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StakesIsHigh
26-04-2005, 01:07 AM
Ah another opininated Mexican junior. .

Where the hell did you pull that from? Seems a tad racist to me... what've Mexicans ever done to you eh?



I suspect he thinks my contribution is significantly greater than yours.


True, but I'm not some sort of Head Ratings Officer, am I? I'm a 15 year old. Do you expect me to have pushed Australian Chess forward?

Does the Prime Minister have the right to respond to complaints with, "I don't need to answer questions, because whatever you lowly slackers have done, I've done more."?

Lucky you're not in charge of anything more than ratings, eh?..

-Reubban

Garvinator
26-04-2005, 01:15 AM
Where the hell did you pull that from? Seems a tad racist to me... what've Mexicans ever done to you eh? do you know where that term mexicans comes from in THIS context? It has nothing to do with racism. Maybe you have race issues or believe everyone else is racist towards you? Interesting, 15 years old and bandying around the race card, i wonder where you learnt that.


Does the Prime Minister have the right to respond to complaints with, "I don't need to answer questions, because whatever you lowly slackers have done, I've done more."? actually i would think you would find that John Howard usually does respond like this regularly :whistle:


Lucky you're not in charge of anything more than ratings, eh?.. geez, lucky then Bill isnt the nswca president then :lol: ;)

StakesIsHigh
26-04-2005, 01:24 AM
hahaha... yeh, I found out what the term (Mexicans) meant 5 minutes after posting, so yeh, that argument is here for all to laugh at :P... {EDIT} or alternatively you could laugh at the fact that I'm editing a post at 1:45 AM... I really do need to do that latin. {/EDIT}

and with the NSWCA president thing... well, I'm not exactly going to bother researching it, so yeh, forgive me for getting more facts wrong :uhoh: . It was a pretty useless post actually :P. fun to type though.

Yeh.. that post of mine got rolled over quite badly, ah well..

Anyways, I'm off to study for a latin test tomorrow.... stupid Year 11 :doh: .

-Reubban

WhiteElephant
26-04-2005, 01:31 AM
hahaha... yeh, I found out what the term (Mexicans) meant 5 minutes after posting, so yeh, that argument is here for all to laugh at :P...

and with the NSWCA president thing... well, I'm not exactly going to bother researching it, so yeh, forgive me for getting more facts wrong :uhoh: . It was a pretty useless post actually :P. fun to type though.

Yeh.. that post of mine got rolled over quite badly, ah well..

Anyways, I'm off to study for a latin test tomorrow.... stupid Year 11 :doh: .

-Reubban

:clap: It is refreshing to see someone admit a mistake with grace and humour.

Maybe some of the old crusties can learn a thing or two from the juniors.

Spiny Norman
26-04-2005, 08:21 AM
If you want to be taken seriously I think you are going to have to realise it isn't all about you. Hard at your age but it is a lesson which you will have to learn eventually.

That's one of the hardest life lessons for anyone to learn. I know plenty of adults (in age) who still haven't learned it. They spend their whole lives being completely self-absorbed, lacking empathy, and unprepared to offer grace to others.

P.S. So I think we can all offer one another a little grace ... ;)

Rincewind
26-04-2005, 08:42 AM
That's one of the hardest life lessons for anyone to learn. I know plenty of adults (in age) who still haven't learned it. They spend their whole lives being completely self-absorbed, lacking empathy, and unprepared to offer grace to others.

P.S. So I think we can all offer one another a little grace ... ;)

Point taken.

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 03:26 PM
Dear StakesIsHigh,

I admire your pluck. I respect the fact that you stand up to that old goat Gletsos, but I must contest your claim, despite you admitting it was false.



Where the hell did you pull that from? Seems a tad racist to me... what've Mexicans ever done to you eh?

Mexico itself as an entity is a Nation/State. As such to be Mexican, is to be confirmed with the rights of a citizen within its geo/political borders (sometimes outside). How this is a right, is of course contestable, but alas I digress.

Race has been genetically refuted as a myth. As such it has little to do with Nationality. You are spot on to call the words 'discriminatory' , but to suggest it is based on race is wrong. It is actually based on nationalistic paranoia.

cheers Fg7

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 04:01 PM
do you know where that term mexicans comes from in THIS context? It has nothing to do with racism.

I liked this part of GGs post it shows good maturity.





It is refreshing to see someone admit a mistake with grace and humour.


Another top post! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Cheers Fg7

P.S whos grace and what has she done.

Recherché
26-04-2005, 07:02 PM
do you know where that term mexicans comes from in THIS context? It has nothing to do with racism.

I think you would be wise to look a little more closely at the origin of the term yourself, before making such a statement.

Victorians are described as Mexicans (or, sometimes, Double-Mexicans by Queenslanders) because they are geographically to the south of New South Wales (or Queensland), just as Mexico is geographically south of the United States.

However this comparison is not drawn simply because of the geographical similarities. The geographical similarities are the excuse, not the comparison being drawn. The comparison is with the relationship between Mexico and the US, and more specifically with the fact that Mexico is seen (or was seen, or is seen by some people) as inferior, backward, lesser than the United States, and also that Mexicans as a people are seen as lesser.

The comparison is a derogatory one, and yes, rascist.

Of course, as the New South Welsh on these forums use it, the term is not intended to be racist; nor is it usually derogatory. It is lighthearted, but nevertheless the original context remains, and if you're going to call on where the term comes from, you'd better be sure you know where that is.

Also, in this particular context, while Bill was not being rascist, he was being derogatory.


Maybe you have race issues or believe everyone else is racist towards you? Interesting, 15 years old and bandying around the race card, i wonder where you learnt that.

If someone is going to experience racism in Australia (and whether you'd like to admit it or not, Garvin, our country is still rife with it) then they'll almost certainly have experienced it by age 15.

I find the attitude implicit in your comments there pretty distasteful, actually; not that it's an uncommon one. (I'm not implying that it's a racist attitude, although it can work well in defending them).


Picking on spelling was a bit of a cheap shot. Then Bill countering with a totally unrelated post was also a cheap shot. I call it even.

The spelling of names is something considered to be pretty important by many people. I think you could argue it's more important than the spelling of regular words.

I always try to make an effort to spell names correctly, and I think in general other people should too, especially if they have a reference available.

Personally, I don't generally mind if someone spells my name wrong (and it happens often, only about a third of people get it right), but those who do mind have some pretty good reasons behind them.

Also there's a difference between someone who tries their best and gets it wrong and someone who gets it wrong due to lack of effort or care. (I'm making no judgements about which end of that spectrum Mischa might fit into.)


Arent you just some 14 year old kid who had the temerity to give Ian Rogers a verbal serve over in post http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=20798&postcount=112

Perhaps you should learn to show some respect to your elders and especially those whose contribution to Australian Chess is as significant as Ian's.

That's an incredibly ageist remark. I'm sure if a young person involved in Australian chess said something like "you're just some old stick-in-the-mud codger so your opinion doesn't count" to someone your age, they would be roundly condemned by all and sundry. The basic rights of young people are routinely trampled upon, and their opinions are just as routinely dismissed or discounted out of hand simply because of their age, and our society suffers for it. Any comment or opinion should always be judged on its merits, not simply on its source.

As for the comment in question, I'm not personally familiar with Ian's stance on the Buller issue, and even less familiar with the reasoning or motives that might be present behind the stance, however I do know that an opinion opposed to Ian's isn't necessarily an incorrect one, and nor is it necessarily inappropriate to criticise Ian's opinion. Unless you're assessing a chess position, Ian does not have any particular claim to superior knowledge or insight above and beyond everyone else involved.

The whole "respect for elders" line has always bothered me. Respect is something earned, not granted automatically due to age. There is a wide range of wisdom and folly across all age groups. Judging by age is just as stupid as judging by gender, and both are all too frequent.

Ian's opinion, as one who has been actively involved in the Australian Chess Community for a long time now, and who is also a very strong player, is indeed valuable. But valuable is not infallible, and nor is it comprehensive. It is not unexpected that his opinion on a particular issue might differ from that of a much weaker player, or someone not involved in chess admin, or a parent having to support multiple juniors (and/or other non-chess siblings), or indeed that of a junior player. This difference is not an automatic devaluing of either position - there are many shades of grey, and many perspectives on chess that deserve attention and support.

After all, a boat only goes forward with oars pushing it in two different directions, otherwise you just turn circles. ;)

(Yes, I spent more time on this post than was probably warranted, but it's good writing practise if nothing else.)

arosar
26-04-2005, 07:08 PM
To be honest what concerns me, was the post that Bill that linked to a post that Chris had written about Ian Rogers. While Amiel thought it was cheap, I disagree it shows a lack of respect for a true icon of Australian chess. I not claiming that Ian's never wrong, of course not, but his tone shows a lack of respect. I've disagreed with Ian on a few issues over the years, but 1. I've always expressed my concerns to him directly, and secondly I've done it poliltely becuase Ian deserves that respect.

As fg7 would say, "context". No one disagrees that the kid acted like a snotty brat, but what has that post re Ian Rogers got to do with any of this? See?

AR

arosar
26-04-2005, 07:10 PM
The spelling of names is something considered to be pretty important by many people. I think you could argue it's more important than the spelling of regular words.

I always try to make an effort to spell names correctly, and I think in general other people should too, especially if they have a reference available.

Personally, I don't generally mind if someone spells my name wrong (and it happens often, only about a third of people get it right), but those who do mind have some pretty good reasons behind them.

Also there's a difference between someone who tries their best and gets it wrong and someone who gets it wrong due to lack of effort or care. (I'm making no judgements about which end of that spectrum Mischa might fit into.)

All this analysis is not necessary. So Mrs Morris is clerically challenged. So the kid behaved badly. OK. Jesus!


The whole "respect for elders" line has always bothered me. Respect is something earned, not granted automatically due to age. There is a wide range of wisdom and folly across all age groups. Judging by age is just as stupid as judging by gender, and both are all too frequent.

Why does it bother you? Let me educate you then as the concept is important in my culture. No wonder in this country you've got stupid kids talking back to their teachers. No discipline. Where I come from these (to borrow kegless' term) f**ktards would get the belt; and if not that a bamboo stick! And how do we address the problem here? We come up with some ridiculous concept called ADD and pump chemicals into kids to shut them up. Awful!

To respect one's elders does not mean unquestioning deference. It means to be courteous. To acknowledge that having been alive longer than you, that they know more than you, experience more, felt more and so on. To understand that much of what you have today was borne out of your elders' efforts yesterday. Etc, etc, etc.

There's no pretentious analysis required. It is just the way of the world.

AR

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 07:20 PM
That's an incredibly ageist remark. I'm sure if a young person involved in Australian chess said something like "you're just some old stick-in-the-mud codger so your opinion doesn't count" to someone your age, they would be roundly condemned by all and sundry. The basic rights of young people are routinely trampled upon, and their opinions are just as routinely dismissed or discounted out of hand simply because of their age, and our society suffers for it. Any comment or opinion should always be judged on its merits, not simply on its source.



Hear that Bill, Your a tramp- ler.
cheers Fg7

Recherché
26-04-2005, 07:27 PM
All this analysis is not necessary. So Mrs Morris is clerically challenged. So the kid behaved badly. OK. Jesus!

AR

Necessary is a matter of perspective. Mostly what I wanted to comment upon was Bill's post, however in order to fully address the issue it was necessary to also comment on a few related posts from this thread.

Just be grateful I left off discussion of the assessment of chess positions, "lucky" wins, and Chris' right (or lack thereof) to be affronted by the implied position of Mischa's post. I really don't think it was the spelling he was most concerned about.

Garvinator
26-04-2005, 07:29 PM
at the risk of sending this thread off topic, i will reply to this here and see how far this discussion goes. If it continues off topic, can it be moved to the non chess section.


I think you would be wise to look a little more closely at the origin of the term yourself, before making such a statement.

Victorians are described as Mexicans (or, sometimes, Double-Mexicans by Queenslanders) because they are geographically to the south of New South Wales (or Queensland), just as Mexico is geographically south of the United States.

However this comparison is not drawn simply because of the geographical similarities. The geographical similarities are the excuse, not the comparison being drawn. The comparison is with the relationship between Mexico and the US, and more specifically with the fact that Mexico is seen (or was seen, or is seen by some people) as inferior, backward, lesser than the United States, and also that Mexicans as a people are seen as lesser.

The comparison is a derogatory one, and yes, rascist.

Of course, as the New South Welsh on these forums use it, the term is not intended to be racist; nor is it usually derogatory. It is lighthearted, but nevertheless the original context remains, and if you're going to call on where the term comes from, you'd better be sure you know where that is.

Also, in this particular context, while Bill was not being rascist, he was being derogatory.

Hello Recherche, I am well aware of the original meaning of the term 'mexicans' and its implications in USA terms.


(and whether you'd like to admit it or not, Garvin, our country is still rife with it- (racism (my edit) )

I am not going to even try and claim that Australia does not have racism issues and racist people from ALL races in Australia. I was careful to stress the context that the term mexican is used by Bill. I had taken it to only mean someone who is south of the murray. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have quite often argued that Australia is not even a multi cultural society, only a multi racial society. Of course many people disagree with this, but that is my opinion.

I am very careful about what terms i use to describe people and more careful when describing groups of people.

What I did have a problem with from Reubban's post was that the first claim was racism, nothing more, nothing less.

Recherché
26-04-2005, 07:49 PM
Why does it bother you? Let me educate you then as the concept is important in my culture. No wonder in this country you've got stupid kids talking back to their teachers. No discipline. Where I come from these (to borrow kegless' term) f**ktards would get the belt; and if not that a bamboo stick! And how do we address the problem here? We come up with some ridiculous concept called ADD and pump chemicals into kids to shut them up. Awful!
I think there is certainly problem with the over-prescribing of medication to keep children under control, however I disagree with the rest of your assertions.

The whole concept of children, and especially adolescents, as people to be bullied (or drugged) into submission and unquestioning obedience is one I find most disturbing. And that is what "discipline" means. After all, what is the classic disciplined environment? The army. And army disclipline is all about following orders without question.


To respect one's elders does not mean unquestioning deference.
Actually, that's exactly what it meant, back in the times the people who lament about "respecting one's elders" typically refer to when they explain how they think things should work.


It means to be courteous.
Courtesy is something due to everyone, not just those older than you. The youth has just as much right to expect it as the older person.


alive longer than you
This I would happily acknowledge.


that they know more than you
This is not necessarily the case. There is no direct link between age and knowledge on any particular subject. All it means is that a person has had more time in which to aquire knowledge - it does not mean that they actively used that time, nor that they aquired knowledge specific to whatever the situation happens to be.


experience more
Experience is a very loose term. It could mean just about anything. Relevant experience is what counts.


To understand that much of what you have today was borne out of your elders' efforts yesterday.
That applies equally to the terrible things as well as the good things. And it doesn't apply equally to all people in a certain age group. For every 60 year old who has made a great contribution to our society, there's likely another one who has caused great trouble and harm. Age (like sex) is too broad and indiscriminate a category to assess the worth of someone's opinions or experience.


There's no pretentious analysis required. It is just the way of the world.
No, it's conservative ideology. You're welcome to subscribe to it, but it's not the only point of view.

arosar
26-04-2005, 07:55 PM
Listen here mate. We all know you're very well educated. You might as well dot your posts with Harvard referencing while you're at it. The simple point is that you just have to respect your elders - that's it. It's very simple really. No fancy analysis required.

AR

Recherché
26-04-2005, 07:56 PM
What I did have a problem with from Reubban's post was that the first claim was racism, nothing more, nothing less.

If you go back and read carefully, he first asked where the term was from/what it meant. And then he said that it seemed racist. He didn't say "you're a rascist, Bill". And if you look at that comment without any prior knowledge of the usage of "mexican" to simply mean "victorian", then it does seem racist, especially since it was clearly a put-down.


I have quite often argued that Australia is not even a multi cultural society, only a multi racial society. Of course many people disagree with this, but that is my opinion.

I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw here.

Spiny Norman
26-04-2005, 08:00 PM
Listen here mate. We all know you're very well educated. You might as well dot your posts with Harvard referencing while you're at it. The simple point is that you just have to respect your elders - that's it. It's very simple really. No fancy analysis required.

Speaking as someone fast becoming an 'elder' myself, "Good for you AR", I'm with you on this one. :cool:

Garvinator
26-04-2005, 08:02 PM
that you just have to respect your elders - that's it. It's very simple really. No fancy analysis required.

AR
since when does anyone HAVE to respect your elders? I believe there are two kinds of respect, the first kind being the respect you give to anyone and the second kind of respect is the respect that has to be earnt and can also be lost.

I dont respect anyone in the second case based solely on their age, i give/earn respect based on what they say and even more importantly, their actions.

jenni
26-04-2005, 08:10 PM
To respect one's elders does not mean unquestioning deference. It means to be courteous. To acknowledge that having been alive longer than you, that they know more than you, experience more, felt more and so on. To understand that much of what you have today was borne out of your elders' efforts yesterday. Etc, etc, etc.

There's no pretentious analysis required. It is just the way of the world.

AR

Well done Amiel - it is that basic courtesy that we are losing today and the world is poorer without it.

arosar
26-04-2005, 08:12 PM
since when does anyone HAVE to respect your elders?

Look, that's a stupid question OK. Why don't you pose this question to Italians, Chinese, Greeks, Russians, the Latinos, etc, etc. Your culture does not understand this concept. I know this. No wonder you dump your parents in nursing homes you disrespectful bastards.

AR

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 08:14 PM
Listen here mate. We all know you're very well educated. You might as well dot your posts with Harvard referencing while you're at it. The simple point is that you just have to respect your elders - that's it. It's very simple really. No fancy analysis required.

AR

This is an interesting debate between R and AR. It is a literal cross- cultural smorgisboard of moral relativity.

Ok R, Is it possible that you are both correct? or are you both wrong? Or is AR right by expressing his values, even though you think he is wrong? don't we just have a classic conflict here?

Key Question? Is it possible to construct any meaning, let alone agreement between you two on this point? and, if you cannot agree are both interpretations valid?

Cheers Fg7

ursogr8
26-04-2005, 08:14 PM
I think you would be wise to look a little more closely at the origin of the term yourself, before making such a statement.

Victorians are described as Mexicans (or, sometimes, Double-Mexicans by Queenslanders) because they are geographically to the south of New South Wales (or Queensland), just as Mexico is geographically south of the United States.

However this comparison is not drawn simply because of the geographical similarities. The geographical similarities are the excuse, not the comparison being drawn. The comparison is with the relationship between Mexico and the US, and more specifically with the fact that Mexico is seen (or was seen, or is seen by some people) as inferior, backward, lesser than the United States, and also that Mexicans as a people are seen as lesser.

The comparison is a derogatory one, and yes, rascist.

Of course, as the New South Welsh on these forums use it, the term is not intended to be racist; nor is it usually derogatory. It is lighthearted, but nevertheless the original context remains, and if you're going to call on where the term comes from, you'd better be sure you know where that is.

Also, in this particular context, while Bill was not being rascist, he was being derogatory.



Rob

Bill is in no way rascist nor even derogatory in the use of this term. I don't often defend him...but on this one I will.


Mexican came into vogue a couple of years back when fg7 and I joined the board...........the bb had very little Victorian content then. It just meant....that place, south of NSW. Nothing more.

starter

Recherché
26-04-2005, 08:16 PM
We all know you're very well educated.
I wouldn't say that.


You might as well dot your posts with Harvard referencing while you're at it.
Actually, I prefer to use footnotes, the Harvard system is messy and destroys the flow of academic writing. ;)


The simple point is that you just have to respect your elders - that's it. It's very simple really. No fancy analysis required.
The point may be simple, but that doesn't make it right. As I explained, I disagree with you on this point.

arosar
26-04-2005, 08:17 PM
Ok R, Is it possible that you are both correct? or are you both wrong? Or is AR right by expressing his values, even though you think he is wrong? don't we just have a classic conflict here?

He is right in the analytical undergraduate sense.

AR

arosar
26-04-2005, 08:19 PM
Actually, I prefer to use footnotes, the Harvard system is messy and destroys the flow of academic writing. ;)

Endnotes are the best.

AR

Thunderspirit
26-04-2005, 08:20 PM
Look, that's a stupid question OK. Why don't you pose this question to Italians, Chinese, Greeks, Russians, the Latinos, etc, etc. Your culture does not understand this concept. I know this. No wonder you dump your parents in nursing homes you disrespectful bastards.

AR

Great words Amiel... this proves you have a good heart.... (Not that I didn't think that before! ;) )

Libby
26-04-2005, 08:21 PM
I think there is certainly problem with the over-prescribing of medication to keep children under control, however I disagree with the rest of your assertions.

The whole concept of children, and especially adolescents, as people to be bullied (or drugged) into submission and unquestioning obedience is one I find most disturbing. And that is what "discipline" means. After all, what is the classic disciplined environment? The army. And army disclipline is all about following orders without question.


Actually, that's exactly what it meant, back in the times the people who lament about "respecting one's elders" typically refer to when they explain how they think things should work.


Courtesy is something due to everyone, not just those older than you. The youth has just as much right to expect it as the older person.


This I would happily acknowledge.


This is not necessarily the case. There is no direct link between age and knowledge on any particular subject. All it means is that a person has had more time in which to aquire knowledge - it does not mean that they actively used that time, nor that they aquired knowledge specific to whatever the situation happens to be.


Experience is a very loose term. It could mean just about anything. Relevant experience is what counts.


That applies equally to the terrible things as well as the good things. And it doesn't apply equally to all people in a certain age group. For every 60 year old who has made a great contribution to our society, there's likely another one who has caused great trouble and harm. Age (like sex) is too broad and indiscriminate a category to assess the worth of someone's opinions or experience.


No, it's conservative ideology. You're welcome to subscribe to it, but it's not the only point of view.

:clap: :clap: (even if I am approaching 40!)

I went into the Public Service straight from Year 12 (if I'd had an offer 2 weeks later I would have been at Uni - still ponder that possible outcome :eek: )

I had sat the Clerical Selection test and was placed on an order of merit based on that result. So I started as a Clerk Class One with five other people - all of whom were paid between $3000 and $5000 per annum more than me. Because they were older.

I had a couple of difficulties with that idea, although one guy defended vigorously his right to get more money because he had all this age and experience to offer etc etc. To me, we had all sat the same test and came off the order of merit at the same time implying the same, or similar, results to one another and I really couldn't see why I should be paid less when we were all doing the same job. As it turned out, they were all Uni graduates, or partway through degrees, and didn't even have a area of study or work experience to claim themselves as better qualified than myself for the job. But still they got more money.

None of us had children but half of us - including me - were not living at home with parents. So I had similar, or greater, financial burdens to meet as all the others. But they got paid more because they were older.

I actually got promoted before any of them, and got off "age rates" because of that. I also learned not to include my date of birth on job applications because people perceived me as too young or too inexperienced for supervisory or management roles. If I didn't include my DOB, I was never asked about my age - just my relevant experience.

Bad behaviour is just that - bad behaviour. Doesn't matter what the age is but you always hope people will take age into account when they come up with an appropriate reaction to it.

Do we want the younger members of the chess fraternity to post here or just lurk here? Respect has to be a two way street, so point out to Chris (or anyone) that maybe he was a bit hot under the collar when he posted but don't start peddling the "respect your elders" twaddle because I'd imagine (if they lurk here more than they post) they've seen plenty of examples of bad "oldie" behaviour.

Spiny Norman
26-04-2005, 08:21 PM
Look, that's a stupid question OK. Why don't you pose this question to Italians, Chinese, Greeks, Russians, the Latinos, etc, etc. Your culture does not understand this concept. I know this. No wonder you dump your parents in nursing homes you disrespectful bastards.

I simply have to applaud AR ... :clap: ... spot on. It is a massive cultural difference that most of Western society ignores at its peril IMO. We are the poorer for it. We're just so damn superior here in the West and find it difficult to believe that anyone just might have more of a clue about it than we do.

Libby
26-04-2005, 08:30 PM
Look, that's a stupid question OK. Why don't you pose this question to Italians, Chinese, Greeks, Russians, the Latinos, etc, etc. Your culture does not understand this concept. I know this. No wonder you dump your parents in nursing homes you disrespectful bastards.

AR

I respect your cultural differences Amiel. I "dumped" my father in a nursing home thanks for that. Hmm - he had a brain tumour and my family spent more than 10 years coping with his physical & emotional decline at home.

And I travelled twice a week, almost an hour on the bus, with a toddler and a reflux baby (mothers will understand - I was frequently covered in vomit) to visit him in the nursing home. In the end he couldn't walk, talk, feed himself or do anything for himself. He needed special equipment to be lifted from the bed.

I couldn't quite measure up in the end, as a carer for him by this standard. But I respected him as my father and because he had been such a wonderful, caring person. It had nothing whatsoever to do with his age.

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 08:31 PM
Hello,

I believe it is only just that we put all these old people into institutions. These are after all the same generation of Golden Age people who put us into institutions. Whats the problem they get fed, its nice and clean, they hang out with their friends, whats the big deal?

Meanwhile, the young are forced to pay rent and live in an environment that is more polluted ever day. I say suffer.

cheers Fg7

Garvinator
26-04-2005, 08:34 PM
I respect your cultural differences Amiel. I "dumped" my father in a nursing home thanks for that. Hmm - he had a brain tumour and my family spent more than 10 years coping with his physical & emotional decline at home.

And I travelled twice a week, almost an hour on the bus, with a toddler and a reflux baby (mothers will understand - I was frequently covered in vomit) to visit him in the nursing home. In the end he couldn't walk, talk, feed himself or do anything for himself. He needed special equipment to be lifted from the bed.

I couldn't quite measure up in the end, as a carer for him by this standard. But I respected him as my father and because he had been such a wonderful, caring person. It had nothing whatsoever to do with his age.
sad to hear Libby, but as someone who has been in a similiar position, i do understand. I think it can be more cruel to have the family member or friend at home getting part time care from other family members that to get decent full time care in a nursing home. What I dont like is then that the family members dont visit the ill family member, especially when the ill family member is still able to recognise everyone around them and get 'something' out of the visit.

arosar
26-04-2005, 08:40 PM
I couldn't quite measure up in the end, as a carer for him by this standard. But I respected him as my father and because he had been such a wonderful, caring person. It had nothing whatsoever to do with his age.

Obviously if there is some medical reason for your parent(s) to be in a home or some other facility - then they cannot stay with you. But I am saying more than close physical proximity between parent and child. This instinct for kids to rid themselves of their parents is what angers me. It comes down to poor upbringing I reckon. Kids should look after their parents. It's that simple.

AR

Garvinator
26-04-2005, 08:40 PM
I think you're a bit too late with that one :P. I mean, wasn't this post supposed to be about the Vic Juniors? Seems as though you've all been successfully distracted. moderators can split threads.

Libby
26-04-2005, 08:42 PM
Obviously if there is some medical reason for your parent(s) to be in a home or some other facility - then they cannot stay with you. But I am saying more than close physical proximity between parent and child. This instinct for kids to rid themselves of their parents is what angers me. It comes down to poor upbringing I reckon. Kids should look after their parents. It's that simple.

AR

If it comes down to a poor upbringing - doesn't it become a case of "reap what you sow?"

eclectic
26-04-2005, 08:42 PM
moderators can split threads.

and the better moderators know how to prune offshoots or shut down long in the tooth threads completely

;)

eclectic

ps i better make this post relevant and say that i have so far not seen live nor played through one single vic junior 2005 game!!

:evil: :devious:

arosar
26-04-2005, 08:44 PM
How is what I said racist? I merely and incorrectly suggested that Bill was being racist. But how is suggesting that someone else is racist being racist yourself? :eh:

Racism. There's another concept that people flail about yet not really a clue what it is. The more we use it, the more we cheapen it.

AR

arosar
26-04-2005, 08:45 PM
If it comes down to a poor upbringing - doesn't it become a case of "reap what you sow?"

No!

AR

Recherché
26-04-2005, 08:51 PM
Well done Amiel - it is that basic courtesy that we are losing today and the world is poorer without it.

I think most people who meet me would consider me to be friendly and courteous (I am a little more blunt in debate, but that is a different context, with different "rules") - I make an effort at it. However my respect for someone and their opinion is still based on an assessment of the quality of that opinion. It's just critical thinking.

Lets take the example of Ray Martin. He's the host of a current affairs show, and I think once he was a journalist. He is older than me, and certainly has a lot of experience in his industry. However I know that I cannot trust most of what is presented, and tacitly endorsed, by him on his show. I know his show is driven by the need to get ratings. I know there is pandering to the prejudices of his target demographic. I know there is bias from the commercial interests that pay for his show to be produced, and so on. If I meet Ray Martin in the street I will more than likely be polite to him, but I would not take his opinion on any matter (save, perhaps, hairpieces) as an informed and reliable opinion, be it delivered to me in person, in his writings (if any), or via his television work.

There is an important distinction to be made between courtesy and obedience ('respect' is often used, basically, to mean obedience).


Look, that's a stupid question OK. Why don't you pose this question to Italians, Chinese, Greeks, Russians, the Latinos, etc, etc. Your culture does not understand this concept. I know this. No wonder you dump your parents in nursing homes you disrespectful bastards.
Conservative ideology is common (it was, after all, the default - the very concept of conservatism was created by the critique of its alleged flaws); that still does not make it unquestionable, nor automatically superior, to alternatives.

There doesn't have to be a link between being polite to and taking care of our elders (a worthy goal) and obeying them without question, or automatically assuming they are superior in any field by virtue simply of their age (a questionable assertion).


Ok R, Is it possible that you are both correct? or are you both wrong? Or is AR right by expressing his values, even though you think he is wrong? don't we just have a classic conflict here?
Naturally I believe my position is correct, or at least more correct, or more appropriate, or I would not be arguing it. It is, of course, possible that I am wrong.

AR has a right to express his values. They fact that they are his values, honestly expressed (I assume) doesn't automatically make them right, however. They are not right for me, and nor would I wish to live in a society that lived by them.

(I will sometimes argue a position I disagree with for the practise or for the fun of it, but when I do I make it clear that's what I'm doing.)


Key Question? Is it possible to construct any meaning, let alone agreement between you two on this point? and, if you cannot agree are both interpretations valid?
Clearly there is enough common ground that we can understand each other's points, even though we disagree. There is meaning there.

Validity is a tricky claim. A purely interpretive standpoint leaves you with no room to criticise anything, and I believe critical thinking is very important. There are attempts being made to reconcile positivism (loosely, the hardcore rational-scientific idea that everything is objective) with hermeneutics (interpretation; the idea that everything is basically subjective); that is something I am still learning about and investigating.

Recherché
26-04-2005, 08:53 PM
Bill is in no way rascist nor even derogatory in the use of this term.
I have never seen Bill use the term in a racist way, however...

"Ah another opininated Mexican junior."

...is clearly a derogatory phrase. Now you may argue that the within the phrase, the word is not derogatory, but this is an irrelevant point, because to know this you would have to be aware of both (a) the meaning of the term "Mexican" and the context of its usage on this forum, and (b) the history of Bill's use of the term.

Libby
26-04-2005, 08:54 PM
No!

AR

So you must respect your elders no matter what your upbringing?

Drunken, abusive, indifferent, selfish, neglectful, disinterested?

Or do we all have to earn just some of that respect, as we are none of us perfect?

Does the war criminal get off because he is now an old man? Is age - alone - enough?

I don't dispute that I hope my children will respect their parents, teachers and figures in positions of authority but I also hope these people will be deserving of respect - not just old enough to receive it unquestionably.

arosar
26-04-2005, 08:59 PM
Validity is a tricky claim. A purely interpretive standpoint leaves you with no room to criticise anything, and I believe critical thinking is very important. There are attempts being made to reconcile positivism (loosely, the hardcore rational-scientific idea that everything is objective) with hermaneutics (interpretation; the idea that everything is basically subjective); that is something I am still learning about and investigating.

Listen mate, I'm bloody cross with you right now for a coupla reasons.

Number 1. You're distracting me from Dancing with the Stars.

Number 2. It's hermeneutics.

Number 3. All of that is BS. You tell me how any of that helps you when your granny chases you down the road with a friggin' axe for bringing home the wrong sort of sheila?

AR

Libby
26-04-2005, 09:01 PM
Number 1. You're distracting me from Dancing with the Stars.



I trust you demonstrated your respect by voting for Derryn? ;)

arosar
26-04-2005, 09:01 PM
So you must respect your elders no matter what your upbringing?

Drunken, abusive, indifferent, selfish, neglectful, disinterested?

Or do we all have to earn just some of that respect, as we are none of us perfect?

Does the war criminal get off because he is now an old man? Is age - alone - enough?

I don't dispute that I hope my children will respect their parents, teachers and figures in positions of authority but I also hope these people will be deserving of respect - not just old enough to receive it unquestionably.

Look here. Listen to me OK.

You just don't bloody get it, alright Libby? That I am having to explain anything is proof.

As I said, it's just the way of the world. Period! No more story.

AR

Recherché
26-04-2005, 09:02 PM
This discussion could pretty easily be split into a new thread of its own, I think. And that would probably be a good idea, at least by next weekend when we'll need this thread for more results and subsequent discussion.


This instinct for kids to rid themselves of their parents is what angers me. Kids should look after their parents. It's that simple.

Broadly, I agree with this sentiment. There are of course - as with just about anything - exceptions. An abusive parent, for instance.

I don't think 'discipline' or obedience are the key to getting children to look after their parents, however. A childhood of physical punishment is not likely to engender feelings of charity once the power roles are reversed. Parents need to remember the old business adage: "be nice to the people you meet on the way up, because you'll meet them again on the way down".

There is unquestionably a lot of neglect and bad treatment of elderly parents by grown up children, but I'd say there's an equal amount of neglect and bad treatment of children and adolescents by their parents. Both are problems that need to be addressed. Perhaps they are two ends of the same problem.

Libby
26-04-2005, 09:03 PM
Look here. Listen to me OK.

You just don't bloody get it, alright Libby? That I am having to explain anything is proof.

As I said, it's just the way of the world. Period! No more story.

AR

I believe I may be your elder ....

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 09:04 PM
All of that is BS. You tell me how any of that helps you when your granny chases you down the road with a friggin' axe for bringing home the wrong sort of sheila?



LOL, Did this really happen?

Cheers Fg7

arosar
26-04-2005, 09:06 PM
I believe I may be your elder ....

Thank God for that!

AR

Libby
26-04-2005, 09:06 PM
LOL, Did this really happen?

Cheers Fg7

probably to antichrist, maybe more than once :owned:

Actually, it was probably her Nanna, rather than his

Libby
26-04-2005, 09:06 PM
Thank God for that!

AR

just reminding you to be respectful ...

Recherché
26-04-2005, 09:09 PM
Listen mate, I'm bloody cross with you right now for a coupla reasons.

Number 1. You're distracting me from Dancing with the Stars.

Number 2. It's hermeneutics.

Number 3. All of that is BS. You tell me how any of that helps you when your granny chases you down the road with a friggin' axe for bringing home the wrong sort of sheila?

1. This thread will still be here at 21:00, or tommorrow, or whenever you have the time and inclination to reply - you don't have to do it now, or even at all. :)

2. Yeah. Still, one typo in several rather long posts isn't bad. And weren't you one of the ones condemning people for picking out spelling errors?

3. I said myself that hermeneutics, especially in isolation, wasn't my cup of tea. Besides, my grandmother is rather more sedate than that, and tolerant, and I hope she'd be courteous (:P) to anyone I brought home.

Recherché
26-04-2005, 09:12 PM
Look here. Listen to me OK.

You just don't bloody get it, alright Libby? That I am having to explain anything is proof.

As I said, it's just the way of the world. Period! No more story.
Saying does not make it so. I could say that your were a golem constructed from jarlsberg cheese and animated by holy words 237 years ago. I could make the claim repeatedly and insist that it was so self-evident as to be unarguable. But that wouldn't make it true now, would it?


I believe I may be your elder ....
Zing! :D

Recherché
26-04-2005, 09:14 PM
ps i better make this post relevant and say that i have so far not seen live nor played through one single vic junior 2005 game!!

There's one or two in this thead. Page 3 or so, I think. :)

arosar
26-04-2005, 09:27 PM
Saying does not make it so.

Yes, that is a Bill Gletsos line, isn't it?

We are so not as educated as you to understand what you're saying. Do you understand what I'm saying? Forget the analysis. Can you manage that?

AR

Recherché
26-04-2005, 09:37 PM
Yes, that is a Bill Gletsos line, isn't it?
I don't know. It's a pretty common expression, I think, or at least something like it is.


We are so not as educated as you to understand what you're saying. Do you understand what I'm saying? Forget the analysis. Can you manage that?

What do you mean by analysis, exactly? If there's any part of any of my posts that isn't clear to you or to anyone else I'm happy to clarify it, on request. :)

I haven't used any particularly complicated or specialist language so far, except for my reply to firegoat, but that was a technical question in need of a technical reply, and was directly more or less solely at him. And I explained the more obscure terms anyway. I'd still be happy to clarify it further for anyone who asked me to.

jenni
26-04-2005, 10:25 PM
What do you mean by analysis, exactly? If there's any part of any of my posts that isn't clear to you or to anyone else I'm happy to clarify it, on request.

I haven't used any particularly complicated or specialist language so far, except for my reply to firegoat, but that was a technical question in need of a technical reply, and was directly more or less solely at him. And I explained the more obscure terms anyway. I'd still be happy to clarify it further for anyone who asked me to.



Now you're just being thick. Shall we try again?

AR
__________________
"Whenever there is any doubt - there is no doubt."

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 10:26 PM
probably to antichrist, maybe more than once :owned:

Actually, it was probably her Nanna, rather than his

Racial, National,generational, cultural and now gender differences.

Yes this thread has it all folks.

Cheers Fg7

jenni
26-04-2005, 10:28 PM
Now you're just being thick. Shall we try again?

Perhaps, but it's not a thick I have control over. I really don't know quite what you're asking of me, unless it's just to stop arguing with you and concede your point (which I won't do, unless you convince me it's correct).

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 10:29 PM
I haven't used any particularly complicated or specialist language so far, except for my reply to firegoat, but that was a technical question in need of a technical reply, and was directly more or less solely at him. And I explained the more obscure terms anyway. I'd still be happy to clarify it further for anyone who asked me to.

I may have missed this, which post was it?

Cheers Fg7

Recherché
26-04-2005, 10:32 PM
Hmm, it seems I missed a few posts...


Endnotes are the best.

Well, I see footnotes and endnotes as basically part of the same system. Just depends how many you're using, and how detailed they are. The more you have, and the more detail, the more appropriate endnotes become.

My uni uses the Harvard system. YUK.


He is right in the analytical undergraduate sense.

Missed this post. What other sense is there, aside from the aforementioned conservative ideology that I don't subscribe to?


"age rates"

Are "age rates" still around (apart from for under 18s)?


Do we want the younger members of the chess fraternity to post here or just lurk here? Respect has to be a two way street, so point out to Chris (or anyone) that maybe he was a bit hot under the collar when he posted but don't start peddling the "respect your elders" twaddle because I'd imagine (if they lurk here more than they post) they've seen plenty of examples of bad "oldie" behaviour.

Excellent point. :)

Recherché
26-04-2005, 10:36 PM
I simply have to applaud AR ... :clap: ... spot on. It is a massive cultural difference that most of Western society ignores at its peril IMO. We are the poorer for it. We're just so damn superior here in the West and find it difficult to believe that anyone just might have more of a clue about it than we do.

I think it's important to look critically at all the societies we encounter, including our own. The West's superiority complex is certainly present, but it does not follow that everything non-Western is rosy and fabulous, or even simply better.

For what it's worth, your argument there could just as easily be used to suggest the West abandon Christianity for, say, Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam.

Recherché
26-04-2005, 10:39 PM
General note:

There are two posts a little earlier in this thread that are posted by Jenni, and which may at first glance seem incongruous. Readers should take care to read the titles, as they are reposts of things written by Amiel and myself, respectively, in the thread that this one got split off from. :)


I may have missed this, which post was it?

The last two sections of post #39 in this thread.

firegoat7
26-04-2005, 10:48 PM
General note:

The last two sections of post #39 in this thread.

Mate. don't get me started on positivism. :hand:

Cheers Fg7

Recherché
26-04-2005, 11:09 PM
Mate. don't get me started on positivism. :hand:

Ha! I had decidedly positivistic leanings in my pre-teen years, but you'll be pleased to know I've since grown out of it (at least, I hope so!).

arosar
26-04-2005, 11:20 PM
I think it's important to look critically at all the societies we encounter, including our own. The West's superiority complex is certainly present, but it does not follow that everything non-Western is rosy and fabulous, or even simply better.

For what it's worth, your argument there could just as easily be used to suggest the West abandon Christianity for, say, Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam.

When you're done pontificating on critical thought, and thanks cos we have so no idea what it's all about, lemme ask you once and for all: do you respect your elders?

AR

Bill Gletsos
26-04-2005, 11:26 PM
Necessary is a matter of perspective. Mostly what I wanted to comment upon was Bill's post, however in order to fully address the issue it was necessary to also comment on a few related posts from this thread.You can say what you like.
He came across to use Liberaci's term like "a arrogant, snotty nosed brat" in his response to Rogers. His tone came across as disrespectful to Mischa and was totally unnecessary.
I saw both posts almost 10mths apart as being of a similar nature. They both showed disrepect to people who clearly didnt deserve it.
I put this lack of respect he showed Ian and Rowena down to his age.
After all that really was the only legitimate excuse.

Recherché
27-04-2005, 12:19 AM
You can say what you like.
He came across to use Liberaci's term like "a arrogant, snotty nosed brat" in his response to Rogers. His tone came across as disrespectful to Mischa and was totally unnecessary.
I saw both posts almost 10mths apart as being of a similar nature. They both showed disrepect to people who clearly didnt deserve it.
I put this lack of respect he showed Ian and Rowena down to his age.
After all that really was the only legitimate excuse.

His age is not a legitimate excuse for rudeness. For futher comment, reference my posts in the "Bitching about spelling..." thread - he wasn't particularly rude in either post if you read them carefully. You and Lee have grossly exaggerated his transgressions.

Rudeness isn't a legitimate excuse for rudeness either, Bill.

Recherché
27-04-2005, 12:23 AM
lemme ask you once and for all: do you respect your elders?

I can't give a yes or no answer to that question. It's like asking "do you like foodstuffs?". The answer is: "some of them; it depends."

There are a great many people older than me whom I respect. There are also a great many people older than me that I have no respect for (hello, Jerry Falwell!). A person's age is not one of the criteria I use for determining respect. Well, I'm always pretty impressed by anyone who manages to live past 100 years old, but that's something else. :D

firegoat7
27-04-2005, 12:31 AM
lemme ask you once and for all: do you respect your elders?

AR

Is this the correct context AR?

cheers Fg7

Bill Gletsos
27-04-2005, 12:39 AM
His age is not a legitimate excuse for rudeness. For futher comment, reference my posts in the "Bitching about spelling..." thread - he wasn't particularly rude in either post if you read them carefully. You and Lee have grossly exaggerated his transgressions.Thats just your opinion. Lee's and mine differ.
He was previously disrepectful to Rogers and his latest post was disrepectrful to Mischa.

Rudeness isn't a legitimate excuse for rudeness either, Bill.There was nothing rude as far as I am concerned with my initial post. He was a 14 year old kid who had the temerity to give Ian a serve.
There is also nothing rude about my saying he should learn to show respect to his elders. Showing respect to elders is just a sign of good manners.

Bill Gletsos
27-04-2005, 12:46 AM
I have never seen Bill use the term in a racist way, however...

"Ah another opininated Mexican junior."

...is clearly a derogatory phrase.Thats rubbish and just assumption on your part.
Its just a statement of what I have seen as an observable fact.
I've been posting on this and the old ACF baord far longer than you and I havent yet seen a Mexican junior post who wasnt opinionated.

firegoat7
27-04-2005, 12:46 AM
Dear Bill,

Shut up you moronic, goose, idiot, clown.

XXXOOO
Fg7

Bill Gletsos
27-04-2005, 12:49 AM
Dear Bill,

Shut up you moronic, goose, idiot, clown.

XXXOOO
Fg7The more I think you couldnt act a bigger fool, the more often you prove me wrong.

firegoat7
27-04-2005, 12:53 AM
Thats rubbish and just assumption on your part.
Its just a statement of what I have seen as an observable fact.


Please Gentleman this will not do. Where did you see those facts Bill? Did they have nice little colors? Did they just pop out and introduce themselves..."How are you Mr Gletsos, Im a fact" or did they poke you in the face and say "Gletsos what are you lookin at punk, aint ya seen a fact before?"

Cheers fg7

firegoat7
27-04-2005, 12:57 AM
The more I think you couldnt act a bigger fool, the more often you prove me wrong.

You surprise me, I didn't know you actually thought, I believed you were just a parrot. Amazing, learn something new everyday.

Cheers Fg7

Bill Gletsos
27-04-2005, 01:07 AM
I see fg7 that you are as big a waste of time as ever.

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 01:14 AM
If someone is going to experience racism in Australia (and whether you'd like to admit it or not, Garvin, our country is still rife with it) then they'll almost certainly have experienced it by age 15.

I think you need to get out of Australia and see what real racism is. In comparative terms, we are the least racist bunch I know when compared to the many European and North American countries in which I have lived and worked or stayed.

It is nice to see you concerned that we stay away from racism here but we have no problems here. Compared to the rest of the world Australia is a racial utopia.

Cheers

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 01:21 AM
To respect one's elders does not mean unquestioning deference. It means to be courteous. To acknowledge that having been alive longer than you, that they know more than you, experience more, felt more and so on.

So true Ameil. A relative of mine says as she gets older she realises more and more that she knows very little and is a bit of an ignorarmus, but say she was she was even more so the younger she was.

Trent Parker
27-04-2005, 01:21 AM
I actually have a basic respect respect for any mature person i meet. However I think that respect is something that can be lost. In my opinion, the older the person is the more respect i have for them. Also i think other things can add or take away respect. Eg.
I have very little respect for one of my grandfathers. He is a violent drunk and abused my grandmother when they were together (though i was only 1 when they split up), I haven't seen him in about 4-5 years. On the other hand I had lots of respect for My step-grandfather. He was a war veteran from WW2, kind, sharing and would be there at any time of day or night if needed. And he showed other people the respect that they deserve. I try to march with his medals every ANZAC day to show my respect even now after his death.

Heck, i had basic respect for a/c until i come accross the bulletin boards :D

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 01:31 AM
Age (like sex) is too broad and indiscriminate a category to assess the worth of someone's opinions or experience.

No it isnt. I dont ask a primary school child about how to spice it up in the bedroom and I don't expect "younger" people (like us) to be wise. In matters of fact and logic, young and old are on an even level, but on matters of board judgment, the oldies have the ability (wisedom, if you will) to assess things much more accurately.

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 01:41 AM
This is an interesting debate between R and AR. It is a literal cross- cultural smorgisboard of moral relativity.

Culture is an artifact and irrelevant to the question of respect for elders.

Therefore, the question is, "What is best for the species?" Since automatic respect for elders is a behaviour that has served the species very well (7 billion souls), it is a foolish culture that deliberately rejects the practise.

Cheers

firegoat7
27-04-2005, 01:48 AM
I see fg7 that you are as big a waste of time as ever.

I have not been formerly introduced to - ever. Who is ever and what makes you think that ever wastes time, ya damn tramp-ler

Cheers Fg7

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 01:53 AM
This instinct for kids to rid themselves of their parents is what angers me. It comes down to poor upbringing I reckon.

The fruit doesnt fall far from the tree. (Or is that racist ;) )

antichrist
27-04-2005, 01:54 AM
Heck, i had basic respect for a/c until i come accross the bulletin boards :D

Say whatever you like, you ran my comp for me so you will always be in the good books. ACtions speak louder than words
Don't call me A/C

WhiteElephant
27-04-2005, 01:57 AM
No it isnt. I dont ask a primary school child about how to spice it up in the bedroom and I don't expect "younger" people (like us) to be wise. In matters of fact and logic, young and old are on an even level, but on matters of board judgment, the oldies have the ability (wisedom, if you will) to assess things much more accurately.

Hi Duff,

I still haven't made up my mind on whether age does bring wisdom, but if this is so, then shouldn't older people be judged by a higher standard? They should be wise enough to refrain from being rude, amongst other things. Fair enough, junors can be opinionated and jump to premature conclusions, but then such behaviour in adults should be inexcusable. Unless there are some adults who just never learn.

W.E.

antichrist
27-04-2005, 02:11 AM
probably to antichrist, maybe more than once :owned:

Actually, it was probably her Nanna, rather than his

Don't get me started on the women on my life. All the boys know about the one who tried to do away with me - and why!

My elder sisters were expected to marry the Lebos-come-lately no-speaka-da-english just offa-the boata, but they ran away to Sydney and enrolled in uni instead. We were culturally isolated then for the next 20 years. No invites to weddings,parties, nothing! Even if we wanted to we could not have a Lebo wife. That isolation mostly continues until today.

My grandmother was the toughest meanest person around (to many people) and did I serve it back to her. The same I did to the religious brothers, the nuns, partly demolished a school, the relos, the list goes on. No wonder I ended up the Antichrist.

But what I have got to realise that in spite of many difficulties that I did not lose the love of life and joking that no one can take away. Straight-jacketists like BG and KB are just very late Johnny-come-latelies who may end up nasty old men loved by no one, el al LLoyd Fell.

And now sweet young girls offer me their seat in the train etc. and I think "What a wonderful world". If only they knew the devil inside... ha ha ha

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 02:15 AM
He was a 14 year old kid who had the temerity to give Ian a serve.
There is also nothing rude about my saying he should learn to show respect to his elders. Showing respect to elders is just a sign of good manners.

Bill, do you have kids? I ask this just so we can understand where you are coming from.

Cheers

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 02:24 AM
In my opinion, the older the person is the more respect i have for them. Also i think other things can add or take away respect.

For all the erudite pontifications so far posted, TCN has succinctly put the whole "respect for elder" debate into just two sentences. :clap:

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 02:31 AM
Fair enough, junors can be opinionated and jump to premature conclusions, but then such behaviour in adults should be inexcusable. Unless there are some adults who just never learn.


Yes, I agree that the phrase "At his age he ought to know better," is a legitimate criticism. However, I dont know about behavior being inexcusable. Perhaps just "less acceptable".

Cheers

Recherché
27-04-2005, 10:32 AM
No it isnt. I dont ask a primary school child about how to spice it up in the bedroom and I don't expect "younger" people (like us) to be wise.

Eh?! There's a reason a primary school child is not well informed about sex. Firstly, we don't really teach them anything about it, and secondly, they haven't reached puberty yet, so they aren't able to fully understand it anyway.

So that's a pretty stupid example. Or rather, it's an example of something that IS partially age based, when then things I was referring to aren't. If you instead exclude those who are not post-puberty then suddenly a very different picture emerges. Older people, in their 50s and 60s, are not more likely than people in their 20s and 30s to be able to give you good advice about spicing up your sex life by virtue of their age. If anything, their age would be a handicap, since they're more likely to be poorly educated on the subject.


In matters of fact and logic, young and old are on an even level, but on matters of board judgment, the oldies have the ability (wisedom, if you will) to assess things much more accurately.

Is that "broad judgement"?

If you meant "broad judgement", then:

There's no such thing. There is only specific judgement. Having good judgement about a chess position doesn't mean someone will have good judgement about growing oranges. Or even good judgement about a Go position. (Go is another "high skill" board game, popular mostly in Asia.)

Judgement can only ever be based on relevant learning and experience, and there is nothing about the age of a person that determines their relevant learning and experience on any given topic except in cases where such knowledge is dependant on biological age or characteristics.

The other exception is prior to full brain development. Obviously babies and young children don't think in the way adults or adolescents do. For instance we don't really have a proper sense of time until about age four or five.

arosar
27-04-2005, 10:33 AM
I can't give a yes or no answer to that question.

Just as I bloody thought. Utterly useless. Mate, don't think. Thinking's no good for you. Just answer. Problem with you is mate, you're too overeducated. Bloody hell. Yeah, that's it. I mean, you're like these fellas who, if you ask them, "is the tomato a fruit or a vegie?" - their eyes roll back, twiddle their thumbs and sit there like a stunned mullet. They gotta go and friggin read about it. Maybe Kant has something to say about it? Maybe Adorno? The Frankfurt School? Hello?? Just friggin answer pure and simple!

AR

Recherché
27-04-2005, 10:49 AM
Thats rubbish and just assumption on your part.
Its just a statement of what I have seen as an observable fact.
I've been posting on this and the old ACF baord far longer than you and I havent yet seen a Mexican junior post who wasnt opinionated.

Just because you think it's true doesn't mean it's not derogatory. Something can be derogatory and true. In Reubban's case (the guy you accused of being opinionated) I don't think there's really any evidence on this board either way.


I think you need to get out of Australia and see what real racism is. In comparative terms, we are the least racist bunch I know when compared to the many European and North American countries in which I have lived and worked or stayed.
So what, we should wait until we're one of the worst countries before we do anything about it?

Our human rights record is relatively better than China's, but we're still locking up children in detention centers, and there's still a big problem with aboriginal deaths in custody.


It is nice to see you concerned that we stay away from racism here but we have no problems here. Compared to the rest of the world Australia is a racial utopia.
While there are some places that are much worse, Australia is not significantly "ahead of the field". I don't believe that racism is really any lower here than in, say, Britain, or France, or Scandinavia.

I certainly don't believe things are good enough here in Australia.


Culture is an artifact and irrelevant to the question of respect for elders.
No, it really isn't. 'Respect for elders' is very much a cultural construct.


Therefore, the question is, "What is best for the species?"
You have to be very careful about making "what is best for the species" arguments. It's an extremely complicated topic. Moreover it lends itself to all sorts of nasty avenues, like killing off the elderly or intellectually disabled, or restricting breeding to people with "good genes".


Since automatic respect for elders is a behaviour that has served the species very well (7 billion souls), it is a foolish culture that deliberately rejects the practise.
What evidence do you have to suggest that "automatic respect for elders" is something that has significantly impacted the success of our species? And how are you measuring success? The agricultural, industrial and technological revolutions were all based on ideas than ran contrary to the "respect for elders" principle.

We've routinely murdered each other for as long as records and evidence go back. In fact, it's more universal than the idea of 'respect for elders'. Would you suggest that murdering each other is a positive behaviour that has served the species very well?


For all the erudite pontifications so far posted, TCN has succinctly put the whole "respect for elder" debate into just two sentences. :clap:
No, he hasn't. He's succinctly put his own opinion into just two sentences. It's a worthy contribution to the debate, but it's certainly not the whole thing.


Don't call me A/C
We'll call you Shirley, then?


Mate, don't think. Thinking's no good for you.
I don't agree. Thinking is good for everyone. :)


I mean, you're like these fellas who, if you ask them, "is the tomato a fruit or a vegie?" - their eyes roll back, twiddle their thumbs and sit there like a stunned mullet.
A tomato is a fruit. ;)


They gotta go and friggin read about it. Maybe Kant has something to say about it? Maybe Adorno? The Frankfurt School? Hello?? Just friggin answer pure and simple!
I will always answer if I think I know the answer. Otherwise I'll say either "I don't know", if I don't, or "that question makes no sense", if it doesn't.

arosar
27-04-2005, 11:08 AM
I will always answer if I think I know the answer. Otherwise I'll say either "I don't know", if I don't, or "that question makes no sense", if it doesn't.

I can see you're an intellectual wannabe. You're the kind of bloke who reduce 'love' to a concept and proceed to analyse it. Just bloody useless.

AR

Libby
27-04-2005, 11:45 AM
If only we could get Alan (Jones) & Ray (Hadley) & John (Laws) here we could sort this out double-quick. Life's so much better when the answer is always in the black or always in the white and we can just slag-off all those hippie, elitist over-educated, lesbian, whale-loving bleeding hearts. :P

Quite enjoying reading as people debate their case actually. Proper debate is interesting (and refreshing).

firegoat7
27-04-2005, 12:15 PM
Culture is an artifact and irrelevant to the question of respect for elders.

Therefore, the question is, "What is best for the species?" Since automatic respect for elders is a behaviour that has served the species very well (7 billion souls), it is a foolish culture that deliberately rejects the practise.

Cheers

This analysis of culture is to simple. Culture is not just an artifact. It is many things it is a mental space in your head , learned patterns of behaviour and positional/locational space into which you are born, amongst other things.

Therefore the question is not one of "What is best for the species", the question is one of "What works for a group of people". To say anything else suggests that we are all the same, one big homogenised culture. This is clearly false and easily refutable.

'Automatic respect for elders is a behaviour that has served the species very well' - this statement is a load of codswallop. Some of the greatest cultural supressions have occured because of the very opposite. Religion, gender, racism, class, war, environmental disaster, land use etc Almost all these categories have, at one stage listenend to wise old leaders, who have simply been wrong. Importantly, these leaders often are placed in positions of power because of age.

Consider the last Pope. This dope actually preached non-contraception in an age where HIV exists. Why anybody would ever listen to an aging old fart with Parkinsons disease is beyond my comprehension. Completely out of touch with reality (a point labored upon the pope by third world Catholic religous leaders), this symbollic idiot preaches to his flock of sheep (baaa,baaa), who simply follow allowing by rationalising the irrational as being in the best interest of a mythical greater good.

Still it shows you how respecting your elders can be an absolute disaster.

What it also shows is that cultural practices change, they are not static. Often when human cultural practises have changed their is a conservative leader acting as a representative figure head for a mass of people, who is desperate to stamp his authority and power on a social issue, which effects his (sic) people. A power struggle ensures in which the true (laughable) culture coerces the other.


The fact that aging makes you conservative is also obvious, and that dosen't mean good. Often it means frightenend or scared. Too old to understand that the world has changed and its not like the romantic mental spaces inside your brain that you remember from growing up.

It is not a 'foolish culture that deliberately rejects the practise' it is a different culture, one based on the cult of individuality, rationality and efficiency. Look around you, the same old people who made this culture are the ones whinging about its ramifications. Send the old people to their retirement homes, your doing them a favor. If they really cared they wouldn't have thought it was a good idea in the first place.

Have a real good look at your society, individualism is everywhere: child care, schools, work, entertainment, shopping, choice, housing. Family values and individualism are at odds with each other, nothing more then lip service in todays day and age. The family lost that battle a long time ago 65% divorce rates are testimony to to these realities. Welcome to 'Western' modernity.

Cheers Fg7

ursogr8
27-04-2005, 12:34 PM
If only we could get Alan (Jones) & Ray (Hadley) & John (Laws) here we could sort this out double-quick.

Melbourne has not been lucky enough to attract one of these. But we did test-drive Stan Z, until the metric on ratings halved.

How are you btw Libby.
I look forward to your posts.


respectfully yours,
starter

Libby
27-04-2005, 12:40 PM
Hi Starter

I'm looking for answers. So I'm watching Dr Phil's take on "Real-Life Desperate Housewives."

I'll get back to you shortly, Problems are solved within the hour.

Libby

arosar
27-04-2005, 12:58 PM
Ray Hadley? There's another disrespectful idiot Not to mention, hypocritical bastard. Did you see last Monday's MediaWatch? I mean, you just don't talk to a minister in that way. You can disagree with the minister's policies but understand that they must be accorded respect.

AR

Libby
27-04-2005, 01:05 PM
Media Watch? No , I was listening to that Robinson Bros song instead - you know, the one with the little girl singing "twinkle, twinkle" at the end :lol:

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 03:05 PM
So what, we should wait until we're one of the worst countries before we do anything about it? Not at all, Rob. We should keep an eye on it. Most of it is "flash in the pan" stuff. If the flash ignites the curtains put it out. Screaming "RACISM" has a touch of a boy calling wolf.


Our human rights record is relatively better than China's, but we're still locking up children in detention centers, and there's still a big problem with aboriginal deaths in custody.


The Detention Centre blemish is unfortunately a pathetic nothing in comparison to the thousand+ of neglected and abused children who show up at our local hospital services every year. Multiply that by about one hundred hospitals and centres and you should acknowledge that in both quantity and quality, our underclass and dysfunctional families make your "RACISM" call look like a mouse to a T.rex

Perspective, Rob, perspective






While there are some places that are much worse, Australia is not significantly "ahead of the field". I don't believe that racism is really any lower here than in, say, Britain, or France, or Scandinavia.

I certainly don't believe things are good enough here in Australia.

I must repeat. Go there, live there. There is nothing quite like getting you nose out of the literature and sticking it into the actually subject. When you do, you will understand why I am urging you to go and experience the world.




No, it really isn't. 'Respect for elders' is very much a cultural construct.



No, it is equally an instinct.[Would you like me to argue this "instinct" point?] The instinct is greatest before puberty, and declines with age and experience.





You have to be very careful about making "what is best for the species" arguments. It's an extremely complicated topic. Moreover it lends itself to all sorts of nasty avenues, like killing off the elderly or intellectually disabled, or restricting breeding to people with "good genes". I, me, myself, do not have to be careful at all. I am, at this time, relatively comfortable with knowing where the line gets crossed.



What evidence do you have to suggest that "automatic respect for elders" is something that has significantly impacted the success of our species? The success of H.sapiens relies entirely on our big brain. what that brain does for two decades is learn (shaping of neuronal architecture) and then mylonate the connections into place. The automatic behavior of infants, then toddlers, then children, then prepubescents, then youth to relentlessly observe and copy, any older individual. Do you want chapter and verse on the well established truth of this phenomena? Without this process, we go extinct. "Respect your elders" is merely a shorthand way of saying watch-listen-learn.
And how are you measuring success? There are only two measures of success.
1. Biological i.e. numbers/biomass
2. The greatest happiness for the greatest number.
The agricultural, industrial and technological revolutions were all based on ideas than ran contrary to the "respect for elders" principle.
This absolutely wrong. Sorry to be so blunt. revolutions are actually impossible without the communication of new ideas from one generation to the next. Revolution is only a quickened rate of novelty adoption. If the novelty is not passed on, reversion to the previous state occurs.

We've routinely murdered each other for as long as records and evidence go back. In fact, it's more universal than the idea of 'respect for elders'. Would you suggest that murdering each other is a positive behavior that has served the species very well?

Murder/genocide certainly was a big positive for the evolution of ever greater intellect in H.sapien. As it is for other species in intra-species competition. (Smarten up or you lose your life and your wife.) However, murder/genocide is not conducive to either definition of "success" [defined above] in our currently interconnected and highly specialised groups.

Cheers

PS, I must add that I do not support Bill and Lee in their positions on NOTORIOUS, but not because of the arguments you are using are using. I dont support them because a little cheekiness in a young person is not worth getting steamed up over. It is normal human behaviour.

jenni
27-04-2005, 03:25 PM
I think you need to get out of Australia and see what real racism is. In comparative terms, we are the least racist bunch I know when compared to the many European and North American countries in which I have lived and worked or stayed.

It is nice to see you concerned that we stay away from racism here but we have no problems here. Compared to the rest of the world Australia is a racial utopia.

Cheers

Totally agree with this. Having fled to Australia at the age of 24 with all my worldly goods on my back, I have always loved Australia. It is not perfect, but compared to what I have seen it is a paradise. (mind you that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be on guard and try to improve).

It might have a lot of racist attitudes but they don't get put into practise that much, not compared to other countries, where racism is endemic and entrenched.

I was very amused when first arriving in Australia (well not quite first - I lived in the Cross initially, as it seemed a very convenient and cheap place to live, but eventually I worked out it wasn't the most salubrious place - particualarly after the cops broke into my rooms looking for some person who had obviously lived there just before me.. :) ). Anyway after that I moved way out West to a little place called Werrington, which was as cheap and safer. I got very friendly with the lady who looked after the station and she used to confide in me how difficult it was with all the "New Australians" arriving in the country. This bemused me for some time, as I was as New as you could get, and she didn't seem to have a problem with me. :)

arosar
27-04-2005, 03:33 PM
I must repeat. Go there, live there. There is nothing quite like getting you nose out of the literature and sticking it into the actually subject. When you do, you will understand why I am urging you to go and experience the world.

Too bloody right mate. I mean, he's very clever this fella - well educated and all. But read all his sh*t again. It's all just stuff he's read about this and that.

You ask him if he respects his elders and the first thing he does is think about the meaning of "respect". The rest of us just have to live it. Ya see what I'm saying?

All in all, he's got no friggin' clue. And about this racism business. It's always Aussies yappin' on about it. Bored middle class types. Ya know?

AR

arosar
27-04-2005, 03:43 PM
I was very amused when first arriving in Australia . . .

I tell youse what amused me first time I come here right. We're driving around, ya know, exploring the place. This was around Regents Park area. You know what I noticed? People disappeared off the bloody streets at sundown! I didn't get it.

And the other thing? What's with the friggin yellow light bulbs? I thought, FMD, in my beloved RP we use flourescent lights. I never figured this one out.

AR

Recherché
27-04-2005, 04:48 PM
And the other thing? What's with the friggin yellow light bulbs? I thought, FMD, in my beloved RP we use flourescent lights. I never figured this one out.
They're not incandescent bulbs, they're sodium lamps. They are used for streetlighting because they use less power than other forms of lighting. You may have noticed we also see better by sodium lamps than by flourescent street lights. This is because our eyes are particularly sensitive to the colour of the light produced.

Recherché
27-04-2005, 04:49 PM
I can see you're an intellectual wannabe. You're the kind of bloke who reduce 'love' to a concept and proceed to analyse it. Just bloody useless.
Your assessment of me here is not at all accurate. :)


The Detention Centre blemish is unfortunately a pathetic nothing in comparison to the thousand+ of neglected and abused children who show up at our local hospital services every year. Multiply that by about one hundred hospitals and centres and you should acknowledge that in both quantity and quality, our underclass and dysfunctional families make your "RACISM" call look like a mouse to a T.rex

Perspective, Rob, perspective

Why is it that when you call attention to a problem, suddenly people berate you for not calling attention to all the other problems? I said racism was rife, and I said that was a problem; I didn't make any statements about the significance of this problem in relation to any other problems.

There are a great many problems in every society on this planet. Many of them are extremely difficult to solve, but that doesn't mean it's worth trying.

The topic was racism, so I commented on racism. If the topic was neglected and abused children, I would have commented on that. (In fact I did happen to mention it earlier in this debate.)


I must repeat. Go there, live there. There is nothing quite like getting you nose out of the literature and sticking it into the actually subject. When you do, you will understand why I am urging you to go and experience the world.

Why are you assuming I haven't? My opinions on racism are mostly built on personal experience, not anything I've read. I've travelled overseas when I was younger, but I can't afford it now.


The success of H.sapiens relies entirely on our big brain. what that brain does for two decades is learn (shaping of neuronal architecture) and then mylonate the connections into place. The automatic behavior of infants, then toddlers, then children, then prepubescents, then youth to relentlessly observe and copy, any older individual.

(It's not just older individuals people copy. Any parent can tell you that peer groups have a lot of influence over their child's behaviour as well.)

I think I may have hit upon the fundamental point of disagreement and/or misunderstanding here.

The ability (perhaps "instinct"; I'm not qualified to say) to learn, copy, and to pass on knowledge, is indeed fundamental to the success of humans as a species.

But that instinct is not "respect your elders". It's something completely different. "Respect your elders" is simply the idea that children, adolescents and young people should be deferential and obedient to those older than them. As an idea I think it's negative and harmful, in a mild way. There are many good reasons for respecting someone or their judgement or opinion about something, but except in certain very specialized cases, simple age is not one of them.

Recherché
27-04-2005, 04:58 PM
Too bloody right mate. I mean, he's very clever this fella - well educated and all. But read all his sh*t again. It's all just stuff he's read about this and that.

None of my opinions outlined here have really been based on book learning, with the exception of the hermeneutics/positivism stuff I discussed very briefly with Firegoat. My educational background is mostly in technology and science.

ursogr8
27-04-2005, 05:19 PM
I had noticed that also. Obviously Chris spent more effort on reading Micha's post than on reading the events round by round draws or crosstable or he would have no doubt informed the arbiter of the spelling mistake by now.

I believe the family prefer the first name Christopher, which Bill might have noticed from the BH Championship cross-table or the VIC Junior round pairings.....by now.


I note his name is spelt correctly on the ACF master file therefore it would seem the organisers did not import from the ACF master.


This input is done by a respected elder Club member who recently won two bronze medals at the recent Seniors swimming championships in Hobart. His equanimity is probably sound enough not to be disturbed by this Australia-wide revelation of a spelling error when he is pinch-hitting a job due to the absence of our Club computer specialist.


I really dont know why people do this as it only adds work for the State Ratings Officers as they have to then manually input the player id numbers.


I have PMd you Bill that we have caused no additional work to Milic, and our reasons for implementing this solution.


I have resisted the temptation to dredge up an irrelevant post of yours from the past that might reflect on your temerity to draw attention to small deficiencies in the volunteer work by our senior members.

starter

arosar
27-04-2005, 05:29 PM
As an idea I think it's negative and harmful...

I know you're kind. You see a bad thing in anything and everything. That's what happens when you think too hard. See mate, as far as you're concerned, all these other wonderful cultures that believe in 'respect for elders' are suffering from some form of neurosis.

Look, you can't even answer a simple question. Your analysis has completely paralysed you.

As I asked you yesterday, how's all your fancy talk gonna bloody help you if your granny chases you across town with an axe cos you brought home the wrong sort of sheila?

Answer that one.

AR

Bill Gletsos
27-04-2005, 05:36 PM
This input is done by a respected elder Club member who recently won two bronze medals at the recent Seniors swimming championships in Hobart. His equanimity is probably sound enough not to be disturbed by this Australia-wide revelation of a spelling error when he is pinch-hitting a job due to the absence of our Club computer specialist.It is good you got someone to pinch hit for you but I find it surprising to hear that in a club your size you apparently only have one "computer specilaist" who is familiar with importing names in SP.
If so surely that is a organisational deficiency that neeeds to be rectified for the future. After all you dont want all your eggs in one basket.

I have resisted the temptation to dredge up an irrelevant post of yours from the past that might reflect on your temerity to draw attention to small deficiencies in the volunteer work by our senior members.Wouldnt worry me one way or the other what you dredge up.

antichrist
27-04-2005, 06:03 PM
And the other thing? What's with the friggin yellow light bulbs? I thought, FMD, in my beloved RP we use flourescent lights. I never figured this one out.

AR

They used flouro over there because of brown outs. If you are fortunate to get them going about 3pm when there is sufficent electricity to start them before everyone else does they will stay bright all night, i.e., if some stupid ruddy foreigners like myself do not drop my guard and accidently turn them off, then they are in the dark until the next morning amid cursing me.

Those yellow ones need more power to stay bright and during low periods provide almost no light. A TV if turned on early will also operate all night okay.

When a brown out occurs, in the dark you must run around like hell to pull all the plugs out before a power surge begins burning everything out. So nothing is ever placed in front of power points.

Spiny Norman
27-04-2005, 06:53 PM
pinch-hitting a job due to the absence of our Club computer specialist

Time to write up another procedure starter! I'm away next week and have to write up half a dozen at least so that the club can run "properly" without stuffing up the paperwork, etc.

Duff McKagan
27-04-2005, 08:47 PM
But that instinct is not "respect your elders". It's something completely different. "Respect your elders" is simply the idea that children, adolescents and young people should be deferential and obedient to those older than them. As an idea I think it's negative and harmful, in a mild way.

Yes, RYE is command to defer to and obey the previous generation. RYE is not meant to be an absolute rule. It is merely a very good guide to how must behave if we are going to be represented in the generation to follow. If RYE is to be abandoned by some individual or group as a modus operandi, they had better have a compelling reason to do so and a sunset clause to get back to it in the not too distant future.

Therefore, I must fully disagree with your statement that RYE is "negative and harmful, in a mild way." Given our very nature, RYE is certainly likely positive and protective in a general way.

Recherché
28-04-2005, 10:24 AM
I know you're kind.
Yep, I am. ;)


You see a bad thing in anything and everything.
On the contrary, I am positive and optimistic. :)


Look, you can't even answer a simple question. Your analysis has completely paralysed you.
I answered your question; I even answered it simply. The fact it wasn't the answer you wanted isn't my problem. Some questions just don't have a yes or no answer. In fact, most questions don't.


As I asked you yesterday, how's all your fancy talk gonna bloody help you if your granny chases you across town with an axe cos you brought home the wrong sort of sheila?
I already made it clear that this was not a realistic scenario. And personally I'd have no time for hypothetical family members who would attack me (with an axe or otherwise) for bringing the wrong "sort" of person home.

arosar
28-04-2005, 01:30 PM
I already made it clear that this was not a realistic scenario. And personally I'd have no time for hypothetical family members who would attack me (with an axe or otherwise) for bringing the wrong "sort" of person home.

I do not question the theoretical correctness of everything you're spouting. But your fancy talk has no application in the contours of our day-to-day existence.

Not a realistic scenario you say? Don't be ignorant.

AR

rob
29-04-2005, 03:25 PM
But your fancy talk has no application in the contours of our day-to-day existence.
My good fellow, I would be most esteemed if you would do me the honour of explaining why.



Not a realistic scenario you say? Don't be ignorant.

AR
The only part of Australia that I have lived in is WA and for some strange reason we don't seem to get all these elderly ladies chasing us about with axes over here.

arosar
29-04-2005, 04:33 PM
My good fellow, I would be most esteemed if you would do me the honour of explaining why.

But that's the thing mate, there is no why.

This is the problem with some of youse blokes. And here I get to use my favourite phrase - taught to me by an Iranian. As soon as you're confronted with the unfamiliar - it's like you're a bloody fly trapped in a mist of a fart! First thing you do is grab the nearest 'ism' within reach of a long polysyllabic bulls**t.


The only part of Australia that I have lived in is WA and for some strange reason we don't seem to get all these elderly ladies chasing us about with axes over here.

Mate, ever seen a sheila chased by a drunken cow?

AR