Leader Warren Mundine Tells Australians to Grow Up and Go Nuclear (https://stopthesethings.com/2017/03/02/aboriginal-leader-warren-mundine-tells-australians-to-grow-up-and-go-nuclear/) 2 March 2017
… if man-made CO2 emissions really were destroying the planet, then sensible governments would have moved to build nuclear power plants from the moment the Chicken Littles started wailing about the heavens collapsing. The French generate over 75% of their sparks using nukes – and have used nuclear power – without any serious incident – for over 50 years: the first plant kicked off in 1962. ...


When has nuclear waste caused any harm? ...

antichrist
13-10-2019, 06:59 PM
Michael, the guy has lost touch with reality ...



I wonder if it has ever occurred to him that



That's not including major cases at Fukushima, Chernobyl and the Three Mile Island!

Obviously not serious enough to be named in his "other issues"! Also, no mention about water pollution
and radioactive waste generation!!

Go figure!

Ian's "other issues" refer to all the items you have mentioned - they don't have to be individually mentioned. The relevant part is that they don't contribute to greenhouse gases. There are a lot more issues involved in nuke power that are also not really relevant to this thread. Don't pick on Ian - he is still a champ. I think I preferred you in your hippy days.

antichrist
13-10-2019, 07:08 PM
You must understand the value of market stability factor and always examine the relation b/n production and exports.
Of course, the "sluggish" phenomenon in markets can be interpreted in many different or related parameters.
Here, it is the volume of exports as measured by the needs of importing countries for the specific product. It has stabilized, it hasn't decreased.
This is good for my product since it is also good for the national economy, the involved company as well as personal interests for the shareholders.
I give you a small example: when BHP merged with Billiton in 2001 the price of my already profitable shares (then $8.30 apiece) almost quadrupled to $33.50!
During almost two decades of seemingly decreasing of production volume, according to your way of thinking, the profits. share market value, and
general yield dividents for shareholders would have dramatically fallen, right? Wrong!! Last Friday evening, at the close it was almost $35.50!

Don't you ever think that I don't look at the big picture of the ever changing nature of our and the world's economy.
I understand that these days advanced automation as part of transformative technology or modern amazingly effective methods of artificial intelligence play a major role
in the development of new and improvement of our existing ways of production.

I have already planned and/or started investing in many of those categories, mind you that's for fun nothing serious!
That's because my main incentive is not to follow all those simpletons who block the traffic on CBD (*) or stop the poor vendor machine
technician of entering BHP and Rio Tinto's entry to their offices or even following blindfold the red necks who shout gung ho gimme coal! My main incentive is What's in it for Me!

So, the main reason for me to go coal is that a) I know that as far as a source of energy in a country like Australia
is irreplaceable for many years to come, b) I know that some good and reliable customers will keep on satisfying their
energy requirements on Australian coal and c) because I keep on receiving hefty returns for my investments in mining companies!

I see both you and A/C are celebrating France's approach to save the bee. In case you don't know France's energy needs are fulfilled
by nuclear power at a rate of 75%! I wonder if A/C the ultimate "stop the bomb" figure, promoter of barter systems, paddock scarecrows extraordinaire and return to horse carts primitive
era nostalgic, remembers that he was accusing France of nuclear bombs just a few posts ago before celebrating the bee clad morons bathing in the Art Centre fountain
in his otherwise cute and humorous grade four approach! :D :P

For some more info re: BHP activities and achievements please check here. (It's from a letter to shareholders but I have seen parts of it being published already so I think it's ok to post here)!

https://www.bhp.com/-/media/documents/media/reports-and-presentations/2019/190219_bhpresultsforthehalfyearended31december2018 _presentation.pdf?la=en

(*) they don't only cause frustration and anger to the CBD public transport users but to the whole population of commuters in the metropolitan area because the whole
system is paralyzed due to the fact that 99% of Melbourne's trams pass through the city!

A person I know who sold their BHP shares years ago due to their immoral polluting activities in PNG. They were unaware of BHP's dirty record when purchasing.
https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/png-makes-bhp-liable-for-environmental-damage-from-mine

Over fifty years there is a new generation of Frenchie that did not suffer two world wars and occupations but have to face the consequences of climate change - they are certainly busy bees. The EU seems to be preventing major military conflicts. Charles De Gaulle's flashy military suits are now being used on hippy commune scarecrows. There is no more bombing of Greenpeace protest boats and no Jim Cairns taking OZ warships into the bomb zones - those were the days of leadership.

Desmond
13-10-2019, 07:51 PM
Are the subsidies aimed at making it cheaper for fuel consumers or supporting ''evil capitalists''? Shall I google Australia's ''clean energy'' subsidies''?
Feel free to, but I can save you the trouble:

Vast subsidies keeping the fossil fuel industry afloat should be put to better use
(http://theconversation.com/vast-subsidies-keeping-the-fossil-fuel-industry-afloat-should-be-put-to-better-use-119954)

...The IMF estimates that eliminating fossil fuel subsidies could free up US$2.9 trillion in government revenue annually. That amount is more than double the annual investment of US$1.25 trillion the International Energy Agency estimates is needed by 2035 in clean energy and energy efficiency to stop the world from warming by 2°C.

MichaelBaron
14-10-2019, 12:06 AM
I have already suggested earlier in the thread how good it would be to remove ALL THE SUBSIDIES FOR ALL~
And let the better/more economical solution win...due to natural market forces prevailing...
This would certainly help the world more than some of the Rebellion-style antiques.

ER
14-10-2019, 04:11 AM
Ian's "other issues" refer to all the items you have mentioned

frogshit! he presented nuclear as innocent and angelic and godsent! :P


Don't pick on Ian - he is still a champ.

My foot he is a champ! He can't even read a diagram correctly - confused its thematic reference too!
Plus he called me a troll the other day - no that I am not!
I told you regain control of the climate argument! Your sidekicks make the whole thing sound dreadfully boring!
(You are full of shit too, but at least I am having a laugh reading your stuff! :D)


I think I preferred you in your hippy days.

That's unfair, I remember trying to get a snooze at Hyde Park and that stupid Ibis (aus. bin chicken) scored a bulls eye direct hit right in the hole of my guitar with half a kg of shit!
and what about the day when that "we want Fraser" gorilla chased me down from Museum to St James Station along Elizabeth St to beat the shit out of me!
He called me a f.... commo hippy poofter too! No class!

Ian Murray
14-10-2019, 08:22 AM
3917

Desmond
14-10-2019, 08:37 AM
I have already suggested earlier in the thread how good it would be to remove ALL THE SUBSIDIES FOR ALL~
And let the better/more economical solution win...due to natural market forces prevailing...
This would certainly help the world more than some of the Rebellion-style antiques.So obviously it is rather silly to crow about how profitable the companies are when they a receiving such mind boggling subsidies.
If just fraction of the subsidies were used to transition to renewable energy, the climate change problem would be largely solved.

MichaelBaron
14-10-2019, 09:03 PM
So obviously it is rather silly to crow about how profitable the companies are when they a receiving such mind boggling subsidies.
If just fraction of the subsidies were used to transition to renewable energy, the climate change problem would be largely solved.

So would you support letting the consumers choose? Or do they need to go through the ongoing harassment and disruptions to their daily activities based on their consumption choices?

Capablanca-Fan
15-10-2019, 12:45 AM
It is no accident that Time (http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/printout/0,8816,944914,00.html)and Newsweek (http://www.denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf)published stories about a coming Ice Age in the mid 1970s. They were reporting on what was being claimed. And this was long before the Internet, so these publications were much more influential than they are now.

The 1970s Global Cooling Consensus was not a Myth (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/11/19/the-1970s-global-cooling-consensus-was-not-a-myth)
Guest Blogger / 19 November 2018
[update, reference sheet is now linked at the bottom of post]

By Angus McFarlane,
There was an overwhelming scientific consensus in the 1970s that the Earth was heading into a period of significant cooling. The possibility of anthropogenic warming was relegated to a minority of the papers in the peer-reviewed literature.

Introduction

Whether or not there was a global cooling consensus in the 1970s is important in climate science because, if there were a cooling consensus (which subsequently proved to be wrong) then it would question the legitimacy of consensus in science. In particular, the validity of the 93% consensus on global warming alleged by Cook et al (2103) would be implausible. That is, if consensus climate scientists were wrong in the 1970s then they could be wrong now.

Purpose of Review

It is not the purpose of this review to question the rights or wrongs of the methodology of the 93% consensus. For-and-against arguments are presented in several peer-reviewed papers and non-peer-reviewed weblogs. The purpose of this review is to establish if there were a consensus in the 1970s and, if so, was this consensus cooling or warming?

“A review of the climate science literature of the 1965-1979 period is presented and it is shown that there *was* an overwhelming scientific consensus for climate *cooling* (typically, 65% for the whole period) ***but greatly outnumbering the warming papers by more than 5-to-1 during the 1968–1976 period***, when there were 85% cooling papers compared with 15% warming.

It is evident that the conclusion of the PCF-08 paper, The Myth of the 1970s Global Cooling Scientific Consensus, is incorrect. The current review shows the opposite conclusion to be more accurate. Namely, the 1970s global cooling consensus was not a myth – the overwhelming scientific consensus was for climate cooling.

It appears that the PCF-08 authors have committed the transgression of which they accuse others; namely, “selectively misreading the texts” of the climate science literature from 1965 to 1979. The PCF-08 authors appear to have done this by neglecting the large number of peer-reviewed papers that were pro-cooling.

I find it very surprising that PCF-08 only uncovered 7 cooling papers and did not uncover the 86 cooling papers in major scientific journals, such as, Journal of American Meteorological Society, Nature, Science, Quaternary Research and similar scientific papers that they reviewed. For example, PCF-08 only found 1 paper in Quaternary Research, namely the warming paper by Mitchell (1976), however, this review found 19 additional papers in that journal, comprising 15 cooling, 3 neutral and 1 warming.”

Ian Murray
15-10-2019, 09:43 AM
It is no accident that Time (http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/printout/0,8816,944914,00.html)and Newsweek (http://www.denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf)published stories about a coming Ice Age in the mid 1970s. They were reporting on what was being claimed. And this was long before the Internet, so these publications were much more influential than they are now....

It's all academic now but at the time, when climate science was in its infancy compared with today, it was known that man-made aerosols injected into the atmosphere (e.g. from smokestacks and tailpipes) had a net cooling effect, and a drop of 5° would precipitate another glacial period. That hasn't changed, but we now know that global warming due to greenhouse gases outweighs the cooling. The proof is in the pudding - the planet is getting hotter not colder.


...Models estimate that aerosols have had a cooling effect that has counteracted about half of the warming caused by the build-up of greenhouse gases since the 1880s. However, unlike many greenhouse gases, aerosols are not distributed evenly around the planet, so their impacts are most strongly felt on a regional scale.

Despite considerable advances in recent decades, estimating the direct climate impacts of aerosols remains an immature science. Of the 25 climate models considered by the Fourth Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), only a handful considered the direct effects of aerosol types other than sulfates....

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/Aerosols/page3.php

Ian Murray
15-10-2019, 09:59 AM
So would you support letting the consumers choose? Or do they need to go through the ongoing harassment and disruptions to their daily activities based on their consumption choices?

They have chosen, but the federal government won't listed to them - some prodding is needed

84% of Australians support the statement that “the government should focus on renewables, even if this means we may need to invest more in infrastructure to make the system more reliable”
https://theconversation.com/lowy-institute-poll-shows-australians-support-for-climate-action-at-its-highest-level-in-a-decade-98625 21.6.18

Capablanca-Fan
15-10-2019, 11:48 AM
I have already suggested earlier in the thread how good it would be to remove ALL THE SUBSIDIES FOR ALL~
And let the better/more economical solution win...due to natural market forces prevailing...
This would certainly help the world more than some of the Rebellion-style antiques.

That is good sense.

Ian Murray
15-10-2019, 12:49 PM
That is good sense.

Great idea, but it takes a brave government to try to take subsidies away from fossil fuel industries. Good luck!

Patrick Byrom
15-10-2019, 01:06 PM
It's all academic now ... Exactly. I don't understand the point of even raising this issue. So forty years ago, some scientists thought for a few years that global cooling would be a problem, but for the last forty years there has been a clear consensus (supported by increasing evidence) that global heating is the issue. That is how science works.

Desmond
15-10-2019, 01:14 PM
That is good sense.

Would you agree that instead of subsidising $2 to fossil fuels, to subsidise $1 to renewables would be a step in the right direction?

Ian Murray
15-10-2019, 01:15 PM
Great idea, but it takes a brave government to try to take subsidies away from fossil fuel industries. Good luck!

But wait there's more!

Rise of renewables may see off oil firms decades earlier than they think (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/14/rise-renewables-oil-firms-decades-earlier-think?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0d1YXJkaWFuVG9kYXlBVVM tMTkxMDE1&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayAUS&CMP=GTAU_email)
The Guardian
15.10.19

The world’s rising reliance on fossil fuels may come to an end decades earlier than the most polluting companies predict, offering early signs of hope in the global battle to tackle the climate crisis.

The climate green shoots have emerged amid a renewable energy revolution that promises an end to the rising demand for oil and coal in the 2020s, before the fossil fuels face a terminal decline.

The looming fossil fuel peak is expected to emerge decades ahead of forecasts from oil and mining companies, which are betting that demand for polluting energy will rise until the 2040s.

But energy experts are adjusting their forecasts as clean energy technologies, including wind and solar power, emerge faster than predicted and at costs that pose a direct threat to coal-fired electricity and combustion-engine vehicles....

MichaelBaron
15-10-2019, 04:23 PM
But wait there's more!

Rise of renewables may see off oil firms decades earlier than they think (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/14/rise-renewables-oil-firms-decades-earlier-think?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0d1YXJkaWFuVG9kYXlBVVM tMTkxMDE1&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayAUS&CMP=GTAU_email)
The Guardian
15.10.19

The world’s rising reliance on fossil fuels may come to an end decades earlier than the most polluting companies predict, offering early signs of hope in the global battle to tackle the climate crisis.

The climate green shoots have emerged amid a renewable energy revolution that promises an end to the rising demand for oil and coal in the 2020s, before the fossil fuels face a terminal decline.

The looming fossil fuel peak is expected to emerge decades ahead of forecasts from oil and mining companies, which are betting that demand for polluting energy will rise until the 2040s.

But energy experts are adjusting their forecasts as clean energy technologies, including wind and solar power, emerge faster than predicted and at costs that pose a direct threat to coal-fired electricity and combustion-engine vehicles....

I do not worry about the oil firms...so if they are dismissed due to market forces - off they go!

Desmond
15-10-2019, 04:54 PM
I do not worry about the oil firms...so if they are dismissed due to market forces - off they go!
But this is my point: they are not dismissed due to market forces because they are subsidised up the wazoo.

Capablanca-Fan
16-10-2019, 06:06 AM
But this is my point: they are not dismissed due to market forces because they are subsidised up the wazoo.

But our point is that neither MB nor object if fossil fuels become obsolete in fair competition. Subsidies are a problem whether for fossil fuels or the half-billion for Solyndra. At present, the renewable fuels mandate has made electricity more expensive not less, so market forces are not working here.

Desmond
16-10-2019, 08:11 AM
But our point is that neither MB nor object if fossil fuels become obsolete in fair competition. You say that but your other commentary is inconsistent. It isn't a fair competition. The fossil fuel companies have over a hundred years of incumbency, are heavily entrenched with powerful lobby groups, and receive gigantic subsidies.


Subsidies are a problem whether for fossil fuels or the half-billion for Solyndra. There are very different things going on here. One the one hand we have mature, entrenched industries that receive massive subsidies. That should not happen. These companies should stand or fall as per the market. If they can be profitable in their own right - great! - but they must not lock up taxpayer dollars to keep profits and crowd out other companies that could stand on their own.

On the other hand, I can see a case for subsidies to help start up fledgling industries that will become profitable on their own terms, and then reduce and ultimately remove the subsidies, over time.


At present, the renewable fuels mandate has made electricity more expensive not less, so market forces are not working here.If the cost of the polution caused by the fuel has not been priced in, then it is falsely underpriced. And again, don't talk to me about market forces while taking trillions of dollars in subsidies.

Patrick Byrom
16-10-2019, 09:56 AM
also …
I never doubted his champ status in chess terms, he actually challenged successfully the Tassie chess status quo.
I have declared that publicly in another social media outlet (certainly not in the other place).
...
It's in arguments here that I "picked on him", definitely not on a larger scale than he "picked on me"!I think you've got the wrong Ian (Ian Murray is from Qld) :)

ER
16-10-2019, 10:06 AM
I think you've got the wrong Ian (Ian Murray is from Qld) :)

You are correct and thanks! I remove the post with apologies to both Ians!

Ian Murray
16-10-2019, 11:22 AM
You say that but your other commentary is inconsistent. It isn't a fair competition. The fossil fuel companies have over a hundred years of incumbency, are heavily entrenched with powerful lobby groups, and receive gigantic subsidies.

There are very different things going on here. One the one hand we have mature, entrenched industries that receive massive subsidies. That should not happen. These companies should stand or fall as per the market. If they can be profitable in their own right - great! - but they must not lock up taxpayer dollars to keep profits and crowd out other companies that could stand on their own.

On the other hand, I can see a case for subsidies to help start up fledgling industries that will become profitable on their own terms, and then reduce and ultimately remove the subsidies, over time.

If the cost of the polution caused by the fuel has not been priced in, then it is falsely underpriced. And again, don't talk to me about market forces while taking trillions of dollars in subsidies.

Quite so. Fossil fuel subsidies are set in stone, while our renewable subsidies have sunset clauses. The Small-scale Renewable Energy Scheme (http://www.cleanenergyregulator.gov.au/RET/About-the-Renewable-Energy-Target/How-the-scheme-works/Small-scale-Renewable-Energy-Scheme) finishes in 2030, while the Large-scale Renewable Energy Target (http://www.cleanenergyregulator.gov.au/About/Pages/Accountability%20and%20reporting/Administrative%20Reports/The%20Renewable%20Energy%20Target%202018%20Adminis trative%20Report/Annual-statement.aspx) is capped at 33 GW by 2020 (now reached).

MichaelBaron
17-10-2019, 01:23 AM
You say that but your other commentary is inconsistent. It isn't a fair competition. The fossil fuel companies have over a hundred years of incumbency, are heavily entrenched with powerful lobby groups, and receive gigantic subsidies.

There are very different things going on here. One the one hand we have mature, entrenched industries that receive massive subsidies. That should not happen. These companies should stand or fall as per the market. If they can be profitable in their own right - great! - but they must not lock up taxpayer dollars to keep profits and crowd out other companies that could stand on their own.

On the other hand, I can see a case for subsidies to help start up fledgling industries that will become profitable on their own terms, and then reduce and ultimately remove the subsidies, over time.

If the cost of the polution caused by the fuel has not been priced in, then it is falsely underpriced. And again, don't talk to me about market forces while taking trillions of dollars in subsidies.

But are you saying that you would support fair competition? :)
Or if its ''fair'' it would still not be ''good enough''
I support fair competition, do you? if yes, we agree!

Desmond
17-10-2019, 07:41 AM
But are you saying that you would support fair competition? :)
Or if its ''fair'' it would still not be ''good enough''
I support fair competition, do you? if yes, we agree!

Of course, that's the point!

For a fair competetion, we need to have the total cost of the energy generation paid by the energy generator, including the polution it causes (See below video from free market advocate Milton Friedman 40 years ago).
The other thing we need for a fair competition is not for some of the competitiors to be subsidised to the tune of trillions of dollars.

I am 100% OK if the fossil fuel companies are the more economical. If they can produce their energy, and pay to offset the carbon they produce, without the ridiculous subsidies they have for an established industry, while still being cheaper than renewables, then they will win. I am 100% OK with this, because it would solve the global warming problem too - through carbon capture, or whatever other mechanism.

Fix those 2 things, and let's see who is the winner in the fair competition.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YGfwSvLkC0

ER
17-10-2019, 08:05 AM
Eat your heart out :) She is also favourite to win the Nobel Peace Prize

while eating my heart out, I read some news which you might have missed …


Some (*) believed she was a favourite to win the Nobel Peace Prize, announced on Friday, for her effort to get young people worldwide to fight climate change.

But instead, that award went to Ethiopian Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed for his work to bring peace to that region of Africa.

Head of the Peace Research Institute Oslo, Henrik Urdal, omitted Ms Thunberg from the Nobel Peace Prize shortlist he publishes.

He explained his decision to The Washington Post, saying there "isn't scientific consensus that there is a linear relationship between climate change — or resource scarcity, more broadly — and armed conflict."


(*) we have a couple of them here :D :P

3920

antichrist
17-10-2019, 09:09 AM
Quite so. Fossil fuel subsidies are set in stone, while our renewable subsidies have sunset clauses. The Small-scale Renewable Energy Scheme (http://www.cleanenergyregulator.gov.au/RET/About-the-Renewable-Energy-Target/How-the-scheme-works/Small-scale-Renewable-Energy-Scheme) finishes in 2030, while the Large-scale Renewable Energy Target (http://www.cleanenergyregulator.gov.au/About/Pages/Accountability%20and%20reporting/Administrative%20Reports/The%20Renewable%20Energy%20Target%202018%20Adminis trative%20Report/Annual-statement.aspx) is capped at 33 GW by 2020 (now reached).

Did someone have a sense of humour imposing a sunset clause on subsidies for solar energy - did they think the sun was going stop rising in the morning or the Earth stop spinning?

antichrist
17-10-2019, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by ER
You must understand the value of market stability factor and always examine the relation b/n production and exports.
Of course, the "sluggish" phenomenon in markets can be interpreted in many different or related parameters.
Here, it is the volume of exports as measured by the needs of importing countries for the specific product. It has stabilized, it hasn't decreased.
This is good for my product since it is also good for the national economy, the involved company as well as personal interests for the shareholders.
I give you a small example: when BHP merged with Billiton in 2001 the price of my already profitable shares (then $8.30 apiece) almost quadrupled to $33.50!
During almost two decades of seemingly decreasing of production volume, according to your way of thinking, the profits. share market value, and
general yield dividends for shareholders would have dramatically fallen, right? Wrong!! Last Friday evening, at the close it was almost $35.50!


AC:
Buy those BHP shares did dip to half of $35.50 about 7 years ago (guessing) whereas real estate stayed REAL in Byron anyway. Aren't BHP in prior days notorious for lousy dividends? I am sure a lot of people have bad memories of BHP - those who bought at about $47. When they sank to about $18 - that is $30 less they would have pulling their teeth out. Whereas except for the Great Depression this has never occurred in real estate to that extent that I am aware of. Imagine queueing up for welfare because they blew their inheritance on BHP shares. Lebs would not do that.

If those shareholders would have given their money away instead they could not have gotten welfare but lose it on a bad share bet and you can ride the welfare nag and get an inside running. The only topic FM Baron and I agree upon.

Ian Murray
17-10-2019, 03:16 PM
while eating my heart out, I read some news which you might have missed …


What took you so long :) That was last Friday's news

ER
17-10-2019, 03:48 PM
What took you so long :) That was last Friday's news

I know, I 've got a big heart! :D

Ian Murray
17-10-2019, 04:02 PM
Of course, that's the point!

For a fair competetion, we need to have the total cost of the energy generation paid by the energy generator, including the polution it causes (See below video from free market advocate Milton Friedman 40 years ago).
The other thing we need for a fair competition is not for some of the competitiors to be subsidised to the tune of trillions of dollars.

I am 100% OK if the fossil fuel companies are the more economical. If they can produce their energy, and pay to offset the carbon they produce, without the ridiculous subsidies they have for an established industry, while still being cheaper than renewables, then they will win. I am 100% OK with this, because it would solve the global warming problem too - through carbon capture, or whatever other mechanism.

Fix those 2 things, and let's see who is the winner in the fair competition.

Apart from the subsidies, the external costs of fossil fuel industries are egregious

The Hidden Costs of Fossil Fuels (https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/hidden-costs-fossil-fuels)

...Burning coal, oil, and natural gas has serious and long-standing negative impacts on public health, local communities and ecosystems, and the global climate. Yet the majority of fossil fuel impacts are far removed from the fuels and electricity we purchase, hidden within public and private health expenditures, military budgets, emergency relief funds, and the degradation of sensitive ecosystems. We don’t pay for the cost of cancer, or the loss of fragile wetlands, when we pay our electricity bill—but the costs are real.

Renewable energy—such as wind and solar power—carries far fewer negative impacts at increasingly competitive prices. The Union of Concerned Scientists has worked for decades on transforming the electricity and transportation sectors, and is committed to policies and practices that encourage clean energy.

antichrist
17-10-2019, 07:40 PM
Apart from the subsidies, the external costs of fossil fuel industries are egregious

The Hidden Costs of Fossil Fuels (https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/hidden-costs-fossil-fuels)

...Burning coal, oil, and natural gas has serious and long-standing negative impacts on public health, local communities and ecosystems, and the global climate. Yet the majority of fossil fuel impacts are far removed from the fuels and electricity we purchase, hidden within public and private health expenditures, military budgets, emergency relief funds, and the degradation of sensitive ecosystems. We don’t pay for the cost of cancer, or the loss of fragile wetlands, when we pay our electricity bill—but the costs are real.

Renewable energy—such as wind and solar power—carries far fewer negative impacts at increasingly competitive prices. The Union of Concerned Scientists has worked for decades on transforming the electricity and transportation sectors, and is committed to policies and practices that encourage clean energy.

That Union of Concerned Scientists used to give scientific talks for anti-nuke public meetings I used to organise in the seventies. They did not take a public stance but provided the scientific detail. Were great people.

Ian Murray
17-10-2019, 09:31 PM
That Union of Concerned Scientists used to give scientific talks for anti-nuke public meetings I used to organise in the seventies. They did not take a public stance but provided the scientific detail. Were great people.

They have long-standing nuclear policies, but I didn't know there was an Australian chapter

https://www.ucsusa.org/energy/nuclear-power
https://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear-weapons

antichrist
17-10-2019, 10:02 PM
They have long-standing nuclear policies, but I didn't know there was an Australian chapter

https://www.ucsusa.org/energy/nuclear-power
https://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear-weapons

I know they were active in Uni of Sydney, I think due to the physics dept there. They would counter the PR of (now) Sir Earnest Tritteron who was a brilliant scientific and pro-nuke guy who had worked on the Manhatton Project. The anti nuke mob won that episode in that there were no nuke power plants built in Oz, they were proposed a few times, at Jarvis Bay was one site. I think it was a compromise ploy by pro uranium export govts to forego the plants here to avoid the strong re-action but continue through with the exports in that none of the waste would be in Oz.

MichaelBaron
18-10-2019, 12:21 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10153612/extinction-rebellion-jubilee-line-tube/

Giving those idiots some of their own medicine - looks like some citizens had enough!

Desmond
18-10-2019, 07:54 AM
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10153612/extinction-rebellion-jubilee-line-tube/

Giving those idiots some of their own medicine - looks like some citizens had enough!

So did you manage to give any thought to whether you should switch to a fair competition stance, viz #5110?

Ian Murray
18-10-2019, 08:04 AM
''some of their own medicine"

Violence vs non-violence?

ER
18-10-2019, 08:46 AM
Violence vs non-violence?

Distressing scenes indeed, however, one must bear in mind that

1) Protesters do not win any public support by their illegal actions

2) people's patience has its limits.

I really hope we won't witness scenes like these in Australia!

Encouraging to see that even amongst XR supporters there's an overwhelming
disapproval motion of the current methods followed by the movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/17/london-tube-protest-divides-extinction-rebellion

Ian Murray
18-10-2019, 09:02 AM
Extinction Rebellion has built up so much goodwill. It mustn’t throw that away (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/17/extinction-rebellion-canning-town-well-off-people?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0Jlc3RPZkd1YXJkaWFuT3 BpbmlvblVTLTE5MTAxNw%3D%3D&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=BestOfGuardianOpinionUS&CMP=opinionus_email)
The Guardian
18.10.19

...The deeper problem is a reluctance to confront the painful human consequences of Extinction Rebellion’s uncompromising demand that Britain achieve net-zero emissions by 2025 – not 2050 for the UK overall and 2045 for Scotland as the government advisory body the Committee on Climate Change (CCC) report recommended – and the thorny questions raised about public consent. The climate crisis frightens me as much as it should frighten anyone, and Extinction Rebellion deserves huge credit for popularising the argument. But alarm bells ring when I see one of their spokespeople blithely telling the TV cameras that it doesn’t matter if their demands are practical; all that matters is that they’re met.

The thing that distinguishes Extinction Rebellion from more established green movements is that it wasn’t founded to achieve change by winning over public opinion en masse, and thus prodding governments to act. Instead it’s founded on the idea that gradualism doesn’t work, while a critical mass willing to make life difficult for others can bring down even mighty systems....

MichaelBaron
18-10-2019, 04:25 PM
Violence vs non-violence?

Non-violence? blocking public transport? trespassing? obstructing access?

MichaelBaron
18-10-2019, 04:27 PM
Extinction Rebellion has built up so much goodwill. It mustn’t throw that away (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/17/extinction-rebellion-canning-town-well-off-people?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX0Jlc3RPZkd1YXJkaWFuT3 BpbmlvblVTLTE5MTAxNw%3D%3D&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=BestOfGuardianOpinionUS&CMP=opinionus_email)
The Guardian
18.10.19

...The deeper problem is a reluctance to confront the painful human consequences of Extinction Rebellion’s uncompromising demand that Britain achieve net-zero emissions by 2025 – not 2050 for the UK overall and 2045 for Scotland as the government advisory body the Committee on Climate Change (CCC) report recommended – and the thorny questions raised about public consent. The climate crisis frightens me as much as it should frighten anyone, and Extinction Rebellion deserves huge credit for popularising the argument. But alarm bells ring when I see one of their spokespeople blithely telling the TV cameras that it doesn’t matter if their demands are practical; all that matters is that they’re met.

The thing that distinguishes Extinction Rebellion from more established green movements is that it wasn’t founded to achieve change by winning over public opinion en masse, and thus prodding governments to act. Instead it’s founded on the idea that gradualism doesn’t work, while a critical mass willing to make life difficult for others can bring down even mighty systems....

Good point about ''practicality'' of the demand. and one point to be added - suddenly the Extinction Rebellion may realize (I hope they will) that they are fighting NOT only the ''establishment'' but also the ''people''!

Ian Murray
18-10-2019, 05:12 PM
Non-violence? blocking public transport? trespassing? obstructing access?

No violence involved in any of those, just civil disobedience. Something Gandhi used to gain independence for India.

Ian Murray
18-10-2019, 06:07 PM
Distressing scenes indeed, however, one must bear in mind that

1) Protesters do not win any public support by their illegal actions

2) people's patience has its limits.

So civil disobedience protesters are doomed to failure and oblivion, like the suffragettes, Gandhi's salt march, the Vietnam War moratorium, Eureka Stockade, poll tax revolt, anti-apartheid protests, the first organised labour strikes

antichrist
18-10-2019, 06:42 PM
So civil disobedience protesters are doomed to failure and oblivion, like the suffragettes, Gandhi's salt march, the Vietnam War moratorium, Eureka Stockade, poll tax revolt, anti-apartheid protests, the first organised labour strikes

Great roll call but you omitted the guy who nailed his objections on the door of Wittenberg Cathedral and the wives who "drew the curtains" until their husband stopped fighting The Thirty Years War.

ER
18-10-2019, 06:52 PM
So civil disobedience protesters are doomed to failure and oblivion, like the suffragettes, Gandhi's salt march, the Vietnam War moratorium, Eureka Stockade, poll tax revolt, anti-apartheid protests, the first organised labour strikes

Putting the exstinkers on the same category with all those champions of civil movements is rather blasphemous.
I take your previous post with a pinch of salt!

Ian Murray
18-10-2019, 07:43 PM
Putting the exstinkers on the same category with all those champions of civil movements is rather blasphemous.
I take your previous post with a pinch of salt!

There is no more critical issue than the global catastrophe we are facing unless we act now.

MichaelBaron
19-10-2019, 01:15 AM
There is no more critical issue than the global catastrophe we are facing unless we act now.

Nothing stopped them acting in a civilised manner. Some people keeping themselves occupied...but at the expense of disturbing lives of others.

antichrist
19-10-2019, 02:23 AM
Nothing stopped them acting in a civilised manner. Some people keeping themselves occupied...but at the expense of disturbing lives of others.

But the continuing polluting activities of those being disturbed deserves the continuing occupation.

Ian Murray
19-10-2019, 06:56 AM
Nothing stopped them acting in a civilised manner. Some people keeping themselves occupied...but at the expense of disturbing lives of others.

The whole point of protesting is to disrupt the status quo

ER
19-10-2019, 08:35 AM
The whole point of protesting is to disrupt the status quo

The status quo - democracy and common interest in this case, have ways and numbers to put aside (or inside) various anti-social pests as in the case of this extinker

3923

The only people who are suffering disruptions are commuters and the general public having to face exstinker morons
and as in this case have to resort to some rather unorthodox but effective methods to teach them a lesson! I sincerely hope
he wasn't seriously hurt!


https://twitter.com/i/status/1184713537232556032

but I believe the biggest blow to this stupid, unnecessary and illegal methods of protest
comes from their own ...


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/17/london-tube-protest-divides-extinction-rebellion

Kevin Bonham
19-10-2019, 10:26 AM
but I believe the biggest blow to this stupid, unnecessary and illegal methods of protest
comes from their own ...


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/17/london-tube-protest-divides-extinction-rebellion

Interesting, but I'd like to know how it was ensured that only genuine members of the movement voted in the "poll".


More than 3,700 people responded to an online poll circulated on the group’s social media networks with 72% saying they were opposed to the action “no matter how it is done”.

It is quite common for opt-in polls posted on Facebook pages and the like to be stacked by opponents seeking to cause embarrassment.

Blunderbuss
19-10-2019, 12:22 PM
Interesting, but I'd like to know how it was ensured that only genuine members of the movement voted in the "poll".

If it was done on Facebook it would have been a closed invite only group ...

3924

Also less than 4000 people voted which I would guess is only a fraction of people signed up in the UK. I'm sure many more would have voted on an open social media page.

Kevin Bonham
19-10-2019, 12:26 PM
Because it wasn't done on Facebook but a closed invite only channel...

Ta.

Blunderbuss
19-10-2019, 01:29 PM
Ketan Joshi has a very good thread on twitter about the Extinction Rebellion tube station protest - https://twitter.com/KetanJ0/status/1185157690978455552 (https://twitter.com/KetanJ0/status/1185157690978455552)

It concludes with: -


If those people doing the punching had any doubts about whether there was a social licence for bashing climate protesters, they can log on to Twitter or Facebook and see many, many thousands of messages, from regular people, leaders and journalists, celebrating their actions.

This cycle is self-catalysing. The curve of words, behaviours and consequences all shifts in unison towards a more horrible outcome

Do two people deserve to be brutally attacked because they didn't think a climate protest through? The consensus among so many is 'yes, repeatedly'

This is a new danger for XR protesters, and even climate activists in general. It is so tragic that so many are now openly very happy to declare that physical beatings as retribution for disruption of commutes are now totally okay.

It is a very, very dark place to be.

Blunderbuss
19-10-2019, 02:48 PM
A game I played against Charlie Chadwick on Parliament Lawns Hobart Thursday afternoon. I can't remember the opening but here is the position and moves up until we agreed a draw. We had to cut the game short as the XR action to block the Parliament car park started.

Chadwick v Shepherd



1. Ne5 Qf6 2. Qf3 Qxf3 3. gxf3 Ng5 4. f4 Bxe5 5. fxe5 Nf3+ 6. Ke2 Nh4 7. Ba3 f6
8. exf6 gxf6 9. c4 Kf7 10. cxd5 cxd5 11. Rac1 Rac8 12. Rxc8 Rxc8 13. Rc1 Nb6

Charlie and I joked about starting an XR Chess players Affinity Group. Not a bad idea!

Patrick Byrom
19-10-2019, 02:57 PM
Nothing stopped them acting in a civilised manner. Some people keeping themselves occupied...but at the expense of disturbing lives of others.So you are opposed to all protests that disturb other people? You would have hated Martin Luther King and Ghandi!

Ian Murray
19-10-2019, 03:30 PM
So you are opposed to all protests that disturb other people? You would have hated Martin Luther King and Ghandi!

Let alone the local issues that galvanised thousands, like:-

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/remembering-brisbanes-big-march--its-still-a-simple-case-of-freedom,10695

https://www.news.com.au/as-mandela-served-time-in-prison-it-took-sporting-outrage-to-awaken-world-to-apartheid/news-story/2838297c679fc28577ceb53dfe50e98b

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/flashback-vietnam-war-protests-rock-melbourne-20180704-p4zpdm.html

MichaelBaron
19-10-2019, 08:58 PM
The whole point of protesting is to disrupt the status quo

The whole point of protesting is to be a nuisance in other words...
who stops them promoting their values by electing government that they believe supports the cause. If majority does not support, they should show respect... Not that they know what respect is.

MichaelBaron
19-10-2019, 09:18 PM
Ketan Joshi has a very good thread on twitter about the Extinction Rebellion tube station protest - https://twitter.com/KetanJ0/status/1185157690978455552 (https://twitter.com/KetanJ0/status/1185157690978455552)

It concludes with: -


If those people doing the punching had any doubts about whether there was a social licence for bashing climate protesters, they can log on to Twitter or Facebook and see many, many thousands of messages, from regular people, leaders and journalists, celebrating their actions.

This cycle is self-catalysing. The curve of words, behaviours and consequences all shifts in unison towards a more horrible outcome

Do two people deserve to be brutally attacked because they didn't think a climate protest through? The consensus among so many is 'yes, repeatedly'

This is a new danger for XR protesters, and even climate activists in general. It is so tragic that so many are now openly very happy to declare that physical beatings as retribution for disruption of commutes are now totally okay.

It is a very, very dark place to be.

And who gave the protesters social license to disrupt lives of others?
Re beating not being okay...where it police to stop the unlawful interruptions?
should police take them away, there would be no beatings but they were first to start getting away with unlawful behaviour.

Ian Murray
19-10-2019, 09:51 PM
The whole point of protesting is to be a nuisance in other words...
who stops them promoting their values by electing government that they believe supports the cause. If majority does not support, they should show respect... Not that they know what respect is.

Everyone has the right to peaceful (i.e. non-violent) protest

Right to freedom of assembly and association (https://www.ag.gov.au/RightsAndProtections/HumanRights/Human-rights-scrutiny/PublicSectorGuidanceSheets/Pages/Righttofreedomofassemblyandassociation.aspx)

Patrick Byrom
19-10-2019, 09:52 PM
The whole point of protesting is to be a nuisance in other words... who stops them promoting their values by electing government that they believe supports the cause. If majority does not support, they should show respect... Not that they know what respect is.Are you saying that civil rights activists in the US shouldn't have protested against segregation? Is this what you teach your students - ignore your conscience and just do what the government tells you?

Patrick Byrom
19-10-2019, 09:54 PM
And who gave the protesters social license to disrupt lives of others? Re beating not being okay...where it police to stop the unlawful interruptions?
should police take them away, there would be no beatings but they were first to start getting away with unlawful behaviour.There's an obvious difference between blocking traffic and assaulting someone - both are illegal, but assault is definitely a much more serious crime.

Capablanca-Fan
19-10-2019, 11:02 PM
There's an obvious difference between blocking traffic and assaulting someone - both are illegal, but assault is definitely a much more serious crime.

Normally yes, but what if the traffic includes an ambulance taking a patient urgently to hospital, or police trying to respond to a vicious assault?

Capablanca-Fan
19-10-2019, 11:30 PM
The status quo - democracy and common interest in this case, have ways and numbers to put aside (or inside) various anti-social pests as in the case of this extinker

3923

The only people who are suffering disruptions are commuters and the general public having to face exstinker morons
and as in this case have to resort to some rather unorthodox but effective methods to teach them a lesson! I sincerely hope
he wasn't seriously hurt!


https://twitter.com/i/status/1184713537232556032

but I believe the biggest blow to this stupid, unnecessary and illegal methods of protest
comes from their own ...


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/17/london-tube-protest-divides-extinction-rebellion

Good information, thanks.

If people are being disrupted by protests, then they have every right to end this disruption. And what an irony, disrupting the ostensibly greener public transport system. The rent-a-mob just like to be a nuisance for the sake of being a nuisance.

Capablanca-Fan
20-10-2019, 03:21 AM
Some of the most vocal alarmists who certainly don't act like there is a problem:


Private-jet travel skyrockets among climate change-obsessed 2020 Dems (https://www.wnd.com/2019/10/private-jet-travel-skyrockets-among-climate-change-obsessed-2020-democrats)
Andrew J. Sciascia, Western Journal, 18 Oct 2019

According to The Hill, Democratic candidates collectively spent about $680,000 worth of campaign donations traveling the country by private jet in the second quarter of fiscal year 2019.

In the past three months, that spending has tripled to nearly $2.2 million.

In other words, the supposedly climate-conscious Democrats managed to increase their spending on gas-guzzling private jet travel by more than 220 percent.

Note that this is no reflection on people like Ian Murray who clearly practise what they preach.

Ian Murray
20-10-2019, 09:48 AM
Normally yes, but what if the traffic includes an ambulance taking a patient urgently to hospital, or police trying to respond to a vicious assault?

Realistically, if the northbound traffic lanes are blocked due to a protest, then the southbound lanes are empty and available for use by emergency vehicles

ER
20-10-2019, 10:05 AM
Realistically, if the northbound traffic lanes are blocked due to a protest, then the southbound lanes are empty and available for use by emergency vehicles

Sound thought, however, you should suggest that to ex stinkers and vegan nuts in Melbourne when they blocked both lanes particularly in intersections, completely paralyzing public transport and trafic in general.
Mind you, that kind of stupid, unnecessary and fascistic kind of action blocks trams 99.9% of which pass through CBD, in the whole city causing long (and cursing) waiting lines in inner city, suburban and metropolitan areas!
There's nothing "realistic" in this kind of illegal action! It has to stop, (thanks to our police force and indignant public, it has already began fading away!
I honestly, do not like to see ugly scenes like those in St Kilda where we (the citizens) had to take the law in our hands to give the black gangs a lesson they will never forget!

MichaelBaron
20-10-2019, 12:11 PM
Realistically, if the northbound traffic lanes are blocked due to a protest, then the southbound lanes are empty and available for use by emergency vehicles

Are you saying that protesters are mindful of emergency vehicles? Do they even consider?

Ian Murray
20-10-2019, 12:27 PM
Are you saying that protesters are mindful of emergency vehicles? Do they even consider?

Of course

Extinction Rebellion protests: Hundreds of eco-activists clear roadblock to allow ambulance through central London (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/xr-protests-clear-roadblock-to-allow-ambulance-through-central-london-a4260731.html)

Patrick Byrom
20-10-2019, 02:21 PM
Normally yes, but what if the traffic includes an ambulance taking a patient urgently to hospital, or police trying to respond to a vicious assault?That's not relevant to the example being discussed, but protesters could still be physically removed without being assaulted.

Patrick Byrom
20-10-2019, 02:34 PM
If people are being disrupted by protests, then they have every right to end this disruption. ... So you have joined ER and Michael in rejecting our political system (which allows peaceful protest) and supporting violence against non-violent protesters!

When Rosa Parks staged her non-violent protest against segregation, would you (presumably along with ER and Michael) have supported the bus passengers violently assaulting her to end her disruption?

Patrick Byrom
20-10-2019, 02:37 PM
... I honestly, do not like to see ugly scenes like those in St Kilda where we (the citizens) had to take the law in our hands to give the black gangs a lesson they will never forget!Taking the law into your own hands is a rejection of our political system.

ER
20-10-2019, 03:26 PM
Taking the law into your own hands is a rejection of our political system.

get your facts right sweetie, my political system throws xstinkers and other illegal scum like them in jail.
Not really sure what your political system does in Kabul but I don't really care!

ER
20-10-2019, 03:35 PM
So you have joined ER and Michael in rejecting our political system (...blah, blah..)
My australian political system provides for self defense. Threaten myself, my people and my property like your friends - the Sudanese gangs did in my
neighbourhood or try to block my way to work. or to an appointment like your beloved xstinkers did in the CBD of my city and you've got another thing coming to you - the Australian way too!

Patrick Byrom
20-10-2019, 04:37 PM
get your facts right sweetie, my political system throws xstinkers and other illegal scum like them in jail. You need to check your facts - people who block traffic in Australia are not sent to jail. And even if they were, that doesn't give you the right to take the law into your own hands, for which you will be sent to jail!

Patrick Byrom
20-10-2019, 04:41 PM
My australian political system provides for self defense. Threaten myself, my people and my property like your friends - the Sudanese gangs did in my
neighbourhood or try to block my way to work. or to an appointment like your beloved xstinkers did in the CBD of my city and you've got another thing coming to you - the Australian way too!What definition of "self defence" includes the 'right' to 'defend' yourself against people blocking your way to work? Do the protesters also have a right to defend themselves against you?

ER
20-10-2019, 06:50 PM
Apart from being pests xstiners are utterly stupid and incompetent
too! :D :P


https://youtu.be/l8Z8MP44OqQ

and some comments the local econutjobs might find useful!

• Epic levels of incompetence...and they insist on telling others how to live... hahaha.
• These people want to run the entire world. They're too thick to switch off the pump.
• Idiots. They should be made to clean up that mess they made!
• Is this the same treasury that supports the vulnerable in hospitals and those requiring welfare payments?
• they literally wet themselves
• Communists went from red to green but they are still just the same damn thing
• Spraying thousands of gallons of paint that will end up in the water system is a great way to show you are filled with fake outrage.
• 4 million beetroot plants died for this!
• literally caught red handed poluting the earth.
• God, these leftists are insane.
• Pathetic lefty morons, can’t even hold a hose pipe , I hope they were arrested and get huge penalties
• Show lessRead more2 weeks ago
• paul armstrong 2 weeks ago •
• epic fail from the eco-nutjobs :)
• Thats a Bloody Mess!
• Bunch of incompetent fools - please pull more of your stunts-the British people are in need of a good laugh.

Ian Murray
20-10-2019, 07:26 PM
Threats to Extinction Rebellion show their demands are being heard, but ignored (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-12/extinction-rebellion-protest-demand-heard-but-ignored/11594914)
The Conversation
12.10.19

Scores of arrests have been made across Australia as the Extinction Rebellion enters its fifth day of protests.

The activists are desperately trying to force the Australian Government to take serious and effective action against climate change.

And their brand of civil disobedience has caused major inconveniences, from hanging off bridges to locking themselves to gates, vehicles or cement blocks.

But while inconvenient, their protests are still non-violent.

This is an important point to stress, as the members of state and federal governments peddle the view that they are criminals and anarchists.

In fact, as the movement grows stronger, so do the governments' attempt to stop it.

It shows the Extinction Rebellion's demands are actually being heard, but at the same time, the drastic responses make it clear policy makers will still choose to ignore them....

Ian Murray
20-10-2019, 07:47 PM
Extinction Rebellion? It was all very inconvenient (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/extinction-rebellion-it-was-all-very-inconvenient-20191011-p52zwg.html)
The Age
12.10.19

Some people sat down in the middle of Lonsdale Street and blocked the intersection with Russell Street for 25 minutes. Then they blocked the intersection of Russell and Collins streets. A little later, police stopped the people outside Flinders Street Station, eventually arresting 11 of them. Trams were diverted, traffic was held up.

No doubt someone was late for something that was important to them. Some people felt frustrated at being stuck in traffic (though you don’t need a climate protest to feel frustrated in Melbourne traffic, or indeed to get stuck in it); others might even have become angry at this disruption to the expected flow of their day. It was all very inconvenient.

The next day, the protesters blockaded the Treasury, and 56 people were arrested. Premier Daniel Andrews said the protests, part of Extinction Rebellion’s Spring Uprising, aren’t winning the climate cause any friends. His government’s tunnelling and road building are causing enough disruption for Melburnians already. Please don’t add to the inconvenience with your climate concerns.

Perhaps the Premier thinks Extinction Rebellion could hold off for a few years until the tunnels are built? That would be entirely consistent with the general government approach to the climate emergency in Australia, which has been to put off really thinking about it too much because there always seems to be something more pressing to deal with than the future of life on Earth....

antichrist
20-10-2019, 08:23 PM
Concerning carbon monoxide I have just read that it was used in gas chambers in Poland by Germany. And here we are world wide using probably billions of litres a day.

ER
21-10-2019, 01:11 AM
The activists are desperately trying to force the Australian Government to take serious and effective action against climate change.

apart from being stupid, yes I agree they are also desperate!


But while inconvenient, their protests are still non-violent.

their style of protesting is violent. Forcing normal public and private services to a standstill and leading to risking people's lives is violence!


This is an important point to stress, as the members of state and federal governments peddle the view that they are criminals and anarchists.

which they are!


In fact, as the movement grows stronger, so do the governments' attempt to stop it.

cool story bro, flash in a pan, XR has already lost momentum and hopefully the silly buggers won't have same fate
as their UK mates brought back to line the hard way by those indignant Londoners!


It shows the Extinction Rebellion's demands are actually being heard, but at the same time, the drastic responses make it clear policy makers will still choose to ignore them....

What a shame!!! How dare a democratically elected Govt with one of the best (if not the best) environmental policies in the world, not to succumb to some vulgar blackmail from a bunch of unwashed morons!
What's this world coming to!

MichaelBaron
21-10-2019, 01:51 AM
What definition of "self defence" includes the 'right' to 'defend' yourself against people blocking your way to work? Do the protesters also have a right to defend themselves against you?

Do I have a right to expect Police to clear my way to work that is blocked unlawfully?

Desmond
21-10-2019, 07:49 AM
Do I have a right to expect Police to clear my way to work that is blocked unlawfully?

Police have authority to do things, given to them by society, that are not allowed for John Citizen to do. If you take the law into your own hands, you are breaking the law. Yes you can expect police to clear the way. No you cannot violently do it yourself.

Ian Murray
21-10-2019, 08:04 AM
Rising tide (https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2019/october/1569374459/bronwyn-adcock/rising-tide)
Dealing with sea-level rise when private property is at stake
The Monthly
October 2019

...Like every other local government around the Australian coastline, Shoalhaven City Council has spent much of the past decade trying to figure out what to do about that wickedest of problems: 85 per cent of us live in proximity to the coast, and as the climate warms and sea levels rise, bringing bigger tides and more frequent storms, the ocean is coming for many of our homes. Local councils – being the ones that decide where and how we build – are the first responders to this critical challenge.

In 2015, Shoalhaven councillors solved the problem by voting to plan for a future in which sea-level rise will not be so bad after all: an alternative reality, where Shoalhaven remains unscathed from the worst impacts of climate change.

Stevenson witnessed this decision-making process unfold and still can’t quite believe what he saw. “It was just bizarre,” he says.

The council had commissioned an expert report, and then tossed most of it out, taking the advice of an American climate-change denial advocacy organisation backed by the fossil-fuel industry, and the advice of a group of property owners whose land value was impacted by the expert report’s findings.

“It was horrifying,” says Stevenson. “I mean, it was just crap policy.”...

Blunderbuss
21-10-2019, 10:31 AM
What's this world coming to!

A better question would be ‘Where is the world heading to?’.

We are NOT violent but increasingly there have been instances where public figures are openly citing violence against us. Not hinting at it, or dog-whistling. Openly saying that these ‘people’ need to be killed, or at least hurt, on major media networks. For example: -


Pauline Hanson suggests using cattle prods on climate protesters – Australia Today 22-Aug 2019
Kerri-Anne Kennerley suggests running over climate change protestors – News.com.au 11-Oct 2019

You can arrest us, lock us up, and call us names but attacking the messenger won’t put the fire out.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/scott-ludlam-says-shutting-down-climate-protests-like-turning-off-smoke-alarm (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/scott-ludlam-says-shutting-down-climate-protests-like-turning-off-smoke-alarm)

Patrick Byrom
21-10-2019, 12:12 PM
their style of protesting is violent. Forcing normal public and private services to a standstill and leading to risking people's lives is violence!So a person who is sitting quietly and not moving at all is behaving violently!? You should be writing propaganda for the Chinese government!


What a shame!!! How dare a democratically elected Govt with one of the best (if not the best) environmental policies in the world, not to succumb to some vulgar blackmail from a bunch of unwashed morons! What's this world coming to!Australia doesn't have the best environmental policies in the world - we're not even close!

Ian Murray
21-10-2019, 12:20 PM
Australia doesn't have the best environmental policies in the world - we're not even close!

A climate policy and an energy policy would be nice.

Blunderbuss
21-10-2019, 01:23 PM
More hippies...

It’s the end of the world as we know it... and Michael Stipe feels fine (https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/oct/20/michael-stipe-photography-art-solo-single-extinction-rebellion)



Stipe puts on a beanie hat, and his 90s jumper, and we go down to the lobby. He wants to check on the Extinction Rebellion protest before dinner. Erdem is a bit worried – he doesn’t like crowds, in case they turn nasty – but we all walk to Trafalgar Square, to wander between the tents and the flags, to dart through the crowd around an anarcho-rap band, the people queuing for vegan curry. It’s like the Green Fields at Glastonbury. And Stipe is utterly at home, moving swiftly between everyone, always looking, never stopping. I leave him there, in the dark, completely happy.

MichaelBaron
21-10-2019, 01:32 PM
Police have authority to do things, given to them by society, that are not allowed for John Citizen to do. If you take the law into your own hands, you are breaking the law. Yes you can expect police to clear the way. No you cannot violently do it yourself.

Do you agree that if police would be decisive enough to do their job and ensure that public transportation systems are not interrupted by those carrying out unlawful activities, citizens would not even have to to ''take law in own hands''.
Same in Melbourne...police tells protesters to leave...but rarely if ever resorts to quick action.
1 Warning/request to leave and clear way should be enough for protesters to stop. If not - step in and clear the way.

MichaelBaron
21-10-2019, 01:34 PM
Rising tide (https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2019/october/1569374459/bronwyn-adcock/rising-tide)
Dealing with sea-level rise when private property is at stake
The Monthly
October 2019

...Like every other local government around the Australian coastline, Shoalhaven City Council has spent much of the past decade trying to figure out what to do about that wickedest of problems: 85 per cent of us live in proximity to the coast, and as the climate warms and sea levels rise, bringing bigger tides and more frequent storms, the ocean is coming for many of our homes. Local councils – being the ones that decide where and how we build – are the first responders to this critical challenge.

In 2015, Shoalhaven councillors solved the problem by voting to plan for a future in which sea-level rise will not be so bad after all: an alternative reality, where Shoalhaven remains unscathed from the worst impacts of climate change.

Stevenson witnessed this decision-making process unfold and still can’t quite believe what he saw. “It was just bizarre,” he says.

The council had commissioned an expert report, and then tossed most of it out, taking the advice of an American climate-change denial advocacy organisation backed by the fossil-fuel industry, and the advice of a group of property owners whose land value was impacted by the expert report’s findings.

“It was horrifying,” says Stevenson. “I mean, it was just crap policy.”...

The council represents its citizens....if this is how citizens feel...why should it be unacceptable to us?

Patrick Byrom
21-10-2019, 01:47 PM
Do you agree that if police would be decisive enough to do their job and ensure that public transportation systems are not interrupted by those carrying out unlawful activities, citizens would not even have to to ''take law in own hands''.If you want to enforce the law, become a policeman! The penalty for blocking a road is a fine; the penalty for violently attacking someone is jail time.

Patrick Byrom
21-10-2019, 01:49 PM
The council represents its citizens....if this is how citizens feel...why should it be unacceptable to us?Because the rest of us will have to pay the cost of their stupidity in rising premiums.

Desmond
21-10-2019, 01:50 PM
Do you agree that if police would be decisive enough to do their job and ensure that public transportation systems are not interrupted by those carrying out unlawful activities, citizens would not even have to to ''take law in own hands''.
Same in Melbourne...police tells protesters to leave...but rarely if ever resorts to quick action.
1 Warning/request to leave and clear way should be enough for protesters to stop. If not - step in and clear the way.

If you think not getting your way justifies violence on another person, you probably belong in jail.
I trust the police's judgement in such matters far more than I trust yours.

Patrick Byrom
21-10-2019, 04:16 PM
Nice to see a myth being put to rest by an actual expert (https://7news.com.au/politics/pauline-hanson/coral-bleaching-happens-naturally-hanson-c-514581):


"You're saying that coral bleaching is affected by water temperatures," she told Dr David Wachenfeld. "Yet around Indonesia, closer to the equator ... where the water temperatures are 29C, it's a known fact that coral actually grows faster and more prolific in warmer temperatures."

Wachenfeld explained that corals live in a variety of water temperatures over the world, with substantial differences even within the Great Barrier Reef. Corals bleach when stressed - such as when exposed to warmer than normal temperatures - and die if stressed for prolonged periods, he told the senator. "The fact that corals in Indonesia could withstand higher temperatures than corals on the central Great Barrier Reef is of no benefit to the corals of the central Great Barrier Reef when they die."

Ian Murray
21-10-2019, 05:14 PM
The council represents its citizens....if this is how citizens feel...why should it be unacceptable to us?

The ratepayers weren't consulted. Faced with SLR-caused infrastructure expense and rezoning, and rate increases to pay for it all, the council kicked the can down the road for future councils to solve.

antichrist
21-10-2019, 06:44 PM
If the green movement concerned in XR has been taken over by the anarchists then I don't fully support it. I thought their actions have been a bit too radical to keep repeating numerous times. It is important to keep the public on board and to bring the public along with you. There are different ploys to achieve this. So it must be positive, constructive and happy even though the subject is deadly serious. I know the anarchists have been supporting environmentalism for 30 years at least so have to be respected. But if that is how they want to rebel then it is really their own business, I never listened to anybody when I was doing my own thing. It is important for more conventional activists to thrive to keep other protests more mainstream to grow the movement. They could try and get bicycle exchange depots established like there are in Japan I think and Europe and at the same time emphasizing the seriousness of climate change and the part that cycles can positively play in the pic. Fight for covered bicycles ways that are comfortable no matter the weather.

MichaelBaron
21-10-2019, 06:48 PM
Because the rest of us will have to pay the cost of their stupidity in rising premiums.

well its democracy for you...shall i list all things i am not happy about but ''people want them'' :)

Patrick Byrom
21-10-2019, 06:59 PM
well its democracy for you...shall i list all things i am not happy about but ''people want them'' :)You can list any that ignore the laws of physics, as the Council's decision does :)

Ian Murray
21-10-2019, 07:01 PM
Leading Australian engineers turn their backs on new fossil fuel projects (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/21/leading-engineers-turn-their-backs-on-new-fossil-fuel-projects)
The Guardian
21.10.19

Engineering firms are under increased pressure from their own employees to abandon controversial fossil fuel projects, as the sector turns its attention to the climate crisis.

About 1,000 Australian engineers and 90 organisations – including large firms and respected industry figures who have worked with fossil fuel companies – have signed a declaration to “evaluate all new projects against the environmental necessity to mitigate climate change”.

As the Australian Engineers Declare (https://engineersdeclare.org.au/) movement gathers pace, some industry figures say firms that work on Adani’s Carmichael coalmine project face a potential revolt from staff, and might struggle to recruit highly skilled people.

In the past few months, integrated services firms Aurecon and Cardno have both announced they would cut ties with Carmichael. The resources lobby has attempted to nullify the impact of environmental activism with veiled threats that companies might be effectively blacklisted from work on other projects. But little attention has been focused on a likely more compelling factor in those decisions – the influence of employees, whose expertise is the only real asset of most firms....

ER
21-10-2019, 09:58 PM
You should be writing propaganda for the Chinese government!

what's the pay like?

ER
21-10-2019, 10:03 PM
btw can anyone of you eco-nutjobs arrange for a bit of climate warming to come down to Melbourne? it's bloody freezing over here!

3929

and don't give me any of those climate warming has nothing to do with the weather patterns crap because I 'll dob you in to Gail! enough is bloody 'nough!

MichaelBaron
22-10-2019, 12:01 AM
what's the pay like?

Certainly less than Greta earns ..along with her parents ...i wonder if she donates all her earnings to those who really had their Childhood stolen...

Ian Murray
22-10-2019, 07:57 AM
Certainly less than Greta earns ..along with her parents ...i wonder if she donates all her earnings to those who really had their Childhood stolen...

Ooooh - still niggles, does it? Can't get over a girl making such an impact?

Capablanca-Fan
22-10-2019, 08:05 AM
If you want to enforce the law, become a policeman! The penalty for blocking a road is a fine; the penalty for violently attacking someone is jail time.

But what if the Polizei refuse to enforce the law? That is why Americans will not give up their rights to self-defence.

The blocking of a road could be tantamount to violence if it stops police from responding to a violent crime, or prevents an ambulance from delivering a patient urgently to hospital.

Capablanca-Fan
22-10-2019, 08:06 AM
Certainly less than Greta earns ..along with her parents ...i wonder if she donates all her earnings to those who really had their Childhood stolen...

Just like alGore: a real global–warm-mongering profit, oops, prophet.

As usual, they don't deign to make sacrifices to the earth goddess; they just want to force hoi polloi to sacrifice instead.

ER
22-10-2019, 08:26 AM
btw can anyone of you eco-nutjobs arrange for a bit of climate warming to come down to Melbourne? it's bloody freezing over here!

thanks, I appreciate that!

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/get-ready-to-sizzle-temperatures-are-set-to-soar-past-30c-in-nearly-every-capital-city-as-searing-heatwave-sweeps-across-australia-giving-thousands-of-workers-the-right-to-walk-off-the-job/ar-AAJ7kEi?ocid=spartanntp

Ian Murray
22-10-2019, 08:42 AM
Just like alGore: a real global–warm-mongering profit, oops, prophet.

As usual, they don't deign to make sacrifices to the earth goddess; they just want to force hoi polloi to sacrifice instead.

You too, eh? Girls can't have strong convictions?

Greta crosses the Atlantic by private jet, does she? Raking in appearance fees, is she?

Capablanca-Fan
22-10-2019, 10:15 AM
You too, eh? Girls can't have strong convictions?
It's not whether she is a girl or boy, but the fact that she is very young. Young people often have a zeal apart from knowledge. That's why demagogues have long exploited them for their own purposes.

Blunderbuss
22-10-2019, 11:59 AM
It's not whether she is a girl or boy, but the fact that she is very young. Young people often have a zeal apart from knowledge. That's why demagogues have long exploited them for their own purposes.

That must be why the demagogues in Scotland and Isle of Man lowered their voting age to 16.

Patrick Byrom
22-10-2019, 12:09 PM
what's the pay like?Ask Michael :)

Patrick Byrom
22-10-2019, 12:16 PM
But what if the Polizei refuse to enforce the law? That is why Americans will not give up their rights to self-defence.Are the police refusing to enforce the law in this case?


The blocking of a road could be tantamount to violence if it stops police from responding to a violent crime, or prevents an ambulance from delivering a patient urgently to hospital.If that was the case - which it wasn't - the police or ambulance workers could take the appropriate action, not you.

antichrist
22-10-2019, 01:48 PM
It's not whether she is a girl or boy, but the fact that she is very young. Young people often have a zeal apart from knowledge. That's why demagogues have long exploited them for their own purposes.
How can you possibly say that when Jesus was preaching in the temple at only aged 12 years. Was Jesus being manipulated?

Kevin Bonham
22-10-2019, 04:49 PM
It's not whether she is a girl or boy, but the fact that she is very young. Young people often have a zeal apart from knowledge.

Older people collectively aren't immune to this either. I see partisan rubbish both left and right doing a roaring trade in online circles comprised largely of over-50s.

ER
22-10-2019, 07:55 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/abc-climate-alarmists-are-just-democracy-deniers/ar-AAJ9gaK?ocid=spartanntp
well, nothing we didn't already know!

ER
22-10-2019, 07:57 PM
Ask Michael :)

I would but Michael would have never suggested something so stupid as you did in the first place! :D :P

Patrick Byrom
22-10-2019, 08:44 PM
I would but Michael would have never suggested something so stupid as you did in the first place! :D :P

Just a reminder of what I said:

So a person who is sitting quietly and not moving at all is behaving violently!? You should be writing propaganda for the Chinese government!Michael, and the Chinese government, would both agree that a non-violent protester sitting quietly on a road should be treated as a violent protester.

Ian Murray
22-10-2019, 08:57 PM
It's not whether she is a girl or boy, but the fact that she is very young. Young people often have a zeal apart from knowledge. That's why demagogues have long exploited them for their own purposes.

Social change driven by young people has been going on for a long time

Youth in Revolt: Five Powerful Movements Fueled by Young Activists (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2018/03/youth-activism-young-protesters-historic-movements/)

Look at passionate young people from any era and you’ll find impressive catalysts for change.

The leaders of this weekend’s March for Our Lives are no different. Students from Parkland, Florida—who faced a tragic shooting at their high school in February 2018—organized the event to demand gun-control legislation and an end to school shootings.

Though the teenagers have drawn criticism from some, they've been commended by others for their spirit, focus, and savvy. They’ve maintained a clear message, mobilized a nation, and rallied support from celebrities and politicians—even former president Barack Obama and former first lady Michelle Obama.

But they aren’t an anomaly. These students are the newest link in a decades-long chain of youth activists at the forefront of social change across the globe.

Here are five other movements similarly driven forward by young protesters.

Civil Rights Movement
Vietnam War Protests
Tiananmen Square
Arab Spring
Indigenous Water Rights

Patrick Byrom
22-10-2019, 09:03 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/abc-climate-alarmists-are-just-democracy-deniers/ar-AAJ9gaK?ocid=spartanntp
well, nothing we didn't already know!This argument you keep making, that having a different view to the government is somehow a rejection of democracy, is itself a rejection of democracy!

Desmond
23-10-2019, 09:09 AM
This argument you keep making, that having a different view to the government is somehow a rejection of democracy, is itself a rejection of democracy!

Climate deniers are now a vocal minority. The tail is wagging the dog in government policy.

Are Australians more worried about climate change or climate policy? (https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/are-australians-more-worried-about-climate-change-or-climate-policy)


...First, and perhaps most striking, Australians have identified climate change as the most critical threat to Australia’s “vital interests”. Almost two thirds (64%) of respondents described climate change as a critical threat, above cyber attacks (62%), terrorism (61%) or North Korea’s nuclear program (60%), for example.

...Second, the latest poll indicates that Australians believe energy policy should primarily orient around reducing carbon emissions. This policy priority was identified as the most important by 47% of respondents, higher than reducing household bills (38%) or reducing the risk of power blackouts (15%).

Third, 61% of Australians surveyed agreed with the statement that global warming is “a serious and pressing problem (and) we should begin taking steps now even if this involves significant costs”. This is the highest point for over a decade (since 2008).

So is this grounds for hope that we will see substantive action on climate change in Australia? Will public attitudes ultimately drive new and ambitious climate policy?

Aside from the ideological commitments of this government, there are three big reasons to be cautious. ...

ER
23-10-2019, 09:35 AM
This argument you keep making, that having a different view to the government is somehow a rejection of democracy, is itself a rejection of democracy!

Tell that to the vast majority of Australian voters who rejected all the stupid greenie, eco-nutjobs ideas and the non-democratic, distracting and violent methods to impose them in the most recent elections!

Ian Murray
23-10-2019, 09:46 AM
Exxon and Oil Sands Go on Trial in New York Climate Fraud Case (https://insideclimatenews.org/news/16102019/exxon-oil-sands-trial-climate-change-fraud-new-york-rex-tillerson)
Inside Climate News
17.10.19

NEW YORK, New York — In late 2013, ExxonMobil faced increasing pressure from investors to disclose more about the risks the company faced as governments began limiting greenhouse gas emissions. Of the many costs climate change will impose, oil companies face a particularly acute one: the demand for their product will have to shrink.

For years, Exxon had been using something called a proxy cost of carbon to estimate what stricter climate policies might mean for its bottom line. But as pressure from shareholders grew, a problem came sharply into focus: An internal presentation warned top executives that the way the company had been applying this proxy cost was potentially misleading. That's because Exxon didn't have one projected cost of carbon. It had two.

The contents of that presentation are at the heart of a trial set to start next week in a civil case brought against the company by the New York attorney general. Exxon is accused of disclosing one set of these projected carbon costs to investors while planners used an entirely different set internally for evaluating investments. The public set was more conservative and projected that climate policies would be more stringent, while the internal one assumed more modest attempts to limit emissions. The effect of using these dueling estimates, the attorney general says, was that Exxon hid tens of billions of dollars in potential costs, downplaying the risk to investors and inflating the company's value....

MichaelBaron
23-10-2019, 11:18 AM
This argument you keep making, that having a different view to the government is somehow a rejection of democracy, is itself a rejection of democracy!

Does democracy allow to exercise one's rights at the expense of others rights? People have a right to any opinion but people disrupting lives of other people. Is it democratic and legal?

Ian Murray
23-10-2019, 11:57 AM
Does democracy allow to exercise one's rights at the expense of others rights? People have a right to any opinion but people disrupting lives of other people. Is it democratic and legal?

Some human rights carry more weight than others. The common law right to freedom of assembly and the freedom of political communication implied in the Australian constitution outweigh any right to unimpeded progress on the streets.

antichrist
23-10-2019, 01:58 PM
Does democracy allow to exercise one's rights at the expense of others rights? People have a right to any opinion but people disrupting lives of other people. Is it democratic and legal?

Why do car driver polluters have the freedom to pollute the atmosphere for other people's lungs and the wildlife? It is mainstream people who are disrupting the life of those who want to live healthy and moral lives but it is useless attempting whilst other people are committing dirty habits. The polluters are also disrupting the lives of future generations. It should not be legal - the objectors should not have to protest to protect their (God-given) birth rights.

Ian Murray
23-10-2019, 04:40 PM
Coal city Newcastle signs 10-year deal for 100 per cent renewable supply (https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/coal-city-newcastle-signs-10-year-deal-for-100-per-cent-renewable-supply/)
One Step off the Grid
22.10.19

The City of Newcastle says it will become the first local government in NSW to move to 100 per cent renewable electricity after awarding a tender to purchase power from the state’s largest wind farm.

The city – whose economy has traditionally been built around the region’s coal mines and generators, signed a 10 year power purchase agreement this week with Flow Power to buy the equivalent of all its electricity needs from the Sapphire wind farm in New England.

The deal – for 14GWh – was announced on the same day as the City of Sydney announced its own 100 per cent renewable energy deal, to take effect from next July. That deal is much larger in scope (about 28GWh) and will source its power contract from both the Sapphire wind farm and the Bomen solar farm near Wagga Wagga.

The City of Newcastle says the 10-year contract will save rate payers around $1.8 million....

MichaelBaron
23-10-2019, 04:57 PM
Why do car driver polluters have the freedom to pollute the atmosphere for other people's lungs and the wildlife? It is mainstream people who are disrupting the life of those who want to live healthy and moral lives but it is useless attempting whilst other people are committing dirty habits. The polluters are also disrupting the lives of future generations. It should not be legal - the objectors should not have to protest to protect their (God-given) birth rights.

Do car drivers drive against the laws? If it becomes illegal - they should not drive? Re morality: what gives minority a right to lecture majority :)?

MichaelBaron
23-10-2019, 04:58 PM
Coal city Newcastle signs 10-year deal for 100 per cent renewable supply (https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/coal-city-newcastle-signs-10-year-deal-for-100-per-cent-renewable-supply/)
One Step off the Grid
22.10.19

The City of Newcastle says it will become the first local government in NSW to move to 100 per cent renewable electricity after awarding a tender to purchase power from the state’s largest wind farm.

The city – whose economy has traditionally been built around the region’s coal mines and generators, signed a 10 year power purchase agreement this week with Flow Power to buy the equivalent of all its electricity needs from the Sapphire wind farm in New England.

The deal – for 14GWh – was announced on the same day as the City of Sydney announced its own 100 per cent renewable energy deal, to take effect from next July. That deal is much larger in scope (about 28GWh) and will source its power contract from both the Sapphire wind farm and the Bomen solar farm near Wagga Wagga.

The City of Newcastle says the 10-year contract will save rate payers around $1.8 million....

If it is going to be cheaper for residents and they are happy - congratulations to them obviously~!

Patrick Byrom
23-10-2019, 05:27 PM
Tell that to the vast majority of Australian voters who rejected all the stupid greenie, eco-nutjobs ideas and the non-democratic, distracting and violent methods to impose them in the most recent elections!There is nothing "non-democratic" or violent about non-violent protests. But most Australians voted for parties that support action to reduce global heating (as the Coalition, Labor and Greens all do), so on that basis you are the one rejecting democracy!

Patrick Byrom
23-10-2019, 05:30 PM
thanks, I appreciate that! https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/get-ready-to-sizzle-temperatures-are-set-to-soar-past-30c-in-nearly-every-capital-city-as-searing-heatwave-sweeps-across-australia-giving-thousands-of-workers-the-right-to-walk-off-the-job/ar-AAJ7kEi?ocid=spartanntpBe careful what you wish for (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/23/australia-heading-for-hottest-day-in-years-on-thursday-as-bushfire-risk-escalates):

Eastern parts of Australia will experience their hottest October day in years on Thursday as forecasters warn temperatures could hit 16C above average in some areas as the risk of bushfires increases. ... By Saturday, temperatures will drop, but this will see a rise in bushfire risk for parts of northern NSW and south-east Queensland. NSW has already seen more bushland burned this fire season than in the two previous seasons combined.

antichrist
24-10-2019, 01:48 AM
Do car drivers drive against the laws? If it becomes illegal - they should not drive? Re morality: what gives minority a right to lecture majority :)?

Because the majority are immorally poisoning the air of the minority whose rights also have to be protected. If it was common practice that murder was okay would you agree to your mother having her throat slashed by a Southern Sudanese or any other person? Just because Germany defaultedly accepted the Holocaust does it make the Holocaust any more acceptable?

antichrist
24-10-2019, 02:00 AM
Car and industry pollution now causing climate changes is a much slower version of mass murder or life extinction - the same result!

MichaelBaron
24-10-2019, 03:20 AM
Because the majority are immorally poisoning the air of the minority whose rights also have to be protected. If it was common practice that murder was okay would you agree to your mother having her throat slashed by a Southern Sudanese or any other person? Just because Germany defaultedly accepted the Holocaust does it make the Holocaust any more acceptable?

''Immorally poisoning the air'' = shall we all stop breezing?

antichrist
24-10-2019, 06:48 AM
''Immorally poisoning the air'' = shall we all stop breezing?

I know a few people with asthma who end up in hospital due to industrial and traffic pollution. All creatures have the right to a healthy environment if not we don't have basic respect for life, once we lose that basic respect Holocausts can occur, rivers get poisoned etc etc

ER
24-10-2019, 07:57 AM
There is nothing "non-democratic" or violent about non-violent protests. But most Australians voted for parties that support action to reduce global heating (as the Coalition, Labor and Greens all do), so on that basis you are the one rejecting democracy!
Not sure if you are actually a real eco-nutjob blocking violently the streets and illegally disrupting trafic or just a couch potato eco-nutjob sulking because your policies are anachronistic, rejected by the majority of Australian people,
hopelessly failing as well as punishable by law.
Your mob is removed from the streets (actually the X-stinkers are making themselves rare in our streets these days - I hope they got the message), charged and punished for their moronic anti-social behaviour! So get it!
You're down and out!
As for me, I am a respectable, law abiding citizen. As such I go about my business including going to the CBD almost on a daily basis.
Try to stop me and block my way, I will ask you politely to please let me go through, you are keep on doing so, despite my efforts.
I will ask for police assistance. If they are around I am sure they will remove you. If not I will tell you once more to piss off and leave me alone.
If you keep on being silly, I will walk through you using my body. From the moment you raise a hand to push me or hit me, I will drop you. As simple as that!

ER
24-10-2019, 08:33 AM
I know a few people with asthma who end up in hospital due to industrial and traffic pollution. All creatures have the right to a healthy environment if not we don't have basic respect for life, once we lose that basic respect Holocausts can occur, rivers get poisoned etc etc

Apart from your almost obsessive tendency to combine whatever you refer to with Hitler, Nazi Germany, antisemitism, and all that jazz,
your references to matters has an an enjoyable down to earth (no pun intended) logical and practical quality unlike the incomprehensible, chaotic, and silly stuff
provided by the other eco-nutjobs in this forum - not that you aren't one! :D
Interestingly, in reference to asthma, I was reading an Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW) study the other day regarding the disease's
associated comorbidities and risk factors as well as percentages of sufferers depending on geographical socio-economic conditions!
I was surprised to find that the percentage of sufferers inhabit remote areas of the country where you are (Not Always) exposed to clearer
air, less chemicals, and pollution unlike the CBD and inner city areas targeted by the xstinkers' illegal, anti-democratic and violent action.
Here is a very interesting diagram:

3932

For further analysis of some very important points in regards to Asthma please read the whole article here.

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/chronic-respiratory-conditions/asthma/contents/asthma

Desmond
24-10-2019, 08:34 AM
''Immorally poisoning the air'' = shall we all stop breezing?The polluter should pay.

antichrist
24-10-2019, 09:33 AM
ER, your post shows that asthma is set off by many triggers but fumes and pollution is one addition that is not natural and adds to a higher total. So yes people's health is being adversely effected by car driving and industrialisation. I heard on RN the other day how the Big Yellow mouse in Canada is migrating northwards due to climate change and wrecking havoc amongst the native mice who have to change their habits due to such. A bit like Michael's coloured intruders into Melbourne causing havoc according to Michael. Actually the Sudan is also suffering from climate change factors that cause conflict over dwindling resources. So there is a hole in the bucket dear Michael dear Michael.

Patrick Byrom
24-10-2019, 10:19 AM
Not sure if you are actually a real eco-nutjob blocking violently the streets and illegally disrupting trafic or just a couch potato eco-nutjob sulking because your policies are anachronistic, rejected by the majority of Australian people, ... Action to stop man-made global heating is supported by all major parties and by a majority of the Australian people. You, Michael and Capablanca-Fan have completely lost that argument in Australia.

MichaelBaron
24-10-2019, 10:41 AM
Action to stop man-made global heating is supported by all major parties and by a majority of the Australian people. You, Michael and Capablanca-Fan have completely lost that argument in Australia.

Major parties support specific measures that they are advocating. Major parties do NOT support uncivilised actions of the Rebellion. Or if they do - they should join the rebellion inside the fountain - there is still space left.

Ian Murray
24-10-2019, 12:15 PM
Major parties support specific measures that they are advocating. .

Because that's what the majority of the Australian people want


Major parties do NOT support uncivilised actions of the Rebellion. .

Of course not. Civil disobedience is anathema to governments - they much prefer a compliant constituency which asks no questions (see for example the Federal government's recent efforts to muzzle the media).

Patrick Byrom
24-10-2019, 12:44 PM
Major parties support specific measures that they are advocating.Obviously they support what they are supporting!

Major parties do NOT support uncivilised actions of the Rebellion. Or if they do - they should join the rebellion inside the fountain - there is still space left.I didn't say they supported their actions. But they do support the argument by Extinction Rebellion that action has to be taken by Australia to stop man-made global heating. You and ER are the ones 'rejecting democracy'.

MichaelBaron
24-10-2019, 12:53 PM
Obviously they support what they are supporting!
I didn't say they supported their actions. But they do support the argument by Extinction Rebellion that action has to be taken by Australia to stop man-made global heating. You and ER are the ones 'rejecting democracy'.

I have an argument that stealing is wrong...should i start cutting off people's hands?

Ian Murray
24-10-2019, 12:58 PM
I have an argument that stealing is wrong...should i start cutting off people's hands?

Relevance?

Ian Murray
24-10-2019, 01:13 PM
We're lucky to have non-violent protests. Not so elswhere:

Season of discontent: protests flare around the world (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-protests/season-of-discontent-protests-flare-around-the-world-idUSKBN1X127J)
Reuters
23.10.19

On Monday it was Bolivia - angry people clashed with police after the political opposition said it had been cheated in an election won by incumbent President Evo Morales.

Last week, the streets of the Chilean capital Santiago descended into chaos, as demonstrators enraged by a hike in public transport fares looted stores, set a bus alight and prompted the president to declare a state of emergency.

Earlier this month, Ecuador’s leader did the same after violent unrest triggered by the decision to end fuel subsidies that had been in place for decades.

And that was just South America.

Hong Kong has been in turmoil for months, Lebanon’s capital Beirut was at a standstill, parts of Barcelona resembled a battlefield last week and tens of thousands of Britons marched through London at the weekend over Brexit. ...

ER
24-10-2019, 02:21 PM
Action to stop man-made global heating is supported by all major parties and by a majority of the Australian people.

which is absolute hogwash again. as far as cheap talk blah blah is concerned you eco-nutjob are a real bs champion!
Now read the real facts


From Latest Lowry Institute poll] (…)


Combined with significant differences in attitudes to climate change between rural and urban voters, and based on levels of wealth and education, this suggests continued divisions across the country that policy-makers may struggle to overcome.

Australians had a chance at the ballot box only weeks ago to send a strong and meaningful message about their desire for climate action, and largely didn’t.

While the Greens did quite well, Australians ultimately voted in a government that had gone to the election with minimal emissions reduction targets, a commitment to new fossil fuel projects, no new emissions reduction policy and a track record of steadily rising emissions.


when Australians are ultimately faced with supporting strong climate action, they get cold feet. Perhaps this is the product of effective mobilisation by forces and voices for climate inaction. But it probably shouldn’t be this easy for public opinion to be manipulated, at least not to the scale we’ve seen with climate change.

A simpler, if more cynical, interpretation is that when we think we might need to make sacrifices to act on climate change, our concerns about climate change itself starts to wane, at least relative to other considerations.





You, Michael and Capablanca-Fan have completely lost that argument in Australia.

Ha! ha! personal attacks won't get you to town with me! Keep them for yourself and your sheep-like, mouthpiece, recorded message like, xstinker mates.
Both Drs. Baron and Sarfati, as well as myself are people with individual integrity, with our own agreements, disagreements and varying points of view.
BTW there's no point to continue trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and they likes of you, I mean I am pointing the moon to you and all you do is looking at my frigging finger! :P :D
Plus I am busy making money among other useful things so …
Go to iggyland you 'll be in a good company there!

ER
24-10-2019, 02:30 PM
ER, your post shows that asthma is set off by many triggers but fumes and pollution is one addition that is not natural and adds to a higher total.

I don't think you understood the graph and its importance, and I am sure you did not read the whole article, so ok forget about it! :D

Patrick Byrom
24-10-2019, 06:01 PM
which is absolute hogwash again. as far as cheap talk blah blah is concerned you eco-nutjob are a real bs champion!
Now read the real facts Try again - nothing that you've posted from the Lowy Institute disproves my claim!


Ha! ha! personal attacks won't get you to town with me! Keep them for yourself and your sheep-like, mouthpiece, recorded message like, xstinker mates.I see that you can't disprove my claims, so you're resorting to personal attacks.


Both Drs. Baron and Sarfati, as well as myself are people with individual integrity, with our own agreements, disagreements and varying points of view. BTW there's no point to continue trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and they likes of you, I mean I am pointing the moon to you and all you do is looking at my frigging finger! :P :D Plus I am busy making money among other useful things so … Go to iggyland you 'll be in a good company there!It's sad how right-wingers here keep avoiding actual arguments and just resort to personal attacks :(

antichrist
24-10-2019, 06:05 PM
I don't think you understood the graph and its importance, and I am sure you did not read the whole article, so ok forget about it! :D

I certainly read it and it stated many causes of asthma (that I already knew) amongst of which was fumes and pollution, that also contribute to climate change so they are the ones relevant to this thread.

Ian Murray
24-10-2019, 07:12 PM
Try again - nothing that you've posted from the Lowy Institute disproves my claim!

I see that you can't disprove my claims, so you're resorting to personal attacks.

It's sad how right-wingers here keep avoiding actual arguments and just resort to personal attacks :(

He's a troll. Pat - ignore him. Refuting his rants with reason just foments more frothing at the mouth.

Patrick Byrom
24-10-2019, 07:35 PM
He's a troll. Pat - ignore him. Refuting his rants with reason just foments more frothing at the mouth.I expect that he'll block us again soon anyway - after claiming that we're trolls :(

Still, two last facts: "But although most respondents believed that climate change was happening, just 61 per cent said they thought humans were the cause." (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-09-10/climate-of-nation-australia-attitudes/11484690). Even 61% is a clear majority of Australians who believe climate change is man-made. And a majority want action (from the same link): "And the majority of Australians want the Federal Government to do more to meet the Paris Agreement goal of limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius, according to report co-author Richie Merzian."

ER
25-10-2019, 11:47 AM
LOL I had blocked him instead of you, thanks for letting me know. Now you are both in the sinbin! Enjoy! :D

ER
25-10-2019, 11:48 AM
well I wouldn't expect any better behavior from those violent morons! would you?

https://www.news.com.au/national/a-disabled-man-claims-extinction-rebellion-protesters-heckled-and-verbally-abused-him/news-story/31ff731a38d03ea114e4073821a440b9

Patrick Byrom
25-10-2019, 01:08 PM
well I wouldn't expect any better behavior from those violent morons! would you?
https://www.news.com.au/national/a-disabled-man-claims-extinction-rebellion-protesters-heckled-and-verbally-abused-him/news-story/31ff731a38d03ea114e4073821a440b9Heckling and verbal abuse isn't violence - obviously.

Ian Murray
25-10-2019, 01:39 PM
Heckling and verbal abuse isn't violence - obviously.

He claims he spoke to some of the protesters politely and reasonably, making an abusive response seem unlikely (XR policy is non-confrontational non-violent civil disobedience).. There's more to the story.

MichaelBaron
25-10-2019, 05:03 PM
Heckling and verbal abuse isn't violence - obviously.

So should ''non-violent heckling and verbal abuse'' be accepted.?

MichaelBaron
25-10-2019, 05:05 PM
So should ''non-violent heckling and verbal abuse'' be accepted.?

Should also mention that the victim was a Person with a disability. abusing a person with a disability - how low is that!

Patrick Byrom
25-10-2019, 05:51 PM
So should ''non-violent heckling and verbal abuse'' be accepted.?Nobody's arguing that it should be "accepted". But it's clearly not violence, so it can't be used to describe ER as violent - do you agree?

And I assume that you will naturally condemn any verbal abuse by ER and Capablanca-Fan - correct?

ER
25-10-2019, 06:13 PM
Makes it easier to understand the Xstinkers' violent behavior bur I really hope Greta sticks to her normal medication.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/20/extinction-rebellion-founder-urges-mass-ingestion-drugs-protest/
BTW there are some additional stories about Gail and her travels which I don't have the time to refer to right now!

antichrist
25-10-2019, 07:34 PM
Makes it easier to understand the Xstinkers' violent behavior bur I really hope Greta sticks to her normal medication.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/20/extinction-rebellion-founder-urges-mass-ingestion-drugs-protest/
BTW there are some additional stories about Gail and her travels which I don't have the time to refer to right now!

Who is Gail?

ER
25-10-2019, 08:56 PM
Who is Gail?

read the article on link provided.
I 'll publish more info soon!

ER
25-10-2019, 08:57 PM
Still a slap on the wrist but not a bad move to start with!

https://www.news.com.au/video/id-5348771529001-6097455392001/Qld-parliament-cracks-down-on-climate-change-protestors-

Blunderbuss
25-10-2019, 09:29 PM
Still a slap on the wrist but not a bad move to start with!

Even before the news laws were rush through the QLD police were happy to abuse the laws, they already had...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/24/teenage-girl-among-20-extinction-rebellion-activists-strip-searched-by-brisbane-police (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/24/teenage-girl-among-20-extinction-rebellion-activists-strip-searched-by-brisbane-police)

Blunderbuss
25-10-2019, 10:25 PM
Who is Gail?

Here’s Gail explaining the ‘shift to ‘teal’ consciousness’ via spiral dynamics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOZm-4h86C0

Patrick Byrom
25-10-2019, 10:44 PM
read the article on link provided. I 'll publish more info soon!Gail Bradbrook has a PhD in physics - no wonder she has a much better understanding of global heating than ER!

MichaelBaron
26-10-2019, 12:49 AM
Gail Bradbrook has a PhD in physics - no wonder she has a much better understanding of global heating than ER!

What if some PhD in Physics published an article that questions global heating? Shall he be stripped of PhD? :)