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qpawn
08-02-2006, 11:22 AM
rn1qkb1r/4pppp/p4n2/1p1p1b2/P2P1B2/1QN2N2/1P2PPPP/R3KB1R b KQkq a3 0 8

[Event "90'/40+90'/40+90'"]
[Site "Melbourne"]
[Date "2006.02.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Fritz 8"]
[Black "THORNTON, ANDREW."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D15"]
[WhiteElo "2515"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[TimeControl "40/5400:40/5400:5400"]

{72MB, Fritz8.ctg, DEFAULT} 1. d4 {0} d5 {8} 2. c4 {0} c6 {2} 3. Nc3 {0} Nf6 {3
} 4. Nf3 {0} a6 {36} 5. cxd5 {0} cxd5 {42} 6. Bf4 {last book move 0} Bf5 {132}
7. Qb3 {136} b5 {312} 8. a4 {181} e6!? [see diagram] {184} ({1.32 Fritz 8:} 8... b4 9. Qxb4 Nc6
10. Qb3 e6 11. e3 Nh5 12. Bg5 f6 13. Bh4 Bd6 {0.41/10}) 9. axb5 {186} a5 {23} (
{2.06 Fritz 8:} 9... Qb6 10. Nh4 Bg6 {1.36/9}) 10. b6 {356} Bb4 {46} 11. Bc7 {
111} Qc8 {215} 12. Qxb4 {165} axb4 {54} 13. Rxa8 {0} bxc3 {515} 14. Rxb8 {0}
Qxb8 {45} 15. Bxb8 {8} cxb2 {95} 16. Nd2 {209} Ne4 {273} 17. Nb1 {0} O-O ? {539}
({3.04 Fritz 8:} 17... Kd7 18. Bc7 Ra8 19. e3 Nd6 20. Kd2 Ne4+ {0.00/10} 21.
Ke1 Nd6 22. Kd2 Ne4+ 23. Ke1 Nd6 24. Kd2 {
Fritz notes that this is threefold rep for a technical draw.} Bxb1 25. Kc3 Ra2
26. Bxd6 Be4 27. Bd3 Kxd6 28. Bxe4 dxe4 29. Rb1 Kc6 30. Rxb2 Rxb2 31. Kxb2 Kxb6
32. f3 exf3 33. gxf3 Kb5 34. Kb3 g5 35. e4 f5 36. Kc3 h5 37. Kd3 Kb4 38. d5
exd5 39. exf5 Kc5 40. f6 Kd6 41. f7 Ke7 42. f8=Q+ Kxf8 43. Kd4 Kf7 44. Kxd5 Kf6
45. Ke4 h4 46. h3 Ke6 47. f4 gxf4 48. Kxf4 Kd5 49. Kf3 {book draw}) 18. Bc7 {
157} Nxf2 {96} 19. e4 {66} Bxe4 {88} ({5.11 Fritz 8:} 19... Nxe4 20. Bd3 Ng3
21. Bxf5 Nxf5 22. Rf1 Nxd4 23. Rf2 Nb3 24. Rxb2 Nc5 25. Kd2 Nb7 {3.46/11}) 20.
Kxf2 {51} Bxb1 {44} 21. Ke3 {21} Bc2 {134} ({6.32 Fritz 8:} 21... f5 22. b7 g5
23. b8=Q Rxb8 24. Bxb8 f4+ 25. Kd2 Be4 {4.60/9}) 22. Bd3 {63} b1=Q {27} 23.
Rxb1 {27} Bxb1 {46} 24. Bxb1 {68} f5 {178} 25. b7 {111} g5 {37} 26. Bd3 {84}
f4+ {79} 27. Kf2 {117} Kg7 {157} 28. Bb5 {77} Kf7 {88} ({13.52 Fritz 8:} 28...
Kg6 29. Bd6 Rd8 30. Bd7 g4 31. Bxf4 Rf8 32. b8=Q Rxb8 33. Bxb8 Kf5 34. Be5 {
7.97/10}) 29. Bd7 {97} 1-0

My points about this game:
This game was on unleashed with no handicap level or hints etc. Though I blundered in 17…0-0? It appears from the Fritz blundercheck that 8…e6!? leads to a draw with best play from both sides. This is surprising to me. When I sacrificed the pawn I was only looking for a pin on the knight; I didn’t see the “pawn race” that followed and after 11.Bc7 I expected to lose quickly.

Is this [8… e6!?] a new addition to theory in the slav? Of course the point of the slav is that unlike the orthodox QGD the black Q bishop gets developed or so the story goes. In reality Black’s b7 pawn can become a target for white; so is this sac of that a pawn a way of dealing with this issue?

Kevin Bonham
08-02-2006, 12:07 PM
Interesting game.

Chessbase has four games with 8.a4. In three cases ...bxa4 was played. The fourth, played by unrated players, has ...b4. Larger databases may have previous games.

Basically this is a case of Fritz picking what it thinks are the best moves but because the position is so sharp it strays into a drawing line in long-term complexities beyond its ability to fathom. When it plays 12.Qxb4 it reckons it is winning a piece and that your compensation is not sufficient, but it turns out that you have enough compensation to draw many moves later. Fritz can't see that and grabs the material.

Most likely Fritz's 12.Qxb4 is unsound and White should do something else here (why not just 12.Nh4 holding the pawn?) I doubt ...e6 is sound with best (ie strong human) play but it has tripped a mighty computer over its own horizon. :clap:

qpawn
08-02-2006, 12:21 PM
I agree with you that 8...e6 is probably not sound against a human player who, unlike Fritz, can actually think, evaluate and imagine! :)

Actually your point was one of my concerns: white finding a better move than appearing to win a piece by exchange sacrificing the queen. I had never got around to trying out alternatives for white; it appears from your look at it that there are indeed better ways for white to go!

It shows doesn't it that for all the ply power of a 2500+ silicon monster the human mind can still handle subtleties in chess that escape a mere machine's attention!

I can see based on this example why it is foolish to use a chess computer to cheat in postchess games!

It just feels so good to have fooled Fritz unleashed! :lol:

Kevin Bonham
08-02-2006, 12:39 PM
It shows doesn't it that for all the ply power of a 2500+ silicon monster the human mind can still handle subtleties in chess that escape a mere machine's attention!

I can see based on this example why it is foolish to use a chess computer to cheat in postchess games!

There is some good stuff on how to trip up computershere (http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/honor.htm).

I suspect a lot of postal players use computers for blundercheck purposes. But blindly following computer moves can easily lead to disaster.

qpawn
08-02-2006, 06:53 PM
That was one of the funniest articles I have ever read! That one about the king v's king ending where the computers kept on with it for about 400 moves! :) That was hilarious!

Fritz 8 is about as stupid. The slav game in this thread went to a king v's king and rook pawn ending in which the lone king had first access to the queening square. Of course us human know it's a draw. But Fritz doesn't. It thinks that it can still win with the extra pawn! :lol:

Duff McKagan
12-02-2006, 01:09 PM
Let's get real... use tablebases, a p-iv and 512MB ram and none of this stuff happens. And an engine like Fritz 8 would help itself in a long time control game.

MichaelBaron
06-05-2006, 01:31 PM
[QUOTE=qpawn]rn1qkb1r/4pppp/p4n2/1p1p1b2/P2P1B2/1QN2N2/1P2PPPP/R3KB1R b KQkq a3 0 8

[Event "90'/40+90'/40+90'"]
[Site "Melbourne"]
[Date "2006.02.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Fritz 8"]
[Black "THORNTON, ANDREW."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D15"]
[WhiteElo "2515"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[TimeControl "40/5400:40/5400:5400"]

{72MB, Fritz8.ctg, DEFAULT} 1. d4 {0} d5 {8} 2. c4 {0} c6 {2} 3. Nc3 {0} Nf6 {3
} 4. Nf3 {0} a6 {36} 5. cxd5 {0} cxd5 {42} 6. Bf4 {last book move 0} Bf5 {132}
7. Qb3 {136} b5 {312} 8. a4 {181} [see diagram] {184} ({1.32 Fritz 8:} 8... b4 9. Qxb4 Nc6
10. Qb3 e6 11. e3 Nh5 12. Bg5 f6 13. Bh4 Bd6 {0.41/10}) 9. axb5 {186} a5 {23} (
{2.06 Fritz 8:} 9... Qb6 10. Nh4 Bg6 {1.36/9}) 10. b6 {356} Bb4 {46} 11. Bc7 {
111} Qc8 {215} 12. Qxb4 {165} axb4 {54} 13. Rxa8 {0} bxc3 {515} 14. Rxb8 {0}
Kxb6


8...b4!? is an intersting try but black's position appears to be dubious already. One good reason to play b4 is that after 8..ba white has a clear edge.
6...Bf5?! appears to be overoptimistic. I suspect it could be a mistake

Jesse Jager
08-05-2006, 01:38 PM
i think 6.Nc6 maybe the correct move