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weadley
15-05-2004, 03:28 AM
Here is a game I played on ICC handle weadley.
It can be viewed in my library too.
I played this before I had ever downloaded CBlight or my ebook on morphy.
I only realized a few nights ago that this game is an exact recreation of a famous morphy game!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4 4.dxe5 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 dxe5 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Qb3 Qe7 8.Nc3 c6 9.Bg5 b5 10.Nxb5 cxb5 11.Bxb5+ Nbd7 12.0-0-0 Rd8 13.Rxd7 Rxd7 14.Rd1 Qe6 15.Bxd7+ Nxd7 16.Qb8+ Nxb8 17.Rd8# 1-0

weadley
15-05-2004, 03:36 AM
Just for the record:

1. Im a low rated player who sometimes makes some good moves.
2. When I sacked the knight I did not see a win. I had just been sacking lately
in hopes of a better postition.
3. I did not see a win until I sacrifced the queen.
4. I made all the right moves but for all the wrong reasons!

Rincewind
15-05-2004, 10:02 AM
Here is a game I played on ICC handle weadley.
It can be viewed in my library too.
I played this before I had ever downloaded CBlight or my ebook on morphy.
I only realized a few nights ago that this game is an exact recreation of a famous morphy game!

That's incredible!

weadley
16-05-2004, 03:22 AM
Thanks Barry!

I was experimenting at the time with sacrifices. Usually just random dumping of pieces into the fray just to see what happens. I certainly didnt see a mate until I had mate in 2 and I thought the queen sacrifice was rouge to draw the enemy knight away when in fact it FORCED the knight to take.But Ill take the win just the same!!!

PS this is a great BB you all have here. I hope to learn alot.

Trent Parker
18-05-2004, 04:02 PM
I've been sac ing alot lately myself, especially playing with BDG or playing against the KID. mmmmm i love smashing the KID..... :evil:

BrainsUK
27-05-2004, 06:19 AM
The Philidor as white rules! :)

ketchuplover
08-06-2004, 07:35 AM
awesome job. perhaps you're the second coming of herr Morphy :D

ketchuplover
08-06-2004, 12:14 PM
Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd post a game here. Don't blink or you'll miss it! I don't know how to create a board so I'll just type the moves. comments and helpful advice are welcome.

I'm playing white. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.Bxd5 Bg4 9. RESIGNS

Kevin Bonham
08-06-2004, 03:46 PM
This is the Wilkes-Barre variation in the Two Knights. Lots of fun for Black.

5.Nxf7 is commonly played, but biting off more than White can chew. White should play 5.Bxf7+ which is safer.

White normally plays 8.exd5 or maybe 8.Be2 or 8.Qf3 rather than 8.Bxd5. However Black is doing better in all cases.

Resigning after 8...Bg4 seems a bit early to me. Sure Black is winning the queen, but at least play 9.Kxf2 Bxd1 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Rxd1 and make Black work for it. White's clearly losing, but unless Black is very strong, a rook and a piece for a queen (effectively - the WN on h8 is doomed) isn't hopeless odds.

JGB
08-06-2004, 03:55 PM
Here is a game I played on ICC handle weadley.
It can be viewed in my library too.
I played this before I had ever downloaded CBlight or my ebook on morphy.
I only realized a few nights ago that this game is an exact recreation of a famous morphy game!




For the record I would like to hear from one of the mathematic experts here and find out what the chances of this are? Its a little difficult to digest, sorry. :hmm: (I know the answer is probably impossible to find but it is no doubt almost impossible)

Can I ask then why you played 8. Nc3 and not 8. Bxf7 + ... winning the rook? (This was for the mastery of the game by Morphy he didnt take the Rook he continued with development; even Fritz wants to play eat the f7 pawn and the rook with complications but a definate advantage. Can I ask why you did not play that Weadley?

JGB
08-06-2004, 03:58 PM
...by the way this is argaubly the most well known game in all of chess history, so is it not possible that you have seen it before and just forgot who played it etc ?

Rincewind
08-06-2004, 06:25 PM
For the record I would like to hear from one of the mathematic experts here and find out what the chances of this are? Its a little difficult to digest, sorry. :hmm: (I know the answer is probably impossible to find but it is no doubt almost impossible)

Assume two chimpanzees were trained to play legal chess moves but choose between all legal moves with equal probability. Now assume the number of legal moves in the first 17 moves of a game averages around 20 (this is probably low but will do).

Then the chance of the chimpanzees replaying the famous Morphy game of 33 half moves (17 white/16 black) is 1 : 20^33 or roughly 1 in 8 followed by 42 zeroes.

Not impossible but certainly highly improbably. Lets assume they could play a game every second, that many games would take around 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 millenia to get through.

Now most people play better than chimps so lets assume 4 reasonable moves for any position (this is really low I think but counters the effects of transpositions which I am ignoring in these calculations) then the averages would improve to only 1 in 73,786,976,294,838,206,464. Now you're down to only 2,339,769,669 millennia and one game per second. That's much better. ;)

Kevin Bonham
08-06-2004, 06:41 PM
He says it's in his "library" on ICC, does that mean he played it there? If so it could be verified that he at least played it.

I was curious to see how far people do go down the Morphy-D+C game line in serious play. On chessbase the closest I found was a resignation by Black one move before the end. There were two others that deviated a few moves out. Incidentally the latest position after which Black has done anything but lose on chessbase is after 7.Qb3 - White has scored a miserably low +62=2-5 (91%) here. After 7...Qe7 White has 16/16. Six Whites followed Morphy's 8.Nc3, nine played 8.Qxb7 (I'm pleased to say none of the Blacks were repeat offenders, unlike some of my opponents) and nobody played 8.Bxf7+. I recall someone here (feldgrau I think) saying 8.Bxf7+ was wrong but not explaining why. I wonder ...

I can well believe a player who knew the game would replicate it against a sufficiently weak opponent (I think someone else here mentioned doing just that.) I would be more surprised if a player who did not know the game did so.

JGB
08-06-2004, 06:47 PM
Thanks for your help Kevin.

I am sure (almost) that all of these games you found over chessbase were played by players (at least from the white side anyway) who have played through the Morphy game and most who have it memorised.

ketchuplover
08-06-2004, 07:51 PM
This is the Wilkes-Barre variation in the Two Knights. Lots of fun for Black.

5.Nxf7 is commonly played, but biting off more than White can chew. White should play 5.Bxf7+ which is safer.

White normally plays 8.exd5 or maybe 8.Be2 or 8.Qf3 rather than 8.Bxd5. However Black is doing better in all cases.

Resigning after 8...Bg4 seems a bit early to me. Sure Black is winning (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=73,24562764,chesschat.org,0) the queen, but at least play 9.Kxf2 Bxd1 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Rxd1 and make Black work for it. White's clearly losing, but unless Black is very strong, a rook and a piece for a queen (effectively - the WN on h8 is doomed) isn't hopeless odds.
I do tend to overreact at times. Thanks for the tip :cool: :doh:

Kevin Bonham
08-06-2004, 08:18 PM
I am sure (almost) that all of these games you found over chessbase were played by players (at least from the white side anyway) who have played through the Morphy game and most who have it memorised.

I think this is likely from the White side at least because none of the Whites who followed Morphy's 8.Nc3 deviated from the Morphy game before their opponents.

Still, there's nothing new under the sun and mistakes can be repeated in the absence of knowing any better. Here's an opening trap I fell into in a horrible upset loss many years ago:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Ne2 dxe4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Nxc3 Nf6 7.Bg5 Nc6 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Nxe4 Qd5 11.Nxf6+ gxf6 12.Bxf6 Qxg2 {And here I am feeling that Black is doing pretty well after 13.Rf1 Ba6 when after a few minutes White played ...} 13.Qf3!! {Aaaaargh.} 13...Qg6 14.0-0-0 Qh6+ 15.Kb1 Re8 16.Rhg1+ Kf8 17.Bg7+ {and Black soon resigned}

Just as well I was already out of contention in that tournament. :hmm:

White, who was c.1500, had no idea this trap was theory but I later found this line, and some previous victims of it, in Neishtadt's "Catastrophe In The Opening".

JGB
08-06-2004, 08:52 PM
Yeah thats just really lucky for your opponent. Im sure that hurt, when you found it he didn't know he was playing 'book' and just 'lucked' it!. :wall:

Kevin Bonham
08-06-2004, 10:38 PM
Nah, he deserved it, because while he didn't know the theory, he backed his intuitive judgement that I couldn't get away with being so greedy, and he was right. I think he saw Qf3 a few moves out and was just checking it was sound. And I should have known better - I was just thinking about moves and pieces on the board instead of just thinking "hogging the pawn like this must be unsound for a reason, or everyone would be doing it, and the whole thing even back as far as 4.Ne2 wouldn't be too flash."

When I saw it in the book months later my reaction was "doh!"

Rincewind
23-03-2005, 07:28 PM
Here is a game I played on ICC handle weadley.
It can be viewed in my library too.
I played this before I had ever downloaded CBlight or my ebook on morphy.
I only realized a few nights ago that this game is an exact recreation of a famous morphy game!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4 4.dxe5 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 dxe5 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Qb3 Qe7 8.Nc3 c6 9.Bg5 b5 10.Nxb5 cxb5 11.Bxb5+ Nbd7 12.0-0-0 Rd8 13.Rxd7 Rxd7 14.Rd1 Qe6 15.Bxd7+ Nxd7 16.Qb8+ Nxb8 17.Rd8# 1-0


Happy birthday, weadley. The second coming of Morphy. ;)

Comrade
25-04-2005, 11:06 PM
That's incredible!

Actually this same game was repeated at the Logan City Chess Club in Queensland about five years ago, with the only difference that the player of the White pieces knew of the famous Morphy game :)

Basil
30-07-2007, 12:27 AM
Here is a game I played on ICC handle weadley.
It can be viewed in my library too.
I played this before I had ever downloaded CBlight or my ebook on morphy.
I only realized a few nights ago that this game is an exact recreation of a famous morphy game!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4 4.dxe5 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 dxe5 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Qb3 Qe7 8.Nc3 c6 9.Bg5 b5 10.Nxb5 cxb5 11.Bxb5+ Nbd7 12.0-0-0 Rd8 13.Rxd7 Rxd7 14.Rd1 Qe6 15.Bxd7+ Nxd7 16.Qb8+ Nxb8 17.Rd8# 1-0

I believe you, weadley. Why not? Caaarn, James. Have you mellowed with years? ;)

Capablanca-Fan
30-07-2007, 01:11 AM
I think this is likely from the White side at least because none of the Whites who followed Morphy's 8.Nc3 deviated from the Morphy game before their opponents.

I've played the same game in a Logan club tourney, and of course knew the Morphy game. All the same, I think if two modern GMs had this position without any prior knowledge of Morphy, they would play 8.Qxb7 Qb4+ 9. Qxb4 with an easy and sure win in the endgame (for a GM). White has an extra pawn, B-pair, and Black has ruptured Q-side pawns. Morphy wanted a quick win so he could see the opera!


1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Ne2 dxe4 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Nxc3 Nf6 7.Bg5 Nc6 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Nxe4 Qd5 11.Nxf6+ gxf6 12.Bxf6 Qxg2 {And here I am feeling that Black is doing pretty well after 13.Rf1 Ba6 when after a few minutes White played ...} 13.Qf3!! {Aaaaargh.} 13...Qg6 14.0-0-0 Qh6+ 15.Kb1 Re8 16.Rhg1+ Kf8 17.Bg7+ {and Black soon resigned}

Just as well I was already out of contention in that tournament. :hmm:

White, who was c.1500, had no idea this trap was theory but I later found this line, and some previous victims of it, in Neishtadt's "Catastrophe In The Opening".
Irving Chernev called this combination from another opening the Pittsburgh Trap (http://www.chesscircle.net/forums/general-chess-forum/4019-pittsburgh-trap-with-pgn.html), but I dunno why. An old game with this trap in the notes is Pillsbury vs Lee, London 1899 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1109174).

Capablanca-Fan
30-07-2007, 01:22 AM
Can I ask then why you played 8. Nc3 and not 8. Bxf7 + ... winning the rook? (This was for the mastery of the game by Morphy he didnt take the Rook he continued with development; even Fritz wants to play eat the f7 pawn and the rook with complications but a definate advantage. Can I ask why you did not play that Weadley?

Not so simple. Edward Lasker in an old teaching book gave 8. Bxf7+ Qxf7 9. Qxb7 Bc5 10. Qxa8 0-0 and White's Q might be cut off with c6, Qc7, N moves; and if 11. Qb7 then Bxf2+. 10. Qc8+ winning the other R is also possible, but Black could stir up some trouble since he is now the one with the development while White's Q is out of play.

Capablanca-Fan
02-08-2007, 12:04 PM
[re KB's game] Irving Chernev called this combination from another opening the Pittsburgh Trap (http://www.chesscircle.net/forums/general-chess-forum/4019-pittsburgh-trap-with-pgn.html), but I dunno why. An old game with this trap in the notes is Pillsbury vs Lee, London 1899 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1109174).

Well well, on the way to his 3rd GM norm, Smurf scored a nice win with a variant of this trap http://www.chessvibes.com/?p=1080#more-1080 (thanx to Johanath (http://chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=163293&postcount=135)).