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Kevin Bonham
29-08-2006, 01:59 AM
At the risk of giving credence to "only in Tasmania" lines, this actually happened in a rated game tonight. White is in the 1500s (with a bullet), Black is in the 1200s.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Bg4?? 4.Bxf7+ Black resigns in disgust 1-0

The point is 4...Kxf7 5.Ng5+ then taking the bishop - Black is a pawn down, can't castle and has a rather big hole on e6.

Rincewind
29-08-2006, 08:26 AM
I assume move 2 was Nf3 otherwise 4.Qxg4 is even stronger, winning a whole piece for nothing. :)

When I first looked at the line I saw 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 and wondered how can anyone "1500 with a bullet" be playing tripe like 2.Nc3. :)

Sutek
29-08-2006, 02:14 PM
This was played at an Olympiad.
I found this game in Chess Assistant 9's "hugebase".
I think Combe won the British Championship?


[Event "Olympiad"]
[Site "Folkestone (England)"]
[Date "1933"]
[Round ""]
[White "Combe Robert"]
[Black "Hasenfuss Wolfgang"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B21"]


1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.Nf3 e5 4.Nxe5 Qa5+ 0-1

Kevin Bonham
29-08-2006, 09:11 PM
I assume move 2 was Nf3 otherwise 4.Qxg4 is even stronger, winning a whole piece for nothing. :)

Correct. Fixed. Ta.

Kevin Bonham
29-08-2006, 09:31 PM
Chessbase has forty-eight (48) games with 3...Bg4?? :rolleyes:

Think that's bad: brace yourself for the score to White: +12=16-20. :wall: :wall: :wall:

The ratings column makes it clearer: of those with a rating indicated no player on either side exceeds 1600.

Only eight whites saw the correct reply, and of these only 3 won (4 draws and a loss). Two of the eight whites played 5.Ne5+? - of these one won and one drew. So the six whites playing the right line only scored 3.5/6.

Here's the loss by white.


[Event "DDR corr"]
[Site "DDR"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Poetzsch,Albin"]
[Black "Braskin,Ivo"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B50"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Bg4 4.Bxf7+ Kxf7 5.Ng5+ Ke8 6.Qxg4 Nf6 7.Qe6 Qb6 8.Qc8+ Qd8
9.Qxd8+ Kxd8 10.Nf7+ Ke8 11.Nxh8 Nxe4 12.d3 Nf6 13.Bf4 g6 14.Nc3 Bg7 15.Nb5 Na6 16.Nxg6 hxg6
17.0-0-0 Kd7 18.f3 Nd5 19.Bd2 Nab4 20.a3 a6 21.Nc3 Nxc3 22.bxc3 Nd5 23.Kb2 b5 24.h4 b4
25.Kb3 bxc3 26.Bg5 Rb8+ 27.Ka4 Rb5 0-1

The gods, if there are any, weep.

road runner
29-08-2006, 09:48 PM
...
[White "Poetzsch,Albin"]
...
1.e4
A rather rash move; obviously played out of desperation to avoid his namesake's opening.

Rincewind
29-08-2006, 10:02 PM
This was played at an Olympiad.
I found this game in Chess Assistant 9's "hugebase".
I think Combe won the British Championship?

This game reminded me of a bad opening I played in a FICS Team League game a month or so back. Fortunately my opponent played as bad as me for the first 15 moves and I managed to end up just a pawn down and the ending is cute I think (look at position after white's 64th move).

[Event "rated standard match"]
[Site "freechess.org"]
[Date "2006.07.15"]
[Round "?"]
[White "uiknight"]
[Black "rockwimp"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2057"]
[BlackElo "2041P"]
[ECO "B22"]
[TimeControl "2700"]

1. e4 c5 2. c3 e5 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nxe5 d6 5. Nf3 Nxe4 6. d4 Be7 7. dxc5 dxc5 8.
Qa4+ Bd7 9. Qxe4 O-O 10. Bd3 g6 11. O-O Bf5 12. Qxb7 Bxd3 13. Rd1 Be4 14.
Rxd8 Bxb7 15. Rxf8+ Bxf8 16. Ne5 Nc6 17. Nxc6 Bxc6 18. Be3 Rb8 19. b3 Rd8 20.
Nd2 Bg7 21. Rc1 Rd3 22. Nf3 Rxc3 23. Rxc3 Bxc3 24. Bxc5 a6 25. Nd4 Be4 26.
Ne2 Bb2 27. Bd4 Ba3 28. Nc3 Bc6 29. f3 f5 30. Kf2 Kf7 31. Ke3 Ke6 32. Kd3 Bd6
33. h3 Bb4 34. Ke3 Bxc3 35. Bxc3 Bb5 36. g4 fxg4 37. hxg4 h5 38. gxh5 gxh5
39. Be1 Kf5 40. Bg3 Bf1 41. a4 Bg2 42. b4 Bf1 43. Bh4 Bc4 44. Bg3 Bd5 45. b5
axb5 46. axb5 Bb7 47. Bh4 Ba8 48. Be7 Bb7 49. Bd8 Ba8 50. Kf2 Bb7 51. Ke3 Ba8
52. Bh4 Bb7 53. Bg3 Ba8 54. f4 Bb7 55. Kd4 h4 56. Bh2 Kg4 57. Ke5 Kh5 58. b6
Kg6 59. Ke6 Be4 60. Ke5 Bb7 61. Kd6 Kf5 62. Kc7 Bg2 63. b7 Bxb7 64. Kxb7 Kg4
65. Kc6 Kh3 66. f5 Kxh2 67. f6 Kg2 68. f7 h3 69. f8=Q h2 70. Qg7+ Kh1 71.
Qa1+ Kg2 72. Qb2+ Kg1 73. Qc1+ Kg2 74. Qd2+ Kg1 75. Qd1+ Kg2 76. Qg4+ Kh1 77.
Qf3+ Kg1 78. Qg3+ Kh1 79. Qe1+ Kg2 80. Qe2+ Kg1 81. Qe3+ Kg2 {Game drawn by
mutual agreement} 1/2-1/2

Denis_Jessop
29-08-2006, 11:33 PM
This was played at an Olympiad.
I found this game in Chess Assistant 9's "hugebase".
I think Combe won the British Championship?


[Event "Olympiad"]
[Site "Folkestone (England)"]
[Date "1933"]
[Round ""]
[White "Combe Robert"]
[Black "Hasenfuss Wolfgang"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B21"]


1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.Nf3 e5 4.Nxe5 Qa5+ 0-1

There are a lot of these horrors, including that quoted above, in the Even More Complete Chess Addict. Combe was indeed a future British Champion. In this game he was playing for Scotland and, according to the EMCCA, had had a 12-hour game the day before. He is reported as having said of this one "The positional layout was perfect:it was unfortunately spoiled by a tactical circumstance."

Incidentally, there seems to some contention about the actual moves played. Fox and James give White's first two moves as d4 and c4. They say that some sources give e4 as White's second move. So e4 as move 1 is yet another version.

DJ

Kevin Bonham
30-08-2006, 12:33 PM
In 1999 I played a game that started as follows:

Bonham - Hornung

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nd4 4.Nxd4 cxd4 5.d3?? [and I realised my blunder immediately, sat there for a few minutes considering whether to resign if he played the queen check] 5...Nf6??

and immediately after playing his reply he noticed he could have won a piece, put two ??s on his scoresheet, and duly beat me 50-something moves later after I let myself get swindled in a favourable rook ending in a time scramble.

MichaelBaron
30-08-2006, 06:12 PM
Chessbase has forty-eight (48) games with 3...Bg4?? :rolleyes:

Think that's bad: brace yourself for the score to White: +12=16-20. :wall: :wall: :wall:

The ratings column makes it clearer: of those with a rating indicated no player on either side exceeds 1600.

Only eight whites saw the correct reply, and of these only 3 won (4 draws and a loss). Two of the eight whites played 5.Ne5+? - of these one won and one drew. So the six whites playing the right line only scored 3.5/6.

Here's the loss by white.


[Event "DDR corr"]
[Site "DDR"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Poetzsch,Albin"]
[Black "Braskin,Ivo"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B50"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Bg4 4.Bxf7+ Kxf7 5.Ng5+ Ke8 6.Qxg4 Nf6 7.Qe6 Qb6 8.Qc8+ Qd8
9.Qxd8+ Kxd8 10.Nf7+ Ke8 11.Nxh8 Nxe4 12.d3 Nf6 13.Bf4 g6 14.Nc3 Bg7 15.Nb5 Na6 16.Nxg6 hxg6
17.0-0-0 Kd7 18.f3 Nd5 19.Bd2 Nab4 20.a3 a6 21.Nc3 Nxc3 22.bxc3 Nd5 23.Kb2 b5 24.h4 b4
25.Kb3 bxc3 26.Bg5 Rb8+ 27.Ka4 Rb5 0-1

The gods, if there are any, weep.


That is exactly what the problem with many databases or even opening books. One has to be assertive when studying them.

I remember criticizing a chess student of mine for a move he played and he pointed it out to me that he saw this move in somebody's article...The article was referring to a game between two players at the chess ollympiad..when i looked up the players ratings, one was rated about 2000 and the second one was also U2200. I think we got to be very careful these days which articles/books/databases to trust. There is a need to be assertive rather than a "blind" believer;)

Kevin Bonham
31-08-2006, 01:00 PM
I think we got to be very careful these days which articles/books/databases to trust. There is a need to be assertive rather than a "blind" believer;)

Totally agree. Usually if I am trying to assess the playability of a line I will look for games where both sides were rated >2200, ideally >2300 or even >2400 if there are enough games. Even then if the number of games is small you need to eliminate the ones lost by blunder and the ones where inferior variations were chosen. Also you need to look at whether the pattern has changed over time (perhaps the line was once scoring well but a TN has put it out of business) or if the line is still being played with the same sorts of stats. Of the games a database has from a position only a few will be useful.

CC players are typically alert to this stuff but OTB players picking lines to play in tournaments often aren't.

Oepty
02-09-2006, 04:34 PM
I fell for the Bxh7 trap in my 4th rated game I believe. I though found the rather interesting way of getting a playable game, castling queenside. Of course it is illegal and it was made innocently on my part. My opponnent didn't realise it was illegal either and we had a rather long game afterwards which I fortunately lost. I will try and find the game.
Scott

qpawn
07-09-2006, 10:21 AM
Kevin Bonham is quite right to say that the viability of a line changes over time.

A subtle instance of this is the excahnge of the b4 bishop for the knight in the Nimzo-Indian. Nimzowitch used to do this exchange straight away. Nowadays the accepted theory is to delay the exchange until white has spent a temp with a3 or until black will lose the ability to double the pawns.

By the way I am sure that I have seen a proper tournament game between masters in the 80s that had exactly the same moves as the Combe game. Can't recall exactly who but it was two European guys. Some games are repeated; there is that one where Marshall plays about ten pawn moves and wins in about ten moves.

Kevin Bonham
07-09-2006, 12:26 PM
White is in the 1500s (with a bullet)

The bullet took him up almost 130 points in the last list; he is now high 1600s.