PDA

View Full Version : Love?



Alan Shore
05-06-2005, 09:46 PM
What are your thoughts? (This thread can be used for all romance/relationship questions too I suppose.. (if chess players even know what love is, haha)).

I've been in all three of the above situations over the past couple of years.. all so different and kind of difficult to say which was best. The first was the best emotionally, the second was the best physically and the last was the best productively. Perhaps people can also share some experiences.

Mischa
05-06-2005, 09:55 PM
I think you might have to define what you mean by love.
In love, in lust, or loving as in caring deeply.
And yes they are all separate but can be all felt for the one person

eclectic
05-06-2005, 09:56 PM
no poll option for both sides loving equally and mutually?

belthasar,

come here

:buttkick:

eclectic

Alan Shore
05-06-2005, 10:22 PM
I think you might have to define what you mean by love.
In love, in lust, or loving as in caring deeply.
And yes they are all separate but can be all felt for the one person

Love, not just lust or caring (most people would have felt both of those without really being 'in love') and however you subjectively view it in your mind.


no poll option for both sides loving equally and mutually?

belthasar,

come here

:buttkick:

eclectic

Well obviously.. cos everyone would just pick that option, wouldn't they? :wall:

Kevin Bonham
05-06-2005, 10:46 PM
My current view is that it is better to be totally single than to waste time in one-way relationships. Save the emotional energy and the efforts involved for something that might actually work.

The first situation - used to fall into this trap on an irregular basis when much younger but I now see no purpose in wasting that much emotion on people who aren't going to reciprocate. Usually I find that if somebody isn't interested, a close look at why they're not interested reveals things about them that makes too strong a positive emotion towards them pointless anyway.

eclectic
05-06-2005, 10:51 PM
My current view is that it is better to be totally single than to waste time in one-way relationships. Save the emotional energy and the efforts involved for something that might actually work.

The first situation - used to fall into this trap on an irregular basis when much younger but I now see no purpose in wasting that much emotion on people who aren't going to reciprocate. Usually I find that if somebody isn't interested, a close look at why they're not interested reveals things about them that makes too strong a positive emotion towards them pointless anyway.

well said !!!!

eclectic

Mischa
05-06-2005, 10:55 PM
I have been in situations that are variations of the above as well and none of them are desirable postions to be in.
Unrequited love tho...can hurt the most.

firegoat7
05-06-2005, 11:22 PM
Got to admit not a fan of this poll but I voted anyway.

I voted "To love someone but them not love you in return"

Now at first I though yeah Im pretty twisted, but then I 'felt' i could justify it within a certain context.

Obviously love involves a relationship with another human being, that love ought to be unconditional, IMO. You don't choose who you love it just happens. Now before you all get sick and throw up I will make my point.

Almost any parent will say they loved their romantic other at some point.
But I think you would find few parents who said I love my romantic other half more then our offspring.
I guess that is the thing about parenthood that is just awesome, you actually really love this little creature who at least in the first 3 months does nothing much but vomit, eat and keep you awake.
Its not as if you want the love back (was that a smile or wind), you just love them, thats the way I feel anyway..its an absolutely fantastic feeling. Its way more intense then romance.

Cheer Fg7

Bereaved
05-06-2005, 11:32 PM
The notion of Love( the survey) seems to be a strange and vaguely amorphous approach to the notion of the human's need to be a happy or desired person in whatever capacity.

Consider: the world that we now live in has an extreme fascination in the acquisition of money and the acquisition of the ways to make more money. When such things as these are becoming an ever increasing focus for people, it is little surprise that the problems being experienced by the respondants to this point are in the form that they are.

In addition it is quite clear, though unstated, that the love in reference is of the interpersonal relationship level between two given parties, who are not blood related. This leaves aside the issue of the unrequited love that a child may feel for a parent who does not show it or vice versa.

A small child approaches another small child in the playground with a very important question to ask: Will you play with me? Will you be my friend? Not what do you do for a living? or Where do you live? nor What kind of car do you drive?. My point is that in a subjective universe, which we all live in by the necessity of being in one body the whole time, the amount of criteria under which we choose to assess/judge others leads almost invariably to us becoming increasingly unlikely to feel free enough to induce within ourselves and others a feeling of love.

We should perhaps not be considering what type of faulty relationship we would like to avoid, or find least objectionable, but rather how can we stop seeing this as a thing to be assessed rather than experienced.

I would take this to the broader level and suggest that rather than limiting who we love, we should love everybody!!

Why would one want to put up such a large amount of bricks around oneself to exclude others when in truth, we should all be being friends?

All that is required is a mindset where we try and do no action towards another person that we would not like ourselves. As far as the options on the survey as written, then undoubtedly to love and not have the love returned is surely the most painful and should be accepted within oneself as occuring, and an attempt made to move along to where the love is reciprocated.

The second option sounds downright nasty if the connotation is that you in fact have no emotional attachment to the person, and even given that you do, it would seem that the person will continue to listen with an eavesdropping heart in the hope to hear those three words, which would be unfair unless you made it painfully clear that this was never going to happen, in which case I imagine that it wouldn't continue much past that point.

Finally we are left with the option of accepting neither A or B, which ultimately seems wise, as how on earth do we expect that the wonderful can happen for us if we are already otherwise engaged in a not very hopeful situation whichever way you look at it.

Finally, it is a little known fact ( or it seems to me at times ) that the actions speak louder than the words, and if one lived a life where the blatentness of one's warmth of feeling towards one's fellow persons was self evident to all, then one should not be concerned about the abscence of a relationship, or the maintenance of a faulty one, as it is only when you show that you have the qualities deserving of love that you will be loved.

Codocil: I do not consider myself to be an expert on relationships, but I do believe myself to be an expert on love, as I am at all times aware of it in my world through the actions of my friends and family and community. As such I have no need to be anxious in this matter.

If one allows oneself to love today,
they will be loved tomorrow,

and finally,

There is so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
that it ill-behoves any of us,
to speak ill of the rest of us
--Alistair MacLellan

Probably a bit over the top, but there you go,

My best to you all, Macavity

PS All you need is love - Beatles

NB commenced before FG7's post, no criticism directed your way Sec

Duff McKagan
06-06-2005, 08:08 AM
All this talk talk talk talk about something which none of us are writers enought to express. Just look at the way people are trying to objectively rationalise their choice for/against a subjective irrational feeling, love.

The poll question can only be answered adiquitely by those of us who have experienced all three options.
1. I never want to be hurt like that again.
2. I never want to hurt someone like that again.
3. By elimination of theses two we are left with, dont get into a one way relationship.

Simple!!

Cheers :cool:

antichrist
06-06-2005, 08:20 AM
I love hating some people, and love them hating me as well.

I did a poll here before and the majority was against the existence of true love, so don't expect much.

Wonder if they believe in true hate?

Why did you have to be a heart-breaker...

Are you trying to put me out of business for setting up silly polls?

Kevin Bonham
06-06-2005, 08:54 PM
All this talk talk talk talk about something which none of us are writers enought to express.

Actually, you're not reader enough to know that. :P

I thought about being far more elaborate and writerly in my initial response but I decided that there were many more things I could say, but I did not want to say them here. I might have said some of them had this thread been in the Coffee Lounge.


Just look at the way people are trying to objectively rationalise their choice for/against a subjective irrational feeling, love.

I'm not trying to objectively rationalise anything. I'm saying that's the answer for me - of course it's a subjective response. Without necessarily agreeing with your claim that:


The poll question can only be answered adiquitely by those of us who have experienced all three options. ,

... I do think that it is easier for at least some people to pick option (3) when they've been through a fair amount emotionally and learnt from a few mistakes (if they decide they are such - some people would think options 1 and 2 were not mistakes at all). Others just can't pick 3 in practice because they cannot deal with being alone. However, to say that everyone's real-life responses to choices like this have to be "irrational" would be a cliche. I've become very reliable at thinking out situations I don't want to be in and avoiding them in advance. If I make mistakes, it's in novel situations - not irrational repeats of previous ??s.

WhiteElephant
08-06-2005, 01:30 AM
The human ideal is to love someone and be loved in return. All lesser states are equally bad.

antichrist
08-06-2005, 01:32 AM
The human ideal is to love someone and be loved in return. All lesser states are equally bad.

It can also be exactly the opposite, so there is no perfect answer, only relative answers.

Alan Shore
08-06-2005, 01:43 AM
The human ideal is to love someone and be loved in return. All lesser states are equally bad.

What's interesting is how diverse it can be.. there are many, many ways to love someone. And it's a near impossibility to have love without conflict. So depending on one's emotional makeup, it may not always be the case that your scenario is best, despite its quixotic ideals.

antichrist
08-06-2005, 01:46 AM
What's interesting is how diverse it can be.. there are many, many ways to love someone. And it's a near impossibility to have love without conflict. So depending on one's emotional makeup, it may not always be the case that your scenario is best, despite its quixotic ideals.

just as my love for you

WhiteElephant
08-06-2005, 01:50 AM
What's interesting is how diverse it can be.. there are many, many ways to love someone. And it's a near impossibility to have love without conflict. So depending on one's emotional makeup, it may not always be the case that your scenario is best, despite its quixotic ideals.

Ok, do you agree that this is the natural human ideal? (whatever individual form it takes)

If so, do we not always strive to achieve it?

I feel that if I make a choice between being single or the other options then I am settling and admitting that an ideal is unattainable, in which case why continue my existence?

antichrist
08-06-2005, 01:53 AM
Ok, do you agree that this is the natural human ideal? (whatever individual form it takes)

If so, do we not always strive to achieve it?

I feel that if I make a choice between being single or the other options then I am settling and admitting that an ideal is unattainable, in which case why continue my existence?

We have to procreate no matter what. Otherwise someone else with less whimsical(?) notions will do your share.

WhiteElephant
08-06-2005, 01:56 AM
We have to procreate no matter what. Otherwise someone else with less whimsical(?) notions will do your share.

Yes. So 'love' is biological not merely a human construct.

Alan Shore
08-06-2005, 01:57 AM
Ok, do you agree that this is the natural human ideal? (whatever individual form it takes)

If so, do we not always strive to achieve it?

No, I don't really. Not when you look at certain cultural differences.. polygny, polyandry.. there are a completely different set of cultural values at work, so I can't necessarily say it is a ubiquitous trait, albeit a desirable one, particularly being borne of this western monogamous culture.


I feel that if I make a choice between being single or the other options then I am settling and admitting that an ideal is unattainable, in which case why continue my existence?

Wow, now that's a big call, if I read that correctly. Is that truly your primary goal in life? I can think of more noble things to continue my existence for.

Alan Shore
08-06-2005, 02:00 AM
We have to procreate no matter what. Otherwise someone else with less whimsical(?) notions will do your share.

Love is not a necessary condition for procreation, yet it is a useful physiological addendum.

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:00 AM
Yes. So 'love' is biological not merely a human construct.

Love and sex for pleasure are there because human children preferably need both parents for about 11 years for the off-spring to have a decent chance of survival. Because humans are slower developers compared to many other species.

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:02 AM
Love is not a necessary condition for procreation, yet it is a useful physiological addendum.

I Warneyed you. If people who want love won't "jump in" well those who don't care about it certainly will.

WhiteElephant
08-06-2005, 02:06 AM
No, I don't really. Not when you look at certain cultural differences.. polygny, polyandry.. there are a completely different set of cultural values at work, so I can't necessarily say it is a ubiquitous trait, albeit a desirable one, particularly being borne of this western monogamous culture.

Hmmm you may be right (maybe I am just extrapolating my own beliefs to everybody else)...but don't all those examples still encompass the idea of loving and being loved, only in different forms?


Wow, now that's a big call, if I read that correctly. Is that truly your primary goal in life? I can think of more noble things to continue my existence for.

My primary goal is to achive maximum happiness and my definition of happiness is fluid. I suppose that for me, love is the most important factor in that definition - perhaps that is selfish? What things you would you consider more noble?.

Alan Shore
08-06-2005, 02:08 AM
I Warneyed you. If people who want love won't "jump in" well those who don't care about it certainly will.

That's an awesome quote! So very true..

firegoat7
08-06-2005, 02:11 AM
Ok, do you agree that this is the natural human ideal? (whatever individual form it takes)

If so, do we not always strive to achieve it?

I feel that if I make a choice between being single or the other options then I am settling and admitting that an ideal is unattainable, in which case why continue my existence?

Your disturbing me with this post WE. what do you mean by 'why continue my existence?

Cheers fg7

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:14 AM
When I look at the tradition arranged Lebo marriage (yes, those again!) and see people who don't have love to begin with, don't use dysfunctional behaviour, don't fall out of love so don't pack up, no deserted kids etc etc

and conversely

when I look at all the pain and sorrow in Western marriages it makes me wonder.

Alan Shore
08-06-2005, 02:14 AM
Hmmm you may be right (maybe I am just extrapolating my own beliefs to everybody else)...but don't all those examples still encompass the idea of loving and being loved, only in different forms?

In a way, but then love is beginning to depart from the conceptualisation you may have of it in your own mind. When one considers too the diversity of emotional responses themselves (i.e. psychopaths, sociopaths) you get a divergence in the value of love over another form of desire.


My primary goal is to achive maximum happiness and my definition of happiness is fluid. I suppose that for me, love is the most important factor in that definition - perhaps that is selfish? What things you would you consider more noble?

The good news is, love can be great as an inspiration and really drive you to achieve wonderful things. Yet, if you keep love as the most important factor in 'maximising happiness' you can fall into the trap of being selfish (in a way!). If you compare Casanova to Einstein, who has led the more worthwhile life? I tend to measure contributions to the social product (in terms of wisdom, knowledge and social betterment) a more noble pursuit than to love another (or select few) and tend not to prioritise those personal loves above and beyond all of humanity.

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:16 AM
Your disturbing me with this post WE. what do you mean by 'why continue my existence?

Cheers fg7

I posted for you earlier about your mate Ibrahim, did you find it? And what was that incident he was telling me about?

firegoat7
08-06-2005, 02:20 AM
. If you compare Casanova to Einstein, who has led the more worthwhile life? I tend to measure contributions to the social product (in terms of wisdom, knowledge and social betterment) a more noble pursuit than to love another (or select few) and tend not to prioritise those personal loves above and beyond all of humanity.
? Did einstein or casanova have any children...if not what would they know about love?

Cheers Fg7
P.S I gave you the tip, romantic love is like not even close to parenthood

WhiteElephant
08-06-2005, 02:22 AM
Your disturbing me with this post WE. what do you mean by 'why continue my existence?

Cheers fg7

I am not suicidal :) Everyone has to have a purpose without which life is meaningless. I can think of other ideal states to be in, love is one of them. For me it is an extremely important component of what makes me happy (ie I don't have to be in that state to be happy, but to realise that it exists and strive towards it).

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:25 AM
But the $5 questionis: what is more important love or suitability?

WhiteElephant
08-06-2005, 02:26 AM
The good news is, love can be great as an inspiration and really drive you to achieve wonderful things. Yet, if you keep love as the most important factor in 'maximising happiness' you can fall into the trap of being selfish (in a way!). If you compare Casanova to Einstein, who has led the more worthwhile life? I tend to measure contributions to the social product (in terms of wisdom, knowledge and social betterment) a more noble pursuit than to love another (or select few) and tend not to prioritise those personal loves above and beyond all of humanity.

Aaah you raise a fascinating topic, whether innovation and civilisation have caused an increase or decline in the general level of people's happiness. However I have to run an Interschool Comp in 6 hours so I will say goodnight and continue this next time.

W.E.

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:28 AM
And I don't think FG is going to answer me either

Alan Shore
08-06-2005, 02:28 AM
? Did einstein or casanova have any children...if not what would they know about love?

Cheers Fg7
P.S I gave you the tip, romantic love is like not even close to parenthood

FG7, are you thinking about biological 'Individual Fitness' as a contribution? Or are you just talking about how much you love your children?

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:31 AM
? Did einstein or casanova have any children...if not what would they know about love?

Cheers Fg7
P.S I gave you the tip, romantic love is like not even close to parenthood

Well then why do many parents leave their children for a new lover?

Kevin Bonham
08-06-2005, 02:36 AM
We have to procreate no matter what.

Rubbish.

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:42 AM
Rubbish.

The council pick up is on Mondays.

"We" meant in group context.

firegoat7
08-06-2005, 02:43 AM
Well then why do many parents leave their children for a new lover?

Who knows AC? Im sure they have their own rationality/irrationality for the decisions.

I think I can partly answer this question however.

We live in a consumer society, in which life is highly individualised. This individualisation often causes us to not notice that we are social beings...meaning that the most important things ought to be our relationships with others.

Instead we abstract the other, we treat them as objects. Now Im sure when parents have children there are some incredible moments of 'love' there. The problem is love is not all you need....you need to live...often quite difficult.

Cheers fg7

antichrist
08-06-2005, 02:56 AM
It could be as simple as one's temperament, a woman's mens. even, etc. as to why love dies or turned away from, nothing to do with the consumer society etc.

Now about your mate, can I trust him with my books???????????????????/

firegoat7
08-06-2005, 03:01 AM
FG7, are you thinking about biological 'Individual Fitness' as a contribution? Or are you just talking about how much you love your children?

I am being purely subjective. I was just not prepared for the intensity of the feeling. I figure a lot of people simply go along in life doing nothing much but living a simple existence, caring for others. Personally, I think that is pretty noble and has little to do with achievement.

Love has its negative sides. For example I can't stand to see my kids sick it causes me pain. Much worse then if I was sick myself.

I remember when my mum would worry when I would stayed out late...When I got home I would tell her not to be so stupid...but now I understand, it has an irrationality all of its own,
I didn't understand that her love for me was stronger then mine for hers.
How can you until you have children yourself, until you experience the intensity of that type of relationship?

Cheers Fg7

antichrist
08-06-2005, 03:05 AM
I am being purely subjective. I was just not prepared for the intensity of the feeling. I figure a lot of people simply go along in life doing nothing much but living a simple existence, caring for others. Personally, I think that is pretty noble and has little to do with achievement.

Love has its negative sides. For example I can't stand to see my kids sick it causes me pain. Much worse then if I was sick myself.

I remember when my mum would worry when I would stayed out late...When I got home I would tell her not to be so stupid...but now I understand, it has an irrationality all of its own,
I didn't understand that her love for me was stronger then mine for hers.
How can you until you have children yourself, until you experience the intensity of that type of relationship?

Cheers Fg7

with all this motherly love you remind me of (again)

You only have one mother
you won't miss her till she has gone
You will never find another with a love
for you so strong...

firegoat7
08-06-2005, 03:07 AM
It could be as simple as one's temperament, a woman's mens. even, etc. as to why love dies or turned away from, nothing to do with the consumer society etc.

Maybe, but Im inclined to believe that your a product of your environment. if you have no time for your self how can you have time for others.




Now about your mate, can I trust him with my books???????????????????/

Simply no.

He is not my mate, he is a known associate, as a partner in crime I expect him to sell your books. By the way next time you see him Ask him if the gig is still on the 15th at 8pm for me. ;)

Cheers fg7

antichrist
08-06-2005, 03:10 AM
Maybe, but Im inclined to believe that your a product of your environment. if you have no time for your self how can you have time for others.



Simply no.

He is not my mate, he is a known associate, as a partner in crime I expect him to sell your books. By the way next time you see him Ask him if the gig is still on the 15th at 8pm for me. ;)

Cheers fg7

he told me to tell you sorry but can't do as will be staying "up" here for a few months if I also give him some work. He said for you to email him.

He want so play in the Gold Coast open where the 3 GMs are playing

antichrist
08-06-2005, 03:14 AM
[QUOTE=firegoat7]Maybe, but Im inclined to believe that your a product of your environment. if you have no time for your self how can you have time for others.

A/C
I know women who at "that" time turn into monsters and become "impossible" to live with, it is nothing to do with anything else.


Then surprisingly there other women who have no noticable changes.

EGOR
08-06-2005, 06:09 AM
When I look at the tradition arranged Lebo marriage (yes, those again!) and see people who don't have love to begin with, don't use dysfunctional behaviour, don't fall out of love so don't pack up, no deserted kids etc etc

and conversely

when I look at all the pain and sorrow in Western marriages it makes me wonder.
It's a good point, the western "ideal" of marraige is flawed.