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Bill Gletsos
02-02-2004, 06:11 PM
Byteh way, what does your custom title mean, supreme leader?
I'll leave that as an exercise for you or maybe someone else will comment. :wink:

Bill Gletsos
02-02-2004, 06:15 PM
Byteh way, what does your custom title mean, supreme leader?
Perhaps eventually sometime in the future before the day the earth stands still you will discover its meaning. :wink:

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 07:02 PM
Perhaps eventually sometime in the future before the day the earth stands still you will discover its meaning. :wink:

You might have to wait that long to see SFX worse than in that one.

There could be a thread in that. Worst SFX.

chesslover
02-02-2004, 07:53 PM
Perhaps eventually sometime in the future before the day the earth stands still you will discover its meaning. :wink:

what language is that custome title in?

i like the meaning it is good... :)

when I get custom, i was going to put something like the "Lord is my shepherd" or "Jesus Loves you"

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 08:00 PM
when I get custom, i was going to put something like the "Lord is my shepherd" or "Jesus Loves you"

How about "Jesus is way cool"?

BTW The ban on overly religious displays in French schools is set to start soon, isn't it? Anyone know what happened with this one?

skip to my lou
02-02-2004, 08:00 PM
whats the meaning?

I think it has something to do with aliens and star wars

skip to my lou
02-02-2004, 08:04 PM
what language is that custome title in?

i like the meaning it is good... :)

when I get custom, i was going to put something like the "Lord is my shepherd" or "Jesus Loves you"
Did Jesus tell you that he loves you?

So if the "lord" is your shepard, im assuming you believe in FATE?

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 08:04 PM
whats the meaning?

I think it has something to do with aliens and star wars

If it was star wars it would be long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away. :)

Actually Lucas, being a bit of a film buff, I think makes reference to this phrase in one of his films (Return of the Jedi, I think). But going on Bill's enormous hint he was clearly talking about the real deal.

arosar
02-02-2004, 08:06 PM
BTW The ban on overly religious displays in French schools is set to start soon, isn't it? Anyone know what happened with this one?

In my view, the French are simply overdoing it. I understand the need for secularism but the new laws are plain stupid. Now even the Sikhs are upset. What I can't actually wait to see is an alliance between jews and muslims. This could be fun.

AR

chesslover
02-02-2004, 08:19 PM
what many people do not realise is that France is a christian country, and this secular law applies also to christians.

The equating of christianity with islam is wrong, for a christian country like France. In Saudi, iran and other muslim countries, you cannot even have a church and pray to Jesus, as islam is the only religion allowed.

Yet a strong christian country like France is trying to ban the cross from the school. They obviously have no regard for their christian heritage, or how this is not reciprocated in the muslim countries :mad:

However Reverend Fred Niles here supports the policy to ban the muslim veils (but not the fact that the law applies equally to christians) and indeed made that proposal here, although the ethnic lobby called him racist and attacked him

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 08:45 PM
what many people do not realise is that France is a christian country, and this secular law applies also to christians.

That's right. One law for the rich and poor. No sleeping under bridges or stealing bread.

As a rule, Christians don't wear overtly religous garb. Jews and muslims on the other hand do. Perhaps if it was common for Christians to carry around full size wooden crosses then this law would be secular. As this is not the case, it would seem to be aimed at particular minority groups for no sensible reason.

chesslover
02-02-2004, 08:57 PM
That's right. One law for the rich and poor. No sleeping under bridges or stealing bread.

As a rule, Christians don't wear overtly religous garb. Jews and muslims on the other hand do. Perhaps if it was common for Christians to carry around full size wooden crosses then this law would be secular. As this is not the case, it would seem to be aimed at particular minority groups for no sensible reason.

I would have thought that rabid secularists like you and the Grand Poobah, would be happy with the French law, as it will ensure that the state and religion are seperate

The main purpose of the law is to simply ensure that the state does not promote religion, and that france is a secular country

Yet the same secular liberals who oppose prayers in school in the US on the grounds that the state is promoting religion, oppose the laws that will ban noticeable religious symbols in public schools, a move that will reinforce the legal separation of church and state. :confused:

Note that in France, there are 5 million Muslims and 600,000 Jews in this traditionally Christian country of 60 million.

skip to my lou
02-02-2004, 09:03 PM
infact, I can do that, hang on..

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 09:25 PM
I would have thought that rabid secularists like you and the Grand Poobah, would be happy with the French law, as it will ensure that the state and religion are seperate

The main purpose of the law is to simply ensure that the state does not promote religion, and that france is a secular country

Yet the same secular liberals who oppose prayers in school in the US on the grounds that the state is promoting religion, oppose the laws that will ban noticeable religious symbols in public schools, a move that will reinforce the legal separation of church and state. :confused:

Note that in France, there are 5 million Muslims and 600,000 Jews in this traditionally Christian country of 60 million.

I'm against the teaching of religious beliefs (as facts) or compulsory religious observance in schools. I have no problem with people expressing their religious identity in a non-overt, non-threatening way. School is a part of society not a sterile mono-cultural environment. To pretend otherwise is fraught with danger.

Unless of course you also believe the same ban should apply to all public places.

Alan Shore
02-02-2004, 09:28 PM
Klaatu Barada Nikto, the words to stop the wrath of Sweeney, I mean, Gort! (and yep, also in Star Wars, and Army of Darkness, hehe)

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 09:32 PM
Klaatu Barada Nikto, the words to stop the wrath of Sweeney, I mean, Gort! (and yep, also in Star Wars, and Army of Darkness, hehe)

Woohoo, we have a winner. That's a paddlin'. (Great avatar, btw)

OK so who's up for some more sci fi movie trivia?

In Back to the Future the movie house is showing a double feature. The movies are "Watch the Skies" and "A Boy's Life". Does anyone know why? (And no looking it up). :)

chesslover
02-02-2004, 09:48 PM
I'm against the teaching of religious beliefs (as facts) or compulsory religious observance in schools. I have no problem with people expressing their religious identity in a non-overt, non-threatening way. School is a part of society not a sterile mono-cultural environment. To pretend otherwise is fraught with danger.

Unless of course you also believe the same ban should apply to all public places.

1. This only applies to public schools in France, not private, as I understand it. Thus if any parent felt that they wanted an exclusive religious education for their child, they can always go to a private christian/jewish/ muslim school

2. How can you express your religious identity in a "non overt" way? If you wear a cross, wear a veil, then you are being overt in your expression of your religious identity

3. What do you think about the fact that whilst western "christian" countries, become secular and distance state and religion, and treat all religions equally, including religions that were not the basis of their countries culture and traditions, countries like Saudi and Iran and Libya only have Islam as their official and only state religion? Is that fair? why should not the west demand that all muslim countries give equal protection to christianity before we do the same to islam in our christian heartlands?

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 10:10 PM
1. This only applies to public schools in France, not private, as I understand it. Thus if any parent felt that they wanted an exclusive religious education for their child, they can always go to a private christian/jewish/ muslim school

2. How can you express your religious identity in a "non overt" way? If you wear a cross, wear a veil, then you are being overt in your expression of your religious identity

3. What do you think about the fact that whilst western "christian" countries, become secular and distance state and religion, and treat all religions equally, including religions that were not the basis of their countries culture and traditions, countries like Saudi and Iran and Libya only have Islam as their official and only state religion? Is that fair? why should not the west demand that all muslim countries give equal protection to christianity before we do the same to islam in our christian heartlands?

1. The golden rule. If you don't like the public system use private. Spoken like a true republican.

2. A veil, cap, crucifix are all non-overt, unless you know some reason why people should not wear hats or jewellry. If I was clip my hair and have death to jews tattooed into the back of my neck, that would be overt.

3. This is already happening via the UN.

chesslover
02-02-2004, 10:42 PM
1. The golden rule. If you don't like the public system use private. Spoken like a true republican.

2. A veil, cap, crucifix are all non-overt, unless you know some reason why people should not wear hats or jewellry. If I was clip my hair and have death to jews tattooed into the back of my neck, that would be overt.

3. This is already happening via the UN.

but just a second

1. a public school should either be secular and have no religious teachings, or it should make allowances for religion. You cannot have it both ways

I would prefer that my public school teach about jesus, but given the fact that I would like my daughter to go to a christian school and learn christian morals I would in anycase send her to a private school

All France is doing is to make sure that the public schools are secular, and that there is seperation of church and state, and there is no religious display. The public schools are secular, and if people do not like that they can always go to a private school, which by the way are not very expensive for they are subsidised partly by their religious organisations

2. It may be happening via the UN, but there is still no change in Saudi, and other countries where islam is the state religion is there?

Rincewind
02-02-2004, 10:49 PM
but just a second

1. a public school should either be secular and have no religious teachings, or it should make allowances for religion. You cannot have it both ways

I would prefer that my public school teach about jesus, but given the fact that I would like my daughter to go to a christian school and learn christian morals I would in anycase send her to a private school

All France is doing is to make sure that the public schools are secular, and that there is seperation of church and state, and there is no religious display. The public schools are secular, and if people do not like that they can always go to a private school, which by the way are not very expensive for they are subsidised partly by their religious organisations

2. It may be happening via the UN, but there is still no change in Saudi, and other countries where islam is the state religion is there?

1. If you can't see the difference between a school actively promoting a particular religion; and, allowing its students to express a particular religious identity in a socially acceptable way; then there is no hope for you.

2. Well the UN is a good idea but either you believe in the sovereignty of national statehood or you don't. Oh, that's right you are a Bush lover. Of course the West should impose its will on everyone else. They have the most money and are, therefore, God's chosen people. (PS I'm being sarcastic)

Kevin Bonham
02-02-2004, 11:06 PM
1. If you can't see the difference between a school actively promoting a particular religion; and, allowing its students to express a particular religious identity in a socially acceptable way; then there is no hope for you.

My position on this is exactly the same as Barry's as thus far expressed - there is a clear difference between using the school to promote religion and allowing a student to express their culture through their dress sense (within reason) on school grounds.

Obviously rumours of our rabidity have been greatly exaggerated. :p

chesslover
02-02-2004, 11:21 PM
My position on this is exactly the same as Barry's as thus far expressed - there is a clear difference between using the school to promote religion and allowing a student to express their culture through their dress sense (within reason) on school grounds.

Obviously rumours of our rabidity have been greatly exaggerated. :p

you both realise that many feminists also do not like the muslim women wearing veils as they state that it demeans females, and enables men to treat females as possessions? that there is also much opposistion to female genitle mutilatitions carried out by african immigrants as part of their culture?

so if a female muslim wears a veil to school, then what about her secular rights to be treated as equally as males of her culture?

Cat
02-02-2004, 11:22 PM
Teaching of religious values and promotion of religious beliefs are not necessarily the same thing. For many communities their cultural heritage is centred on their religious belief. It helps to provide identity and a sense of morality and social responsibility. Its a very important part of a young person's education. Without this many juveniles suffer from lack of identity, have difficulty finding suitable role models and there is a potential for a new generation to emerge without any sense of community and society.

It is too simplistic to dismiss religious teachings as trivial and irrelevant. It underpins much of what constitutes culture in many parts of the world and many communities within Western societies. Depriving them of the right to explore their religious belief within mainstream society threatens to alienate their culture and is simply the wrong approach. What constitutes a community and culture is complex and cannot be reduced by simplistic rationalism. Many of these belief systems are engrained, have lasted generations and not only is there a risk of alienating religious groups, but also there is a risk of alienating a younger generation from their parents and grandparents.

I know that many cultural and religious beliefs can lead to bigotry and conflict, but to attempt to deconstruct this inheritance in a generation will lead to chaos. Quite simply parents and grandparents are the providers of discipline and moral responsibility to the next generation. If they loose the respect of that generation it will lead to a moral vacuum.

During teenage years adolescent are faced with the struggle of assuming an identity, an adult persona. They crave the respect of their peers and so strong is this need for acceptance they are vulnerable to every crazy idea, whim and fashion that seems to lead to instant popularity. In a land of shifting sands some rocks and guiding beacons provide direction. It may be that the direction seems wayward to us, but its how human societies have existed for centuries. Who can possibily be the judge of the message, who could dare stand between parent and child? Surely it's the right of every parent to raise their child as they see fit, who can walk in another man's shoes?

Alan Shore
03-02-2004, 08:46 AM
you both realise that many feminists also do not like the muslim women wearing veils as they state that it demeans females, and enables men to treat females as possessions? that there is also much opposistion to female genitle mutilatitions carried out by african immigrants as part of their culture?

so if a female muslim wears a veil to school, then what about her secular rights to be treated as equally as males of her culture?

The feminists however, are misguided on this one - the veil, and more typically the hijab (scarf) is traditionally a show of modesty, and protection for the woman. Indeed, it is the woman's religious right as well as secular to be treated equally, yet because western culture does not correlate too well, it can be easy to have such misconceptions. If you've seen 'The Last Samurai' there are a few scenes that illustrate this cultural gulf between east and west.

Regarding the French legislation, one can only hope the distinction between expression and promotion does not become blurred and those standing up for their personal religious rights do not become persecuted by their peers and such. Time will tell to what extent the government's wishes will be carried out, but I believe it may prove to be problematic for some to retain religious identities without being subjected to some negative comments and actions.

Oh and thanks Barry, Jasper is my favourite Simpsons character, hehe :)

Kevin Bonham
03-02-2004, 02:45 PM
you both realise that many feminists also do not like the muslim women wearing veils as they state that it demeans females, and enables men to treat females as possessions?

True, but it does not give those feminists the right to ban a woman who wishes to wear one from doing so.


that there is also much opposistion to female genitle mutilatitions carried out by african immigrants as part of their culture?

Irrelevant to this debate.


so if a female muslim wears a veil to school, then what about her secular rights to be treated as equally as males of her culture?

There are two possibilities, firstly she is doing so willingly, in which case her right is not violated, she simply chooses not to exercise it. Secondly she is forced to do so against her will by family, in which case let me pose a similar scenario:

(*) So if a girl from a fundamentalist Christian family is sent to church against her will and hears that a wife should always obey her husband, then what about her secular rights to be treated equally with males of her culture?

Where do you draw the line?

Kevin Bonham
03-02-2004, 02:55 PM
A note about correct usage of the word "deconstruct". "Deconstruct" is often incorrectly used to mean destroy, disassemble or refute. Actually deconstruction is a method of analysis in which a belief or work (generally philosophical or literary) is criticised, not by tackling its substance, but by attempting to expose the motives underlying it. Nietzsche's attack on morality as a mask for resentment of the strong and powerful is an early example, and the style then became popular amongst the French "postmodernist" crowd.

Rincewind
04-02-2004, 11:26 PM
In Back to the Future the movie house is showing a double feature. The movies are "Watch the Skies" and "A Boy's Life". Does anyone know why? (And no looking it up). :)

Answer: They were the working titles of two previous Spielberg films. Close Encounters and ET, respectively.

Lucena
20-04-2004, 09:33 AM
Perhaps if it was common for Christians to carry around full size wooden crosses then this law would be secular.It's funny you should say that-there's a group of people at my university who carry around a very large wooden cross about once or twice a week

Lucena
20-04-2004, 09:39 AM
That's a paddlin'.

Damn! I wanted to say that! :doh: :doh: :doh:

arosar
20-04-2004, 09:54 AM
Mr Charles. You are hereby requested to amend or delete your avatar. You have 24 hours to comply with this request.

AR

Lucena
20-04-2004, 09:57 AM
what many people do not realise is that France is a christian country, and this secular law applies also to christians.



Yet a strong christian country like France is trying to ban the cross from the school. They obviously have no regard for their christian heritage
the secularisation of French government schools was inextricably linked to the development of france as a republic and is part of french history and national identity. The secular nature of schools is consequently very closely guarded. Contrary to what CL asserts, the French are not so much going back on their Catholic heritage as sticking to their secular republican heritage. It just appears to me that they've gone too far now.

This all has an intricate history going back to the Revolution and the Enlightenment and if anyone is curious I shall try to explain further when I have the time.

Lucena
20-04-2004, 10:02 AM
Mr Charles. You are hereby requested to amend or delete your avatar. You have 24 hours to comply with this request.

AR

hehehe I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that :D

who's asking? you or Jose?

Lucena
20-04-2004, 10:16 AM
Mr Charles. You are hereby requested to amend or delete your avatar. You have 24 hours to comply with this request.

AROr what? You'll set chesslover on me? :D :D

Lucena
20-04-2004, 10:24 AM
Mr Charles. You are hereby requested to amend or delete your avatar. You have 24 hours to comply with this request.

AR

"what are you gonna do? Release the hounds? Or the bees? Or hounds with bees in their mouths, and when they bark they shoot bees at you?"-Homer Simpson

Rincewind
20-04-2004, 11:51 AM
Damn! I wanted to say that! :doh: :doh: :doh:

It was more poignant when Dion was using the Jasper avatar. But your present one is also raising some eyebrows amoung the pinoy mafia. ;)

Garvinator
20-04-2004, 11:56 AM
silly question, who is gareth's avator?

Bill Gletsos
20-04-2004, 11:57 AM
silly question, who is gareth's avator?
Jose.

Lucena
20-04-2004, 03:38 PM
It was more poignant when Dion was using the Jasper avatar. But your present one is also raising some eyebrows amoung the pinoy mafia. ;)yes I meant in reference to that avatar he was using before. And what's pinoy mean?

Garvinator
20-04-2004, 06:12 PM
Jose.
thank you, now i know who to ask, are you chesslover, when i see him at the nsw open or somewhere :owned: ;)