PDA

View Full Version : are there other intelligent life on the universe?



chesslover
14-01-2004, 10:03 PM
NASA is expected to send a manned space craft to Mars. Also President Bush has announced that for the first time since 1972, man will again go to the moon, and that there will be a permanent space station in the moon. For the first time since President JFK announced the moon program, the world seems to be on the brink of a new space age.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/14/bush.space/index.html

There is also billions of dollars being spent on the SETI program, and unmanned vehicles have been sent to mars.

This begs the question. Does intelligent life exist elsewhere in the universe? carl sagan and other astronomers have predicted that other life does exist, and the proof of other planets and suns seem to back this up. In the billions and billions of planet, there should surely be life other than on earth? However the fact that life exist, does not mean that intelligence life exists - life that exist could be like bacteria.

Also almost all sane astronmers, believe that if intelligence life exists, the only way to communicate with them will be through transmissions, and even then it will take light years for a two way communication to be undertaken.

Also UFO conspiracy nuts aside, intelligent alien life will not visit the earth, due to the vast vast vast distances involved

Cat
14-01-2004, 10:23 PM
Are there other intelligent life on earth?

I hope there's intelligent life 'out there' because there's bugger-all down here!

Rincewind
14-01-2004, 11:11 PM
I find the argument compelling that given the vastness of the universe that we are not the only "intelligent" lifeforms to evolve. Whether it makes any practical difference (ie is there any chance of ever interacting with a ETI) is a very different question. I would say the odds don't look near as good. But still we must look.

As Richard Feynman said, "Science is like sex: sometimes something useful comes out, but that is not the reason we are doing it"

Kevin Bonham
14-01-2004, 11:29 PM
I find the argument compelling that given the vastness of the universe that we are not the only "intelligent" lifeforms to evolve.

Same here. To assume that there are not other highly complex lifeforms seems a far harder position to defend than assuming that there very probably are some somewhere.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 06:00 PM
If you are a believer in evolution on earth, then you can point to the numberous vastness of space, the billions of planets and suns that exist and state that the odds favour intelligence life elsewhere.

On the other hand if you believe in creation, then life only exists on earth. Also it raises interesting theological questions if life exists elsewhere - did Jesus for example die for humans only on earth, or for all intelligent beings in the universe?

Also even if you believe in evolution, the chances of something arising from the simple organisms are very very small. It took a lot of time, and conditions for life to first arise. Maybe that is so rare, so that although there are billions of planets, life can only rise so rarely that it arose in the planet that we call earth?

I have an open mind on this question, of wether there is intelligent life out there

chesslover
15-01-2004, 06:08 PM
I find the argument compelling that given the vastness of the universe that we are not the only "intelligent" lifeforms to evolve. Whether it makes any practical difference (ie is there any chance of ever interacting with a ETI) is a very different question.

very good point - there are realy 2 different questions.

1.. is there other intelligent life in the universe?

2. and if so, does it make any difference, as we may never be able to interact with the aliens. If there are intelligent lifew, then it is like finding a needle in a haystack, and the only way we can ever find it is by using the current SETI project of listening in on transmissions. The fact that we have still not found anything does not mean that there is nothing to find and aliens fo not exist - rather it may show that life is even rarer than we think, or we are looking at the wrong parts of the universe

Also if there are aliens out there is it in our interest to communicate with them? Given the history of contact of superior civilisatiosn with inferior civilisations in Australia, Americas and Africa, it may really not be in Earth's interest to communicate with superior aliens

Not all aliens are going to be like the Vulcans, who in Star Trek, noticed the cochrane drive and visited earth and selflessly guided us into the space age

Bill Gletsos
15-01-2004, 06:11 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here. :shock:


On the other hand if you believe in creation, then life only exists on earth.
Why must this be the case.
Surely it is possible to believe in creation and believe that God created life throughout the universe, not just on earth.


Also it raises interesting theological questions if life exists elsewhere - did Jesus for example die for humans only on earth, or for all intelligent beings in the universe?
Same argument as above.
Could not the equivalent of Jesus(i.e. the son of god) also have appeared on other planets.
After all if I was an alien on another planet how would I know about Jesus and his dying. It would make sense that God would repeat the process of Jesus being born and dying on other planets at well so that those planets had their "local" equivalent to earth's experience with Jesus.

Bill Gletsos
15-01-2004, 06:13 PM
Also even if you believe in evolution, the chances of something arising from the simple organisms are very very small. It took a lot of time, and conditions for life to first arise. Maybe that is so rare, so that although there are billions of planets, life can only rise so rarely that it arose in the planet that we call earth?
Thats a pretty long bow your drawing there.
Also remember the universe has been around for billions of years. Thats a pretty long time dont you think.

arosar
15-01-2004, 06:36 PM
I was gonna start a poll with the question: "Did the Americans land on the moon?" I was also prompted by the same news cited by CL above.

Did you guys see that doco on TV some months back that basically challenged the view that USA landed on the moon? The producers cited evidence such as the shadow, the flag, the sunlight, etc, etc.

Whaddya fellas reckon?

AR

chesslover
15-01-2004, 06:58 PM
I was gonna start a poll with the question: "Did the Americans land on the moon?" I was also prompted by the same news cited by CL above.

Did you guys see that doco on TV some months back that basically challenged the view that USA landed on the moon? The producers cited evidence such as the shadow, the flag, the sunlight, etc, etc.

Whaddya fellas reckon?

AR

the same idiotswho belive that americans did not land on the moon also believe that there are UFOs :D

as if aliens would come here from thousands of light years away, land in a farm and scare some farmers and even anally probe them and then fly back to their homeland :o

chesslover
15-01-2004, 07:01 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here. :shock:


On the other hand if you believe in creation, then life only exists on earth.
Why must this be the case.
Surely it is possible to believe in creation and believe that God created life throughout the universe, not just on earth.


Also it raises interesting theological questions if life exists elsewhere - did Jesus for example die for humans only on earth, or for all intelligent beings in the universe?
Same argument as above.
Could not the equivalent of Jesus(i.e. the son of god) also have appeared on other planets.
After all if I was an alien on another planet how would I know about Jesus and his dying. It would make sense that God would repeat the process of Jesus being born and dying on other planets at well so that those planets had their "local" equivalent to earth's experience with Jesus.

But that woudl mean billions of Jesuses. dying in a billion of planets for the sins of teh aliens, and rising up to go to heaven? :rolleyes:

Also if we humans were created in the image of God, then whose image are aliens created in - or are they too humans? :?

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 07:14 PM
Also if we humans were created in the image of God, then whose image are aliens created in - or are they too humans? :?

What does "created in the image" mean in this sense? How can a corporeal being look like an incorporeal being?

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 07:33 PM
Also even if you believe in evolution, the chances of something arising from the simple organisms are very very small.

Once you have simple organisms passing on genes and with mutations capable of having selective advantages then evolution to more complex forms is not unlikely but rather more or less inevitable.


It took a lot of time, and conditions for life to first arise. Maybe that is so rare, so that although there are billions of planets, life can only rise so rarely that it arose in the planet that we call earth?

Claims for the extreme unlikeliness of life on earth having arisen are frequently made, but tend to be based on oversimplifications of how more simple chemicals could have developed into living cells, or tend to be based on statistical errors in probability calculations. If you've got evidence that life is that unlikely to arise over the time frame observed, feel free to share it, but there is currently no sound reason to believe this to be so.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 07:44 PM
Also if we humans were created in the image of God, then whose image are aliens created in - or are they too humans? :?

What does "created in the image" mean in this sense? How can a corporeal being look like an incorporeal being?

Good question - maybe the BB's Machiavelli can articulate it better than I can...

What about Jesus? He was God yet became man (like us) so that he can die for our sins. He was thus corporeal during the time he spent with us humans - which means that an incorporeal entity like God, can create humans in his image

Also Man, created in the image of God, is a being both corporeal and spiritual. You also have to consider that we when reference is made to being created in God's image, that the reference is to our soul being in God's image, as is the possibility of our mind being created in God's image.

Personally, I am not fussed or worked up by any of this. This is all part of the mystery of faith. We are like ants trying to fathom the understanding of God, from our puny perspective

chesslover
15-01-2004, 07:52 PM
Claims for the extreme unlikeliness of life on earth having arisen are frequently made, but tend to be based on oversimplifications of how more simple chemicals could have developed into living cells, or tend to be based on statistical errors in probability calculations. If you've got evidence that life is that unlikely to arise over the time frame observed, feel free to share it, but there is currently no sound reason to believe this to be so.

I do not have any evidence to support the unlikliness of life arising on earth, as I am not a creationist or evolutionist. I know that God created the earth, but whether that was through evolution or creation is immaterial to the fundemental truth - that it was God that created us.

I guess if we have evidence showing that life is so unlikely to arise on earth, even with the huge time frames and the large number of planets around, then the evidence that there is no intelligent life out there is so much stronger.

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 09:04 PM
What about Jesus? He was God yet became man (like us) so that he can die for our sins. He was thus corporeal during the time he spent with us humans - which means that an incorporeal entity like God, can create humans in his image

The whole 3=1 thing gets a bit confusing for me a lot of the time. Are you saying all of God was corporeal or just some of God was corporeal, during this time?


Also Man, created in the image of God, is a being both corporeal and spiritual. You also have to consider that we when reference is made to being created in God's image, that the reference is to our soul being in God's image, as is the possibility of our mind being created in God's image.

That doesn't help either. How are human minds/spirits/souls/(other philosophically unsubstantiated entities) able to be in the image of a supposedly all-powerful all-knowing all-good God, when humans display none of these characters?


We are like ants trying to fathom the understanding of God, from our puny perspective

Assuming there is, in some sense, a God, this is often my point exactly. Trying to know God through scriptures, institutions, warm fuzy feelings, fallible intuitions, dodgy inferences of historical events and philosophy replete with unprovable assumptions is all extremely presumptive. If there is a God then it is very unlikely that any of us have even the slightest idea of what She is really up to.


I know that God created the earth

No you don't, you only think that.


I guess if we have evidence showing that life is so unlikely to arise on earth, even with the huge time frames and the large number of planets around, then the evidence that there is no intelligent life out there is so much stronger.

Maybe, but we need that evidence first, and at present, there isn't any.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 09:11 PM
Assuming there is, in some sense, a God, this is often my point exactly. Trying to know God through scriptures, institutions, warm fuzy feelings, fallible intuitions, dodgy inferences of historical events and philosophy replete with unprovable assumptions is all extremely presumptive. If there is a God then it is very unlikely that any of us have even the slightest idea of what She is really up to.


1. I have faith and belief and that is enough for me. No need for all of this petty points, as we get caught up in mere details instead of looking at the big picture - ie God creating us, sending Jesus to die for our sins, having faith in Jesus etc

2. Stop blaspheming by calling God a she. I refuse to be provoked by your vile ruses :x

Why is it okay for atheists to attack christians, and insult us, and make funny remarks on our faith, when if the situation was reversed it is deemed not acceptable?

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 09:47 PM
2. Stop blaspheming by calling God a she. I refuse to be provoked by your vile ruses :x

This is only blasphemy against a real God (rather than probably invalud instituitons erected in God's name) if God is in fact male (and cares). But if a God exists, and is not the God of the Bible, then there is no more reason to assume that that God is masculine than feminine, or even that God has a gender at all. And if God is female then maybe She might consider the entire history of Christianity to be nothing but one long blasphemy. :P


Why is it okay for atheists to attack christians, and insult us, and make funny remarks on our faith, when if the situation was reversed it is deemed not acceptable?

By who? There are atheists who think attacking Christians over their religion is unacceptable. There are also Christians who get bristly if anyone even rationally discusses the shortcomings of the arguments for their faith, but who expect to be able to say whatever they like about atheists. This sort of double standard can be found among some people on both sides - while there are also some on both sides who lack it. To stereotype it as if only one side ever has the double standard is incorrect and pointless.

In my case, anyone should feel free to attack atheism and insult it, except that if their attack is invalid or silly they can expect to be taken to task. And that's the same standard I'm attempting to apply to Christianity - except that there is much more in Christianity that is easy to dispute.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 09:59 PM
2. Stop blaspheming by calling God a she. I refuse to be provoked by your vile ruses :x

This is only blasphemy against a real God (rather than probably invalud instituitons erected in God's name) if God is in fact male (and cares). But if a God exists, and is not the God of the Bible, then there is no more reason to assume that that God is masculine than feminine, or even that God has a gender at all. And if God is female then maybe She might consider the entire history of Christianity to be nothing but one long blasphemy. :P


Why is it okay for atheists to attack christians, and insult us, and make funny remarks on our faith, when if the situation was reversed it is deemed not acceptable?

By who? There are atheists who think attacking Christians over their religion is unacceptable. There are also Christians who get bristly if anyone even rationally discusses the shortcomings of the arguments for their faith, but who expect to be able to say whatever they like about atheists. This sort of double standard can be found among some people on both sides - while there are also some on both sides who lack it. To stereotype it as if only one side ever has the double standard is incorrect and pointless.

In my case, anyone should feel free to attack atheism and insult it, except that if their attack is invalid or silly they can expect to be taken to task. And that's the same standard I'm attempting to apply to Christianity - except that there is much more in Christianity that is easy to dispute.

Fine, when you are in hell for eternity for rejecting Jesus, let us see how your formidable intellectual skills save you....

And God is a male. Even the muslims agree on that as do the Jews. Are you saying that all the monotheist religions are wrong?

Have you little intellectual fun with christians. Hope you enjoy hell for eternity :x

At least christians believe in God and eternal life through faith in Jesus. What do you athesists belive in but yourself? where is your eternal life in heaven?

chesslover
15-01-2004, 10:01 PM
I think there was some "thread trasnsposition" here...

is there life out there? if so, how do we contact it? or should we even try to contact it, because we may end up as galactic food :P

Currently space and mars seem to be the hot topic as a result of the new iniative by the US Government

Cat
15-01-2004, 10:16 PM
How many times has life evolved on earth, once, twice, a billion times? Is it still evolving spontaneously? If life can evolve a number of times in different environments on this planet, then it must have evolved billions of times in an essentially infinite multiverse, with a variety of environments and dimensions we cannot even begin to imagine.

Perhaps another way of looking at the question is to say "are we unique or are there other beings out there that think they're alone?"

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 10:31 PM
Fine, when you are in hell for eternity for rejecting Jesus, let us see how your formidable intellectual skills save you....

Since I believe that my chances of winding up there are no worse than anyone else's, that sort of threat really doesn't bother me.

And that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The Bible, on that interpretation, says that if you do not accept Jesus you will be punished, no matter what your reason. Now, I happen to find that quite insulting, because it's implying that my life is wasted unless I follow their line - so I find it funny when Christians dish out hellfire to me and then complain about me insulting their beliefs.


And God is a male. Even the muslims agree on that as do the Jews. Are you saying that all the monotheist religions are wrong?

All the monotheistic religions come from patriarchal societies so it's no surprise they all think God's a guy. It proves nothing about whether God (if there is one) is a guy or not.


Have you little intellectual fun with christians. Hope you enjoy hell for eternity :x

As I always say when confronted by such terrifying threats, "I'll see ya there then, I'll be the one with the whip!" :shock:


At least christians believe in God and eternal life through faith in Jesus. What do you athesists belive in but yourself? where is your eternal life in heaven?

Who cares? Belief is only a virtue where the thing believed in is likely to be true.

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 10:41 PM
How many times has life evolved on earth, once, twice, a billion times? Is it still evolving spontaneously? If life can evolve a number of times in different environments on this planet, then it must have evolved billions of times in an essentially infinite multiverse, with a variety of environments and dimensions we cannot even begin to imagine.

We have no idea how many times life has evolved on earth. We do know that there's very strong evidence of universal descent for all currently known and living organisms. Also there's nothing in the fossil record that contradicts universal descent for known fossil organisms.

So if there have been other cases of life evolving on earth, it's likely they were either very early in the earth's history, or else very unsuccessful. But still, who knows?


Perhaps another way of looking at the question is to say "are we unique or are there other beings out there that think they're alone?"

Indeed. I wonder what their bulletin-boards are like.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 10:43 PM
using logic, ;

1. Either there is God or there is no God

2. If there is God, and you do what HE states you will go to heaven for eternity. If you do not do what HE states you will go to hell for eternity

Thus if you believe in God and do what is stated you will be in heaven for eternity

If you do not believe in God, or do what God tells you to do, you will be in hell for eternity

3. If there is no God, then it does not matter as there is no eternity of hell or heaven

If you believe in God, then it does not matter that there is no God

If you don't belive in God then again it does not matter there is no God

Now since the greatest maximum pain is if there is God and you do not believe in Him (hell for eternity), whilst the greatest pleasure is if there is God and you believe in Him (heaven for eternity)...

Thus the most logical choice is to believe in God

chesslover
15-01-2004, 10:53 PM
How many times has life evolved on earth, once, twice, a billion times? Is it still evolving spontaneously?

We have no idea how many times life has evolved on earth. We do know that there's very strong evidence of universal descent for all currently known and living organisms.

Perhaps another way of looking at the question is to say "are we unique or are there other beings out there that think they're alone?"

Indeed. I wonder what their bulletin-boards are like.

1. Any other intelligence that is out there will not have PCs or Windows or yahoo or anything like that. It is funny that almost all sci-fi have aliens that are humanoids in features and have human emotions :) In the star trek and star wars worlds, most aliens had human chracteristics - as did the Dr Who, Battlestar Galactica, Blakes 7 worlds

2. Given that 75% of the earth is water, and that we have not gone to the depth of our earth, there are some conspiracy theories that state that there are intelligent civilisations on earth, that exsist there unknown to us :rolleyes:

3. Did the dinosaurs have an intelligent civilisation? would they have developed one, if the meteor did not hit?

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 10:53 PM
eternal life

This is interesting, how christians want to "live" forever.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, living or rebirth is a bad thing. Because when you live, you desire and when you desire, you suffer.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 10:55 PM
eternal life

This is interesting, how christians want to "live" forever.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, living or rebirth is a bad thing. Because when you live, you desire and when you desire, you suffer.

fine, why not just kill yourself now if you think that all that is going to happen in your life is "desire" or "suffer"

Have teh courage of your conviction ;)

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 10:59 PM
using logic, ;

1. Either there is God or there is no God

2. If there is God, and you do what HE states you will go to heaven for eternity. If you do not do what HE states you will go to hell for eternity

Thus if you believe in God and do what is stated you will be in heaven for eternity

If you do not believe in God, or do what God tells you to do, you will be in hell for eternity

3. If there is no God, then it does not matter as there is no eternity of hell or heaven

If you believe in God, then it does not matter that there is no God

If you don't belive in God then again it does not matter there is no God

Now since the greatest maximum pain is if there is God and you do not believe in Him (hell for eternity), whilst the greatest pleasure is if there is God and you believe in Him (heaven for eternity)...

Thus the most logical choice is to believe in God

What is your logic for stating God is "HE".

What is your logic for using terms such as heaven or hell. Why not re-incarnation or simply we will just die and lay in the ground forever, maybe there is no "soul".

Your use of heaven and hell is highly flawed.

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:01 PM
eternal life

This is interesting, how christians want to "live" forever.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, living or rebirth is a bad thing. Because when you live, you desire and when you desire, you suffer.

fine, why not just kill yourself now if you think that all that is going to happen in your life is "desire" or "suffer"

Have teh courage of your conviction ;)

How to overcome desire? How to overcome fear... etc, is the main aim of life for these two religions.

Your reasoning in religion is highly biased.

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:04 PM
or even that God has a gender at all.

Interesting how chesslover, and many people think God is a male. Have they seen god to know that? What if god is a force of another dimension? So you give gender properties to forces? Is Fire male or female? How about Light?

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:08 PM
eternal life

This is interesting, how christians want to "live" forever.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, living or rebirth is a bad thing. Because when you live, you desire and when you desire, you suffer.

fine, why not just kill yourself now if you think that all that is going to happen in your life is "desire" or "suffer"

Have teh courage of your conviction ;)

How to overcome desire? How to overcome fear... etc, is the main aim of life for these two religions.

Your reasoning in religion is highly biased.

well if you are a hindu or buddhist, I do not blame you for your simplistic religious views

For your info, hinduism and buddhism are not really religions like christianity, but are rather philiosophies...like plato, aristotle etc

Even though I think that Islam is the greatest threat to us christians, because of their fanatic (yet flawed) belief that theirs is the only true religion, and their uncompromising lack of understanding of christianity or their refusal to open their hearts to Jesus, at least they believe in one God, and think that if they do what HE states they will go to heaven (not knowing that it is only through Jesus that you will go to heaven and have eternal life) - and do not worship idols like hindus

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 11:10 PM
using logic,

We'll see about that ... :P


1. Either there is God or there is no God

Or there could be more than one ...


2. If there is God, and you do what HE states you will go to heaven for eternity. If you do not do what HE states you will go to hell for eternity

How is this logical? Just because you assume there is God, what makes you think there is an afterlife at all - let alone afterlives called "Heaven" and "Hell". Even assuming there is a God who does sent people to these afterlives, then how do you know that God cares whether you follow Its instructions or not? Even assuming God cares whether you follow Hir assumptions, what makes you think you can know them? So many assumptions ...

These things all only follow if we are assuming that any God that exists must be the Christian God. So, moving along now ...


3. If there is no God, then it does not matter as there is no eternity of hell or heaven

If you believe in God, then it does not matter that there is no God

If you don't belive in God then again it does not matter there is no God

Now since the greatest maximum pain is if there is God and you do not believe in Him (hell for eternity), whilst the greatest pleasure is if there is God and you believe in Him (heaven for eternity)...

Thus the most logical choice is to believe in God

You are rehashing Pascal's Wager, one of the ten most ridiculous and frequently discredited arguments in the entire history of philosophy.

Something you have overlooked - what happens if there is a God (defining God here as simply an all-powerful Creator), but that God is one who is not the Christian God? What if that God is one who sends followers of the Christian God to hell, and all the "sinners" to heaven?

And in any case, why should the consequences of what you believe affect your actual belief? It might be that I would be better off believing something that I know to be false, but that doesn't mean that I will actually believe it, because my beliefs are things that I think are true, not things that I it would be nice to think were true.

Do you really think I haven't seen this stuff before?

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:11 PM
After all, maybe "God" theory was used in ancient times where there was no law, to keep potential criminals at bay, or even to spawn a new way of life.

Kevin Bonham
15-01-2004, 11:17 PM
For your info, hinduism and buddhism are not really religions like christianity, but are rather philiosophies...like plato, aristotle etc

Why? Does something have to have a God to be a religion on your definition? At least you're saying that atheism is not a religion, so I hope to see you on my side of the fence the next time Goughfather (nee Machiavelli) tries to pretend that it is. 8)

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:19 PM
eternal life

This is interesting, how christians want to "live" forever.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, living or rebirth is a bad thing. Because when you live, you desire and when you desire, you suffer.

fine, why not just kill yourself now if you think that all that is going to happen in your life is "desire" or "suffer"

Have teh courage of your conviction ;)

How to overcome desire? How to overcome fear... etc, is the main aim of life for these two religions.

Your reasoning in religion is highly biased.

well if you are a hindu or buddhist, I do not blame you for your simplistic religious views

For your info, hinduism and buddhism are not really religions like christianity, but are rather philiosophies...like plato, aristotle etc

Even though I think that Islam is the greatest threat to us christians, because of their fanatic (yet flawed) belief that theirs is the only true religion, and their uncompromising lack of understanding of christianity or their refusal to open their hearts to Jesus, at least they believe in one God, and think that if they do what HE states they will go to heaven (not knowing that it is only through Jesus that you will go to heaven and have eternal life) - and do not worship idols like hindus

You can NOT assume things when you are discussing religion.

Every religion is flawed, mostly due to politics and money.

Hinduism is a religion, and there are MANY philosophies involved.

Hmm, you call me simplistic, yet this is your view:

God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell, Eternal Life.

No other possibilites? hmm?

No religion is a threat to anyone or anything, its the people behind it that make it look this way.

Again your post is flawed, in that you are assuming anything you want to assume.

Cat
15-01-2004, 11:25 PM
We have no idea how many times life has evolved on earth. We do know that there's very strong evidence of universal descent for all currently known and living organisms. Also there's nothing in the fossil record that contradicts universal descent for known fossil organisms.


I guess it depends what you call life, a self replicating chemical structure capable of mutation? I would say billions of these simple chemical structure have probably appeared at various times and various places independently. Hasn't there been reports of such structures around volcanic vents deep in the ocean?

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:29 PM
I think research into different dimensions would be better than trying to find ET life.

Cat
15-01-2004, 11:33 PM
Every belief is flawed, there is no absolute truth, certainly none that we can ever know. Be content with your own belief and respect the right of others to theirs.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:33 PM
Do you really think I haven't seen this stuff before?

Honestly. I never heard of Pascal's wager till your post. I then looked it up on google, and I think it makes a lot of sense - your cynicism and arguements not withstanding

One of the websites stated that Pascal's Wager can be presented as
"If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything."

or

"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "

It amounts to hedging your bets.

The worst case for the theist is no afterlife, the worst case for the atheist is an eternity in Hell.

[/b]

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:36 PM
anyway let us all have religious truce in this thread, and concentrate on the intelligent life on this universe :idea:

If need be let us create a religious thread, to continue on with the inevitable religious BB war that flare up occasionally :P

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:37 PM
Every belief is flawed, there is no absolute truth, certainly none that we can ever know. Be content with your own belief and respect the right of others to theirs.

Exactly.

chesslover does not understand this, obviously.

chesslover, you keep referring to Hell and Heaven and blah blah blah. If you cannot prove, then you should not preach.

All you are trying to do is convince us that there is God and Afterlife, and your reasoning in explaining this to us is just wrong.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:38 PM
I think research into different dimensions would be better than trying to find ET life.

but are there any parrallel dimensions? what prrof is there for this concept?

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:40 PM
I think research into different dimensions would be better than trying to find ET life.

but are there any parrallel dimensions? what prrof is there for this concept?

You have a doctor, well as many doctors as you want. And you have several bodies, with fully functional and healthy parts. Can they make a dead person live again? Till this day, its impossible, and therefore proves there is a force in a living object that is not materialistic.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:42 PM
I think research into different dimensions would be better than trying to find ET life.

but are there any parrallel dimensions? what prrof is there for this concept?

You have a doctor, well as many doctors as you want. And you have several bodies, with fully functional and healthy parts. Can they make a dead person live again? Till this day, its impossible, and therefore proves there is a force in a living object that is not materialistic.

what are you talking about?I do nto undertsand what you are saying :?

what has dead people not living got to do with parrallel universes and dimensions ?

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:44 PM
The force that exists in a living body is not in material. It is not 1D, 2D, 3D or even 4D. Its something that is not a MATERIAL. Therefore it must be in another dimension.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:49 PM
The force that exists in a living body is not in material. It is not 1D, 2D, 3D or even 4D. Its something that is not a MATERIAL. Therefore it must be in another dimension.

aaah I understand

I knwo we declared religious truce in this thread, but that could simply be the soul going to heaven/ hell?

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:51 PM
Then that soul would be in another dimension. And what I said originally is that research into another dimension such as this, rather than looking for ET life, would be much more worthwhile.

'We' did not declare truce, 'you' decided to declare it yourself.

Religion and Dimensions are very closely linked.

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:52 PM
If there was intelligence life out there, it could be;

1. In this planet ie Deep sea, earth crust etc

2. In the universe

3. In another dimension - a parallel universe or universes - that exist in an anotherplane to our reality

chesslover
15-01-2004, 11:56 PM
I remember once reading a quantum theory book, that was written for the mass market, and it stated that there are an infinity of parallel universes - with each universe having a variation of our current reality

example - in one universe Kevin would be the BB admin (like here), another he would be a user, another a dictator, another a priest, another a heretic etc etc.

Anything that we can imagine is true in one of the infinite number of parrallel universes or dimensions that exist

skip to my lou
15-01-2004, 11:58 PM
1. I do not think so. No 'intelligent' life anyway. Probably single cell organisms, if there are any organisms there at all.

2. What a call. Thats about the most .. err nevermind.

3. Another dimension does not have to be parallel universe, which it most probably is not. Its movies that propogate this unrealistic view of 'multiverse'.

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 12:01 AM
I remember once reading a quantum theory book, that was written for the mass market, and it stated that there are an infinity of parallel universes - with each universe having a variation of our current reality

example - in one universe Kevin would be the BB admin (like here), another he would be a user, another a dictator, another a priest, another a heretic etc etc.

Anything that we can imagine is true in one of the infinite number of parrallel universes or dimensions that exist

I dont think so. Multiverse sounds too unrealistic. It could be true, though not probable.

No Object is infinite.

chesslover
16-01-2004, 12:04 AM
1. I do not think so. No 'intelligent' life anyway. Probably single cell organisms, if there are any organisms there at all.

2. What a call. Thats about the most .. err nevermind.

3. Another dimension does not have to be parallel universe, which it most probably is not. Its movies that propogate this unrealistic view of 'multiverse'.

1. For what it is worth, I agree. Probably simple organisms

2. What - you do not think that there is other inteligent life in the universe?I am undecided

3. parallel universe is not just one parallel universe, but an infinite number of parallel universes, with an infinite number of premutations - so intelligenct life is assured in one of these parallel universes

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 12:06 AM
2. I never said that, its a bit open statement though. Universe is the only place where anything can exist. So far as we know anyway.

3. So in these parallel dimensions, do you go to hell in any of them?

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2004, 12:07 AM
No Object is infinite.
Prove it.

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 12:11 AM
That is my belief.

Can you prove anything is infinite in our real world? On earth alone, to take a small sample from the universe?

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 12:13 AM
You can look at it two ways:

We dont know the boundaries of the universe, therefore it is infinite. or:

So far, the earth, our home, is not an infinite resource, therefore there must be a limit somewhere, as there have been limits to everything on earth.

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2004, 12:14 AM
I remember once reading a quantum theory book, that was written for the mass market, and it stated that there are an infinity of parallel universes - with each universe having a variation of our current reality

This is possible, but by no means necessary. I am comfortable both with the idea of a single universe and the idea of multiple "universes".

For a while there was a trendy idea that the universe "split" under certain circumstances (those involving quantum physics or possibly time travel). I don't know enough physics to know how such ideas are going or even if they were ever viable at all, but I can say that even if this was so only some of the alternate universes would be close variations of ours, some might even be identical in all significant respects while others were utterly different. The idea that in every universe there has to be a Matthew Sweeney swearing on bulletin boards is best left to Michael Moorcock novels IMHO. :P

Some of the interest in multiple universes came from attempts to prove that the single universe we lived in was so unlikely that it must have been created. As far as I know, all the arguments for this have fallen over (both philosophically and scientifically) so it's really no big deal. Again, discussion about the nature of "existence" is inevitable in this sort of a debate - if a universe is there but we can't detect it or infer it, in what sense can it be said to be real?

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 12:16 AM
Good point kevin, likewise, bill, if you can not see the boundaries of the universe, there is no point in assuming there aren't any at all.

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2004, 12:27 AM
I then looked it up on google, and I think it makes a lot of sense - your cynicism and arguements not withstanding

Then you should be able to refute all my arguments, or otherwise it should not make sense. And anyway, I find a belief system that says "toe the line or go to Hell" far more cynical than anything I could possibly come up with.


One of the websites stated that Pascal's Wager can be presented as "If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything."

Another faulty assumption of this (as well as the ones that I have already given) - just believing that the Christian God exists doesn't get you into Heaven. You also have to follow the appropriate rules - and given that there are so many sects the chance of doing so correctly is negligible.


"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "

Again this depends on assuming it's the Christian God you're dealing with.


It amounts to hedging your bets.

Exactly, except that it doesn't work. And as a former writer for my former student magazine once put it (approximately) "If I was an omnipotent deity and I was confronted by an honest atheist who had simply failed to find evidence of my existence, and a shallow bet-hedger who hadn't found any real evidence either, but had maintained a belief in me just to get into Heaven, I know which one I'd ****** well burn."


The worst case for the theist is no afterlife, the worst case for the atheist is an eternity in Hell.

No, the worst case for the theist is to be sent to Hell by a God who doesn't appreciate the way in which they are worshipped, whereas the worst case for the atheist is to be sent to Hell for not worshipping at all. Similarly the best case for both is the same, except that the atheist can have more fun (or more of whatever else they want) along the way!

Kevin Bonham
16-01-2004, 12:35 AM
You have a doctor, well as many doctors as you want. And you have several bodies, with fully functional and healthy parts. Can they make a dead person live again? Till this day, its impossible, and therefore proves there is a force in a living object that is not materialistic.

Where's David when we need him? :D

I'd assume that if you (somehow) could store the bodies so that no decay occurs immediately after "death", and if you could fix whatever the problem was that had caused the patient to "die", then in theory you could still get them going again even a long time later. More an extremely difficult technical problem than a theoretical one, correct David?

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 12:45 AM
Though what causes death?

I do not think death is a materialistic problem. If it was, then we could make dead people live again? Since we can transplant many complicated organs, including the most important one, the heart. Though something tells the body it is time to stop functioning. If it was materialistic problem, then the body could keep living forever, and would never "die".

It is too complicated to come to a definite conclusion at this time. I reckon a few more centuries or maybe more are required to get a slight understanding of what is actually going on inside ourselves.

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 12:46 AM
And maybe research into our human bodies is more worthwhile than trying to uncover other dimensions. :)

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 07:40 AM
Though what causes death?

I do not think death is a materialistic problem. If it was, then we could make dead people live again? Since we can transplant many complicated organs, including the most important one, the heart. Though something tells the body it is time to stop functioning. If it was materialistic problem, then the body could keep living forever, and would never "die".

It is too complicated to come to a definite conclusion at this time. I reckon a few more centuries or maybe more are required to get a slight understanding of what is actually going on inside ourselves.

Actualy the heart is a muscle, not an organ. It is also not the seat of the intellect as the ancients once thought - that is the brain.

As yet, no one is even close to performing brain transplants. However, some stem cell research is looking at treating degenerative disorders of the CNS.

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 07:45 AM
I remember once reading a quantum theory book, that was written for the mass market, and it stated that there are an infinity of parallel universes - with each universe having a variation of our current reality

example - in one universe Kevin would be the BB admin (like here), another he would be a user, another a dictator, another a priest, another a heretic etc etc.

Anything that we can imagine is true in one of the infinite number of parrallel universes or dimensions that exist

The multiverse is one way of explaining the behaviour of particles at the sub-atomic level. It should not be considered the only possible explaination, at present it is just a hypothesis.

arosar
16-01-2004, 09:20 AM
I wasn't gonna post anything else because I'm tired of this atheist/religionist debate. I reckon we'll all just be about stuck with it for the rest of our BB lives.

Problem is CL, here you go again with this garbage about Islam.



Even though I think that Islam is the greatest threat to us christians, because of their fanatic (yet flawed) belief that theirs is the only true religion...

And so do Christians.


. . . and their uncompromising lack of understanding of christianity . . .

And how much do you understand of Islam and muslims? None - evidently!


. . . or their refusal to open their hearts to Jesus . . .

In fact, they recognise him - as a prophet, a chosen man. The crucial difference is that for muslims, Christ is no God.


. . . and do not worship idols like hindus

How then do you characterise christian saints?

AR

skip to my lou
16-01-2004, 09:20 AM
Though what causes death?

I do not think death is a materialistic problem. If it was, then we could make dead people live again? Since we can transplant many complicated organs, including the most important one, the heart. Though something tells the body it is time to stop functioning. If it was materialistic problem, then the body could keep living forever, and would never "die".

It is too complicated to come to a definite conclusion at this time. I reckon a few more centuries or maybe more are required to get a slight understanding of what is actually going on inside ourselves.

Actualy the heart is a muscle, not an organ. It is also not the seat of the intellect as the ancients once thought - that is the brain.

As yet, no one is even close to performing brain transplants. However, some stem cell research is looking at treating degenerative disorders of the CNS.

Actually its a muscular organ. So can you live without a brain? What about people that go braindead?

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 10:02 AM
I do not think death is a materialistic problem. If it was, then we could make dead people live again? Since we can transplant many complicated organs, including the most important one, the heart. Though something tells the body it is time to stop functioning. If it was materialistic problem, then the body could keep living forever, and would never "die".

We can make dead people live again, via cardio-defribrulation. However, once a person's brain has been starved of oxygen for more than a few minutes, irreparable physical damage is done and this is what prevents resuscitation.

Aging is caused by very complex factors. In theory they could all be overcome, but I think that is a long way off. People were never meant to last for ever (unlike the christian belief that we were designed to last forever and aging and desease is some that has occurred since the fall of man).

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 10:10 AM
And maybe research into our human bodies is more worthwhile than trying to uncover other dimensions. :)

All scientific research is worthwhile. Multidimensional investigation tends to be more about developing mathemtical models to explain quantum behaviour than the movie stereotype of a mad scientist trying to uncover other (actually but hitherto unknown) dimensions.

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 10:19 AM
Actually its a muscular organ. So can you live without a brain? What about people that go braindead?

Any part of the body could be described as an organ. My point is the heart is more like the gluteus maximus than it is like a liver, kidney or brain.

People who are braindead have no higher mental function, however the CNS is still functional so the responses controlling breathing, heartbeat, etc are still being performed by the CNS.

Cat
16-01-2004, 03:58 PM
Where's David when we need him?

I'd assume that if you (somehow) could store the bodies so that no decay occurs immediately after "death", and if you could fix whatever the problem was that had caused the patient to "die", then in theory you could still get them going again even a long time later. More an extremely difficult technical problem than a theoretical one, correct David?


We can make dead people live again, via cardio-defribrulation. However, once a person's brain has been starved of oxygen for more than a few minutes, irreparable physical damage is done and this is what prevents resuscitation.



Tara!

As Barry suggested, today medically we define death as 'brain death', viz. when there is no longer any evidence of higher cortical brain function occuring. In most cases this is bleeding damn obvious, but in some cases such as a person with a major head injury on a ventilator, not so. This becomes important for 2 reasons;
1. Considering when to withdraw 'life support' (this is a term used more in the media than in the medical arena).
2. For purpose of organ donation, when the organs such as kidney or heart, may be suitable for transplant.

In these situations, a very strict set of criterion (such as pinching the person very,very hard and seeing if it hurts) are used to determine brain death.

The diagnosis is relatively easy to determine, and the point of the diagnoses is that it indicates the patient has suffered irreparable damage to the higher centres in the brain and will never be able to survive as an autonomous individual (away from the ventilator). Once disconnected, respiration fails and the heart ceases to beat very quickly.

So by this definition, once a person is dead, they're always dead. Preserving the body 'immediately after death' is to no avail, because the brain will never be able to command the vital organs, it's a dead parrot. A body could theoretically be preserved before death to await future medical advances, but I would refer you to Dennis Potter's play Cold Lazarus to consider the consequences. One Brittney Spears is enough in any universe.

We cannot make dead people live again (you've been watching too many zombie films BJC) through cardio-defibrillation. We can only resuscitate living people who have stopped breathing or suffered cardiac arrest, before they become 'brain dead' - until now :!: :!: :!: :!: :^o

I have invented 'Dave's live-again potion'. If taken on the point of, or within 2 weeks of your demise, then you will indeed live again :P

For today only at a very special price of $100 you can live again with 'Dave's live again potion'. If you contact me within 1hr to purchase 'Dave's live again potion' you will recieve an extra one free, plus 14 nights at the deluxe suite in the Heaven Regency for use after you've run out of 'Dave's live again potion.'

Now this product is guaranteed and if life is not restored within 48hrs of taking this product you may apply for a personal refund, plus 2 weeks at the Heaven Regency as compensation.

NB Boy Bands may not apply

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 04:21 PM
We cannot make dead people live again (you've been watching too many zombie films BJC) through cardio-defibrillation. We can only resuscitate living people who have stopped breathing or suffered cardiac arrest, before they become 'brain dead' - until now :!: :!: :!: :!: :^o

Yes I was aware of my inaccurate definition of the word "dead" when I made the comment re cardio-defibrillation. I was just point out you can get a stopped heart going again, but once the brain is gone, your gone.

I was wondering about the other stuff I said when I was being more serious. I was worried you would be making mince meat out of me (not literally, of course).

Speaking of zombie films, have you seen Incredibly Strange Creatures Who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-up Zombies? Deathstalker and the Warriors from Hell has got to be up there as an all time favourite too, although the zombies had a small part in that one. :)

Cat
16-01-2004, 04:39 PM
I take it you're not puchasing the potion, then?

No I don't think I've seen those films, were they at Cannes?

Biologically the human is preprogramed to live to 40, after that our regulation systems begin to break down, as there has been no evolutionary pressure to maintain these into later life.

The main victim is the cardiovasular system, leading to cerebro-vascular-disease and cardio-vascular disease. This accounts for about 75% of deaths in the western world. Preserving the state of your arteries is the key to longevity and retaining your wits.

antichrist
16-01-2004, 05:15 PM
CL
Your answer should have been that Jesus/God is other intelligent life in the universe

Cat
16-01-2004, 05:38 PM
While we're discussing space travel and health, it might be worth considering the American plans for invading Mars.

The gamma radiation dose recieved by an astronaut travelling to Mars approaches the LD50 (i.e. a dose lethal to 50% of individual) in a conventional space capsule.

These are the immediate effects, even before considering the time spent on the planet, the return journey and the long-term radiation effects.

I suspect these ravings from GWB are more to do with public perception than anything else

Bill Gletsos
16-01-2004, 05:49 PM
We cannot make dead people live again (you've been watching too many zombie films BJC) through cardio-defibrillation. We can only resuscitate living people who have stopped breathing or suffered cardiac arrest, before they become 'brain dead' - until now :!: :!: :!: :!: :^o
Actually I disagree. ;)
It is blatantly obvious that over the past 10-11 months there has been numerous "brain dead" people posting on the ACF BB. :D :D :D

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 06:01 PM
I take it you're not puchasing the potion, then?

No sale. ;)


No I don't think I've seen those films, were they at Cannes?

Don;t think so, they date back to the 60's B-grade horror genre. They weren't even good B-grade films.


Biologically the human is preprogramed to live to 40, after that our regulation systems begin to break down, as there has been no evolutionary pressure to maintain these into later life.

Nor will there be until people continue bearing children beyond 40 and/or we introduce a selective breeding program a la the Lazarus Project in Time Enough for Love.


The main victim is the cardiovasular system, leading to cerebro-vascular-disease and cardio-vascular disease. This accounts for about 75% of deaths in the western world. Preserving the state of your arteries is the key to longevity and retaining your wits.

I hope that is related to cholesterol because that is the area I always do really well in physical exams.

Cat
16-01-2004, 06:39 PM
Cholesterol is a major factor. Recently articles have been published in the British Medical and the New England Journal of Medicine suggesting the 90% of all cardiovascular deaths (and presumably disease) are related to the know modifiable risk factors. Obviously, you can't do much about who your parents are. These risk factors are;

1. smoking.
2. lack of exercise.
3. hypertension (high blood pressure).
4. diabetes.
5. obesity.
6. cholesterol.
7. homo-cysteine levels.

chesslover
16-01-2004, 09:43 PM
For a while there was a trendy idea that the universe "split" under certain circumstances (those involving quantum physics or possibly time travel). I don't know enough physics to know how such ideas are going or even if they were ever viable at all, but I can say that even if this was so only some of the alternate universes would be close variations of ours, some might even be identical in all significant respects while others were utterly different. The idea that in every universe there has to be a Matthew Sweeney swearing on bulletin boards is best left to Michael Moorcock novels IMHO. :P

Again, discussion about the nature of "existence" is inevitable in this sort of a debate - if a universe is there but we can't detect it or infer it, in what sense can it be said to be real?

I have actually read soem of these books about splitting. It seems that every time there is a cariety of options the universe "splits" into different dimensions and parallel earths - so that there is an infinite number of universes being created every minute

Whilst I take your point about even if true (which I do not think it is) is this real, tv series like the sliders are based on this permise. Who knows, it is entirely possible that the parallel worlds will colide, and we may cross over into another dimension :idea:

chesslover
16-01-2004, 09:48 PM
It is blatantly obvious that over the past 10-11 months there has been numerous "brain dead" people posting on the ACF BB. :D :D :D

Very apt and true :D :D

The dead do not come alive just during election times :D

Rincewind
16-01-2004, 10:10 PM
1. smoking.
2. lack of exercise.
3. hypertension (high blood pressure).
4. diabetes.
5. obesity.
6. cholesterol.
7. homo-cysteine levels.

1. Tick
2. Chess is a sport isn't it :smiles weakly:
3. Blood pressure is OK.
4. Still OK on this front
5. Working on it
6. Tick
7. I've never so much as kissed a man!

So I guess I'm OK. A bit if regular exercise and few less chocolate covered donuts and I should live to 100. ;)

Cat
16-01-2004, 11:28 PM
Sorry BJC, there was something I left off the list

8. Being female.

I'm afraid if you want to live to 100 and know about it, you've probably missed out at first base. It's possible for a bloke to make 100 with his wits intact, but you'll need to put in lots of effort and need quite a bit of luck. Still in Australia we enjoy one of the highest life expectancy in the world. By the way, castration doesn't work, it'll probably shorten your life.

Cat
16-01-2004, 11:37 PM
Bill Gletsos wrote:

It is blatantly obvious that over the past 10-11 months there has been numerous "brain dead" people posting on the ACF BB.




[/quote]Very apt and true[quote]

Maybe he was talking about you CL?

Kevin Bonham
17-01-2004, 12:47 AM
NB Boy Bands may not apply[/i]

That whole post was well written and most entertaining. Well done.

Rincewind
17-01-2004, 01:20 AM
Sorry BJC, there was something I left off the list

8. Being female.

I'm afraid if you want to live to 100 and know about it, you've probably missed out at first base. It's possible for a bloke to make 100 with his wits intact, but you'll need to put in lots of effort and need quite a bit of luck. Still in Australia we enjoy one of the highest life expectancy in the world. By the way, castration doesn't work, it'll probably shorten your life.

I wish I read to the end of this email before taking drastic action. ;)

Thanks for the tip.

Cat
17-01-2004, 10:15 AM
Thanks KB


I wish I read to the end of this email before taking drastic action.


I was toying with the idea of leaving that bit 'til my next post, but didn't like the idea of having other people blood & bcks on my hands.

chesslover
17-01-2004, 05:12 PM
assuming that intelligent life exists in this universe (and not in another dimension) should we attampt to communicate with it?

In the movie "contact", a lot of people did not want Jodie Foster to buiuld the space transporter, as they thought that the aliens will try to destroy earth to remove all possible future competition. And given our previous history of contact with inferior civilisations, it seems that avoiding contact may be a prudent idea.

On the other hand, the aliens may give us secret that will trasnform the earth - new sourcesof energy, nano technology, immortality etc.

PHAT
27-01-2004, 11:24 AM
1. smoking.
2. lack of exercise.
3. hypertension (high blood pressure).
4. diabetes.
5. obesity.
6. cholesterol.
7. homo-cysteine levels.


There is a #8 and rising. Lack of paracites. Maybe we need a dose of hookwork to keep our unemployed immune systems from turning on us - afterall, the immune response is complicit with heart disease.