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Bill Gletsos
18-04-2004, 02:59 PM
Don't be shy, post it in the Games and Analysis section so we can all enjoy it. :p Or is it up on the Doeberl site?

Amazingly enough in all my tournament experience I've only "sacced" my queen once. And even then it wasn't a real sac but rather a combo where I knew that when everything came out in the wash I would be at least the exchange up.
Does this count as a real queen sac.

28.... Bxf4 29.Nf6+ Qxf6 30.gxf6 Nxg3+ 31.Kg2 Nxh1 32.Kxh1 Bg5 33.Rg2 Bxf6 34.Qe3 Re7 35.Qf4 Bd4 36.Qg5 Re1+ 37.Kh2 Re5 38.Qf4 Rxh5+ 0-1

Kevin Bonham
18-04-2004, 09:14 PM
Technically I'd also call that a combo because after giving up the Q Black obtains a net material advantage (RBB for Q) by force through moves that can be calculated OTB, even though he doesn't get the Q back.

Can't remember where I first saw this alleged distinction between combos and "real sacrifices" mentioned. It's a blurry one.

My comment about having only given up my queen as a combo once was limited to rated tournaments. In a blitz event this year I left my queen en prise four times - twice each in two seperate games. In all cases the queen offer was sound :) and declined :( .

Lucena
19-04-2004, 11:23 AM
Does this count as a real queen sac.

1.... Bxf4 2.Nf6+ Qxf6 3.gxf6 Nxg3+ 4.Kg2 Nxh1 5.Kxh1 Bg5 6.Rg2 Bxf6 7.Qe3 Re7 8.Qf4 Bd4 9.Qg5 Re1+ 10.Kh2 Re5 11.Qf4 Rxh5+ 1-0

I think that should be 0-1 and yes I think it does count

Bill Gletsos
19-04-2004, 12:05 PM
I think that should be 0-1 and yes I think it does count
Yes. I fixed it.

Kevin Bonham
19-04-2004, 10:31 PM
Bill, was that one of yours?

This was mine, which was a similar kind of thing except that it gets the Q itself back:

1...Bxf1 2.Rxd4 Qxd4 3.Bxd4 Re1 4.h4 Be2+ 5.Kg2 Bxf3 6.Kxf3+ {and Black floundered around for a while but eventually won}

It was in the last round of an event where I had been destroyed by a slightly weaker opponent who continually sacrificed pieces every half-dozen moves or so in round 2, so I was playing catchup. As I recall I won about $120 for winning this game while my opponent, who had led by 1.5 points with 2 rounds to go, got nothing instead of getting about $200 for a win or $160 for a draw, so I imagine that this was all a bit painful for him. Qe4 instead of h4 allows White to lose only one exchange, and I think he later gets a pawn back as well, but Black is still clearly better.

Bill Gletsos
20-04-2004, 12:22 AM
Bill, was that one of yours?
Yes, played back in 1992 at the time control of 40 in 90 and 30 to finish.

Alan Shore
20-04-2004, 01:53 AM
Yes, played back in 1992 at the time control of 40 in 90 and 30 to finish.

When was the last time you played a tournament Bill? I always find it curious the number of chess administrators that never play any more..

Lucena
20-04-2004, 09:06 AM
How did you change your title to Black mage, "Bruce"?

Thunk
20-04-2004, 09:56 AM
When was the last time you played a tournament Bill? I always find it curious the number of chess administrators that never play any more..

or EvEn morE curious arE thosE who drift towards talking about chEss administration on thE bullEtin board

:rolleyes: ;) thE HUNK ;) :rolleyes:

Alan Shore
20-04-2004, 03:40 PM
How did you change your title to Black mage, "Bruce"?

Gareth, you need at least 200 posts, then it appears in your User Options.

Bill Gletsos
20-04-2004, 03:51 PM
When was the last time you played a tournament Bill? I always find it curious the number of chess administrators that never play any more..
I played a rapid at the start of the year.
Also in my club champ last year and two rapids last year.

Lucena
21-04-2004, 11:53 AM
Gareth, you need at least 200 posts, then it appears in your User Options.
oh well that's a fair way away for me :doh: oh well at least it wasn't 500

shaun
21-04-2004, 12:33 PM
White: Milan Ninchich
Black: Shaun Press
Place: Belconnen CC Round: 7 Year: 1994

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Ke2
Nd4+ 7.Kd3 b5 8.Nxd8 bxc4+ 9.Kc3 Nxe4+ 10.Kb4 Rb8+ 11.Ka3
Nb5+ 12.Ka4 Nc5+ 13.Ka5 Nd6 14.Qh5+ Kxd8 15.Qg5+ Ke8
16.Qxe5+ Ne6 17.Nc3 Bc5 18.Re1 Rb6 19.Qxc5 Nb7+ 20.Ka4
Nxc5+ 21.Ka3 c6 22.b3 cxb3 23.axb3 Ra6+ 24.Na4 Kd8 25.Bb2
Rf8 26.Re2 Rf4 27.d4 Nxd4 28.Bxd4 Rxd4 29.c3 Nxa4 0-1

Kevin Bonham
21-04-2004, 01:54 PM
That, on the other hand, is what I think of as a fully fledged queen sac. Black goes down material overall (two pieces and a pawn for the queen) for massive strategic compensation in the form of a groggy white king up against the rope. So perish all Whites who play 5.Nxf7? (6.Ke2's not too flash either).

weadley
15-05-2004, 05:05 AM
Call me a noobie but how is a discovered attack on your queen while your being checked and forced to take the knight and lose your queen a queen sacrifice?

Excuse me if im being a chess sucker!

Kevin Bonham
15-05-2004, 10:51 PM
Call me a noobie but how is a discovered attack on your queen while your being checked and forced to take the knight and lose your queen a queen sacrifice?

A sacrifice can be "active" or "passive". You can give up the piece or you can leave it to die, and it's the same thing because you lose the material in either case. In Bill's game ...Bxf4 was a passive queen sacrifice offer because it allowed White to "win" the queen.

weadley
16-05-2004, 03:32 AM
Thanks Goose! I see that now that he took with the bishop to allow the discovered attack on the queen. I didnt see that the game was won either till I looked again.
I had better make sure I study these postitions longer before for I post my foot into my mouth. heheheheh

Thats a good looking move!

Garvinator
16-05-2004, 06:45 AM
Thanks Goose! I see that now that he took with the bishop to allow the discovered attack on the queen. I didnt see that the game was won either till I looked again.
I had better make sure I study these postitions longer before for I post my foot into my mouth. heheheheh

Thats a good looking move!
oh dear you have been busy reading posts havent you weadley, you know the catch word already ;) :lol:

Bill Gletsos
16-05-2004, 01:26 PM
oh dear you have been busy reading posts havent you weadley, you know the catch word already ;) :lol:
Actually I assumed he just took the word from Kevin's title as the GooseMaster.

JGB
01-06-2004, 11:29 PM
Im not sure if I should post this under Swindles, although i did not win, I did get draw from a totally lost position. After a Caro Kann game where I was wasted in the opening this is the remains of our position after Blacks 24th move.

[Event "Bad Wörishofen 2004"]
[White "Bonning, James"]
[Black "Mittelbachert, Ulrich"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B16"]

25. f5 Re5 26. fxe6 Rxe2 27.
exf7 Bxg3+ 28. Kh3 Bxf2 29. f8=Q+ Kd7 30. Qd6+ Ke8 31. Qb8+ Kf7 32. Qxb7+ Re7
33. Qb3+ Kg7 34. Rxf2 Qh1+ 35. Kg3 Qe4 36. Qf3 Qd4 37. Kg2 Re3 38. Qf4 1/2-1/2

I knew the bishop sac was coming, and that I could not accept it, but I still liked my chances to draw. Its actually still lost after my Queen sac but I believe its gives me the best chances (and the win is not easy for black to find) even though Fritz 8 hates it and wants me to play 26.Qd3; in which blacks pawns are just going to march home. In our post game anaysis we found that 35. Kh8 wins for black but its not such an easy move to find OTB!

JGB
02-06-2004, 03:47 PM
Actually that was the 2nd Swindle I pulled off in that tournament... but thats another story... :lol:

Aaron Guthrie
29-03-2007, 02:12 PM
The Q sac is on move 30. My friend said they couldn't get positions like this from their openings. I said all you have to do is play moves like Na3, Kf1, Rh3, Ng1. I have analysis on this which I didn't post, but it is quite extensive.

Aaron Guthrie Vs Srboljub Zaric
Adelaide Cup Weekender

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Be2 f5 7.Na3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Kf1 Bxa3 10.bxa3 Nge7 11.Rb1 b6 12.Bg5 Rc8 13.h4 Na5 14.Rh3 Rc3 15.Ng1 Rxh3 16.Bh5+ Kf8 17.Nxh3 Nc4 18.Qc1 Qc8 19.Rb3 Be8 20.Rg3 Ng6 21.Be2 h6 22.Bd2 Nxh4 23.Bb4+ Kg8 24.Nf4 Kh7 25.Be7 Ng6 26.Nh5 Nd6 27.Rc3 Nc4 28.Rg3 f4 29.Qxf4 Rf8 30.Bxf8 Nxf4 31.Rxg7+ Kh8 32.Nf6 Nd2+ 33.Kg1 Nxe2+ 34.Kh2 Nf1+ 35.Kh1 Nfg3+ 36.Kh2 Nf1+ 37.Kh1 Nfg3+ 1/2-1/2

Basil
29-03-2007, 03:03 PM
Nice. Pleasure to watch.

Aaron Guthrie
29-03-2007, 11:57 PM
Nice. Pleasure to watch.Thanks. I had a way to play on near the end. I can play Kh3 instead of Kh1. I was down to the increment at this point (10 sec a move I think), and wasn't so sure about it so I didn't. At home with the help of fritz I found the line that leads to the clear advantage Knight ending :)

Capablanca-Fan
06-04-2007, 04:33 PM
Technically I'd also call that a combo because after giving up the Q Black obtains a net material advantage (RBB for Q) by force through moves that can be calculated OTB, even though he doesn't get the Q back.

Yeah, hard to call it a "sac" when it wins material rather than losing it. Is it a pawn sac when the result is winning a piece?