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Spiny Norman
18-05-2007, 10:21 AM
Hi all,

I'm embarassed to have to ask this question, but as I have never done an arbiting training course and know only a moderate amount about SwissPerfect I thought I should double-check things.

We've just completed a tournament at Croydon. There were two instances where a player did not turn up to play their scheduled game:

Case#1: a player rang our d.o.p. just before the round started to advise that they were sick. this explanation was accepted as genuine. because of the lateness of the notification, the d.o.p. decided that his opponent who DID turn up should get a full point, whereas the sick player should not receive a point for that round.

Case #2: a player simply "didn't turn up" for their final round game, with no notification to the d.o.p. at all. his opponent, who DID turn up and who had White, played 1.c4 and started the clock. player who didn't turn up lost on time.

Assuming that in both cases we want to award a full point to the player who did turn up, and no points to the player who didn't turn up ... what is the correct method for recording this in Swiss Perfect?

Should it be 1-0, or +/-? Is it the same in both cases, or is the second case more eggregious and therefore is treated differently?

Spiny Norman
18-05-2007, 10:32 AM
Further information ... as currently coded in the SP file:

Case #1: we ended up giving the player who turned up a 1-point BYE, and the player who was unwell but who reported this late a 0-point BYE

Case #2: is currently recorded as +/- but I was thinking maybe it ought to be 1-0 instead

Ian Rout
18-05-2007, 11:15 AM
I would say +/- in both cases. They are both forfeits, the particular circumstances, while different, don't change that.

Edit: For pairing purposes, recording as 1 and 0-point byes has the same effect as +/-.

Igor_Goldenberg
18-05-2007, 01:40 PM
Edit: For pairing purposes, recording as 1 and 0-point byes has the same effect as +/-.

Not sure. In case of +/- players can be paired again.

Bill Gletsos
18-05-2007, 02:05 PM
Not sure. In case of +/- players can be paired again.True but pairing them as 1 and 0 point byes would also allow them to be paired again in a later round since as byes they are not shown as being paired together originally.

Bill Gletsos
18-05-2007, 02:07 PM
I would say +/- in both cases. They are both forfeits, the particular circumstances, while different, don't change that.I agree.

Phil Bourke
19-05-2007, 12:38 AM
True but pairing them as 1 and 0 point byes would also allow them to be paired again in a later round since as byes they are not shown as being paired together originally.
Would it be OK for them to paired to meet again in a later round, as by the game being unplayed, they wouldn't have met yet?
B1 Two players shall not meet more than once.

Garvinator
19-05-2007, 12:44 AM
Would it be OK for them to paired to meet again in a later round, as by the game being unplayed, they wouldn't have met yet?
B1 Two players shall not meet more than once.

F.2
Byes, and pairing not actually played, or lost by one of the players due to arriving late or not at all, will not be taken into account with respect to colour, Such a pairing is not considered to be illegal in future rounds.

Phil Bourke
19-05-2007, 02:01 AM
F.2
Byes, and pairing not actually played, or lost by one of the players due to arriving late or not at all, will not be taken into account with respect to colour, Such a pairing is not considered to be illegal in future rounds.
Thanks GG. Who would have thought there would be anything relevant in "Final Remarks" :) Indicative of my chess :)

Garvinator
19-05-2007, 02:12 AM
Hi all,

I'm embarassed to have to ask this question, but as I have never done an arbiting training course and know only a moderate amount about SwissPerfect I thought I should double-check things. That is what this thread is for, so everyone can learn :).


Case#1: a player rang our d.o.p. just before the round started to advise that they were sick. this explanation was accepted as genuine. because of the lateness of the notification, the d.o.p. decided that his opponent who DID turn up should get a full point, whereas the sick player should not receive a point for that round.

In this case for a club event, I would award the person who turned up their full point and the person who rang before hand a half point bye.

As the no-show rang before hand, was there an option to re pair the draw so the person who did attend still got a game?


Case #2: a player simply "didn't turn up" for their final round game, with no notification to the d.o.p. at all. his opponent, who DID turn up and who had White, played 1.c4 and started the clock. player who didn't turn up lost on time.This is a + / - .
If this wasn't a final round game and you had odd numbers for the next round, I would be giving the no show the bye in the next round and awarding it as a zero point bye.

Kevin Bonham
19-05-2007, 02:56 AM
This is a + / - .
If this wasn't a final round game and you had odd numbers for the next round, I would be giving the no show the bye in the next round and awarding it as a zero point bye.

Or you could even chuck them out of the tournament on the spot:


Unless the rules of the tournament state otherwise:

F.8 Players who are absent during a round without notification to the arbiter will be considered to have withdrawn themselves.

Garvinator
19-05-2007, 06:21 PM
Or you could even chuck them out of the tournament on the spot:
Just when I thought I might actually get a reply saying that I was getting soft for awarding a half point bye, I get told that I should be stricter on a related issue :P

Kevin Bonham
19-05-2007, 06:36 PM
Naah, I'm not telling you off for it at all. I've noticed many arbiters don't use F8 or are discretional about it. Obviously if it is not the player's fault that they failed to appear and could not notify, then they should not be thrown out.

Denis_Jessop
19-05-2007, 11:07 PM
Naah, I'm not telling you off for it at all. I've noticed many arbiters don't use F8 or are discretional about it. Obviously if it is not the player's fault that they failed to appear and could not notify, then they should not be thrown out.

When I was organising tournaments and being the arbiter, I always put a rule in the tournament rules that modified F8 to allow a person with a reasonable excuse to avoid being expelled from the tournament as, in one-round-a-week events as these were, a person can find themselves caught in an awkward position at the last moment and be unable to notify the arbiter.

DJ

Spiny Norman
20-05-2007, 03:06 PM
I'm finding the Case #2 view surprising. A move was played on the board (1.c4). Why is it any different to any other loss on time? If Black had turned up any time during the next hour he would have been allowed to play. So why, at the conclusion of the hour, do we all of a sudden rule that the game has not started?

Bill Gletsos
20-05-2007, 03:33 PM
I'm finding the Case #2 view surprising. A move was played on the board (1.c4). Why is it any different to any other loss on time?The fact a move is made is irrelevant as the player present could have been black. The issue is that the player did not actually turn up to play. As such he forfeted.
Article 6.7
Any player who arrives at the chessboard more than one hour after the scheduled start of the session shall lose the game unless the rules of the competition specify or the arbiter decides otherwise.

If Black had turned up any time during the next hour he would have been allowed to play. So why, at the conclusion of the hour, do we all of a sudden rule that the game has not started?The game started. In fact even if both players are absent the game is started by the arbiter who should start the clock of the white player.

Article 6.5
At the time determined for the start of the game the clock of the player who has the white pieces is started.

Article 6.6
If neither player is present initially, the player who has the white pieces shall lose all the time that elapses until he arrives; unless the rules of the competition specify or the arbiter decides otherwise..

If both players fail to turn up they both lose the game even though black has not exceed the time limit.

Spiny Norman
20-05-2007, 04:09 PM
I see what you're saying now ... thanks Bill.