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antichrist
25-04-2006, 07:00 PM
I have noticed some players, who I have boxed around the ears once too often (and taken too much money from), lose the confidence at the vital moment when everything is going their way (unless they do not recognise it). They back off when the world is at their feet.

Has anyone else found this?

Jesse Jager
26-04-2006, 03:26 PM
many times :D

Kevin Bonham
26-04-2006, 07:59 PM
I've found that some players just seem to be totally punch-drunk. You beat them enough times in a row and they start playing like they know they're going to lose from the start.

I don't know about the exact scenario antichrist describes. I suspect the causality's the other way around - eg the fact that they are prone to back off at crucial moments is the reason I beat them so often, rather than a result of me doing so.

Thunderstone
29-05-2006, 09:40 AM
Tal use to regularly lose to Korchnoi so one day he said to himself that in order to beat him he would first have to stop losing to him! Next time they played Tal was white and headed straight for a draw.

Perhaps Tal's best unknown attempt at beating Korchnoi was in the game Karpov v Korchnoi from the WC 1978!
Tal was Karpov's second and it's believe the novelty 11.Ng5!? was his work.

[Event "World Championship 29th"]
[Site "Baguio City"]
[Date "1978.08.08"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Karpov, Anatoly"]
[Black "Kortschnoj, Viktor"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C80"]
[WhiteElo "2725"]
[BlackElo "2665"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Ng5 dxc3 12. Nxe6 fxe6 13. bxc3 Qd3 14. Nf3 Qxd1 15. Bxd1 Be7 16. Be3 Nd3 17. Bb3 Kf7 18. Rad1 Ndxe5 19. Nxe5+ Nxe5 20. Bf4 Nc4 21. Bxc4 bxc4 22. Rd4 Bd6 23. Be3 Rhb8 24. Rxc4 Rb2 25. a4 Ra2 26. g3 Rb8 27. Rd1 Rbb2 28. Rdd4 Rb1+ 29. Kg2 Rba1 30. Rh4 h6 31. Bc5 e5 32. Ba7 Ke6 33. Rcg4 Be7 34. Rh5 Bf6 35. Rc4 Kd7 36. Bb8 c6 37. Re4 Rxa4 38. c4 Ra5 39. Bxe5 Bxe5 40. Rhxe5 Rxe5 41. Rxe5 Ra4 42. Re4 Ra5 43. h4 h5 44. Rf4 1/2-1/2

Igor_Goldenberg
29-05-2006, 11:43 AM
Tal use to regularly lose to Korchnoi so one day he said to himself that in order to beat him he would first have to stop losing to him! Next time they played Tal was white and headed straight for a draw.

Perhaps Tal's best unknown attempt at beating Korchnoi was in the game Karpov v Korchnoi from the WC 1978!
Tal was Karpov's second and it's believe the novelty 11.Ng5!? was his work.

[Event "World Championship 29th"]
[Site "Baguio City"]
[Date "1978.08.08"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Karpov, Anatoly"]
[Black "Kortschnoj, Viktor"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C80"]
[WhiteElo "2725"]
[BlackElo "2665"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 d4 11. Ng5 dxc3 12. Nxe6 fxe6 13. bxc3 Qd3 14. Nf3 Qxd1 15. Bxd1 Be7 16. Be3 Nd3 17. Bb3 Kf7 18. Rad1 Ndxe5 19. Nxe5+ Nxe5 20. Bf4 Nc4 21. Bxc4 bxc4 22. Rd4 Bd6 23. Be3 Rhb8 24. Rxc4 Rb2 25. a4 Ra2 26. g3 Rb8 27. Rd1 Rbb2 28. Rdd4 Rb1+ 29. Kg2 Rba1 30. Rh4 h6 31. Bc5 e5 32. Ba7 Ke6 33. Rcg4 Be7 34. Rh5 Bf6 35. Rc4 Kd7 36. Bb8 c6 37. Re4 Rxa4 38. c4 Ra5 39. Bxe5 Bxe5 40. Rhxe5 Rxe5 41. Rxe5 Ra4 42. Re4 Ra5 43. h4 h5 44. Rf4 1/2-1/2

According to Karpov (and Kortschoj) the idea (like many other attributed to Tal in Bagio) belongs to Zaitsev.

Thunderstone
29-05-2006, 04:41 PM
According to Karpov (and Kortschoj) the idea (like many other attributed to Tal in Bagio) belongs to Zaitsev.

I'm sure I read in a book or chess magazine that it was Tal's move.
But if Karpov and Kortchnoi say it was Zaitsev then it must be Zaitsev's move.
11.Ng5!? has such a "Tal feel" about it then it's easy to understand why people would think it was his move.

IM_bob
29-01-2007, 09:18 PM
Zaitsev's theory features a lot in the Ruy Lopez openings of the Kasparov-Karpov Fide Championship matches of 1984 (the precise date escapes me at present).

bill718
06-03-2008, 04:07 PM
I've never liked Bobby Fischer, but I
agree with him when he said. "I don't
believe in psychology, I believe in
playing strong moves" (Not an exact
quote perhaps, but I think you'll get
the idea)
:eek:

Kevin Bonham
06-03-2008, 04:17 PM
I've never liked Bobby Fischer, but I
agree with him when he said. "I don't
believe in psychology, I believe in
playing strong moves"

Yes, it's quoted as "good moves" not "strong moves".

Ironically psychology was significant in his victory over Spassky, eg his surprise choice of 1.c4 in game six of the match. But perhaps he was talking about the psychology of playing an inferior move to unsettle the opponent.

Aaron Guthrie
06-03-2008, 04:55 PM
But perhaps he was talking about the psychology of playing an inferior move to unsettle the opponent.Maybe his assertion of rejecting psychology was a psychological ploy.

Axiom
06-03-2008, 05:09 PM
Maybe his assertion of rejecting psychology was a psychological ploy.
:clap: :clap:

not to mention ignoring the possibility that a good move may contain a psychological component

Miguel
06-03-2008, 05:52 PM
Maybe his assertion of rejecting psychology was a psychological ploy.
That's pretty much what Benko says in Winning with Chess Psychology.

ER
23-01-2009, 08:24 AM
Chess players `are paranoid thrillseekers'

I found the following article online
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20020120/ai_n9669024
under the heading above and I thought of sharing it with you...

I know that the subject has been raised and discussed in this and other related threads, but I also believe that a new generation of players have their own way of functioning, thinking, expressing themselves etc and that way differs dramatically to that of previous generations which has been codified, stereotyped and put in the archives.
Anyway, read it if you will and tell us what you think

On the surface it appears a contemplative challenge of intellects across a chequered board, but beneath the surface, we are now told, chess is all about testosterone, arousal, paranoia, excitement, danger and domination.

Psychologists who studied more than 100 chess players say the game attracts sensation-seekers with a thirst for action and adventure on a par with skydivers, scuba divers, mountaineers and skiers. When men win a game, the experts say, the rise of testosterone levels in the blood is just the same as that experienced by people who go in for risky sports.

Chess, say the researchers, is less a game than a war where the winner experiences feelings of excitement, victory and domination. "Chess is a mimic battle fought upon a field of 64 squares with pieces moved according to an elaborate system having powers suggestive of a variety of fighting units," says a report of the study in the Journal of Personality and Individual Differences.

The psychologists set out to see if people attracted to chess had a sensation- seeking nature. Using a personality test on players and non-players, they found that those who scored highest for sensation- seeking were those who played chess. "Winning a game of chess is associated with a rise in testosterone, especially when the game is close, suggesting that winning corresponds to an experience of excitement and dominance," the researchers report.

They add: "More competitive chess players have been shown to score highly for unconventional thinking and paranoia, both of which have been shown to relate to sensation-seeking."

Copyright 2002 Independent Newspapers UK Limited
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

Ian Murray
23-01-2009, 09:48 AM
Chess players `are paranoid thrillseekers'

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me

ER
23-01-2009, 09:53 AM
I am not paranoid, those who chase me are! :evil:

Ian Murray
23-01-2009, 12:20 PM
I am not paranoid, those who chase me are! :evil:
Where is Ax when you need him? :eh:

Capablanca-Fan
23-01-2009, 12:35 PM
A lot of overstatements about "chess psychology" originate in Réti's simplistic writings on Lasker's style.

Rincewind
23-01-2009, 01:21 PM
A lot of overstatements about "chess psychology" originate in Réti's simplistic writings on Lasker's style.

This reminds me of the line about Reuben Fine retiring from Chess for a career in psychology.

A loss for chess and at best a draw for psychology.

Capablanca-Fan
23-01-2009, 02:53 PM
This reminds me of the line about Reuben Fine retiring from Chess for a career in psychology.

A loss for chess and at best a draw for psychology.
Hard to disagree with that.

Kevin Bonham
25-01-2009, 11:33 PM
This reminds me of the line about Reuben Fine retiring from Chess for a career in psychology.

A loss for chess and at best a draw for psychology.

As I have seen the line quoted it specifically refers to psychoanalysis.

Rincewind
26-01-2009, 10:14 AM
As I have seen the line quoted it specifically refers to psychoanalysis.

A search of Google <<"A loss for chess" Reuben Fine>> came up with 18 psychology and 2 psychoanalysis. As far as I can tell the comment is never attributed so perhap the "original" version is a matter of speculation. Fine was interested in psychoanalysis but also other areas of psychology so either is probably accurate in meaning.

I note the following from Winter's Chess Notes (#5238)


Page 197 of The Guinness Book of Chess Grandmasters by William Hartston (Enfield, 1996) quoted a familiar old quip:


‘By the time FIDE organized the world championship tournament in 1948, Fine had begun to shift his attentions from chess to a career in psychoanalysis. He declined an invitation to the 1948 event because it clashed with his final exams. His decision was later described by one wit as “a great loss for chess and at best a draw for psychoanalysis”.’

Who first made that remark, and where?

This makes me think that the task of finding out who and exactly what was said is likely to be difficult at best.

A google search for <<"A great loss for chess" Reuben Fine>> only comes up with a handful of matches.

Aaron Guthrie
26-01-2009, 02:21 PM
As far as I can tell the comment is never attributed so perhap the "original" version is a matter of speculation.I found an article by the Wall Street Journal, It's Your Move (http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110010776), that attributes.


"As Gilbert Cant wrote in Time magazine many years later, this was a loss for chess and at best a draw for psychology."

The article is Why They Play: The Psychology of Chess (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,910405-1,00.html), and you can find the following at the top of page 2.


"When Fine switched his major interest from chess to psychoanalysis, the result was a loss for chess—and a draw, at best, for psychoanalysis."

Rincewind
26-01-2009, 02:48 PM
I found an article by the Wall Street Journal, It's Your Move (http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110010776), that attributes.


"As Gilbert Cant wrote in Time magazine many years later, this was a loss for chess and at best a draw for psychology."

Well Christopher Chabris attributes it to Cant but he also gets the quote wrong (though he didn't use quotation marks). Perhaps it was original with Cant or it may have been earlier. Fine had retired from professional chess around 20 years prior to the Time article so there is plenty of scope for Cant to have been repeating the witticism.

MichaelBaron
26-01-2009, 07:54 PM
Of course most chess players are paranoid...:)

antichrist
26-01-2009, 08:11 PM
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me

Surely this is worth 20 HCDs