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WhiteElephant
28-05-2005, 12:38 PM
I couldn't find an existing thread on this so I thought I would start one.

I've been having a look at the website and I have to say I am impressed with the PROFESSIONALISM of the site and the progress made so far. Easy to navigate, no irrelevant rubbish, sponsors presence is obvious but not overbearing. If I have a criticism then maybe the background is too blue although I am getting used to it the longer I look at the site.

Couple of other comments...good to see Gary Bekker on board as Arbiter, 4 GM's entered so far with 7 months to go!!! and as I look through the list of contributors, it really appears that the focus is on UNITING different factions of the chess community rather than some of the division we had last time. It is the kind of good work I would expect from Graeme and the Organising Committee...hope the tournament itself lives up to expectations.

W.E.

klyall
28-05-2005, 08:40 PM
Could someone please provide a link to the official site?

Thanks Kerry :P

eclectic
28-05-2005, 08:50 PM
http://www.*******2006.com/

eclectic

Mischa
28-05-2005, 08:57 PM
thank you eclectic...may never have found it otherwise!

BFG
29-05-2005, 07:55 AM
thank you eclectic...may never have found it otherwise!

It was in the ACF Bulletin this week :)

Mischa
29-05-2005, 08:25 AM
my e-mail not running

pax
05-06-2005, 01:35 PM
Hi Everybody,

I thought you would be interested to know that the (secure) registration form for the 2006 Championship and Junior events is now online. Players may register and pay with a credit card. This is by far the best way to submit your entry for the Championships.

http://www.*******2006.com/entry.htm

pax
07-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Congratulations to the Olivers on recording the first official entries in the Australian Championship Events (outside of the VIPs of course)!

Garvinator
07-06-2005, 11:23 AM
Congratulations to the Olivers on recording the first official entries in the Australian Championship Events (outside of the VIPs of course)!
:eek: :eek:

jenni
07-06-2005, 03:52 PM
Yes I know its early, but I've booked our flights, booked an apartment, so why not go the whole hog and enter the kids......

Lucena
07-06-2005, 04:03 PM
Thank goodness you know who :ogre: is not running the competition...

jenni
07-06-2005, 04:04 PM
Thank goodness you know who :ogre: is not running the competition...

Yes otherwise I would be being abused for renting an apartment instead of staying at the hotel. :lol:

Mischa
13-08-2005, 05:11 PM
Could someone please explain the 8.am start for the final day of play?

Garvinator
13-08-2005, 05:18 PM
Could someone please explain the 8.am start for the final day of play?
I am very unhappy about this!
The organising committee will not be engaging in trial by chesschat bulletin board,
therefore you will have to email Graeme directly at ggardiner@gardinerchess.com

eclectic
13-08-2005, 05:30 PM
The organising committee will not be engaging in trial by chesschat bulletin board,
therefore you will have to email Graeme directly at ggardiner@gardinerchess.com

i'll wait for antichrist to set up a poll as to whether this bulletin board black bans all promotion discussion and correspondence concerning the australian and junior championships in brisbane 2005/2006

not that i'll be going ... i'll be elsewhere thankfully ... :whistle:

eclectic

Mischa
13-08-2005, 05:33 PM
Why can't I be answered here?
If we all individually talk to Graeme how will we know if there is a consensus of opinion?
Garvin you don't have children do you?

Garvinator
13-08-2005, 05:39 PM
Why can't I be answered here?
If we all individually talk to Graeme how will we know if there is a consensus of opinion?
Garvin you don't have children do you?
How is whether or not I have children relevant to this discussion of trial by bulletin board? I have told everyone their policy, that is their decision. I am not a spokesperson for the organising committee, so direct questions to them. This will be the last time I state this and I will always answer questions this way from now on.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 05:40 PM
Why are you speaking for them if you are not a spokesperson?

Garvinator
13-08-2005, 05:46 PM
Why are you speaking for them if you are not a spokesperson?
i am not speaking for them. I just know their policy and am telling you about it. I thought you would at least want an answer of some sort about how to contact them.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 05:58 PM
They actually said they would not be "...engaging in trial by chesschat bulletin board"?
They were expecting some complaints?

Garvinator
13-08-2005, 06:00 PM
I have answered you Mischa, stop trying to stir up trouble. See you later. Email them, dont email them, it is no concern to me. Debating with me on here is a waste of your time as it wont get your question answered.

They are running the australian championships/juniors. I am not part of the organising team, therefore email them.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 06:10 PM
Hey GG
don't get angry....
my question is not answered but I see now that it is not a question you can answer.
Thanks for telling me that they are not open to debate!

PHAT
13-08-2005, 06:29 PM
Garvin you don't have children do you?

There is a protocol that I think was established before your joining us. It goes like this:

Criticise the childless Darwinian failures for not understanding the world of "married with children" and get banned.

:uhoh:

Mischa
13-08-2005, 06:31 PM
Matt I just meant that he perhaps would not be appreciative of the logistics in getting juniors and siblings awake, dressed, fed and transported in time or indeed in any sort of state to compete on the final day of a long chess tournament.

Bill Gletsos
13-08-2005, 06:41 PM
There is a protocol that I think was established before your joining us. It goes like this:

Criticise the childless Darwinian failures for not understanding the world of "married with children" and get banned.

:uhoh:Show where anyone has been banned from here for doing as you claim.

Bill Gletsos
13-08-2005, 06:49 PM
Could someone please explain the 8.am start for the final day of play?
I am very unhappy about this!I would think that the earlier start is related to the fact that the Australian Championship starts 2 hrs earlier on the final day at 1pm rather than 3pm.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 06:52 PM
I thought perhaps something like that...but is way to early for anyone to play.
Is this too allow for the seniors to leave early?

Bill Gletsos
13-08-2005, 07:37 PM
I thought perhaps something like that...but is way to early for anyone to play.
Is this too allow for the seniors to leave early?I dont know so you would need to ask the organisers about that.

eclectic
13-08-2005, 07:50 PM
making the kids play an hour earlier on last day is effectively the organisers adopting de facto daylight saving which queensland does not believe in because of the damage it does to ....


eclectic

Rincewind
13-08-2005, 08:39 PM
Actually an 8am start does seem rather early to me, even without feeding washing and dressing an entourage. Mischa, perhaps you, Libby, Jenni and other interested parents should get together an approach Graeme with a united front. A later start time might be accomodated. Can't hurt to ask.

Though don't ask Garvin. I heard a rumour that he's not on the organising committee. ;)

Bereaved
13-08-2005, 09:26 PM
Hi everyone,
I received a copy of the flier in the mail during last week, and presumed that many others had as well. The detail of an 8 o'clock start on the last round of the juniors is correct. But for me perhaps the most interesting part of this whole flier was the extensive and comprehansive list of prizes for all of the events for which all ages were eligible, but not as far as I can see, though I have been mistaken before, there are absolutely no prizes stipulated for the juniors.

It seems a bit strange to me that such a complete list of prizes is able to be projected for a yet to be specified number of adults, but not for a yet to be specified number of juniors.

I will watch the ACF bulletin with interest for when we get the first mention of how much incentive is being given to children and their families to spend at least two weeks interstate at a chess tournament.

Take care all, and God Bless, Macavity

NB I have not asked anyone to answer this, but anyone who likes is welcome to comment.

PS On a personal note, I don't imagine how anyone is supposed to play anything like good chess at 8:00am, and that is leaving aside the other concerns raised with additional family members to deal with, which turns this quite disturbed dream into an absolute nightmare :evil: :evil: , M

pax
13-08-2005, 10:16 PM
While 8am is an early start time, keep in mind that the fact of having Australian Championship and Junior events simultaneously mean quite some logistical juggling.

It is very common for chess tournaments to have an early start on the final day, because you have to have a prizegiving afterwards, and often you have to pack up the playing hall in order not to be charged for an extra day.

With the Championship events due to start at 1pm on the final day, 8am is the latest the Junior events can start (allowing for the time control). The 1pm start means at that the final Championship round will probably not finish before 6pm. Then you need to allow time for prizes to be allocated (and you need to be very sure not to get it wrong at the Oz Champs), and for the closing ceremony. I would be surprised if all of that is finished before 9pm, even with the early start.

If the final round was postponed, the closing ceremony would have to be postponed which would mean a pretty late night for the kids, which could be even worse than an early morning (especially when most people are checking out of hotels and travelling the next day). And remember that the organisers will probably be working very late into the night as it is.

By all means talk to Graeme about it, I'm sure he is quite happy to discuss it. Just remember that a lot of thought has probably gone in to the schedule, and a small change early in the day will have a lot of knock on effects.

Disclaimer: I am not a member of the organising committee, and these are just my observations. If you want an official reply, talk to Graeme.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 10:38 PM
NO prizes for the juniors?????

pax
13-08-2005, 10:45 PM
Of course there are prizes for the Juniors:
http://www.*******2006.com/junprizes.htm

Bereaved
13-08-2005, 10:49 PM
Thank you Pax, will look at the link, but one would have guessed that they would have made it onto the flier????

probably just an oversight by those overseeing, ( a bit like running two events concurrently to the detriment of both??)

Take care all and God Bless, Macavity

Oh and if there must be a time shift, I would suggest it is to lengthen the day at the night time end, as after all, no-one will have to play the next day will they?

It would seem to to be far worse that there could potentially be later discussions or controversies owing to upsets in the last round of the junior aside from over the board, eg, missed bus, late siblings, or anything else, and of course one would be more than upset in such a case; or doesn't this concern those running the tournament as long as the schedule fits????

yours, M

pax
13-08-2005, 10:50 PM
I don't know why the Junior prizes weren't in the mailout, but you really should check the website before claiming there is no information!

Incidentally, the prizes seem to me to be very substantial - nearly $8000 for Juniors across all events.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 10:55 PM
ok thanks
Just another question...why the discrepency in prize money for the girls under 14 and 16 and the Australian junior under 14 and 16?
If we are trying to encourage girls to play and enter, surely this won't help?

Bereaved
13-08-2005, 10:58 PM
and why should I check the website for a piece of information when I merely expressed a surprise at the absence of it being on the flier? And Mischa is right; are women still to be second class citizens? It would seem that if we wish to perpetuate the current gender balance in chess at all times, we are going about it the right way

Garvinator
13-08-2005, 11:02 PM
From reading the posts already on here, this is exactly why there will be no trial by bulletin board as I put it earlier. Instead of emailing Graeme or Ian, posts are made on here where there will not be any answers given.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 11:06 PM
Mr. No Spokesperson speaks again!!

Bereaved
13-08-2005, 11:08 PM
the spokesperson one has when one doesn't have a spokesperson??

take care all and God Bless, Macavity

Mischa
13-08-2005, 11:10 PM
So not to speak

Garvinator
13-08-2005, 11:11 PM
the spokesperson one has when one doesn't have a spokesperson??

take care all and God Bless, Macavity
why dont you make your take care line your signature Macavity ;)

I havent actually provided any answers as to official policy, so i am not a spokesperson :P

What is it about august that brings out all the criticisms for australian tournaments :uhoh:

Rincewind
13-08-2005, 11:17 PM
I havent actually provided any answers as to official policy, so i am not a spokesperson :P

What is it about august that brings out all the criticisms for australian tournaments :uhoh:

Criticisms? Seems to be nothing but people talking about details of a chess event. Is this that inappropriate for a chess bulletin board? I can't work out why it needles you so. Perhaps you should just stop not being the unofficial non-spokesperson for the event and the defensive tone of this thread may abate.

Mischa
13-08-2005, 11:25 PM
Garvin on the soles of your shoe

eclectic
13-08-2005, 11:30 PM
ok thanks
Just another question...why the discrepency in prize money for the girls under 14 and 16 and the Australian junior under 14 and 16?
If we are trying to encourage girls to play and enter, surely this won't help?

it's ok mischa, i'm sure kaitlin for one will have the nous to secure lucrative appearance money on the basis of her chesschat celebrity status!

:owned:

:rolleyes:

:whistle:

eclectic

Alan Shore
14-08-2005, 12:01 AM
ok thanks
Just another question...why the discrepency in prize money for the girls under 14 and 16 and the Australian junior under 14 and 16?
If we are trying to encourage girls to play and enter, surely this won't help?

It seems it has again fallen to me to point out the obvious.

1. #entrants of boys = x
2. #entrants of girls = ~(1/5)x
__________
3. Therefore, prizemoney, to be fairly distributed, should favour those who ENTERED (boys).

Girls always seem to cry foul of things, dismissing 'rationality' as something irrelevant. I think the prizes are more than fair.

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 12:05 AM
2. #entrants of girls = ~1/5x

I think you mean "x/5" :hand:

Mischa
14-08-2005, 12:08 AM
And this encourages girls?

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 12:17 AM
And this encourages girls?

The other point is you are the parent of a boy entrant (or possible entrant). So Belthasar's statement about it being the girls who always cry foul is patently absurd. It is to your financial advantage NOT to rock the prize structure.

The point is how do we encourage more girl participation in chess. One way would be to offer equal prize money. The "if we build it they will come" approach. The other option would be to adopt a user pays attitude and sit around next year wondering how we can encourage greater female participation in chess.

I await to see the web coverage of the open events as compared to the girls events this year.

Bereaved
14-08-2005, 12:19 AM
why dont you make your take care line your signature Macavity ;)

I havent actually provided any answers as to official policy, so i am not a spokesperson :P

What is it about august that brings out all the criticisms for australian tournaments :uhoh:

Hi GG,
on the first point, there may come a stage where I don't want to ( gasp!!!) sign a message in this manner with my feeling on a topic

On the second, in the absence of being a spokesman, perhaps you should feel free to express your opinion on this matter, rather than repeatedly echoing ( parroting? ) that you are not the spokesman, and that the organisers will not respond? Do you have an opinion on these matters??

Thirdly, I will produce the relevant quote
" Dear Mr President.
There are too many states these days,
please eliminate three,
signed Abraham Simpson

PS I am not a crackpot."

I don't believe that there is a stipulated season for responding to or suggesting an opinion about a topic; irrespective of the 'there is a season to all things' I think it would be a very busy time for all parties in the world, even if only the world of chess if they had to await August to raise all their concerns??

I think that when sees something that troubles them, one suggests that to be the case as otherwise no-one is likely to guess. Even as it is, we see these words and only get a brief glimpse of what the other person feels about a matter, but still better communication than silence and stagnation

take care and God Bless, Macavity

Alan Shore
14-08-2005, 12:20 AM
Edited just for you Baz.

Mischa, I don't think prizemoney is going to encourage girls, I think exposure to chess is. I've taught at all-girls primary and high schools and their motivations generally come from a) competitiveness and b) love of the game, as opposed to monetary incentives. These non-pecuniary benefits are more important for coaches - to promote the two factors I listed, first and foremost.

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 12:36 AM
Mischa, I don't think prizemoney is going to encourage girls, I think exposure to chess is. I've taught at all-girls primary and high schools and their motivations generally come from a) competitiveness and b) love of the game, as opposed to monetary incentives. These non-pecuniary benefits are more important for coaches - to promote the two factors I listed, first and foremost.

That all very well until you start having to pay for accomodation, transport and $75 entry fee to play interstate. So if the parents are loaded and money no object then "love of the game" becomes a luxury you can afford.

Lucena
14-08-2005, 12:41 AM
The organising committee will not be engaging in trial by chesschat bulletin board,
therefore you will have to email Graeme directly at ggardiner@gardinerchess.com

Hate to say it Garvin, but if they won't post here, then there's a very high chance the only person left to represent them will be.. erm... :hmm:

Alan Shore
14-08-2005, 12:42 AM
That all very well until you start having to pay for accomodation, transport and $75 entry fee to play interstate. So if the parents are loaded and money no object then "love of the game" becomes a luxury you can afford.

Look, it's the Australian Juniors. I couldn't afford to play in any of them. If you're not good enough, then too bad - start out playing some junior/school comps until you reach such an elite level that you can convince your parents it's worth the money. That's no reason to increase the prizes in the girls' division.

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 12:47 AM
Look, it's the Australian Juniors. I couldn't afford to play in any of them. If you're not good enough, then too bad - start out playing some junior/school comps until you reach such an elite level that you can convince your parents it's worth the money. That's no reason to increase the prizes in the girls' division.

Just missed the point dude. If the parents don't have the money then doesn;t matter how well you play.

Alan Shore
14-08-2005, 12:50 AM
Just missed the point dude. It's the parents who do or don't have the money. If the parents don't then the kids don't.

So we agree then, that extra prizes for girls' events is useless as participation comes down to parental finances and motivation from the sources I named. Brilliant!

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 12:53 AM
So we agree then, that extra prizes for girls' events is useless as participation comes down to parental finances and motivation from the sources I named. Brilliant!

No missed the point again. Perhaps you need more sleep.

Alan Shore
14-08-2005, 12:54 AM
No missed the point again. Perhaps you need more sleep.

Perhaps you're not being clear enough. :confused:

Lucena
14-08-2005, 12:55 AM
...
probably just an oversight by those overseeing, ( a bit like running two events concurrently to the detriment of both??)

I personally don't think it is a great format, especially for juniors who might want to play both events.

I suspect there are economical issues involved, the organisers save a lot of money by having the venue tied up for half as many days, etc. This sort of arrangement has been done before, the last time it happened I seem to remember was in Sydney, 1995/6 sort of thing I think. Someone correct me if there is a more recent precedent.

One last thing, I would not wish 8am starts on anyone playing in a chess tournament, let alone kids and their parents!

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 12:57 AM
Perhaps you're not being clear enough. :confused:

Can't be clear enough for some people. However you might have noticied I edited my post as it was not as clear as it could have been.

Mischa
14-08-2005, 12:59 AM
Thank you garethbcharles....you have said it more succinctly

Lucena
14-08-2005, 01:01 AM
I don't know why the Junior prizes weren't in the mailout, but you really should check the website before claiming there is no information!


I wouldn't blame any parent for being bemused by lack of prize info on a flyer, for many people the flyer is the principal source of information and as such one would expect it to have all relevant details on it. In my 5/6 years of reading AJC tournament flyers I can't recall any that didn't contain prize info.

Garvinator
14-08-2005, 01:06 AM
I personally don't think it is a great format, especially for juniors who might want to play both events.

I suspect there are economical issues involved, the organisers save a lot of money by having the venue tied up for half as many days, etc. This sort of arrangement has been done before, the last time it happened I seem to remember was in Sydney, 1995/6 sort of thing I think. Someone correct me if there is a more recent precedent.

One last thing, I would not wish 8am starts on anyone playing in a chess tournament, let alone kids and their parents!
The reason for holding the events together are two fold:

1) Cost of venue, much cheaper for two weeks instead of four
2) Queenstown

Lucena
14-08-2005, 01:09 AM
The reason for holding the events together are two fold:

1) Cost of venue, much cheaper for two weeks instead of four
2) Queenstown

yeah, I forgot Queenstown, actually that's probably the main reason and not a bad one it is too.

I notice you appear to be returning to your "spokesman" position again...
Nevertheless I acknowledge your point looks valid.

Alan Shore
14-08-2005, 01:11 AM
The reason for holding the events together are two fold:

1) Cost of venue, much cheaper for two weeks instead of four
2) Queenstown

I remember when I was a kid - 8am starts were fine. True though, it's likely the parents suffering! Us uni students Gareth are likely far more averse to those early starts ;)

Yet, it is a good idea for cost-cutting. As for queenstown.. much less of a factor I reckon.

Bill Gletsos
14-08-2005, 01:16 AM
I remember when I was a kid - 8am starts were fine. True though, it's likely the parents suffering! Us uni students Gareth are likely far more averse to those early starts ;)

Yet, it is a good idea for cost-cutting. As for queenstown.. much less of a factor I reckon.My understanding is that Queenstown was a major factor. If the Junior was held as it normally is following the Adult event then it would directly clash with Queenstown and it was believed that many of the more promising juniors would play in Queenstown.

Alan Shore
14-08-2005, 01:17 AM
My understanding is that Queenstown was a major factor. If the Junior was held as it normally is following the Adult event then it would directly clash with Queenstown and it was believed that many of the more promising juniors would play in Queenstown.

Interesting.. how many juniors played in Queenstown last tournament?

Lucena
14-08-2005, 01:18 AM
I remember when I was a kid - 8am starts were fine. True though, it's likely the parents suffering! Us uni students Gareth are likely far more averse to those early starts ;)

Yet, it is a good idea for cost-cutting. As for queenstown.. much less of a factor I reckon.

I'm going to check the dates. If running the AJC and aus champs consecutively would have clashed with the Queenstown tournament I think that would be a major problem especially for juniors wanting to get some more experience(I assume if one were to run the tournaments consecutively, then the Auschamps would be first, as having it later and clashing with Qtown would cause bigger problems).

Bereaved
14-08-2005, 01:18 AM
Hello everybody,

if no one is playing chess the next day, nor are they required to fly out to Queenstown immediately, why not start the last days rounds for the juniors at the normal time (9 am ) for the rest of the tournament, the championship at 2pm rather than 1 pm and let there be that one extra hour at the end? I have the opinion that the extra hour at those places is a better use of the rescheduling of the final day and may mean additional entries; as yet no-one has actually responded to that particular part of my suggestion,

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Lucena
14-08-2005, 01:19 AM
Interesting.. how many juniors played in Queenstown last tournament?

It's a one off tournament and I believe it is one of the most hyped/publicised tournaments in Australasian chess history. I believe GM Murray Chandler has personally overseen the organising etc and there will be numerous GMs (seriously, Chandler will get substantially more GMs to play there than we managed to get on this side of the Tasman a year ago)

Garvinator
14-08-2005, 01:20 AM
yeah, I forgot Queenstown, actually that's probably the main reason and not a bad one it is too.

I notice you appear to be returning to your "spokesman" position again...
Nevertheless I acknowledge your point looks valid.
i was expecting some smart-gareth ;) to give a reply like that :P

Bill Gletsos
14-08-2005, 01:21 AM
Interesting.. how many juniors played in Queenstown last tournament?I do not believe there has previously been an event the size and scope of the Queenstown 2006 event which sort of renders your question irrelevant.

Bill Gletsos
14-08-2005, 01:26 AM
I'm going to check the dates. If running the AJC and aus champs consecutively would have clashed with the Queenstown tournament I think that would be a major problem especially for juniors wanting to get some more experience(I assume if one were to run the tournaments consecutively, then the Auschamps would be first, as having it later and clashing with Qtown would cause bigger problems).Queenstown runs from 15-24 January 2006.

Lucena
14-08-2005, 01:35 AM
Queenstown runs from 15-24 January 2006.

Thanks Bill. So I guess that confirms what I suspected after Garvin mentioned Qtown. If they ran(this is for Belthasar's benefit) the juniors after Seniors, they would be competing with Qtown, which is not an enviable prospect. That event was being publicised aggressively about a year in advance, I think, probably more than that. And there is a definite attraction for the juniors who have already got plenty of adult scalps to try to add some GMs (or in some cases, some more GMs) to their collection.

Mischa
14-08-2005, 01:48 AM
You are all assuming that the "promising juniors" parents can afford to go to Queenstown. Seems more likely to be the adults who will be going.
The largest group are Graeme"s
So if the event is condensed to allow a select few funded juniors and some adults to play in NZ. how can this justify the inconvenience to the rest of us plebs?

Garvinator
14-08-2005, 01:56 AM
You are all assuming that the "promising juniors" parents can afford to go to Queenstown. Seems more likely to be the adults who will be going.
The largest group are Graeme"s
So if the event is condensed to allow a select few funded juniors and some adults to play in NZ. how can this justify the inconvenience to the rest of us plebs?
do you want to also pay for the extra two weeks venue hire? Both Queenstown and the extra venue hire makes running the champs/juniors together the 'best' option in my opinion.

Apart from the adult coaches, how are the adults affected by the change? They can still play in the champs and then go to qtown, this option is still the same no matter which of the two formats is used.

What is the inconvience for the rest of us plebs?

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 02:22 AM
do you want to also pay for the extra two weeks venue hire? Both Queenstown and the extra venue hire makes running the champs/juniors together the 'best' option in my opinion.

Well paying for an extra two weeks venue hire is cheaper than paying for airfares, etc to go to Queenstown.


Apart from the adult coaches, how are the adults affected by the change? They can still play in the champs and then go to qtown, this option is still the same no matter which of the two formats is used.

The point of the adults is that the adults are more likely to play in both events as it is (generally) cheaper for them to participate. Therefore the format is advantageous to the adults, not the juniors.


What is the inconvience for the rest of us plebs?

Ummm. Hello. 8am!!! Remember?

Libby
14-08-2005, 07:41 AM
Firstly - to the lovely & defensive Garvin -

All the criticisms and concerns of last year (from around August) were unfounded and unjustified? Hmmm - where were those free buses, extra cinema sessions, end-of-event parties, daily shuttle services and no probs if we stay elsewhere?

Give me a break and take some responsibility!! :wall:

As for the 8am start, that's been on the agenda since the bid was lodged. It directly impacted on some of the ACTJCL accommodation options we looked at. Do I think it's a good idea? NO! NO! NO! However, it is only on the one day.

Do I see why it couldn't be 9am and 2pm? Not really, except for the whole end-of event presentation logistics. I will suggest that those not expecting a prize may well be on their way no matter what time the presentation is scheduled for. Many kids will be finished by 10am (or earlier) and parents will avail themselves of the opportunity to save a night's accommodation by bolting ASAP.

Do I support that? Not really, as we come to the presentation anyway out of good manners. Do I understand that? Yes, totally. It's a bloody expensive exercise taking your child to the event. And in my experience, presentations run late - no matter what. People seem to forget that a whole mass of prizes do not rely on the last result and cheques could be written out well in advance rather than waiting until every game finishes, until you've had a chinwag and a nice warm dinner etc etc.

Will more prizemoney bring more girls? No. Try checking your state by state tournament lists and count up how many girls play regularly in events. In the ACT we don't have prizemoney but (correct me if I'm wrong) we have more girls playing than any other state - and not just in all-girl events.

Until efforts are made to increase the number of girls playing at every level of chess you will not get girls playing at the top level. And even as the parent of a female player, I can't support 10-20% of the participating players (girls)competing for 50% of the money.

And on the whole issue of prizemoney. I haven't done the math but what is it? Maybe 10% of players take home money and maybe half of that would take home enough to make a dent in the cost of taking them to the event. So 90% of us "plebs" can expect nothing, no matter how big the prize pool is - which is how it should be. Kids are wilting (I've seen some good local examples) under the pressure to win already, let alone the pressure to recoup the expense of their trip. Nice if it happens but don't forget the other 90%.

I know Arosar likes to refer to us as "birkenstocked" but get over the idea that the whole thing is populated with "spoilt-little-rich-kids." Most of us are just out there doing our best and my income was -$65 on the tax return last year. That's what you make with about 30+ hours a week as a volunteer - sweet FA. I'm not whinging about it. Fact is, I'm someone doing something about "it" (chess in the ACT) because I'm a parent of a child who wants to play. End of story.

arosar
14-08-2005, 08:51 AM
FMD! 8AM start? I'm still taking my first piss at 8AM.

AR

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 10:05 AM
As for the 8am start, that's been on the agenda since the bid was lodged.

Does that mean it was public knowledge since then or only to people on the ACF council and those whose representatives (a) noticed, and (b) chose to share with them that particular detail. The question is this, I guess: as the fliers were posted this week, is this the first opportunity that the wider public has had to examine the details of the tournament schedule?

I don't think anyone was saying chess is full of rich kids. But certainly having money eases the burden of interstate and international participation. The point was only made to counter Bel's argument that equality of prize money is immaterial as juniors should be playing for the love of the game. I agree that that should be the motivation.

However, equality of prize money is really about establishing girls chess as being seen as of equal value with boys. The vision should be to have equal participation, strength and depth in both events. How do we get from here to there? Lower prize money and no internet coverage (as per Mt Buller)?

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 10:09 AM
FMD! 8AM start? I'm still taking my first piss at 8AM.

Yes. Which is even worse in your case as you don't get out of bed until 9.

jenni
14-08-2005, 11:09 AM
I thought perhaps something like that...but is way to early for anyone to play.
Is this too allow for the seniors to leave early?

Combined prize-giving is scheduled to start at 7:30. This means the adult start has been moved back from 3 to 1, which means the juniors have to start early.

While I understand the reasons that drove the Junior and Adult tournaments to be combined, it really isn't something that should happen.

If you think James has problems, try having 2 teenagers who do not believe the world exists before 1pm, except on school days.....

jenni
14-08-2005, 11:24 AM
do you want to also pay for the extra two weeks venue hire? Both Queenstown and the extra venue hire makes running the champs/juniors together the 'best' option in my opinion.

Apart from the adult coaches, how are the adults affected by the change? They can still play in the champs and then go to qtown, this option is still the same no matter which of the two formats is used.

What is the inconvience for the rest of us plebs?

Firstly our whole family is going to Queenstown and even Tony is going to play. (I have thought about it, but am too chicken to do it).

I think Queenstown is going to be huge and exciting and the decision to combine the Aus Champs and Aus Juniors is understandable and probably the best of a bad situation.

However if Queenstown became an annual or even bi-annual event, should this continue to happen?

The answer is a resounding NO.

The premier Australian Junior tournament should not have to play second fiddle to a New Zealand tournament. The Aus Juniors should be organised as it normally is and if that means it clashes with a future Queenstown, too bad. Elite Juniors and adults can then make their choice as to which they go to.

Life is full of choices and no reason why people should have to have it all. :)

The important thing is that the Aus Juniors goes back to being run at a decent time of the day with less impact on preparation and coaching.

As far as the extra venue hire - that is just silly - ACT ran the Aus Open and the Aus Juniors in 2001 and we didn't have a problem in hiring two venues and running them consecutively. If a state chooses to run both events, then they have to be prepared for the costs of separative venues and have enough volunteers for the very long haul of a month of chess.

Basically the venue in Brisbane is very junior unfriendly and this would almost always be the case - a venue suitable to adults is very rarely suitable for juniors.

I think the Junior organisations are gritting their teeth and putting up with the conditions in Brisbane becasue of the special circumstances of the unique Queenstown tournament, but that doesn't mean that this is a model for the future.....

Libby
14-08-2005, 01:23 PM
Does that mean it was public knowledge since then or only to people on the ACF council and those whose representatives (a) noticed, and (b) chose to share with them that particular detail. The question is this, I guess: as the fliers were posted this week, is this the first opportunity that the wider public has had to examine the details of the tournament schedule?

The brochure (which I haven't actually seen but I think is the same) appears on the website and has done for as long as I have been looking at the website. It isn't in nice big bold print but it is stated that the final round has an 8am start.

Many of the issues I took up with Mt Buller came out of an information vacuum. Minimal info on the website, nobody answered your emails and information posted here which turned out to be incorrect, incomplete, insufficiently detailed or misleading.

In contrast, I have found all the info I have needed to date on the Qld website and have clarified points with both Ian Murray and Graeme Gardiner by email. Ian even went to the trouble of visiting the accommodation I was looking at to ensure I wasn't staying above a brothel or next door to a shooting gallery. He took photos and sent me brochures and was very helpful.

Strangely enough, this sort of prompt, helpful service leads me to have a slightly different level of confidence in the event even if (as with Jenni) there are things I don't like about this constant scheduling of junior activities for the convenience of the adult playing community.


I don't think anyone was saying chess is full of rich kids. But certainly having money eases the burden of interstate and international participation. The point was only made to counter Bel's argument that equality of prize money is immaterial as juniors should be playing for the love of the game. I agree that that should be the motivation.

Plenty of people say this and (from perusing some of the comments on other national sites re the recent world youth issues) it seems the attitude is universal. Rich, pushy parents take their children to these events and then whine about the conditions. The reality is that our ACT representatives (even those 9 who were overseas this year) cross the full range of financial circumstances and some work their backsides off fundraising for the opportunity and some don't need to. that's the reality.

And my real point is that prizemoney goes to the few and significant prizemoney goes to even fewer. So when 150-200 children turn up to the Aus Juniors how many are going to win prizemoney? So, in reality, how many are having their "burden" relieved? And are they necessarily, those in most need of the relief? Sorry - it doesn't work except for those whose children may be so far ahead that the win is almost guaranteed.

And if they know you need them to win the money, isn't that a pressure you don't want to place on them for the event?


However, equality of prize money is really about establishing girls chess as being seen as of equal value with boys.

Agreed, definitely. But the numbers are immensely disproportionate. If we had even 1/4 of the boys numbers I might agree with the shift in money but I think (no, I haven't checked!) the number of girls playing has declined each year that Kayleigh has been participating. It is absolutely pitiful and I'm sorry, I once would have fought tooth & nail for equality, but right now Women & Girl's chess in Australia is doing nothing to deserve it.


The vision should be to have equal participation, strength and depth in both events. How do we get from here to there? Lower prize money and no internet coverage (as per Mt Buller)?

Again, the key isn't prizemoney & internet coverage. It's a development issue. We have few girls at the Aus Juniors because we have few girls AT ALL. They aren't even looking at the brochures to see the prizemoney. They aren't even on the internet showing interest in the games. Those factors might help & motivate the girls who are already there. But without school, club & state level development - nobody else is going to give a toss.

Garvinator
14-08-2005, 01:51 PM
Firstly - to the lovely & defensive Garvin -

All the criticisms and concerns of last year (from around August) were unfounded and unjustified? Hmmm - where were those free buses, extra cinema sessions, end-of-event parties, daily shuttle services and no probs if we stay elsewhere?

Give me a break and take some responsibility!! :wall:
how about you take it up with the person who could have made a difference :evil: I will continue to be defensive when I am blamed for stuff I couldnt control. It wasnt my decision to scrap the end of tournament party, I didnt promise the buses- I just passed on that information that George said was going to happen. Again George said it was going to happen and it didnt.

How about instead of being so negative about mt buller, you could actually give some positives, or maybe you are just a negative person in general.

You keep saying that you were put out and our job was so bad. I have already listed previously who was at fault and things would have been very differently run if I was in charge. Therefore I have had a complete gutful of you blaming me for ALL of the problems at mt buller :evil: . If it isnt like that then say so, cause that is truly how it feels. I put my hand up to help out and all i have gotten is twelve months of grief. Doesnt make me want to help out again I can assure you.

I believed I was as helpful as I could be with the information I had. Did you want me to promise things that I knew I couldnt deliver- I am not like that so you would have been disappointed again.

I have been affected to by this whole sorry saga, so get off my back because I am sick and tired of hearing about your whining about my supposed inaction at mt buller.

Libby
14-08-2005, 02:10 PM
how about you take it up with the person who could have made a difference :evil: I will continue to be defensive when I am blamed for stuff I couldnt control. It wasnt my decision to scrap the end of tournament party, I didnt promise the buses- I just passed on that information that George said was going to happen. Again George said it was going to happen and it didnt.

How about instead of being so negative about mt buller, you could actually give some positives, or maybe you are just a negative person in general.

You keep saying that you were put out and our job was so bad. I have already listed previously who was at fault and things would have been very differently run if I was in charge. Therefore I have had a complete gutful of you blaming me for ALL of the problems at mt buller :evil: . If it isnt like that then say so, cause that is truly how it feels. I put my hand up to help out and all i have gotten is twelve months of grief. Doesnt make me want to help out again I can assure you.

I believed I was as helpful as I could be with the information I had. Did you want me to promise things that I knew I couldnt deliver- I am not like that so you would have been disappointed again.

I have been affected to by this whole sorry saga, so get off my back because I am sick and tired of hearing about your whining about my supposed inaction at mt buller.

Hi Garvin

In part, I think you need to take responsibility for inviting my response by opening up with lines like


The organising committee will not be engaging in trial by chesschat bulletin board, and

What is it about august that brings out all the criticisms for australian tournaments

I'm sorry you find me such a whiner. In fact, I absolutely do not blame you for everything at Mt Buller. I've just been a bit uncomfortable with your tendency to not be responsible for anything to do with Mt Buller.

And if you read my post-Buller posting, you should find comments about how much our ACT families enjoyed their time there. Overall, they had a good experience. They enjoyed staying in close proximity to one another and to the other players. Those who stayed in the lodge we booked really enjoyed staying together like that and it worked very well for coaching. We worked hard in the ACT to get our players there and provided information, subsidies, and transport and accommodation assistance to maximise our team numbers.

My negative posting, if you read carefully, is about inflated promises, failure to provide information, failure to provide services and an escalating tendency to "blame" the player community for each shortfall. I don't like that attitude. And I don't like ACT juniors being abused. I don't like people running with the attitude that their client group can "get stuffed."

It's not all about you Garvin.

jenni
14-08-2005, 04:32 PM
This sort of arrangement has been done before, the last time it happened I seem to remember was in Sydney, 1995/6 sort of thing I think. Someone correct me if there is a more recent precedent.

!

The last time we had this was indeed in Sydney in 95/96. It was generally felt after that tournament that it had been awful and that format shouldn't happen again.....

jenni
14-08-2005, 04:50 PM
However, equality of prize money is really about establishing girls chess as being seen as of equal value with boys. The vision should be to have equal participation, strength and depth in both events. How do we get from here to there? Lower prize money and no internet coverage (as per Mt Buller)?

I agree with you that Girls chess should not be seen as second rate. However I also have to agree with Libby that the real issue is about creating some girls to attract. Basically you could offer a million dollar prize fund for girls and you probably wouldn't attract any extras to the Aus Juniors (not Aussies anyway - you might have an influx from other countries. :) )

Go through the adult tournaments and junior tournaments in the various states and then compare to the Aus Juniors - pretty much what you see playing in the states is what you get playing at the Aus Juniors. The extra girls just don't exist.

For Mt Buller I worked with Charles Zworestine to approach virtually every girl I could think of who wasn't registered for the Aus Juniors and asked them to play. There were some who were going away or doing other things. There were some who didn't feel they were "good" enough to play. Money just wasn't a factor.

The numbers of girls who play are just pitifully few and too many of our good girls don't really enjoy playing and give up rapidly. Maybe money could tempt a few of these to play. However if the prize fund is to encourage girls and get numbers, it just won't work. Where money will work is in grass roots development. NSW under Ingela Eriksson is starting to do grass roots development again and ACT does a huge amount. This is what matters - prize money at the Aus Juniors is just window dressing to make people feel good about the issue.

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 05:38 PM
The numbers of girls who play are just pitifully few and too many of our good girls don't really enjoy playing and give up rapidly. Maybe money could tempt a few of these to play. However if the prize fund is to encourage girls and get numbers, it just won't work. Where money will work is in grass roots development. NSW under Ingela Eriksson is starting to do grass roots development again and ACT does a huge amount. This is what matters - prize money at the Aus Juniors is just window dressing to make people feel good about the issue.

I agree money will not fix the problem. I think it more about a perception than anything else. It should not be that hard to make the prize money equal they are within $100 of each other anyway, aren't they? Why not just have a policy of parity to avoid the 'girls chess is second best-slap in the face' effect.

I agree other things must be done to increase participation. And money and internet coverage alone will not make one whit of difference to numbers. But if it changes perceptions (even a little bit) then it is a start.

I think Libby's comment that girls junior chess not 'deserving' prize money parity is a little harsh. I think girls chess needs support not punishment.

Libby
14-08-2005, 06:02 PM
I agree money will not fix the problem. I think it more about a perception than anything else. It should not be that hard to make the prize money equal they are within $100 of each other anyway, aren't they? Why not just have a policy of parity to avoid the 'girls chess is second best-slap in the face' effect.

I agree other things must be done to increase participation. And money and internet coverage alone will not make one whit of difference to numbers. But if it changes perceptions (even a little bit) then it is a start.

I think Libby's comment that girls junior chess not 'deserving' prize money parity is a little harsh. I think girls chess needs support not punishment.

Do you truly believe the current Australian Women's chess scene "deserves" equality with the scene for male or "open" players?

You would be one of few on this BB. You only have to trawl through the various threads here on a variety of topics where comments have been made on the value of WFM, WIM & WGM titles. Or whether or not Sally Yu should have had a prize at the Aus Rapid? Or the importance of the World Chess Beauty Contest? Assessments of the "brain power" (with respect to chess) of women pop up now and then. Some thoughtful. Some patronising.

Look at the way our Australian Girls' Champions have progressed. They win the Aus Girls and then they "move up" to the Aus Open Junior. You just cannot change a perception that it is a "second-best" event when the actual conduct of the participants supports the 'second-best" argument. Prizemoney won't change that (just put bigger smiles on a couple of faces ;) ). The Aus Girls is perpetually weakened by it's inability to field anything like all the best girls. It doesn't even field all the best girls to play in the Junior Championship.

Do I want to "punish" those girls who play? Absolutely not. I spent three days of the recent school holidays and many hours in advance of that putting into place a Development program with exactly the opposite intention.

What I can't agree, irrespective of gender, is that a tournament attracting fewer than half the participants of another, with a significant difference in the quality of the field, is entirely "deserving" of prize parity.

I wouldn't argue against it, if organisers want to offer equal prizemoney. But at some point the event needs to be able to fund itself. Girls' chess needs to sustain itself - not be propped up by the boys. Girls already have more opportunities. Opportunities have come to my daughter because of her gender, not because of her ability. She would never have been selected for the World Youth or even for the ERGAS Squad had she been a boy. I can even use that line to promote chess to parents of girls because I know there will be opportunities for trophies, honours and prizemoney based on gender.

There's no desire to "punish" but a strong desire to see growth at the base to actually give this event real status. I have long maintained the position that we will never know how good girls may be at chess until we have something like equality in numbers right at the beginning. A 1 in 100 boy turns up every year. A 1 in 100 girl might take a decade.

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 06:14 PM
Do you truly believe the current Australian Women's chess scene "deserves" equality with the scene for male or "open" players?

Yes and I don't believe the majority share my view. The point is that for most tournaments this is not difficult to do. The disparity between the U14s, for example, seems trivial and insulting to the girls event. It might take more effort to justify prize mony parity for the U18 event since there the disparity is substantial. However over time and with greater female participation I hope I live to see that day too.

If greater parity did nothing but improve the perception of girls chess and the support it has from chess officialdom then I think it is a worthwhile exercise.

Libby
14-08-2005, 06:32 PM
Yes and I don't believe the majority share my view. The point is that for most tournaments this is not difficult to do. The disparity between the U14s, for example, seems trivial and insulting to the girls event. It might take more effort to justify prize mony parity for the U18 event since there the disparity is substantial. However over time and with greater female participation I hope I live to see that day too.

If greater parity did nothing but improve the perception of girls chess and the support it has from chess officialdom then I think it is a worthwhile exercise.

Your intentions are admirable (and that probably sounds patronising). The reality, for most of the girls, is they nearly all win a prize. I think my daughter was 7th in Mt Buller (Girls U18) and won the third place money. I think, in the U18 Girls, everyone down to 12th (out of 17) won money. So about 70% of the girls won money. In the U12, it was a bit tougher - I think only 50% of the 8 players won money :rolleyes: .

I'm sure many boys would be happy with that return. I think in Perth, there were enough trophies (Girls U18) that only 1 or 2 girls were actually missing out from the total participants.

How much more encouragement do they need? I think they need numbers and I don't think that will come without serious development being done in every state. I don't think they need to match the numbers in the Open but I think I'd like to see more than 25 girls in the tournaments (that's all that they had in Mt Buller across U12 - U18) before affirmative action starts throwing a jackpot of money at a handful of participants.

Equity in prizemoney won't equal respect until the Aus Girls Champion has to battle at least 8-10 girls of similar ability (plus 20-odd of improving ability) to take the title. At least. And we should aim for even more.

pax
14-08-2005, 07:33 PM
The difference in prizemoney is roughly $1000 across the divisions, not including the rapid and lightning.

Just remember that if you increase the girls prizes, you must almost certainly decrease the boys prizemoney. Parity would be pretty ridiculous given the ratio of entrants in the respective competition.

The totally "equal" way to distribute prizemoney would be for girls prizes to come from the girls entry fees, and the boys prizes to come from boys entries. Of course, that would mean far less money for the girls. It seems pretty clear to me that the girls are actually getting *more* money than the boys proportionally speaking, and that is great from the point of view of encouraging entries from girls.

Note that if Brisbane gets the same number of entries from girls as Mt Buller, then they will make a significant loss on prizes alone from the girls events.



I agree money will not fix the problem. I think it more about a perception than anything else. It should not be that hard to make the prize money equal they are within $100 of each other anyway, aren't they? Why not just have a policy of parity to avoid the 'girls chess is second best-slap in the face' effect.

I agree other things must be done to increase participation. And money and internet coverage alone will not make one whit of difference to numbers. But if it changes perceptions (even a little bit) then it is a start.

I think Libby's comment that girls junior chess not 'deserving' prize money parity is a little harsh. I think girls chess needs support not punishment.

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 08:03 PM
The difference in prizemoney is roughly $1000 across the divisions, not including the rapid and lightning.

Most of that is in the open. It was More the U14 and U16 prizes I was thinking of which were almost parity but not quiet. The 'not quiet' grated. I accept that the U18 is a difficult case to make due to numbers and cultural reasons. Maybe one day.


Just remember that if you increase the girls prizes, you must almost certainly decrease the boys prizemoney. Parity would be pretty ridiculous given the ratio of entrants in the respective competition.

In the case of U16 and U14 I believe this is just +-$50 for first prize only. The disparity being minimal is worth addressing I believe.


The totally "equal" way to distribute prizemoney would be for girls prizes to come from the girls entry fees, and the boys prizes to come from boys entries. Of course, that would mean far less money for the girls. It seems pretty clear to me that the girls are actually getting *more* money than the boys proportionally speaking, and that is great from the point of view of encouraging entries from girls.

Note that if Brisbane gets the same number of entries from girls as Mt Buller, then they will make a significant loss on prizes alone from the girls events.

Yes I accept all that but my argument is not one of equaling the investment of all entrants. This makes girl entries a better investment but even that (while ok) is not really the point.

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 08:05 PM
Equity in prizemoney won't equal respect until the Aus Girls Champion has to battle at least 8-10 girls of similar ability (plus 20-odd of improving ability) to take the title. At least. And we should aim for even more.

I think our goal is the same, perhaps just minor discord on the best route to get there.

Libby
14-08-2005, 08:21 PM
Most of that is in the open. It was More the U14 and U16 prizes I was thinking of which were almost parity but not quiet. The 'not quiet' grated. I accept that the U18 is a difficult case to make due to numbers and cultural reasons. Maybe one day.

In the case of U16 and U14 I believe this is just +-$50 for first prize only. The disparity being minimal is worth addressing I believe.


I'm assuming you realise the U18, U16 & U14 are played as a single event? So the 5 place prizes for the U18 plus the U16 & U14 prizes are all awarded to the 10, 15 or 20 girls who turn up?

The combination of age (most participants being U14 and ALL in Mt Buller being U16) and low numbers overall, allowing for prizes to dribble all the way down the list - almost.

I just don't think any greater respect is won - quite the opposite - if you end up with a "turn up and you'll get a prize" scenario. And, as a parent and someone who coordinates a State group, I don't think we would get any extra girls to play is you upped the money.

I'm not really advocating exactly equal numbers for equal pay (if you like) but a respectable number of entries affords credibility to everything - prizemoney & titles. We are a long way from a respectable number of entries from girls.

PHAT
14-08-2005, 08:24 PM
Matt I just meant that he perhaps would not be appreciative of the logistics in getting juniors and siblings awake, dressed, fed and transported in time or indeed in any sort of state to compete on the final day of a long chess tournament.

And I meant if you suggest that he "not be appreciative of the logistics of ..." you risk being attacked.

PHAT
14-08-2005, 08:29 PM
Show where anyone has been banned from here for doing as you claim.
I have a vague recollection that the last or nearly last post I made before being banned last Octobber (Oct?) had a line something like, "... you die all alone in a big silent house."

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 08:32 PM
I just don't think any greater respect is won - quite the opposite - if you end up with a "turn up and you'll get a prize" scenario. And, as a parent and someone who coordinates a State group, I don't think we would get any extra girls to play is you upped the money.

Not advocating any extra prizes just tweaking of those already there.

PHAT
14-08-2005, 08:33 PM
Can't hurt to ask. [for a 9:00am start]



NEVER ask. Demand, and as a absolutely united front you will get it. Kneecap anyone who breaks ranks.

PHAT
14-08-2005, 08:46 PM
FMD! 8AM start? I'm still taking my first piss at 8AM.

AR

And you still haven't got out of bed.

PHAT
14-08-2005, 08:54 PM
I have been affected to by this whole sorry saga, so get off my back because I am sick and tired of hearing about your whining about my supposed inaction at mt buller.

:boohoo:

[Mate, be cool, OK. No one is really after you, realy. Take care :wink:]

Mischa
14-08-2005, 08:54 PM
And you still haven't got out of bed.

I think Rincewind already did that one

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 08:54 PM
And you still haven't got out of bed.

Hey Matt. Not as funny the second time round. ;)

PHAT
14-08-2005, 08:57 PM
Hey Matt. Not as funny the second time round. ;)

BUGGER! Now I feel stupid. Maybe I should start reading your posts again for something worthwhile. ;)

Rincewind
14-08-2005, 11:13 PM
BUGGER! Now I feel stupid. Maybe I should start reading your posts again for something worthwhile. ;)

What only NOW you're starting to feel stupid? ;)

eclectic
14-08-2005, 11:34 PM
have any juniors ACTUALLY POSTED on this thread?

eclectic

Bill Gletsos
14-08-2005, 11:43 PM
I have a vague recollection that the last or nearly last post I made before being banned last Octobber (Oct?) had a line something like, "... you die all alone in a big silent house."Vague is right, as well as misleading.
You were not banned as you are trying to imply for criticising Kevin for being "childless Darwinian failures for not understanding the world of "married with children"".
You were banned for 48 hours on 13th December for posting foul and offensive material whilst drunk.
Subsequent bans in December were for abusing the admin and for you attempting to circumvent bans by creating and using other accounts.

eclectic
14-08-2005, 11:55 PM
if anyone here wishes to carry on arguing like children could they do it at around 8 in the morning so it to remain within the original intentions of this thread?

;)

thank you

eclectic

Mischa
15-08-2005, 12:43 AM
:)

Oepty
15-08-2005, 06:20 PM
I don't think increasing prize money would increase the number of girls who played. Maybe because more effort is put into getting girls to play, but I suspect a higher percentage of active rated girls turned up to the juniors in Mt Buller than active rated boys, which just shows how low the number of girls playing is.

The Under 18 Girls is a inferior tournament to the Open tournament because the girls are weaker. Whether this is because of a lower number of girls playing or for some other reason, I do not know. Which ever it is getting more girls playing in each state could only strengthen the girls chess scene.

Lastly I will admitt I probably get more enjoyment out of seeing Sophie Eustace playing well because she is a girl.

Scott

eclectic
15-08-2005, 06:34 PM
:whistle:

eclectic

Frank Walker
15-08-2005, 06:40 PM
Nope, just us old people arguing amongst ourselves :whistle:


have any juniors ACTUALLY POSTED on this thread?

eclectic

jenni
16-08-2005, 10:11 AM
The Under 18 Girls is a inferior tournament to the Open tournament because the girls are weaker. Whether this is because of a lower number of girls playing or for some other reason, I do not know. Which ever it is getting more girls playing in each state could only strengthen the girls chess scene.
Scott

Really hate the idea of "inferior". Smaller yes, weaker OK, but "inferior" - its a word with horrible connotations.

jenni
16-08-2005, 10:22 AM
I think our goal is the same, perhaps just minor discord on the best route to get there.

I think this is correct - we have the same end goal. :)

I guess Libby and I are very fair people and it is already embarrasing how well off the girls tournament is in terms of prize money and trophies compared to the open one.

Also there is a tendency to throw money at problems and then ignore them. I guess we don't want people to think that having equal money for the girls means that any in road has been made on the problem. We need to attack the dual problems of getting more girls to play chess and then getting the good ones to keep playing.

Who have been the good girls (home grown) over the last 8 years? Laura Moylan, Kylie Coventry, Jasmine Lauer-Smith, Catherine Lip, Michelle Lee, Shannon Oliver, Andjelija Zivanovic, Karina Mowles, Angela Song, Heather Huddleston. Probably others, but these spring to mind immediately.

How many of them are still playing? Very few. How many of them will be playing in 2 years time? My prediction? Shannon and possibly Laura....

I guess it is all about broadening the base - the boys give up in droves as well, its just there are so many to start with that you are left with a few. The base is not the Aus Juniors, it's the work that is being done in the states that will create entry level kids.

Rincewind
16-08-2005, 10:59 AM
I think this is correct - we have the same end goal. :)

I guess Libby and I are very fair people and it is already embarrasing how well off the girls tournament is in terms of prize money and trophies compared to the open one.

Perhaps you are feel you should moderate your position to protect youself from accusations of bias. As someone with no vested interest in girls chess other than the desire to see it thrive, I can afford to be a little more outspoken. ;)

Garvinator
16-08-2005, 11:52 AM
Who have been the good girls (home grown) over the last 8 years? Laura Moylan, Kylie Coventry, Jasmine Lauer-Smith, Catherine Lip, Michelle Lee, Shannon Oliver, Andjelija Zivanovic, Karina Mowles, Angela Song, Heather Huddleston. Probably others, but these spring to mind immediately.
and out of these, how many are above 1900 acf? At Mt Buller, the top under 18 girl was 1600 compared to 2100 for the open.

Oepty
16-08-2005, 06:55 PM
Really hate the idea of "inferior". Smaller yes, weaker OK, but "inferior" - its a word with horrible connotations.

I am sorry if I have used a word that has some horrible connotations, I do not know what you are refering to, and I certainly did not mean anything more that the way I explained it. The players are weaker and the quality of chess is generally worse. Sorry if you took it to mean something else. I believe I have acted as an advocate for womens/girls chess in SA in the past and if the opportunity arises again I will be again.
Sorry again if I offended you.
Scott Colliver

Oepty
16-08-2005, 07:03 PM
and out of these, how many are above 1900 acf? At Mt Buller, the top under 18 girl was 1600 compared to 2100 for the open.

Speaking of the 2 South Australians mentioned, Kylie Coventry and Jasmine Lauer-Smith, I believe they both have ratings in the 1700's, Coventry's might be 1715, just from memory.
Scott

Bereaved
16-08-2005, 10:12 PM
Hello everyone,
of those who played with me in my initial junior tournaments, there are only about three or four still playing actively...the retention rate has improved since then, but it still seems we need some other way to make ex-juniors continue playing,

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

Lucena
16-08-2005, 11:38 PM
Speaking of the 2 South Australians mentioned, Kylie Coventry and Jasmine Lauer-Smith, I believe they both have ratings in the 1700's, Coventry's might be 1715, just from memory.
Scott

Kylie Coventry according to the ACF master list is rated 1716. You couldn't have got much closer. However Jasmine Lauer-Smith is rated 1844.

Garvinator
16-08-2005, 11:42 PM
Kylie Coventry according to the ACF master list is rated 1716. You couldn't have got much closer. However Jasmine Lauer-Smith is rated 1844.
The thing is, will they travel to play in the australian juniors in any division? How active are these players?

jenni
17-08-2005, 08:09 AM
I am sorry if I have used a word that has some horrible connotations, I do not know what you are refering to, and I certainly did not mean anything more that the way I explained it. The players are weaker and the quality of chess is generally worse. Sorry if you took it to mean something else. I believe I have acted as an advocate for womens/girls chess in SA in the past and if the opportunity arises again I will be again.
Sorry again if I offended you.
Scott Colliver

Hi Scott

You didn't offend me :)

I just don't like the word inferior in this context.

regards,

Jenni

jenni
17-08-2005, 08:12 AM
The thing is, will they travel to play in the australian juniors in any division? How active are these players?

That was my point Garvin - they are totally inactive and probably will never play chess again (apart from being waaay too old - remember I was using a long time frame. )

pax
17-08-2005, 10:01 AM
Actually, I am not sure that the retention rate for girls is necessarily any worse than for boys. It's just that there are so few to start with that you end up with almost none after the post school/university drop out.

If I were to consider the top juniors from WA when I was playing junior chess (from 10-15 years ago), out of the top 10 or 20, none are playing regular senior chess now. A few play very occasionally (like me), but most have disappeared entirely.

Garvinator
17-08-2005, 02:11 PM
That was my point Garvin - they are totally inactive and probably will never play chess again (apart from being waaay too old - remember I was using a long time frame. )
sorry, thought maybe players were picked out that could actually come back wont or dont play any more but could play in the australian juniors if they were playing. :uhoh:

rob
17-08-2005, 03:23 PM
Actually, I am not sure that the retention rate for girls is necessarily any worse than for boys. It's just that there are so few to start with that you end up with almost none after the post school/university drop out.
To help in future chess participation, perhaps the states/territories should try to get as many juniors as practical (& without deterring senior players) to really enjoy chess at a standard where they can and do compete with seniors. Then after most of them drop out (studies, work, girl/boy friends etc) follow-up with them (& any seniors that drop out) by email or post once a year with a calendar of events. If they realise that they have competed and enjoyed chess with seniors and are prompted to return then who knows.

Maybe some states/territories do make efforts to get back players that have dropped out, I'd be interested to know.

pax
17-08-2005, 04:27 PM
To help in future chess participation, perhaps the states/territories should try to get as many juniors as practical (& without deterring senior players) to really enjoy chess at a standard where they can and do compete with seniors. Then after most of them drop out (studies, work, girl/boy friends etc) follow-up with them (& any seniors that drop out) by email or post once a year with a calendar of events. If they realise that they have competed and enjoyed chess with seniors and are prompted to return then who knows.

Maybe some states/territories do make efforts to get back players that have dropped out, I'd be interested to know.

That's a very good suggestion.

Former top juniors do occasionally come back, and sometimes with great success (e.g Timo Farber in WA).

rob
17-08-2005, 04:51 PM
That's a very good suggestion.

Former top juniors do occasionally come back, and sometimes with great success (e.g Timo Farber in WA).

Something that surprised me was strong young WA adults that moved to NSW and then hardly played before giving up (Eu Jin Teh, Daniel Dwyer, Jason Field). I'd have thought that with a much bigger number of similar strength players they'd have loved the variety of challengers.

antichrist
17-08-2005, 09:27 PM
I will play my usual part... - do girls lose the plot because of Big Brother, Pop Idol and a few others?

Oepty
18-08-2005, 06:16 PM
Hi Scott

You didn't offend me :)

I just don't like the word inferior in this context.

regards,

Jenni

Jenni, okay, perhaps you would like to suggest an alternative word I could use.
Scott

Oepty
18-08-2005, 06:26 PM
The thing is, will they travel to play in the australian juniors in any division? How active are these players?

Garvin. Kylie Coventry is 22 and is a former winner of the Australian Girls Championship in 1998 when the juniors where held in Adelaide. Jasmine Lauer-Smith won the Juniors outright in 1995 and jointly with Catherine Lip and S.Norris who I don't know. Lauer-Smith would be a similar as to Coventry, but I don't know how old she is. I understand Lauer-Smith was living in or near Darwin a couple of years ago and still might be. So to answer your question neither of these players will be playing in the Australian Juniors. I got this information from the ACF website records page and the ACF Swiss Perfect master list, apart from the living in Darwin part.
Scott

Libby
18-08-2005, 08:19 PM
I will play my usual part... - do girls lose the plot because of Big Brother, Pop Idol and a few others?

Possibly they lose it in response to this standard of male conversation and logic ... :rolleyes:

jenni
18-08-2005, 10:36 PM
Jenni, okay, perhaps you would like to suggest an alternative word I could use.
Scott

Weaker or smaller are fine - they are accurate descriptions of the state of the Girls' tournaments. Inferior has connotations of super race vs down trodden menials. :)

jenni
18-08-2005, 10:39 PM
and S.Norris who I don't know.
Shilow was the name (can't guarantee the spelling. ) A rather trendy young lady with fancy nails. :)

Garvinator
19-08-2005, 12:04 AM
Garvin. Kylie Coventry is 22 and is a former winner of the Australian Girls Championship in 1998 when the juniors where held in Adelaide. Jasmine Lauer-Smith won the Juniors outright in 1995 and jointly with Catherine Lip and S.Norris who I don't know. Lauer-Smith would be a similar as to Coventry, but I don't know how old she is. I understand Lauer-Smith was living in or near Darwin a couple of years ago and still might be. So to answer your question neither of these players will be playing in the Australian Juniors. I got this information from the ACF website records page and the ACF Swiss Perfect master list, apart from the living in Darwin part.
Scott
not good enough, not acceptable as reasons for why they wont be playing in the aus juniors in brisbane :P :whistle: ;)

Oepty
20-08-2005, 03:58 PM
Shilow was the name (can't guarantee the spelling. ) A rather trendy young lady with fancy nails. :)

The master list has Shiloh, and her rating as 1506.
Scott

Oepty
20-08-2005, 04:00 PM
Weaker or smaller are fine - they are accurate descriptions of the state of the Girls' tournaments. Inferior has connotations of super race vs down trodden menials. :)

Does it? It might in some circumstances, but surely not in all. I am still puzzled, very puzzled.
Scott

antichrist
20-08-2005, 05:12 PM
not good enough, not acceptable as reasons for why they wont be playing in the aus juniors in brisbane :P :whistle: ;)

You would have to have rocks in your head to go to Brissie in summer. Not a breeze, suffocating heat even at night.

Garvinator
20-08-2005, 06:39 PM
You would have to have rocks in your head to go to Brissie in summer. Not a breeze, suffocating heat even at night.
some ppl were saying the exact opposite for the 2005 australian open and juniors for mt buller. Too cold etc etc :whistle:

antichrist
20-08-2005, 08:05 PM
some ppl were saying the exact opposite for the 2005 australian open and juniors for mt buller. Too cold etc etc :whistle:

But it was not held in the middle of winter was it???

The Brissie event is in the middle of summer. Where all the Brisbanites who can are running away up and down the coast - anywhere to get away from the hothole and get an ocean breeze.

Have you seen all those apartment skyscrapers up the road to Sunshine Coast - thousands of them - note they are not in Brisbane.

Garvinator
20-08-2005, 08:07 PM
But it was not held in the middle of winter was it??? no, same time as the 2006 australian champs. But it did snow for a couple of days at the start of the australian open (dec 28/29 ish.)

antichrist
20-08-2005, 08:10 PM
no, same time as the 2006 australian champs. But it did snow for a couple of days at the start of the australian open (dec 28/29 ish.)


It is a treat getting snow in summer - put in your drink.


You should known then that something was wrong - see you never seen those CDs did you?

Garvinator
20-08-2005, 08:28 PM
You should known then that something was wrong - see you never seen those CDs did you?
I havent even seen a cd :whistle:

Altecman
21-08-2005, 12:25 AM
I might join the AUstralian JNR and Australian Open where is it and what days?

Lucena
21-08-2005, 10:39 AM
from http://www.*******2006.com/:

Australian Chess Championships 2006
Australian Junior Chess Championships 2006
Grand Windsor Ballroom
Carlton Crest Hotel
King George Square
Ann Street, Brisbane
Wednesday 28 December 2005
to Monday 9 January 2006

jenni
21-08-2005, 12:23 PM
It is a treat getting snow in summer


Not if you've not taken appropriate clothes and the hotel can't give you a meal at 8:30 and you have to walk through snow in sandals to get to another hotel (which also has no food)..... :P

jenni
21-08-2005, 12:25 PM
I might join the AUstralian JNR and Australian Open where is it and what days?

Its not an Open - it is the Australian Champsionships and thus closed (unless you are rated above 2100?). However there is a strong major that runs alongside the Champs and of course the Juniors.

Frank Walker
21-08-2005, 09:11 PM
Funny how the 2005 and 2006 championships have a few matches common theat are running in the same year. If it is the 2006 Championships shouldnt it be held in late 2006 as it is a tournament to see who is the best as of 2006 but it is based on players who have been earning their rating point in 2005


:hmm:

Frank

Garvinator
21-08-2005, 09:40 PM
Funny how the 2005 and 2006 championships have a few matches common theat are running in the same year. If it is the 2006 Championships shouldnt it be held in late 2006 as it is a tournament to see who is the best as of 2006 but it is based on players who have been earning their rating point in 2005


:hmm:

Frank

The reason the champs/open/juniors are held when they are is that is the biggest group of holidays available,which then maximises the amount of potential players available.

Also most of the rest of the year is taken up with other tournaments. Even though it is called the 2006 championships is because the majority of the tournament is held in 2006. The open/champs actually start after christmas each year.

I suppose though that if a set of organisers put in a bid to hold the tournaments at another time of the year and could show it would work, it could be considered and the time of the year might be different :hmm:

Frank Walker
21-08-2005, 09:46 PM
The reason the champs/open/juniors are held when they are is that is the biggest group of holidays available,which then maximises the amount of potential players available.

Also most of the rest of the year is taken up with other tournaments. Even though it is called the 2006 championships is because the majority of the tournament is held in 2006. The open/champs actually start after christmas each year.

I suppose though that if a set of organisers put in a bid to hold the tournaments at another time of the year and could show it would work, it could be considered and the time of the year might be different :hmm:


:eh: Sort of explains it but juniors improve rapidly in the space of a few months, and I still think the tournament should still be held at the end since it is judging the best players of 2006

jenni
21-08-2005, 10:20 PM
:eh: Sort of explains it but juniors improve rapidly in the space of a few months, and I still think the tournament should still be held at the end since it is judging the best players of 2006

It is just about impossible, without playing across Christmas and I don't think too many families would be happy with that! :) Primary schools tend to finish late - sometimes even 19th December, so if you wanted the 2005 titles decided at the end of the year, rather than the beginning, it would have to be crammed in after that. Also itis an unusual occurence for the juniors to be played across Dec and Jan - normlaly it is contained in January.

I don't think anyone gets too hung up on who is the best in 2006 - if soemone missed out on a title and has improved rapidly during the year, so they are now better than the title holder, then they can go and be the 2007 title winner. Much more of an inequity is when a person is born, particularly the younger age groups. Say a kid turns 10 on 1 January and another turns 10 on 31 December. They play in the under 10 in January of that year and the one kid is nearly a year older than the other - it makes a HUGE difference in those younger age groups.

Also the Aus Juniors is a factor in who gets selected for the World Youth and as that happens sometime between July and Novemebr each year the titles need to be decided before that. Many countries use their juniors as the absolute deciders for selections, and Australia definitely doesn't do that, but it is a factor, particularly in the younger categories.

pax
22-08-2005, 12:03 PM
:eh: Sort of explains it but juniors improve rapidly in the space of a few months, and I still think the tournament should still be held at the end since it is judging the best players of 2006

Using that kind of logic you could argue that every championship (club, state, national, world) of every sport should be held in December. Gee I wonder why they don't do that?

Fact is, it ISN'T the event to judge the best players of 2006. It is simply the event to determine the winner of the championship for that year.

Frank Walker
22-08-2005, 09:23 PM
Using that kind of logic you could argue that every championship (club, state, national, world) of every sport should be held in December. Gee I wonder why they don't do that?

Fact is, it ISN'T the event to judge the best players of 2006. It is simply the event to determine the winner of the championship for that year.

Oh, everybody is ganging up on me :(

Garvinator
22-08-2005, 09:32 PM
Oh, everybody is ganging up on me :(
Not at all. I am sure in a perfect world, the australian juniors would be held at the end of the year. It is just that logistics, availability etc means that player the tournament at the start of the year works best with what we have available.

Frank Walker
22-08-2005, 09:33 PM
I like to think the world is perfect, obviously not!

Garvinator
22-08-2005, 09:35 PM
I like to think the world is perfect, obviously not!
by the way, on here if everyone was ganging up on you, you would be in no doubt that it was happening :doh: :whistle: :uhoh:

Libby
22-08-2005, 10:06 PM
Not at all. I am sure in a perfect world, the australian juniors would be held at the end of the year. It is just that logistics, availability etc means that player the tournament at the start of the year works best with what we have available.

What perfect world?

For a junior championship you need to time the event when your players have a spare fortnight or so. Given the various states have various different holidays about the only time you can guarantee to get your players together is the long break in January. Even then, I think Qld goes back earlier than the other states and I know some of your players were hopping off a plane from past Aus Juniors and all but slipping into their school uniform on the same day.

In a perfect world the Junior event would always be awarded in it's own right and run at a venue and with conditions designed to provide the best experience for the junior players. This isn't a sledge at the Qld event - just a general observation (and wish).

antichrist
22-08-2005, 11:29 PM
When the Aust Champ (or some very big comp) was held at Penrith a few years ago a lot of us Sydney Centrics could not make the journey, like Brissy we reakon it was only for maddogs and Englishmen. And the Englishmen part may have some significance.

jase
24-09-2005, 01:29 PM
I booked my flight yesterday. Am looking forward to being involved in an Australian Championships, after a hiatus, and looking forward to spending time in Brisbane, which I last visited about 25 years ago.

I anticipate organising a QLD v The Rest cricket match this year. It was a tradition instilled in me by Tony Davis, of Melbourne, many years ago, and one I have perpetuated when I have been involved in National Championships.

Solo can have the QLD captaincy - he probably still keeps a very good wicket.
Canfell will need a bit of a pre-season but he used to be a classy top order bat. Not to mention Rogers ripping it square with his crafty offspin ...

WhiteElephant
24-09-2005, 01:49 PM
I booked my flight yesterday. Am looking forward to being involved in an Australian Championships, after a hiatus, and looking forward to spending time in Brisbane, which I last visited about 25 years ago.

I anticipate organising a QLD v The Rest cricket match this year. It was a tradition instilled in me by Tony Davis, of Melbourne, many years ago, and one I have perpetuated when I have been involved in National Championships.

Solo can have the QLD captaincy - he probably still keeps a very good wicket.
Canfell will need a bit of a pre-season but he used to be a classy top order bat. Not to mention Rogers ripping it square with his crafty offspin ...

Matthew Drummond used to be a legend with the bat but I doubt he will make the trip to Brisbane.

PHAT
24-09-2005, 03:12 PM
May I nominate Kevin Bonham and Bill Gletsos to be the stumps.

Alan Shore
24-09-2005, 07:19 PM
I anticipate organising a QLD v The Rest cricket match this year. It was a tradition instilled in me by Tony Davis, of Melbourne, many years ago, and one I have perpetuated when I have been involved in National Championships.

Solo can have the QLD captaincy - he probably still keeps a very good wicket.
Canfell will need a bit of a pre-season but he used to be a classy top order bat. Not to mention Rogers ripping it square with his crafty offspin ...

Oh! Please organise it to be played before Jan 3, I leave for Europe then.. I want to play!

Denis_Jessop
24-09-2005, 09:15 PM
May I nominate Kevin Bonham and Bill Gletsos to be the stumps.

And Matt, you can be the bails:rolleyes:

DJ

PHAT
25-09-2005, 01:33 AM
And Matt, you can be the bails:rolleyes:

DJ


I am already on top of them, so, I will be the bat and you can be the ball. ;)

Libby
25-09-2005, 07:13 AM
I am already on top of them, so, I will be the bat and you can be the ball. ;)

Stick to fielding at silly mid-off ...

PHAT
25-09-2005, 08:50 AM
Stick to fielding at silly mid-off ...

You will be on a sticky wicket if you try to cover all puns before I slip them all in, if I may be so bowled.

Denis_Jessop
25-09-2005, 06:11 PM
You will be on a sticky wicket if you try to cover all puns before I slip them all in, if I may be so bowled.

An unkind cut. :cool:

DJ

PHAT
25-09-2005, 07:34 PM
An unkind cut. :cool:

DJ

Or just a slash reqiring pads.

Libby
26-09-2005, 08:40 AM
over and out from this maiden ...

bunta
26-09-2005, 11:16 AM
I might go, travel up to brisbane even though i'm still learning alot about chess at a late age of 17, why is the australian minor have under 1000 rated players?

bunta
26-09-2005, 11:23 AM
do juniors need to enter the junior categories of the event?

Rincewind
26-09-2005, 11:48 AM
do juniors need to enter the junior categories of the event?

I believe the junior is run as two separate events. An u18 and an u12. You will only be able to enter the u18 (of course). These games will be in the morning. You would also be able to enter the major or minor which will be played in the afternoons.

Rafizadeh
03-10-2005, 02:06 PM
Hello, is it true that James Morris and Eugene Schon are not going to play in the U12's this year, instead opting for the U18's? I think this would be a big mistake, firstly if my memory is correct Schon played in the U18 at Buller, and Morris did play in the U12 as top seed but didnt establish himself, finished a very respectable equal 2nd but it looked much better on paper than in reality as he was lucky to get away with a full point in a few of his games. Also played in the major in doeberl, when he could have played in the minor.

I beleive its important they win the U12's before moving up, because it quite easy to move up into a higher rating/age group, always being the underdog, picking up lots of rating points, and basically when the tournament is over its quite hard for anyone to say you have had a bad tournament. Whereas playing in the U12 means you have to perform under pressure every round as the favourite to prove that you are the best. Obviously Morris and Schon are two excllent players, and rightly the top U12 players behind Raymond song in Australia, but if you look closely at their results its very obvious they are not comferteble playing against juniors that are either the same/below their strength, whereas they thrive playing against 1700-1800 players.

Im just posting this to get an idea of other people's opinions whether they agree with me that you must prove yourself in your category before moving up. As a junior I beleive it takes alot more skill to win a tournament when you are expected to win than it does to put in a really good performance in a tournament where you have nothing to lose.

cheers

jenni
03-10-2005, 02:24 PM
Hello, is it true that James Morris and Eugene Schon are not going to play in the U12's this year, instead opting for the U18's? I think this would be a big mistake, firstly if my memory is correct Schon played in the U18 at Buller, and Morris did play in the U12 as top seed but didnt establish himself, finished a very respectable equal 2nd but it looked much better on paper than in reality as he was lucky to get away with a full point in a few of his games. Also played in the major in doeberl, when he could have played in the minor.

I beleive its important they win the U12's before moving up, because it quite easy to move up into a higher rating/age group, always being the underdog, picking up lots of rating points, and basically when the tournament is over its quite hard for anyone to say you have had a bad tournament. Whereas playing in the U12 means you have to perform under pressure every round as the favourite to prove that you are the best. Obviously Morris and Schon are two excllent players, and rightly the top U12 players behind Raymond song in Australia, but if you look closely at their results its very obvious they are not comferteble playing against juniors that are either the same/below their strength, whereas they thrive playing against 1700-1800 players.

Im just posting this to get an idea of other people's opinions whether they agree with me that you must prove yourself in your category before moving up. As a junior I beleive it takes alot more skill to win a tournament when you are expected to win than it does to put in a really good performance in a tournament where you have nothing to lose.

cheers

My understanding is that Eugene will not play the juniors, but only the major and that James is considering playing under 18 not under 12 (same for Sally Yu and possibly Emma).

I have always got my kids to play in their age division, because I agree with Shervin's points. However it can be a very stressful exercise for both parents and children.

It is a very individual choice and I think a parent and child have the right to make the choice that suits them. There are coaches who actively promote playing up in harder divisions to get better experience. (This discussion does not belong here and should continue on the Aus juniors thread).

pax
03-10-2005, 02:45 PM
Hello, is it true that James Morris and Eugene Schon are not going to play in the U12's this year, instead opting for the U18's? I think this would be a big mistake, firstly if my memory is correct Schon played in the U18 at Buller, and Morris did play in the U12 as top seed but didnt establish himself, finished a very respectable equal 2nd but it looked much better on paper than in reality as he was lucky to get away with a full point in a few of his games. Also played in the major in doeberl, when he could have played in the minor.

In the end it's their choice. On the one hand they have the opportunity to win a national title. On the other hand they have the chance to play a much stronger opposition, which would in the long term be more likely to help them improve as a player.

While there should be a few decent competitive games in the u/12 for a player of James or Eugene's standard, there will also be a number of walkovers which won't benefit them very much.

Above all, I think they shouldn't be pressured to do one thing or another, but simply allowed to do what they would like to do!

four four two
03-10-2005, 06:20 PM
Rafizadeh,while you give their performances at Mt Buller, you must remember that a year for a junior who is both actively playing adults and studying chess is a long time. Both players are over 1500,while they may not finish in the top 3 of the U18 I think its fair to say they wont be out of their depth.
Not everyone who enters a tournament enters for the purpose of winning,most people enter to test their strength as a chess player. ;)

klyall
03-10-2005, 10:32 PM
The starting times of games was very important in Eugene's decision not to play in the Under 12's - especially an 8.00 am start one morning. Some other juniors may decide to have a more leisurely morning.

Rincewind
03-10-2005, 10:41 PM
Morris did play in the U12 as top seed but didnt establish himself, finished a very respectable equal 2nd but it looked much better on paper than in reality as he was lucky to get away with a full point in a few of his games.

One of his draws was a little lucky. Which were the "few" full points you thought James was "lucky to get away with"?

Rafizadeh
04-10-2005, 12:44 AM
From my memory the game that sticks in my mind is the 8th? round game against Justin Chow, it was a forced loss within the first 15 moves, he had obviously been prepped for the game but wasn't familiar with the move orders and continued playing moves that didnt quite fit with the position. There was another game but i have no clue who it was against.

I understand its an individual choice, and there should be no pressure to play in any division, but the point im trying to make is there is this general conception that playing in the harder division will benefit your chess in the long term which i dont beleive is always true. In Victoria especially since there are many high rated players there will always be strong fields to play in, but playing as favourite in the U12's is a unique situation where you must perform under expectations. Having the skill to win tournaments (and yes it is a skill, many strong players find it difficult to actually win a tournament) will benefit your chess greatly in the long term. Not in terms of improving the technical aspect of your chess, rather the psychological toughness and confidence it brings.

cheers

four four two
04-10-2005, 03:05 AM
8am is a TOTALLY CRAZY start time,what on earth were the organisers thinking? I mean its the last round ,but come off it. :wall: :eek: :whistle:

Garvinator
04-10-2005, 03:28 AM
8am is a TOTALLY CRAZY start time,what on earth were the organisers thinking? I mean its the last round ,but come off it. :wall: :eek: :whistle:

From earlier in this thread.


While 8am is an early start time, keep in mind that the fact of having Australian Championship and Junior events simultaneously mean quite some logistical juggling.

It is very common for chess tournaments to have an early start on the final day, because you have to have a prizegiving afterwards, and often you have to pack up the playing hall in order not to be charged for an extra day.

With the Championship events due to start at 1pm on the final day, 8am is the latest the Junior events can start (allowing for the time control). The 1pm start means at that the final Championship round will probably not finish before 6pm. Then you need to allow time for prizes to be allocated (and you need to be very sure not to get it wrong at the Oz Champs), and for the closing ceremony. I would be surprised if all of that is finished before 9pm, even with the early start.

If the final round was postponed, the closing ceremony would have to be postponed which would mean a pretty late night for the kids, which could be even worse than an early morning (especially when most people are checking out of hotels and travelling the next day). And remember that the organisers will probably be working very late into the night as it is.

By all means talk to Graeme about it, I'm sure he is quite happy to discuss it. Just remember that a lot of thought has probably gone in to the schedule, and a small change early in the day will have a lot of knock on effects.

Disclaimer: I am not a member of the organising committee, and these are just my observations. If you want an official reply, talk to Graeme.

Mischa
04-10-2005, 08:16 AM
a forced loss for whom?
I never watch James' games as I have little idea of what is going on.
James hates me to watch his games as it makes him nervous.
The game you refer to is the ONLY game in his short chess caareer that James has asked me to watch. HE came over during the game and sasid come and watch. Later I asked him why and he replied something like...I felt confident of a win...I knew I had a postition that was good.
The game went on for a long time after he asked me to watch...so I don't understand what you mean.
Are you familiar with James' style of play?
And for the record, being top seed and Not winning did more to sap his confidence than anything I know. This is his Hobby...NOT a career choice! I fail to see the necessity of putting a 10 year old under pressure for a hobby!

Ian Rout
04-10-2005, 09:05 AM
a forced loss for whom?

In chess commentary, "forced" doesn't mean inevitable; a "forced" win (or loss for the other side) means that there is a sequence of forcing moves (checks, captures, threats) leading to an obviously won position. This is distinct from positions where one side may have a clear advantage but it can't be analysed out to a win.

Positions with "forced" wins are often not won.

Rincewind
04-10-2005, 09:36 AM
Positions with "forced" wins are often not won.

And more so the lower the rating of the player with the 'forced' win as it is more likely that he or she may simply miss the line or underestimate it. As we are talking about the Australian U12 competition I think the word "lucky" has to be put into context, lest 70% of the game or more be judged as lucky. For something to be worthy of being called lucky it has to be of a magnitude which makes it exceptional for the standard of play in that competition. Far be it from me to deride the U12 standard of play. I lost to one u12 on the weekend and had a needed a houdini act to escape a loss from another.

jenni
04-10-2005, 11:26 AM
8am is a TOTALLY CRAZY start time,what on earth were the organisers thinking? I mean its the last round ,but come off it. :wall: :eek: :whistle:

Tell us about it :wall:

I did talk to Graeme about it, but he didin't want to make prize-giving any later and with the potential of playoffs for the juniors and adults, 8am is when the last round of the juniors has to start. I think most people are staying an extra night, but if you are trying to check out of a hotel or apartment and trying to get kids to the venue by 8am it is going to create unbelievable stress for all concerned.

four four two
04-10-2005, 12:19 PM
Well it looks like the last round needs to be sponsored by Nescafe,the junior comps could be decided by someone falling asleep at the board! ;) :eek:

dunwannapost
04-10-2005, 12:27 PM
8am is a TOTALLY CRAZY start time,what on earth were the organisers thinking? I mean its the last round ,but come off it. :wall: :eek: :whistle:

I love being a coach :D

Can't stand the early final rounds... Never could play a good final game

four four two
04-10-2005, 12:43 PM
Hey Dunwann,just give you and your pupils 2 black coffees and 3 choclate bars,that will keep em buzzed. ;)

Careth
04-10-2005, 09:25 PM
Lol, Four Four Two, that was my approach to Mt. Buller, and I dont think it helped. 2 Litres of Coke a day.. sickening by most standards. If you want best results, just get enough sleep, another factor in my bad Mount Buller. Wa players- cricket lovers you'd forever be up barracking :owned: and when not, blitz with Yita kept you up :P

Watto
25-11-2005, 02:08 PM
Funny about the whole coca cola, coffee thing.

There was a NASA study involving spiders spinning their webs after they’d used various substances: “Of all the chemicals tested, including marijuana and chloral hydrate, the web produced by the spider on caffeine was the worst, showing no sign of the 'hub and spokes' pattern that is fundamental to convention web design.”
It was later suggested that the web study only really shows the power of caffeine as an insecticide; the results have no bearing on human behaviour.
This is probably correct, but I’m certain I’d spin a hopeless web under the influence of caffeine and I’d spin a better one without… !

Used to be completely addicted to coffee but gave it up a few years ago when it became too obvious how intolerant I’d become to it. Couldn’t concentrate long enough to read anything longer than newspaper articles, couldn’t remember basic words, a real short circuiting of the brain went on, not to mention racing blood pressure and shakiness. (I wasn’t taking anything else, just coffee ;) )

Since I’ve taken up chess, because of the unusual level of mental gymnastics involved, the contrast has been even more obvious. If I’m caffeine free, what calculation I’m capable of is clear, the brain’s sharp. If I fall back into drinking caffeine (even just regular cups of tea) because I’m tired, well, a few days down the track, genuine toxic dementia sets in… plans drift off and take a while to come back, can’t remember the variation I’m trying to calculate, sight of the board really deteriorates to the point where it’s hardly worth playing, you name it.

Then I give up caffeine and within a few days the brain is sharp again and remains that way.

It sounds a bit extreme but who knows there might be others who have similar symptoms (related to caffeine ;) )

four four two
25-11-2005, 05:01 PM
I can just see it now Watto,one of your opponents offers you some innocent looking edible laced with caffeine hoping your middlegame plans go awry. :D

Computer oriented caffeine addicts usually end up discovering the "magic" elixir of mountain dew with caffeine tablets,did this concoction ever come across your path Watto? :hmm: ;)

pax
25-11-2005, 05:16 PM
I can just see it now Watto,one of your opponents offers you some innocent looking edible laced with caffeine hoping your middlegame plans go awry. :D

Computer oriented caffeine addicts usually end up discovering the "magic" elixir of mountain dew with caffeine tablets,did this concoction ever come across your path Watto? :hmm: ;)

I don't believe the Mountain Dew you get in Australia actually has any caffeine in it (I could be wrong). The American version has about twice the amount of Coke :)

Watto
25-11-2005, 05:41 PM
I can just see it now Watto,one of your opponents offers you some innocent looking edible laced with caffeine hoping your middlegame plans go awry. :D

Computer oriented caffeine addicts usually end up discovering the "magic" elixir of mountain dew with caffeine tablets,did this concoction ever come across your path Watto? :hmm: ;)
hehe- they don't need a secret weapon at this stage.
no, I was (almost) always loyal to coffee, no soft drinks for me! ;)

Frank Walker
27-11-2005, 04:57 PM
Could someone please explain the 8.am start for the final day of play?

Well, wouldnt make me very happy :(

BUT.... not to worry because I dont think they have daylight savings so it is still 9 ocklock on our body clocks! :D

Garvinator
27-11-2005, 10:24 PM
BUT.... not to worry because I dont think they have daylight savings so it is still 9 ocklock on our body clocks! :D
no dst up here.

pax
28-11-2005, 08:32 AM
no dst up here.

Oh well, that solves that problem then. Pretend the start times are 10am and 9am, keep your watches on DST, have your dinner and bedtime an hour early, and don't watch TV :)

Garvinator
28-11-2005, 09:11 AM
Oh well, that solves that problem then. Pretend the start times are 10am and 9am, keep your watches on DST, have your dinner and bedtime an hour early, and don't watch TV :)
but also the sun is up at 430am or so here and on some days it is already 30 degrees by 9am and the humidity is just getting started :eek:

Frank Walker
28-11-2005, 12:35 PM
well bring temporary igloos and pengins to keep the cool image, and the PENGUINS are NOT taking MY SANITY!!!!

Frank Walker
30-11-2005, 11:07 AM
Aaah...

Just realised tey have got a sponsor.
Perhaps we should change the thread name.

Currently googling XSTRATA, ooh too complicated, i think it is a technology company.

pax
30-11-2005, 12:17 PM
Currently googling XSTRATA, ooh too complicated, i think it is a technology company.

Hmm.. Mining, I think you'll find...

Bereaved
26-12-2005, 11:14 AM
Hello everyone,

I found this on the official website.

don't know how the colours were assigned; does anyone know if they are correct?


Round 1

1 FM Guthrie, Aaron : GM Ftacnik, Lubomir
2 GM Rogers, Ian : FM Levi, Eddy
3 Smirnov, Vladimir : GM Schmaltz, Roland
4 GM Chandler, Murray : FM Dougherty, Michael
5 WIM Caoili, Arianne : GM Johansen, Darryl
6 IM Zhao, Zong-Yuan : Lakner, Jay
7 Booth, Stewart : IM Lane, Gary
8 IM Wohl, Alex : Ly, Moulthun
9 Bird, Andrew : IM Smerdon, David
10 IM Solomon, Stephen : Pyke, Malcolm
11 Wallis, Christopher : FM Bjelobrk, Igor
12 FM Canfell, Greg : WIM Moylan, Laura
13 Song, Raymond : FM Xie, George
14 FM Goldenberg, Igor : Obst, James
15 Frame, Nigel : FM Humphrey, Jonathan

I had to alter the format from the site as it was fairly unmanageable, but these are as they are set out currently

Take care and God Bless, Macavity

jase
27-12-2005, 01:14 PM
Please note that until a drawing of lots takes place later today (Tuesday), pairings are provisional, as stated when you reach the page that links you to all pairings.

If you're in Brisbane, or anywhere else for that matter, and thinking of being a last minute entrant, I strongly encourage your participation.

I arrived to assist with the venue set-up this morning and everything is fantastic: a beautiful room, brand spanking new equipment, a spacious analysis room, great technical hardware and support, and a very thorough team of organisers and assistants.

For online specators, I have little doubt that this will be the most comprehesive and impressive coverage of an Australian tournament.

It appears that there will initially be 6 games broadcast, expanding to at least 8, and probably 10, after the first couple of rounds. We are running some tests on the digital boards later today in the hope of transmitting effectively from move 1, round 1.

I'll try and keep an eye out for your feedback on these forums, especially in the early phases.

arosar
09-01-2006, 08:47 PM
Blog updated with entry on photos!

Else, you can go straight to my flickr account: http://www.flickr.com/photos/closetgrandmaster/sets/1800331/

AR

firegoat7
09-01-2006, 10:41 PM
When will the final crosstables be posted?

cheers fg7

shaun
10-01-2006, 08:07 AM
I would like to congratulate the organising team for an excellent Australian Championships. The net coverage was terrific, with good DGT coverage and an up to date and informative website.
Also, congratulations to the winners in each of the events, especially Ian Rogers for winning another Australian title, and Angela Song for her fabulous win in the Junior Championship.

Spiny Norman
10-01-2006, 12:00 PM
Ditto that ... thanks to all concerned ... I spent many an enjoyable hour watching live games, trawling through the site looking at results, playing through games, etc.

Phil Bourke
10-01-2006, 12:09 PM
I'll have a third of that : ) or whatever it should be after seconding the motion.
Hearty congrats to the team that put together the web coverage. Outstanding effort, much appreciated.

pballard
10-01-2006, 01:25 PM
Ditto from me too. Web coverage was greatly appreciated.

eclectic
11-01-2006, 04:58 AM
was there ever meant to be a bulletin no 11 as it were to round things off and bring matters to a conclusion website wise?