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View Full Version : Coaching sf. Ballarat Begonia 2006 (40th Annual!)



WhiteElephant
12-03-2006, 06:04 AM
That would be Andrew. :D

Apparently he is getting coaching from smurfo in exchange for beer :)

jenni
12-03-2006, 01:04 PM
Apparently he is getting coaching from smurfo in exchange for beer :)
Sounds like a good exchange! Fitzy is actually quite talented, but grew up in an era in Canberra where there wasn't much access to quality coaching.

four four two
12-03-2006, 01:34 PM
Whatever happened to reading books?,or dont todays kiddies have that ability? :hmm:

Do they just let Uncle Fritz teach them now?:whistle:

Contrary to popular belief a private coach isnt essential to chess success.:hand:

WhiteElephant
12-03-2006, 01:39 PM
Contrary to popular belief a private coach isnt essential to chess success.:hand:

That's an interesting question. How many of Australia's top players had coaches when they were kids? Coaches weren't very popular 10 or 20 years ago, but still, I wonder how far someone can go through self-study. I guess a combination of books + some lessons from a stronger player would be useful.

One comment on kiddies and books - seems to be too many juniors memorising opening lines these days. I think it might be more useful to concentrate more on middlegame and endgame study.

Libby
12-03-2006, 01:59 PM
Whatever happened to reading books?,or dont todays kiddies have that ability? :hmm:

Do they just let Uncle Fritz teach them now?:whistle:

Contrary to popular belief a private coach isnt essential to chess success.:hand:

Yawn. Back on the hobbyhorse ...

Seems to work in many other fields of endeavour. Not sure why there is the immense inverse snobbery over it in chess. Ian Thorpe has a coach, Lleyton Hewitt has a coach. Why can't they just read books, look at pictures & videos to improve technique?

Perhaps they benefit from the input of another person, a different perspective, a different take on identifying strengths & weaknesses in their own performance and that of their opponent.

A good private coach (as opposed to someone applying a sausage factory approach) is interested and involved with a pupil and is identifying areas of weakness, encouraging progress and guiding them towards appropriate self-study.

Not everyone needs one, or benefits from one (especially from one with whom there is no rapport). Many players have immense success without any input from a coach. More power to them.

We still have a situation in Canberra where we have not one (non-junior) active player over 2000 against whom our best young players may test their mettle or engage in post match debate & analysis. So even with some improvement in the coaching & development we offer, our best players are basically working alone - just the way you like it. As opposed to other states, where even informally, such elite development opportunities exist. Week in and week out.

four four two
12-03-2006, 02:00 PM
There wasnt much of a coaching industry in Australia even 15 years ago.
I have nothing against players getting coaching WE or using Fritz as a teaching tool for that matter,I just dont think its essential for players to get to 2000+. Using a lack of availability of coaching as a reason for not being able to perform above 2000 is in my opinion a false idea,there are plenty of good chess books that players can learn a substantial amount from. All they need is the patience to read them.;)

Libby
12-03-2006, 02:06 PM
I have nothing against players getting coaching WE or using Fritz as a teaching tool for that matter,I just dont think its essential for players to get to 2000+.

Proven - as none of our ACT juniors over 2000 have a coach. That's not to say they wouldn't have enjoyed the opportunity to have one, even just to bounce ideas off.


Using a lack of availability of coaching as a reason for not being able to perform above 2000 is in my opinion a false idea,there are plenty of good chess books that players can learn a substantial amount from. All they need is the patience to read them.;)

I'll pass that on to our non-junior player population. They just need to try harder.;)

four four two
12-03-2006, 02:08 PM
Swimming and tennis are physical skills,chess is not.:rolleyes:
As usual you presume Im anti-coaching,which I am not.:rolleyes:
Your explanation for Fitzy's lack of success in chess is due to lack of coaching,coaching doesnt by its very nature give you success. Hard work however does.:whistle:

eclectic
12-03-2006, 02:13 PM
as an adult i've been tempted to resort to a chess coach to improve my game but instead i look at my shelf of chess books and think to myself i should get through these first

i did see a certain advertisement for adult coaching somewhere except that you had to be at a rather high rating first before you would even be considered which implies that you ought learn as much as you can before you even bother

my strategy, should i decide on a coach, would be (after going through my chess books etc alone) to challenge them to a 10 game match at classical time controls then arrange the coaching fee according to how well or poorly the coach performed against me

understandably this might get moved to another thread - i think there is already one somewhere on the subject of coaching adults

four four two
12-03-2006, 02:21 PM
2058!! ACT Wei, Michael
2054!! ACT Ikeda, Junta
2005!! ACT Oliver, Gareth

Tell me Libby,which of these juniors has never had coaching?:hmm:

Libby
12-03-2006, 02:26 PM
Swimming and tennis are physical skills,chess is not.:rolleyes:
And as someone who's coached in physical sport I'm only suggesting that self-motivation, practice and study could be seen as equally appropriate in other fields of endeavour. Or we could use music as our example instead.


As usual you presume Im anti-coaching,which I am not.:rolleyes: Good-oh. You'll also find out that I don't promote it as the Holy Grail myself. I just get a bit tired of people dragging it down to the level of cynical money-making when I've seen many volunteers, or (as in Canberra) not lucratively paid people doing a particularly good & professional job of it. And a lot of benefit - well beyond opening lines and cheapos - coming to players from it.


Your explanation for Fitzy's lack of success in chess is due to lack of coaching,coaching doesnt by its very nature give you success. Go back and check who you are speaking with now against who the remark you refer to, came from. WE are not as interchangable as people here seem to think. There are two of us :rolleyes:


Hard work however does.:whistle:
But not for everyone. Different strokes for different folks. Some of the benefits of self-study can be difficult to reap for the very young or for people with different ways of learning.

firegoat7
12-03-2006, 02:31 PM
I point out, for the public record, there has not been a thread split yet!

cheers Fg7

Libby
12-03-2006, 02:33 PM
2058!! ACT Wei, Michael
2054!! ACT Ikeda, Junta
2005!! ACT Oliver, Gareth

Tell me Libby,which of these juniors has never had coaching?:hmm:

OK never ever ever as opposed to


Proven - as none of our ACT juniors over 2000 have a coach.

Currently none have a coach. Michael has had no private coaching for as long as I can remember but did have some private coaching from Geoff Butler when he was still in Primary School (I think). He is now in Year 12.

Junta has had no private coach for at least 2 years.

Gareth has had no (other than occasional) private coach for as long as I can remember although (again) I think Geoff Butler coached him in Primary School.

All have had access to sporadic coaching days etc when we have brought people to Canberra to work with our elite juniors.

If you look at the full context of what I was talking about, we have no non-junior players over 2000. We have a handful active & around 1700-1900 - I can literally count them on my hand. So in pushing forward, and leaving ratings arguments out of it, they don't get regular competition, analysis or discussion with players at that level, and must rely on self study for what they have achieved.

Libby
12-03-2006, 02:34 PM
I point out, for the public record, there has not been a thread split yet!

cheers Fg7

Don't worry - can't be too far off. It's not got a lot to do with the Begonia ;)

Libby

eclectic
12-03-2006, 02:37 PM
I point out, for the public record, there has not been a thread split yet!

cheers Fg7

making use of idle time until this thread is overpowered by the aroma of begonias ...



... and news about the ballarat chess too! yeah! hey!

:cool:
:rolleyes:

jenni
12-03-2006, 03:33 PM
Whatever happened to reading books?,or dont todays kiddies have that ability? :hmm:

Do they just let Uncle Fritz teach them now?:whistle:

Contrary to popular belief a private coach isnt essential to chess success.:hand:

and how many of the top players overseas didn't have a trainer? This is just nonsense!

Of course you can go quite far on your own. Junta Ikeda hasn't had a coach for years - Fitzy in fact was his first coach and then he had Peter Jovanovic briefly and then it is all self taught. Gareth lost his coach (Tristan Reeves) when he was 11 and since then has worked on his own with sessions from various people when he can get it. (Usually Aus Juniors or overseas).

However there is no doubt that a good trainer can make a huge difference.

jenni
12-03-2006, 03:34 PM
Whatever happened to reading books?,or dont todays kiddies have that ability? :hmm:

Do they just let Uncle Fritz teach them now?:whistle:

Contrary to popular belief a private coach isnt essential to chess success.:hand:

Ian Rogers still has a coach. :lol:

jenni
12-03-2006, 03:38 PM
Swimming and tennis are physical skills,chess is not.:rolleyes:
As usual you presume Im anti-coaching,which I am not.:rolleyes:
Your explanation for Fitzy's lack of success in chess is due to lack of coaching,coaching doesnt by its very nature give you success. Hard work however does.:whistle:

Oh for goodness sake - it was a joking comment in response to a joking comment that Smerdon was doing some coaching in return for beer. :wall: Andrew did work on his own and became a competent player - lots of reasons why he didn't go on to become a 2000+ player - one of them is lack of a strong coach to motivate him when he was little another is he had a whole life ranging from girls to soccer and probably didn't care enough to do it.

jenni
12-03-2006, 03:46 PM
2058!! ACT Wei, Michael
2054!! ACT Ikeda, Junta
2005!! ACT Oliver, Gareth

Tell me Libby,which of these juniors has never had coaching?:hmm:

None of these get weekly private coaching (unlike many of their peers interstate). None of these has had a coach since they were 11. The only coaching any of them has had has been

1. group coaching at one weekend at year that the ACTJCL organises
2. coaching at Aus Juniors and World youth

Gareth has had a bit of extra coaching as maybe once or twice a year Gary Lane comes to Canberra and stays with us for 2 days and coaches the 3 kids in between their usual hectic round of music, basketball, and other activities.

Michael and Junta particularly epitomise the approach you espouse, as they read constantly and most of their expertise comes from books.

four four two
12-03-2006, 03:54 PM
Does the ACTJL organise the Ergas squad?
Wasnt Junta and Michael part of the Ergas squad?
The point you still miss is that you implied Fitz had "talent" but couldnt get anywhere BECAUSE there was no high level coaching in Canberra in the past,that idea is patently false. Your notion wasnt a joke ,but was stated as a fact. :whistle:

jenni
12-03-2006, 04:10 PM
Does the ACTJL organise the Ergas squad?
Wasnt Junta and Michael part of the Ergas squad?
The point you still miss is that you implied Fitz had "talent" but couldnt get anywhere BECAUSE there was no high level coaching in Canberra in the past,that idea is patently false. Your notion wasnt a joke ,but was stated as a fact. :whistle:
Huh?? Since when does the ACT JCL organise the Australian Elite training squad. :lol: :lol:

What I was saying and it was a very lightweight remark in reply to a joking comment was that if Fitzy was growing up now in the Canberra we have created over the last 5 year he would probably be a much better player. If I knew it was going to be attacked I would have expanded the remark to a few pages.

When he was growing up in Canberra there was NO coaching organised by the ACTJCL, there was NO ACTJCL development squad. There was NO grandmaster coaching weekends. In fact when he played his last Aus Juniors in Sydney in 2002 I had to organise for him to be coached by Darryl Johansen as there was no-one we could find to coach him. The ACT team was a bit of a rabble with Laura Moylan trying to coach about 15 kids.

These days we have much more suport for players, so even if they don't have their own coach, like Michael, Junta, Gareth, Andrew Brown, Miona, Tamzin and many others, they still have encouragement to work on their own and the occasional access to interstate coaches.

We don't have Darryl and Geoff Saw and Leonid Sandler and Nick Speck and David Hacche and Carl Gorka and all the wonderful opportunities that Victorian kids do, but we create as much as we can for our ACT kids. However when Fitzy was growing up there was the ubiquitous Geoff Butler and Peter Simpson if you were one of the favoured few and that was it.

I don't disagree that kids can go quite far on their own, but it is faster with a trainer.

Libby
12-03-2006, 04:11 PM
Does the ACTJL organise the Ergas squad?

No, that is an ACF activity. Jenni's only role with ACTJCL - much as everyone continues to believe otherwise and much as she has been involved in the past - is as our nominated representative to the ACF sub committee.


Wasnt Junta and Michael part of the Ergas squad? yes but I thought I was answering something like -


Contrary to popular belief a private coach isnt essential to chess success.:hand: which I didn't take to mean ERGAS - a group coaching arrangement which is not always held in Canberra and is not an ACTJCL initiative.

You seem to miss the point I was making about the lack of 2000+ players for these kids to work with at all, play against, talk with, analyse with etc. I'm kind-of suggesting they prove you can make it to 2000+ by hitting the books. I think they could make it there faster with more exposure - week in and week out as they can at their local club in most other states - to play, coaching and discussion from others at or above their level. And we don't have that here, even with the fantastic advantages of ERGAS, or coaching weekends once or twice a year :rolleyes:

jenni
12-03-2006, 04:14 PM
Does the ACTJL organise the Ergas squad?
Wasnt Junta and Michael part of the Ergas squad?

:

The non ACTJCL organised squad is fantastic, but does not pretend to replace weekly coaching.

firegoat7
12-03-2006, 04:34 PM
Thread drift :owned: Thread drift :owned: Thread drift :owned:
Gletsos just watches as the thread drifts :owned: Worse its in a CHESS thread :owned: There is no policy, just prejudice :thumdown:

cheers Fg7

jenni
12-03-2006, 04:39 PM
Thread drift :owned: Thread drift :owned: Thread drift :owned:
Gletsos just watches as the thread drifts :owned: Worse its in a CHESS thread :owned: There is no policy, just prejudice :thumdown:

cheers Fg7

:lol: :lol: I actually agree with him. Someone should save the poor Begonia thread from this nonsensical spat.

Bill Gletsos
12-03-2006, 06:18 PM
:lol: :lol: I actually agree with him. Someone should save the poor Begonia thread from this nonsensical spat.I hadnt read todays posts in the Begonia thread until just now. If I had I would have split it sooner.

ElevatorEscapee
13-03-2006, 07:21 PM
Hi Fourfy, welcome back! :)

You have been MIA since December 2005. ;)

shaun
13-03-2006, 08:34 PM
I'd like to point out that the previous generation of ACT Juniors seemed to do OK with just a little bit of saturday morning chess (O'Brien, Pullicino, Reeves etc), while the generation before that (myself, Marshall, Hosking etc) were pretty much self taught (books and very weak computers) and even now the current generation of ACT juniors still struggle against us. So while I agree that coaching can help, don't use the lack of coaching as an excuse if you don't quite get to where you want to go.

PS. As for Peter Simpsons "favoured few", all you needed to do was to come down to his free coaching classes on Saturday mornings anytime over the last decade to avail yourself of his services.

firegoat7
13-03-2006, 08:56 PM
I hadnt read todays posts in the Begonia thread until just now. If I had I would have split it sooner.
Liar. I noticed that you read the thread yesterday when I was logged on. I put it to you that you only split the thread because Jenni agreed with my position. If Jenni had said nothing, you would have carried on with business as usual.

cheers fg7

firegoat7
13-03-2006, 08:57 PM
. So while I agree that coaching can help, don't use the lack of coaching as an excuse if you don't quite get to where you want to go.



:clap: :clap: It had to be said :clap: :clap:
cheers Fg7

jenni
13-03-2006, 09:17 PM
I'd like to point out that the previous generation of ACT Juniors seemed to do OK with just a little bit of saturday morning chess (O'Brien, Pullicino, Reeves etc), while the generation before that (myself, Marshall, Hosking etc) were pretty much self taught (books and very weak computers) and even now the current generation of ACT juniors still struggle against us. So while I agree that coaching can help, don't use the lack of coaching as an excuse if you don't quite get to where you want to go.

PS. As for Peter Simpsons "favoured few", all you needed to do was to come down to his free coaching classes on Saturday mornings anytime over the last decade to avail yourself of his services.

I'm not going to fight with you Shaun - enough of that in the 90's. :)

Of course you can get a long way being self taught.

As far as your ps goes nothing was meant to be derogatory about Peter - he has been a huge asset for Canberra for many years.

I guess I was referring to the fact that for some time Peter was only coaching privately (as opposed to free group coaching) Peter J and Marija. (as far as I knew anyway). Of course now he has a huge list of private pupils and an even bigger waiting list. He does it on a close to voluntary basis.

I will point out yet again that it was an off the cuff remark about Andrew and coaching that started this. Coaching helps - that was all I was saying. The fact that people can also achieve good results with self study is not denied.

firegoat7
13-03-2006, 09:27 PM
.

I will point out yet again that it was an off the cuff remark about Andrew and coaching that started this. Booohooo:boohoo:

cheers Fg7

jenni
13-03-2006, 09:31 PM
Booohooo:boohoo:

cheers Fg7

Overwhelmed with the wit and relevance of your response.