PDA

View Full Version : How much are the Chess Lessons?



MichaelBaron
11-05-2006, 10:29 AM
What is the the standard cost of chess lessons (private tuition one-on-one) in Australia?

What sort of price range are we looking at? Are the chess coaches able to earn their living from chess related activities?

:hmm:

jenni
11-05-2006, 11:58 AM
What is the the standard cost of chess lessons (private tuition one-on-one) in Australia?

What sort of price range are we looking at? Are the chess coaches able to earn their living from chess related activities?

:hmm:

I think it varies hugely depending on the coach. I'd be pretty interested in getting feedback on coaching rates in other states, both individual and schools.

I've been told one of our strong coaches here in Canberra coaches for $10 per hour - not sure if that is for all his pupils or not. He's pretty dedicated and has a normal job.

The Junior Chess League has a flat rate for $75 per day for beginner coaches - normally you start at either 9 or 10 (depends on whether it is holiday coaching days or Dev squad days) and finish around 5, with a free pizza lunch thrown in. We expect a level of voluntary work from our community and it is a good way for the teenagers to start learning coaching techniques.

When it comes to private one on one lessons, that varies as well. Teenagers probably charge around $15 per hour, Uni students about $27.50 per hour. Gareth is charging $30 per hour for a joint lesson with 2 brothers (his only pupils currently).

If you import a high quality coach from Sydney you would pay between $50 and $60 per hour (last years rates). If we had a high quality coach in Canberra I would be expecting to pay $40 to $50 per hour (plus GST).

In the past we have had two professional coaches in Canberra, Geoff Butler and Jeff Suptut - both seemed to make reasonable livings from chess. They did extensive coaching at schools and that seems lucrative, but probably harder than individual coaching with an enthusiastic pupil.

Igor_Goldenberg
11-05-2006, 02:25 PM
What is the the standard cost of chess lessons (private tuition one-on-one) in Australia?

What sort of price range are we looking at? Are the chess coaches able to earn their living from chess related activities?

:hmm:

Michael,

If you are after private tuition, please contact me and we can negotiate a mutually acceptable rate, I might even give you a discount.:D

On a more serious note, kids are expected to pay around $10 per hour in a small group. The split between the coach and a company is unknown. I would expect high quality private coaching from the top players to be around $30-$50 (I know an example of $40 rate, but not sure that I can disclose more details).

Igor_Goldenberg
11-05-2006, 02:28 PM
It should probably be posted in Non-chess/jokes, but seems relevant to the thread:

A dentist has a plumbing problem at home and calls a specialist. After working for 15minutes plumber charges $300. The dentist is outraged:
"I am a dentist, and I don't charge that much!!", to which plumber replies:
"I didn't charge that much either when I was a dentist".

jenni
11-05-2006, 02:47 PM
I would expect high quality private coaching from the top players to be around $30-$50 (I know an example of $40 rate, but not sure that I can disclose more details).

This seems very low! I was paying a Canberra coach (with a rating of around 1700) $33 ($30 +gst) some years ago. Maybe Canberra people just value our coaches more... (or maybe it is a case of supply and demand).

To get a comparison with Music we pay $50 per hour for a violin teacher - and not a high flyer one other - rates go up from there.

Oepty
11-05-2006, 03:22 PM
Jenni. Knights and Bytes/Alan Goldsmith charge $35 for a private lesson at either his shop or players home. $20 per hour for an advanced adult group on Saturday mornings. He is also about to hold a Saturday morning beginners class over 6 weeks for $99.

Chess Kids Victoria list individaul lessons as being $60 per hour or $35 each for a small group of 2-4 players.
Chess Kids SA charge $176 for 8 x 1/2 hour lessons individually or $132 each for 2 students.

All information taken off the revelant websites
Scott

Igor_Goldenberg
11-05-2006, 03:25 PM
This seems very low! I was paying a Canberra coach (with a rating of around 1700) $33 ($30 +gst) some years ago. Maybe Canberra people just value our coaches more... (or maybe it is a case of supply and demand).

To get a comparison with Music we pay $50 per hour for a violin teacher - and not a high flyer one other - rates go up from there.

I think $33 per hour from 1700 is way too much. I guess the demand in Canberra is higher (or supply lower).

If I was a lonely chess professional, I'd consider relocating:D

PS How much would you offer for coaching to someone like, for example, Gary Lane (or comparable standard of play)?

four four two
11-05-2006, 05:09 PM
This seems very low! I was paying a Canberra coach (with a rating of around 1700) $33 ($30 +gst) some years ago. Maybe Canberra people just value our coaches more... (or maybe it is a case of supply and demand).


While I would agree that chess coaching is more of a niche industry than music teachers,$33 for a 1700 player in a one on one situation is very generous. They must have thought all their christmas's had come at once!:D

I would say most of the 2200+ players in Melbourne would charge between 30 and 50 dollars an hour in a one on one situation.

In Melbourne a 1700 player would consider themselves lucky to get any one on one students,let alone ones that are willing to pay $33 an hour.;)

jenni
11-05-2006, 05:09 PM
I think $33 per hour from 1700 is way too much. I guess the demand in Canberra is higher (or supply lower).

I think the latter - although probably per head of population we have a very high demand, physically we are still only 300,000 people. We felt we were lucky to have him.


If I was a lonely chess professional, I'd consider relocating:D sigh - one of these days I'll get my paws on a good coach for Canberra. ;)


PS How much would you offer for coaching to someone like, for example, Gary Lane (or comparable standard of play)?

Someone at Gary's level we would pay $50 per hour plus expenses to come to Canberra. Someone at Ian's level is $60+

jenni
11-05-2006, 05:13 PM
While I would agree that chess coaching is more of a niche industry than music teachers,$33 for a 1700 player in a one on one situation is very generous. They must have thought all their christmas's had come at once!:D

I would say most of the 2200+ players in Melbourne would charge between 30 and 50 dollars an hour in a one on one situation.

In Melbourne a 1700 player would consider themselves lucky to get any one on one students,let alone ones that are willing to pay $33 an hour.;)

At that point in time we were considered "lucky" to have him as there were other kids who had no coach. We considered him worth it, because he was very good at encouraging and morale boosting. He did put Shannon into some very dodgy openings that had Gary Lane tearing his hair out when he did some coaching with Shannon at a later stage.

jenni
11-05-2006, 05:15 PM
Jenni. Knights and Bytes/Alan Goldsmith charge $35 for a private lesson at either his shop or players home. $20 per hour for an advanced adult group on Saturday mornings. He is also about to hold a Saturday morning beginners class over 6 weeks for $99.

Chess Kids Victoria list individaul lessons as being $60 per hour or $35 each for a small group of 2-4 players.
Chess Kids SA charge $176 for 8 x 1/2 hour lessons individually or $132 each for 2 students.

All information taken off the revelant websites
Scott
Thanks Scott. :)

Igor_Goldenberg
11-05-2006, 05:20 PM
While I would agree that chess coaching is more of a niche industry than music teachers,$33 for a 1700 player in a one on one situation is very generous. They must have thought all their christmas's had come at once!:D

I would say most of the 2200+ players in Melbourne would charge between 30 and 50 dollars an hour in a one on one situation.

In Melbourne a 1700 player would consider themselves lucky to get any one on one students,let alone ones that are willing to pay $33 an hour.;)

I remember charging $10 per hour twelve years ago.

And music teacher are usually charge much more then chess coaches. I guess there are two reasons for that:

1. The demand for music lessons is much higher
2. The competence level of music teachers is much higher. Indeed, 2300+ is a high standard in Australia, but laughable in more chess-savvy nations.

On the other hand, it is counteracted, but not neutralised by the fact that supply for chess teachers is also lower.

four four two
11-05-2006, 05:22 PM
He did put Shannon into some very dodgy openings that had Gary Lane tearing his hair out when he did some coaching with Shannon at a later stage.

I'll bet he did.:D ;)

Selecting a coach in a field where you are not experienced is a case of trial and error,its a case of buyer beware and at least you now know better.

Is this person still getting some students in Canberra at $33hr ,or is the local chess scene alot more savvy now?:hmm:

jenni
11-05-2006, 05:25 PM
I'll bet he did.:D ;)

Selecting a coach in a field where you are not experienced is a case of trial and error,its a case of buyer beware and at least you now know better.

Is this person still getting some students in Canberra at $33hr ,or is the local chess scene alot more savvy now?:hmm:

He is still a valued coach in Canberra (we really are seriously short of coaches). Although the openings were dodgy he did give Shannon a lot of faith in herself and inspire her to love chess, so we are happy. (Although Shannon still laughs about her ex-openings. :) )

MichaelBaron
11-05-2006, 08:43 PM
[QUOTE=Igor_Goldenberg]Michael,

If you are after private tuition, please contact me and we can negotiate a mutually acceptable rate, I might even give you a discount.:D

Thx for the offer, Igor...I would love to learn the secrets of beating Ian Rogers:hmm: I guess its worth investing into the lessons :doh:

MichaelBaron
11-05-2006, 08:55 PM
Jenni. Knights and Bytes/Alan Goldsmith charge $35 for a private lesson at either his shop or players home. $20 per hour for an advanced adult group on Saturday mornings. He is also about to hold a Saturday morning beginners class over 6 weeks for $99.

Chess Kids Victoria list individaul lessons as being $60 per hour or $35 each for a small group of 2-4 players.
Chess Kids SA charge $176 for 8 x 1/2 hour lessons individually or $132 each for 2 students.

All information taken off the revelant websites
Scott


$60/hour is a decent rate for chess tutoring. Uni tutors are getting around the same amount for their services. I just wonder who are these "top coaches" at Chess Kids who can charge such a rate.

ElevatorEscapee
11-05-2006, 09:02 PM
It can also depend upon where you go and in what context you are teaching people.

I was paid around $45 an hour (evening rate) for a couple of hours a week about three years back as a TAFE teacher actually going into the local prison and teaching chess to prisoners as an option of part of their Level 1 in Sport and Recreation Certificate.

MichaelBaron
12-05-2006, 12:37 AM
It can also depend upon where you go and in what context you are teaching people.

I was paid around $45 an hour (evening rate) for a couple of hours a week about three years back as a TAFE teacher actually going into the local prison and teaching chess to prisoners as an option of part of their Level 1 in Sport and Recreation Certificate.


I guess one of the reason I stopped improving is that i am no longer is a position to study chess. Would be nice to do it as part of a recreation certificate. Just wondering of a couple of years in prison could turn me into an IM :doh: :hmm:

The TAFE rate is now $53/hour, Uni rates are $110+ hour for lectures and $60+/hour for tutorials.

But hey, teaching chess is more fun:hand:

firegoat7
12-05-2006, 12:14 PM
I think $33 per hour from 1700 is way too much. I guess the demand in Canberra is higher (or supply lower).


I completely disagree.

I think it all depends on the market and the context in which you are teaching.

I would even suggest that in the right context it is not enough money.

Possible arguments to consider would be this.
Context and Supply
In Russia 1700 players are a dime a dozen.
In Papua New Guinea 1700 players are quite rare.
In Melbourne 1700 players are in about the top 35% of chess players. A relatively small group of people of which even a smaller amount would coach
In the Northern Territory a 1700 player may be the strongest player.

Who is paying

If I was coaching a rich person I would charge about three times what I would normally charge ordinary people. I would not even feel guilty charging $150 bucks a lesson, they don't have to pay and they can afford it so whats the problem?
If I was coaching their obnoxius brats, it would be about the same cost.
Middle class pofessionals twice as much.
The children of the unemployed single moms and dads $5 or even free upon negotiation.

I think chess players underate their accumulated specialist cultural knowledge. It is probably worth more in the market then they realise.

cheers Fg7

Kevin Bonham
12-05-2006, 12:33 PM
I usually make about $35/hour. In some cases I've managed to get involved in state government programs that were well-funded at the time and got $50/hour.

MichaelBaron
12-05-2006, 01:29 PM
I completely disagree.

I think it all depends on the market and the context in which you are teaching.

IWho is paying

If I was coaching a rich person I would charge about three times what I would normally charge ordinary people. I would not even feel guilty charging $150 bucks a lesson, they don't have to pay and they can afford it so whats the problem?
If I was coaching their obnoxius brats, it would be about the same cost.
Middle class pofessionals twice as much.
The children of the unemployed single moms and dads $5 or even free upon negotiation.

I think chess players underate their accumulated specialist cultural knowledge. It is probably worth more in the market then they realise.

cheers Fg7

Dave, you are trying to turn chess coaching into a social equity issue. You can charge children of unemployed single mums and dads $5 (below the market value) and it could be viewed as your charitable contribution to the society (good on you if you do it).

But charging rich people 3 times the normal rate ...hmm :hmm: I doubt it is possible in a market economy..rich does not mean stupid.

Your could provide the rich and famous with an exclusive service where the high fees could be justified by the chess coach dancing, singing, serving ice-cream and providing sexual services throughout the lesson.

Its true, that rich people tend to pay more for the services they consume. However, they do expect better quality of the service provided through some value-adding activities. :whistle:

The only reason rich people pay more for coaching is that they tend to opt for the best coaches available.

firegoat7
12-05-2006, 02:31 PM
The only reason rich people pay more for coaching is that they tend to opt for the best coaches available.

Now Michael, if I am 1700 strength and I (not you-i.e. subjective) was coaching in the Northern Territory, I would probably be the strongest chess player there. Therefore I (again subjective) could probably get away with charging rich people a packet. Of course if Michael Baron was to turn up, I would immediately be the 2nd best player in the NT, which may affect my client base and my rates of pay.

cheers fg7

jenni
12-05-2006, 02:47 PM
You know just for a moment I was enjoying the BB again and finding it a useful exchange of information. Unfortunately the goat is back with his saliva drooling rhetoric, so I'm gone again.

Fortunately the ACT will very shortly have its own IM coach resident in Canberra, so people won't have to waste money on weak coaches.

four four two
12-05-2006, 03:04 PM
I hope I'm not prying here too much Jenni,but is this IM an australian IM relocating to Canberra or a foreign IM moving to Canberra?:hmm:

If they are a foreign IM,are they settling permanently in Australia or just spending an extended time in Australia?:hmm:

Either way,good luck...be a good shot in the arm for the Canberra chess scene.;)

bobby1972
12-05-2006, 03:48 PM
$30 an hour thats crazy ,way to high.

MichaelBaron
12-05-2006, 04:00 PM
$30 an hour thats crazy ,way to high.


The higher it gets, the better chessplayers we are going to get as coaches. I do enjoy chess coaching but i do not see it as a feasible profession right now so i focus on other professional activities. Would I be able to secure lessons at $60/hour or so, i would be delighted to change careers :rolleyes:

jenni
12-05-2006, 05:02 PM
I hope I'm not prying here too much Jenni,but is this IM an australian IM relocating to Canberra or a foreign IM moving to Canberra?:hmm:

If they are a foreign IM,are they settling permanently in Australia or just spending an extended time in Australia?:hmm:

Either way,good luck...be a good shot in the arm for the Canberra chess scene.;)

It is IM Andras Toth - twice Hungarian Junior champion and a member of the national team that won the Bronze at the Children's Chess Olympiad.

He is coming to live and work in Canberra for 2 years. We hope to have him here in the next 2 weeks, if the Australian Embassy in Budapest don't drive me crazy.

Now I'll go back to sulking.

Igor_Goldenberg
12-05-2006, 05:22 PM
You know just for a moment I was enjoying the BB again and finding it a useful exchange of information. Unfortunately the goat is back with his saliva drooling rhetoric, so I'm gone again.

Fortunately the ACT will very shortly have its own IM coach resident in Canberra, so people won't have to waste money on weak coaches.

A good example how market resolves the problem, and a good proactive aproach too.

Garvinator
12-05-2006, 06:03 PM
It is IM Andras Toth - twice Hungarian Junior champion and a member of the national team that won the Bronze at the Children's Chess Olympiad.

He is coming to live and work in Canberra for 2 years. We hope to have him here in the next 2 weeks, if the Australian Embassy in Budapest don't drive me crazy.

Now I'll go back to sulking.
now this wouldnt be the IM for the nsw open would it;) :cool:

ElevatorEscapee
12-05-2006, 09:30 PM
Hmmm, I wonder if people are really focusing on what makes a good chess teacher, or just assuming that because a chess player is really good, that they therefore are a good teacher.

Just because someone is good at doing something doesn't necessarily make them good at teaching the same thing.

Whilst it's great to have learnt one's subject at a high level, one wonders if there is really any genuine value in paying a Grandmaster $100 per hour to teach a class of (say) 7 year olds, as opposed to paying for an average club player, who happens to be a really good teacher who can instill not only a sense of enjoyment and fun in the game, but also inspire his/her students to learn more by their own efforts.

A 2300 ACF rated chess coach may be a vastly superior player to a 1700 ACF rated coach, but that does not necessarily mean that:

a) they are necessarily the better teacher for each student,

or

b) beginning students will learn any more from them than they can from the 1700 rated coach.

In my mind, the coach who is the better player should distinguish him/her self as being a definite "quality cut" above the average, and specialize in those players who are looking to become exceptionally good. :)

antichrist
12-05-2006, 09:53 PM
EE, I will let you in a little secret. The first team I coached, them and myself never have playing a comp game, beat the team of an ex-state champion.

And did he bore it up them afterwards. They were from an exclusive private school.

Brian_Jones
13-05-2006, 08:56 AM
To help this discussion, would somebody please attempt to define the following:

1. chess teaching
2. chess coaching
3. chess training

antichrist
13-05-2006, 09:00 AM
To help this discussion, would somebody please attempt to define the following:

1. chess teaching
2. chess coaching
3. chess training

How much will you pay me if I do?

Steve K
13-05-2006, 04:58 PM
$30 an hour thats crazy ,way to high.

I agree especially as the $30 would be cash in hand.

Rather than seeking chess lessons I have purchased a few Chessbase DVDs and some books from the excellent range published by Gambit. At an average cost of $60 each the DVDs represent 2 hours approx of lessons - great value IMO as they can be played as often as I choose and at a time that suits me rather than a time negotiated with a trainer.

I feel sure that the electronic age (Fritz etc) has made it harder than ever for strong players to make a reasonable income from chess teaching.

ursogr8
13-05-2006, 08:14 PM
To help this discussion, would somebody please attempt to define the following:

1. chess teaching
2. chess coaching
3. chess training

Well, Brian, me old matey,
Not more than a few hours back I posted the official definitions as commissioned by the ACF. Word for word. No editoralising by me. As supplied by the commissioned officer.
And then gbc asked me if it was all right to be conversing with a banned poster.
Jeez, mate, I knew he (the banned poster) was on the outer, but one is not even allowed to quote him from a private e-mail given with his agreement.
My two posts, and gbc's post seemed to have gone or been moved. :confused:
So, I hoping that gbc is not in trouble, fancy him being censored. :rolleyes:

Would you be interested in what I can recall of the ACF's document?
See below.
Level 1, Chess Teacher

A chess teacher delivers the most common level of coaching. The title of Teacher will pertain to those who can explain the fundamental rules of the game to novices and teach them to play within those rules.


Level 2, Chess Instructor

A chess instructor will have a practical knowledge of basic chess play. The title of Instructor will pertain to those who can identify strong and weak moves and explain to a student, why in the context of the position, each move is as such. An Instructor will have a sound understanding of: opening principles; attack and defence; endgame technique; and the tension between tactics, strategy, and time management.


Level 3, Chess Trainer

A chess trainer will have highly developed chess skills and be able to convey these skills to a student in a variety of ways. The title of Trainer will pertain to those who can demonstrate: an extensive knowledge of all main openings; an ability to explain when and why tactics or strategy are more important; sound endgame technique for the various permutations of pieces and positions; how to guide a middle game toward favourable endings; an ability to determine the psychological aspects effecting the student and to give them tools and skills to minimise detrimental thought processes.


Level 4, Chess Coach

A chess coach is the highest possible level. As such, the title of Coach must be reserved for those rare individuals who have demonstrated an outstanding ability to teach, guide, and mentor players at any level, including those whose playing ability is greater than their own.

regards
starter

Phil Bourke
14-05-2006, 04:33 PM
Of course, there is always the option of joining a chess club and talking with the better players there. That would have to be one of the cheapest options available as to chess coaching. Add to that one copy of Fritz or any of the strong chess playing programs, and a book or two on specialised subjects as the need arises, and you will basically have it covered.
It will really come down to the individual wanting to learn and how they best learn.
Chess coaches may be the best option for some, although others may feel that it is a complete waste of time and money.

MichaelBaron
14-05-2006, 06:55 PM
Of course, there is always the option of joining a chess club and talking with the better players there. That would have to be one of the cheapest options available as to chess coaching. Add to that one copy of Fritz or any of the strong chess playing programs, and a book or two on specialised subjects as the need arises, and you will basically have it covered.
It will really come down to the individual wanting to learn and how they best learn.
Chess coaches may be the best option for some, although others may feel that it is a complete waste of time and money.

Good Points, Phil:clap:

WhiteElephant
14-05-2006, 09:01 PM
If I was looking for a private chess teacher for my son or daughter, I would seek the following qualities:

1. Punctual and reliable
2. Well presented (hair washed, no offensive smell, etc)
3. Good knowledge of chess
4. Good teaching ability and communication
5. Rapport with children
6. NOT a chess freak

I would say there are less than a handful of chess coaches in Victoria who meet all of those criteria.

I would not be willing to compromise on any of the above when it came to letting a complete stranger spend an hour or more each week with my children. If paying $60 instead of $40 per hour means I get all of the above then it is worth it.

antichrist
14-05-2006, 09:17 PM
If I was looking for a private chess teacher for my son or daughter, I would seek the following qualities:

1. Punctual and reliable
2. Well presented (hair washed, no offensive smell, etc)
3. Good knowledge of chess
4. Good teaching ability and communication
5. Rapport with children
6. NOT a chess freak

I would say there are less than a handful of chess coaches in Victoria who meet all of those criteria.

I would not be willing to compromise on any of the above when it came to letting a complete stranger spend an hour or more each week with my children. If paying $60 instead of $40 per hour means I get all of the above then it is worth it.

I certainly hope you would not let one of those weak women players coach your child.

You forgot the one attribute of being able to chat your missus up.

Desmond
14-05-2006, 09:27 PM
$30 an hour is reasonable to me for a non-exceptional coach (ie not IM etc). I would be inclined to charge more if required to spend time and petrol etc to travel to the students house.

As regards 1700 strength players being equipped teachers, this depends on the level of the student.

Garvinator
14-05-2006, 09:59 PM
6. NOT a chess freak
now you would be struggling;) :P

arosar
14-05-2006, 10:02 PM
If I was looking for a private chess teacher for my son or daughter, I would seek the following qualities:

1. Punctual and reliable
2. Well presented (hair washed, no offensive smell, etc)
3. Good knowledge of chess
4. Good teaching ability and communication
5. Rapport with children
6. NOT a chess freak

And no police record.

AR

MichaelBaron
15-05-2006, 02:04 AM
I certainly hope you would not let one of those weak women players coach your child.

You forgot the one attribute of being able to chat your missus up.

It all depends on the student's level and age.

Travelling around primary schools teaching the rules of chess to the kids. is a job for an educator experienced in working with childrent. No great chess skill is required. However, one does need to be a strong player with a good positional understanding to assist an 1800-rated player to take it to the next level.

Duff McKagan
15-05-2006, 03:22 AM
And no police record.

AR

damn :)

ElevatorEscapee
15-05-2006, 05:57 PM
And no police record.

AR
What about something from Sting's solo career? :P