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Desmond
22-03-2007, 12:33 AM
I understand that a recent change to the FIDE laws is that a player may not record their own move before is is made. My question is: what should a player do if their opponent persists in the practice, and what are the consequences?

Kevin Bonham
22-03-2007, 12:39 AM
A player whose opponent persists and who objects to the practice should complain to the arbiter as they would about anything else. The arbiter may dismiss the complaint for lack of evidence if they haven't been watching, but at least that player is on the radar then.

The consequences are whatever the arbiter wants them to be out of the standard list of possible penalties and actions. It is a relatively mild offence but there has been some time now for awareness to sink in that this practice is verboten, and players may gain unfair advantages on the clock as well as (in the case of those who change their moves) using the practice to make notes.

I'd personally apply time penalties after, say, third offence; forfeit for anyone who was doing it practically every move or who was deliberately ignoring warnings.

Garvinator
22-03-2007, 12:49 AM
Hopefully the Fide rules commission will lay down set penalties at the next rules review.

Kevin Bonham
22-03-2007, 12:52 AM
Hopefully the Fide rules commission will lay down set penalties at the next rules review.

Extremely unlikely I would say. There are so few offences for which they specify set penalties, mainly because all offences have their shades and prescribing a standard penalty would obstruct the use of an arbiter's best judgement about a particular offence. Or that's their excuse anyway.

Bill Gletsos
22-03-2007, 12:52 AM
Hopefully the Fide rules commission will lay down set penalties at the next rules review.Don't hold your breath.

Desmond
22-03-2007, 12:53 AM
Regarding the unfair advantages that Kevin mentions, I would add that my main problem with the practice is that I find it distracting. I find myself trying to read what move the opponent has written down, and it just disrupts my thoughts.

Basil
22-03-2007, 12:55 AM
Regarding the unfair advantages that Kevin mentions, I would add that my main problem with the practice is that I find it distracting. I find myself trying to read what move the opponent has written down, and it just disrupts my thoughts.

:eek: Only a leftie could complain of an ungotten gain not being able to be fully utilised. Nothing better than beating the system, right! :)

CameronD
22-03-2007, 01:46 PM
Salutations

I see my opponents do this often (5% of opponents), so its still very prevelent though I've never complained about it). The only advantage I see is to use as a reminder. ie - a piece is attacked so I have to move it... write down a move as a reminder of this and then think of other options/move.

In my experience there are two types.
1. Those who write the move and then make it nearly straight away. I have no problem with this and in my experience its older adults doing this from custom.

2. Those who write a move, then erase them constantly. I have a problem with this for the reason stated before. Usually they do this for around 20% of the moves and think for minutes after. My experience is that this happens from young junior players.

There is an easy way for FIDE to stop this. Require the use of a pen (not pencil) and insert a rule making a written move binding if written before the move is made on the board.

ps- Please don't make a junior/adults issue out of this, its just my experience and makes no difference to the argument wheather its a junior or senior.

Capablanca-Fan
04-04-2007, 10:03 AM
There is a penalty for refusing to obey the laws of chess, not for inadvertently failing to follow them. Many people were trained to write down their move first, after Kotov's Think Like a Grandmaster and Webb's Chess for Tigers, so this habit will be hard to break. So Kevin Bonham's suggestion seems reasonable.

As a player, if an opponent uses this now illegal practice, should I inform them on my own time that the rules have been changed, or go to the arbiter first?

bergil
04-04-2007, 10:19 AM
Regarding the unfair advantages that Kevin mentions, I would add that my main problem with the practice is that I find it distracting. I find myself trying to read what move the opponent has written down, and it just disrupts my thoughts.May I suggest you stop trying to be so inquisitive and just worry about your own game? ;)

Trent Parker
04-04-2007, 10:45 AM
There is a penalty for refusing to obey the laws of chess, not for inadvertently failing to follow them. Many people were trained to write down their move first, after Kotov's Think Like a Grandmaster and Webb's Chess for Tigers, .

Very true. It took me a while to ween myself off of the practice but the rule has been in force for so long now i would have thought it would have been common practice.


As a player, if an opponent uses this now illegal practice, should I inform them on my own time that the rules have been changed, or go to the arbiter first?

Yeah I have come accross a couple of people who have written down their moves before they make them.... Result...... I crushed them like a bug! (they were lower rated than I :D )

Desmond
04-04-2007, 10:52 AM
May I suggest you stop trying to be so inquisitive and just worry about your own game? ;)No, you may not. :P

ER
28-04-2007, 04:51 AM
Are Australian Tournament participants allowed to use foreign (other than English) languages to complete their score sheets?
Cheers and good luck!

Denis_Jessop
28-04-2007, 12:12 PM
Are Australian Tournament participants allowed to use foreign (other than English) languages to complete their score sheets?
Cheers and good luck!

I don't know if the question has arisen but the FIDE Laws (Appendix E) state "For the first letter of the name of a piece, each player is free to use the first letter of the name which is commonly used in his country." (Art.E3.)

DJ

arosar
28-04-2007, 03:25 PM
Doesn't Johansen write his moves in Russian?

AR

Phil Bourke
28-04-2007, 03:33 PM
Are Australian Tournament participants allowed to use foreign (other than English) languages to complete their score sheets?
Cheers and good luck!
They haven't been able to decipher what language Gary Lane is using to record his moves on the scoresheet :hmm: Apparently his handwriting is illegible to most people :)
I have also heard that Johansen records his games in Russian, though I am a bit worried that it was Amiel that told me this. :rolleyes:

arosar
28-04-2007, 03:35 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he does. I checked this at Doeberl and the first characters he wrote were Russian. And I think it's also mentioned in Chua's book (I think).

AR

Denis_Jessop
28-04-2007, 08:41 PM
When my computer prints the English version of games on "e3 - e5" the piece indicators are all money signs like pounds and yen but they are consistent. :hmm:

DJ

Capablanca-Fan
29-04-2007, 09:49 AM
I don't know if the question has arisen but the FIDE Laws (Appendix E) state "For the first letter of the name of a piece, each player is free to use the first letter of the name which is commonly used in his country." (Art.E3.)

"Free to use" is not the same as "must use", so GM Johansen is not violating any laws by using Russian notation.

Bill Gletsos
29-04-2007, 01:36 PM
"Free to use" is not the same as "must use", so GM Johansen is not violating any laws by using Russian notation.Denis didnt say they were the same.

Bill Gletsos
29-04-2007, 01:42 PM
The official language of the Laws of Chess is English.
Article E1 of the Laws lists the English letters for the pieces.
Article E2 states a player can use the first letter of the name which is commonly used in his country.

In an English speaking country the commonly used lettering would be those indicated in Article E1.

Thus an argument could be put that only English lettering would be allowed in England, Australia etc.

However Article E2 uses the phrase "commonly used in his country", which is in and of itself ambiguous.
What does this really mean?
Does it refer to the players country of birth?
Is it the country where he is a citizen/resident?
Does it refer to the country where he learned to play chess?

All this shows is that once again the language used in the laws is imprecise.

What we should be able to draw from this and should be abundantly clear to all is that no competent arbiter is going to penalise a player for using letters for the pieces that are valid in any FIDE recognised federation.

ER
29-04-2007, 01:52 PM
Question answered
Ty Bill
Cheers and good luck!

Kevin Bonham
29-04-2007, 07:46 PM
However Article E2 uses the phrase "commonly used in his country", which is in and of itself ambiguous.
What does this really mean?
Does it refer to the players country of birth?
Is it the country where he is a citizen/resident?
Does it refer to the country where he learned to play chess?

In the absence of any indication to the contrary I would be inclined to accept any of these or any other genuine reason for scoring in a language other than English.

Capablanca-Fan
29-04-2007, 11:45 PM
Denis didnt say they were the same.
I didn't say he did.

Bill Gletsos
30-04-2007, 01:39 AM
I didn't say he did.You implied it, by quoting his post.

Capablanca-Fan
30-04-2007, 10:50 AM
You implied it, by quoting his post.
No, you merely inferred it.

Bill Gletsos
30-04-2007, 01:45 PM
No, you merely inferred it.If you did not intend to imply it then you should have been more explicit. :hand:

Desmond
30-04-2007, 01:53 PM
Is it just me, or is this getting a little silly?

Spiny Norman
04-05-2007, 11:30 AM
Its just you ... and stop calling me Shirley. ;)

Basil
04-05-2007, 01:12 PM
Its just you ... and stop calling me Shirley. ;)
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http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=4937