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Basil
16-09-2006, 06:44 PM
Came across this (its listed in Ian's profile). Its not going to set the world on fire, so keep your expectations real, however I'd like to say that IMHO this is the best laid-out chess web page I have come across. Good content - clean - well maintained.

Ian, if you read this, suggest you rejig to lose unused space to some degree.

:clap:

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/

pax
16-09-2006, 09:49 PM
Came across this (its listed in Ian's profile). Its not going to set the world on fire, so keep your expectations real, however I'd like to say that IMHO this is the best laid-out chess web page I have come across. Good content - clean - well maintained.

Ian, if you read this, suggest you rejig to lose unused space to some degree.

:clap:

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/

The content is great, but I don't like the layout.

It doesn't display properly in Firefox, and it's a bit silly that you have to click on the tiny buttons to follow links.

Basil
17-09-2006, 12:44 AM
One small point!

On this page:
http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/miscellaneous/ActLikeAGrandmaster.htm
The last bullet point in the first section states:
Chess players are not all ugly, short-sighted, socially inept, introverted, mentally unbalanced and unpopular.

Well

I beg to differ.

bergil
17-09-2006, 12:58 AM
One small point!

On this page:
http://www.netspeed.com.au/ianandjan/IansPage/miscellaneous/ActLikeAGrandmaster.htm
The last bullet point in the first section states:
Chess players are not all ugly, short-sighted, socially inept, introverted, mentally unbalanced and unpopular.

Well

I beg to differ.Hey! Oh wait that's me :oops:

Ian Rout
18-09-2006, 10:03 AM
Thanks for the comments. I should explain that being purely an amateur my primary aim is functionality rather than prettiness. (One of my pet hates is tournament websites where you can't find the tournament table or draw. There's no mention of it on the front page, which is given over entirely to self-congratulatory waffle about the tournament and its organisers, and the information you want could be on any of several poorly labelled and barely visible links.) Of course the two are not always mutually exclusive and things can always be done better so I do rearrange it from time to time.

It doesn't display properly in Firefox, and it's a bit silly that you have to click on the tiny buttons to follow links.
The purpose of the buttons is to allow colour coding so as to identify which are tournament tables, which the current events etc (historically the purpose of the page was just to consolidate and provide a repository of tournament scores which went out on the ACT mailing list). I tossed up about making the tournament names clickable as well and came down against it on the bases that it makes editing more difficult (obviously the page is updated often); it makes it less obvious what is and isn't clickable; and it increases the risk of accidentally clicking the wrong place while mousing around. But it's something I might re-think at some point, there's more than one way to do these things.

On the other hand I would respectfully disagree on the first point. The wording I would use is "Firefox won't display the page properly", rather than wording it as a fault of the page. Even if I knew why and could fix it there would still be the prospect that the next version of Firefox won't load it, or that LizardBreath, FruitBat, CustardTart and all the other anti-Microsofts won't work. While I suspect that at least some of the claimed benefits of the alternative browsers are genuine, if they are going to be an alternative they should have those benefits in addition to browsing, not instead of it. You wouldn't try to market a new brand of television that can't receive Channel Nine.

pax
18-09-2006, 02:44 PM
On the other hand I would respectfully disagree on the first point. The wording I would use is "Firefox won't display the page properly", rather than wording it as a fault of the page. Even if I knew why and could fix it there would still be the prospect that the next version of Firefox won't load it, or that LizardBreath, FruitBat, CustardTart and all the other anti-Microsofts won't work. While I suspect that at least some of the claimed benefits of the alternative browsers are genuine, if they are going to be an alternative they should have those benefits in addition to browsing, not instead of it. You wouldn't try to market a new brand of television that can't receive Channel Nine.

This is a whole can of worms, or course.

The Microsoft dominance in the browser sphere is a big problem, because IE simply doesn't follow the standards for HTML, CSS and Javascript. CSS compliance is something like 50% for IE, and over 90% for decent browsers like Firefox, Opera and Safari.

If your webpage complies with the current standards, you can be sure that current and future standards-compliant browsers will display it correctly. To find out if your page is standards-compliant, go here:
http://validator.w3.org/

Using IE is not an option for many web users, as it is buggy and full of security holes (having been abandoned by Microsoft for support for years), and lacks very basic functionality that is essential for many people these days (tabbed browsing, RSS feeds, CSS compliance). IE7 addresses some of this, but is still woeful in terms of standards compliance (mainly because it is stuck in a rut of attempting to comply with the legacy non-standards of IE4 IE5 and IE6).

Most browsers do a pretty thorough attempt at legacy compliance with a whole range of IE specific non-standards. Where they fail, it is usually because Microsoft is in conflict with the W3C standards.

I think the attitude of 'you must use X browser to view this page' is pretty outdated. You're entitled to it of course, but you simply have to be aware that that means that 20% of people won't use your website, or won't get the most out of it. Most modern sites do try to stick to the standards, or at least try to be compatible with the major browsers.

arosar
18-09-2006, 04:01 PM
I think it's a bit too much to expect Mr Rout here to follow the best practice W3C guidelines. I take his site to be mainly a personal website, thus I have no great expectations in terms of it looking nice with my FF browser. We can only be thankful that he's got that website running. I've used it for blogging info.

As someone who works in the "web development/design" field (though let me be clear that I'm not a tech developer), I advise marketing types on usability, accessibility, information architecture matters, so I'm very familiar with what you're talking about pax and I agree with those principles you speak of. But, as I said, it's just a personal website of Mr Rout's.

AR

pax
18-09-2006, 06:37 PM
I think it's a bit too much to expect Mr Rout here to follow the best practice W3C guidelines. ...

But, as I said, it's just a personal website of Mr Rout's.


Absolutely. I was just responding to Ian's philosophical point of whether the site fails to be compatible with Firefox, or does Firefox fail to display the site properly.

And to be honest, rather than testing for full W3C compatibility most people would just check that the site looks right in a few browsers.

Desmond
18-09-2006, 08:55 PM
Absolutely. I was just responding to Ian's philosophical point of whether the site fails to be compatible with Firefox, or does Firefox fail to display the site properly.

And to be honest, rather than testing for full W3C compatibility most people would just check that the site looks right in a few browsers.
Most people using Firefox would have an alternative browser installed for just such an occasion.

pax
19-09-2006, 12:01 AM
Most people using Firefox would have an alternative browser installed for just such an occasion.

It only works if you are using windows!

Firefox actually has an extension IEtab (windows only) that allows you to view the current tab using the IE renderer. It is useful for just this purpose. Non-firefox compatible pages are still a disincentive for people to visit your site.

Desmond
19-09-2006, 08:55 AM
It only works if you are using windows!wanna bet?


Firefox actually has an extension IEtab (windows only) that allows you to view the current tab using the IE renderer. It is useful for just this purpose. Non-firefox compatible pages are still a disincentive for people to visit your site.As does Netscape Nav.

Ian Rout
19-09-2006, 09:11 AM
Well I will have a look at Pax's verification site. If the problem is something trivial it would be churlish to deny all those Firefoxers the latest ACT tournament scores. If it's more complicated they will have to make a decision on the lesser evil.

pax
19-09-2006, 09:51 AM
wanna bet?


Ok, you can get it working on Linux with a lot of stuffing around in WINE. But it's a major pain.

Garvinator
19-09-2006, 01:33 PM
Well I will have a look at Pax's verification site. If the problem is something trivial it would be churlish to deny all those Firefoxers the latest ACT tournament scores.
I will give my experience in viewing your page Ian.

I am a firefox user and not an ie user. I have viewed the page in question quite a few times and only ever thought that there were links down the left hand side and at the bottom (using firefox).

Then when pax pointed out that the page doesnt display properly in firefox and does in ie, i went and tried the page in ie and low and behold, all the links are front and centre, instead of having to scroll to the bottom.

Now, silly as it may seem, I cant have been the only one caught by this for people who rarely if ever use ie.

Denis_Jessop
19-09-2006, 03:24 PM
Well I will have a look at Pax's verification site. If the problem is something trivial it would be churlish to deny all those Firefoxers the latest ACT tournament scores. If it's more complicated they will have to make a decision on the lesser evil.

Ian

I, being a browser freak and they're free, have used a whole heap of browsers in the past to view your site. As a Mac user, I have used IE, Netscape, Firefox, Opera, iCab and Safari. I doubt from memory if it has diplayed correctly other than on IE. At present due to a transitional computer situation and lack of HD space, I am using only Safari. The problem here is that the LH boxed links display first with a blank area to the right. You then get to the rest of the page by scrolling down but that rest chops off the bottom of the LH links above in midstream. I'm not sure if I'm missing anything. Otherwise it seems more an annoyance than a fatal flaw. I'm not a web designer's bootlace but I thought here was a means of designing web pages so that they were compatible with all browsers or at least all the common ones.

DJ

PS But keep it up. If the ACTCA webite was one tenth as good it would be Ok but actually it's U/S so you're a vital service to ACT chess and through it the world (with no apologies to the Canberra Times' slogan) :clap:

Basil
19-09-2006, 06:17 PM
Ian

I think these people are telling you that your page is a good one. They are just struggling to get the balance between conveying that and offering further advice.

I stand by my original statement in that I am yet to see a better one.

Good work.

Denis_Jessop
19-09-2006, 08:06 PM
Howard

Don't I get any HCDs for being a Mac user with 6 browsers? :(

DJ

arosar
19-09-2006, 08:25 PM
Howard

Don't I get any HCDs for being a Mac user with 6 browsers? :(

DJ

Do you have Lynx?

AR

Basil
19-09-2006, 10:21 PM
Howard
Don't I get any HCDs for being a Mac user with 6 browsers? :(
DJ

Denis, I would have paid big time, especially as your post also stated


At present due to a transitional computer situation and lack of HD space, I am using only Safari

but as you are yet to vote in the smoking poll, I am still considering my position :)

Denis_Jessop
19-09-2006, 10:36 PM
Do you have Lynx?

AR

No - but my Mac OSX is Tiger :)

DJ

harry
19-09-2006, 11:05 PM
Get with the program guys . yr browser wont display a page open it with another one . whats the problem :rolleyes:

Basil
19-09-2006, 11:08 PM
No - but my Mac OSX is Tiger :) DJ
OK, that was an exceptionally bad pun, Denis. Paying $10 HCDs
Being a mac user. Paying $50 HCDs
Less the Bergil begging fee (its law apparently) Minus 50%
Having Tiger installed: Paying $25 HCDs

10+50 = 60 - 50% = 30 + 25 = 55
Tote paying $55 HCDs

Desmond
20-09-2006, 09:24 AM
Get with the program guys . yr browser wont display a page open it with another one . whats the problem :rolleyes:
My point exactly.

Denis_Jessop
20-09-2006, 11:59 AM
OK, that was an exceptionally bad pun, Dennis. Paying $10 HCDs
Being a mac user. Paying $50 HCDs
Less the Bergil begging fee (its law apparently) Minus 50%
Having Tiger installed: Paying $25 HCDs

10+50 = 60 - 50% = 30 + 25 = 55
Tote paying $55 HCDs

Thanks Howard - much appreciated. I'm afraid I can't vote in your smoking poll because none of the options applies to me. I was a smoker but not addicted yet not actually social either. I gave it up about 30 years ago when I decided to start getting fit again and also caught a cold virus that made cigarettes and whisky taste unpleasant. Giving up whisky was not a reasonable option.

DJ

Basil
20-09-2006, 02:46 PM
I'm afraid I can't vote in your smoking poll because none of the options applies to me.

Yup, I picked you as trouble from the beginning, Jessop :D ... just like that crank Boris. We had to make a special ruling for him too:
http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=112666&postcount=18

I belive this amendment (post 18 in the thread) allows you to do your civic duty with a conscience clear.

Denis_Jessop
20-09-2006, 08:12 PM
Yup, I picked you as trouble from the beginning, Jessop :D ... just like that crank Boris. We had to make a special ruling for him too:
http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=112666&postcount=18

I belive this amendment (post 18 in the thread) allows you to do your civic duty with a conscience clear.

Just to remain off topic for a little longer, the amendment doesn't quite cover me as I was a non-addicted anti-social smoker. That is, I smoked most when playing chess thus contributing to an atmospheric fug in the Canberra Chess Club so thick that you could barely see the other end of the room.

By the way, could you please remind me what the point of the poll is - I can't quite make it out through all the smoke. :whistle:

DJ

Basil
20-09-2006, 09:43 PM
Just to remain off topic for a little longer...
Why not while there's a break in hostilities :P


the amendment doesn't quite cover me as I was a non-addicted anti-social smoker.
!!! $10 HCDs Quite the comedian :) Did you ever do your own advocacy, Denis?


By the way, could you please remind me what the point of the poll is
Point? Point? The futility of polls on this BB is more than adequately covered by Article 42. However I do confess to a certain mania attached to this poll ... the brotherhood (and sistas) appeals ... the universal evil ... a struggle of our time ... Axiom, get in here and spout some heart rending rhetoric crap ... the stuff you're excellent at :);)