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View Full Version : Piano or violin more important Poll



antichrist
19-03-2005, 01:20 PM
When listen to classical sometimes I resent the intrusion of the violins in a beuatiful piano piece. I know maybe the pianos are only accompanying the violins or vice versa?
And why don't they have a number of pianos all playing together, I have been told it is because there is insufficient room for the pianos. What a pathetic excuse I thought.
So have your say.

It is a confidental poll, multiply voting is allowed, and any suggestions for improving the poll are welcome.

Rincewind
19-03-2005, 01:48 PM
So have your say.

My say is that this is one of the most ridiculous polls I have ever seen. It is almost as if you and Dave are going head-to-head in a Stupidest Poll of 2005 competition. This is a good effort but I have to inform you that Dave is still streets ahead. I'm afraid you'll need to raise the bar a few more notches if you want to make the cut for the next stage of the competition.

Alan Shore
19-03-2005, 04:30 PM
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks12.jpg

JGB
19-03-2005, 04:33 PM
right on the money!!!!

ElevatorEscapee
19-03-2005, 04:35 PM
At the risk of contradicting a fellow Discworld fan, my say it that this is an interesting topic.

Whilst it isn't traditional in music to hear multiple pianos in a piece, it is through such experimentation that music (and indeed art, science and perhaps even chess!) advances.

The modern piano, as we know it, has only been around for a few hundred years, evolving from experimentation from the clavicord and harpsicord.

Cristofori's first pianoforte consisting of four octaves was first built in the early 1700s. The piano was still evolving during Beethoven's time, with the keyboard being extended and the damper and soft pedals being added.

This means that many of the famous classical composers were unaware of the versatility and potential of the instrument they were writing for, as they were writing for a different instrument than we know today.

Of course, the violin has its own history, evolving from different instruments, with some suggesting the early 1500s as the date for the creation of the modern day violin. (Of course this casts doubt on the famous saying of "Nero fiddles while Rome burns" ... if violins (fiddles) weren't invented in Roman times, then exactly what was he fiddling with!? ;) :lol: )

Whilst continued experimentation in the design of musical instruments has lead to the evolution of modern day instruments (such as the synthesizer, electric violin, and electric guitar), it is the experimentation of combining the different sounds that these instruments can make, (not excluding the human voice!), that leads to new sounds and new styles of music.

Whilst antichrist's idea of a poll questioning the community about the possiblity of combining multiple pianos in a singular musical piece may initially seem "stupid", please bear in mind that recently voted the most 'influential work of modern art' was a sculpture called "Fountain".

"Fountain" was a ready made porcelain urinal with the name "R.Mutt" scrawled on the side and was submitted to a New York art exhibition in 1917 by famous French artist (and chess player!) Marcel Duchamp. :lol:

According to BBC News, art expert Simon Wilson said of Fountain, "...it reflects the dynamic nature of art today and the idea that the creative process that goes into a work of art is the most important thing..." :)

In answer to the original question posed by antichrist, I believe that in a piece, a composer should endeavour to make musical instruments work in harmony with one another, however, this does not necessarily preclude experimentation. As musical instruments that tradition considers may not work well with one another, may be able to combine in a complimentary fashion. :)

Now that's what I call, "Music with rocks in!" ;)

Rincewind
19-03-2005, 04:46 PM
An interesting exposee of possible issues in the area of the history and development of mustical instruments and instumentation of music. However, none of these issues are intrinsic to AC's poll as posted.

Or to put it another way: after considering the various points you raise, which of the 4 options provided by the pollster do you feel inclined to choose?

ElevatorEscapee
19-03-2005, 05:07 PM
Hi Rincewind,

I chose the option that Piano and violin should work in harmony with one another. (I think that musical instruments work best when in harmony with one another, as indeed do chess pieces. ;) )

However, I do not believe that this should preclude experimentation of various instruments not traditionally known to work in harmony together, such as two, three or even twelve pianos. Of course, how one defines harmony in musical compositions is to an extent subjective (some people may enjoy a piece, others loathe it). :)

The interesting thing about polls (or even political elections!) is that there is not necessarily one choice that represents what you believe may be an option that best reflects your opinion. Therefore, one is either forced to vote for the perceived lesser of evils, or abstain from voting altogether. :D

antichrist
19-03-2005, 05:49 PM
ElevatorEscapee,
I appreciate your quality posts. A few in my family are in the piano industry (that is excellent players) but afraid I am not, though did learn a lot earlier. But unfortunately I can't get them into experimentation.

Before on this BB I was interesting in composing tunes to reflect a game of chess and I was virtually laughed off the BB. Though someone managed to find out on the internet that is being done in Europe.

I thought each piece would be represented by a few bars, with variations for the position of the board. Not even sure how it would work but I thought it could work. Well the experts are making it work.

Then hopefully, chess moves can be fed into the computer and out comes the tune. One then could play the tune whilst playing through the game again. Old famous games could be fed through.

Don't you sometimes just appreciate the purity of the piano without the intrusion of violins?

Denis_Jessop
19-03-2005, 05:59 PM
With the greatest respect to AC this poll is quite misconceived.

The only reason that a violin (or violins) "intrude" on a piano in classical music is because the composer made it so. If the result is not harmonious that is either because the composer did not intend it to be so or because he or she was a bad composer.

Very great music has been written for solo piano or for solo violin or for violin and piano etc and there is no point in trying to express a view of preference for any one over the others.

Moreover there has been a lot of music written for two pianos or piano four hands, especially in the 19th century. Sometimes this has later been orchestrated. Examples include the Brahms Hungarian Dances, the Dvorak Slavonic Dances, a sonata by Mozart (available in a performance on Sony by Murray Perahia and Radu Lupu which I think is one of the greatest performances of any music that I have ever heard) and many pieces by Schubert.

DJ

arosar
19-03-2005, 06:03 PM
If youse blokes reckon you know music, wait til the 1mingrandmaster comes in here. He's a connoisseur of such things and will surely educate you.

I don't like this kinda music meself. AC/DC does it for me. Not this bloody bourgoisie rubbish.

AR

ElevatorEscapee
19-03-2005, 06:29 PM
Thanks antichrist,

Oh, here's a tip told to me by a piano tuner for anyone with an upright piano in their house, keep it up against an inside wall, not an external wall. This helps minimize moisture intrusion and temperature variations which can effect the tuning of the strings.

When I was a kid, both my older sister and brother were 'forced' to learn the piano... and they didn't like it. That made me jealous because I wasn't given the opportunity to learn it, so I plugged away at the one at home, bashing out tunes by ear (as kids do).

Then in about 1980, I first heard Vangelis' "Chariots of Fire". He originally composed it on his multiple synthesizers (with synth strings, synth drumbeat and a synth horn calling at the start), but it somehow sounded better on the piano.

What seemed to make Vangelis' music so "haunting" was that he mainly used flats and sharps. I first learnt Chariots of Fire from sheet music, it was surprisingly simple. Then I picked up Vangelis' "Themes" tape, and found more of his wonderful music that transferred brilliantly to the piano if played in the same style: (eg the main title from "Missing", and "L'enfant").

Then I discovered that I could adapt other tunes to Vangelis' piano style, (such as the theme from "The Rose", and "On the Inside" popularized by the Australian TV show, "Prisoner").

Sadly, I am pretty much a hack at the piano, as I am with chess... but at least I can appreciate the beauty of harmony as I perceive it. :-)

PS Thank you too Denis, I haven't heard any of those arrangements, and look forward to experiencing them. One wonders what a 21st Century virtuoso may be able to produce given todays computerized enhancement technology. :D

antichrist
19-03-2005, 06:44 PM
My mother, when a little girl, managed to con her father into buying her a piano. He bad plenty of money but would not shout if a shark bit him. She conned him by playing, on the kitchen table, famous old Arabic songs played at weddings and funerals.

However, her brother died shortly after and the Lebo custom is that you don't turn on a light for 5 years afterwards, as it was a child. As she had to do chores in the arvo she only had the night. So by humming the tune she managed to play it. Anyway, by the time I was a youngster she only had to hear the tune on the radio and she could belt it out.

I have a sister who is a piano fanatic, she has two 9'6" (I think) Steinway grands from the Sydney Opera House, replaced the insides and had one painted white. She even went overseas to study further.

My boy is fantastic, finished 8 grades by age 11, achieving many higher distinctions. He plays beautifully.

Actually, I do have a new one near the ocean, and luckily it is near an interior wall. But it is getting plenty of salt air.

When I learnt in late sixties, I want to join my mates in a rock band and belt out "House of the Rising Sun", but my sister (a teacher) went off to Vietnam with UN to work in most dangerous middle to get the highest pay.

Changing subjects, the best singer must be Janis Joplin, have you heard a whole album of hers?

ElevatorEscapee
20-03-2005, 09:44 AM
Nice story antichrist.

I have no direct experience with singing so I have never really considered who I think the best singer of all time might be. :hmm: (My 13 year old niece has appeared in stage musicals and I think she sounds fantastic, however I may be biased in my opinion. ;) )

I haven't yet heard a whole albulm of Janis Joplin, something I must make a note to do. :)

antichrist
01-07-2006, 05:34 PM
Just as my whinge about violins intruding in on beautiful piano pieces does it not remind us of another situation familiar to us all.

That of our Bill and KB sometimes intruding and wanting to have last say etc etc. They are always right and always there.

Otherwise I have nothing against them and like them. But an intellectual like KB should learn to respect freedom of speech a bit more. Bill, the non-intellectual does respect more so, even though it is less expected of him.

qpawn
01-07-2006, 05:41 PM
As a tone deaf amusical tonal tragic , I express the utmost jealousy of anyone else's musical enjoyment.

Was it Tarrasch who said that it is a tragedy to die without learning chesx or music?

antichrist
01-07-2006, 05:51 PM
listen qpawn, you should have been agreeing with me in above post because it was Bill who interfered about your complaining in communication of chess events. He is not even from your state and he was rude and arrogant about it.

Kevin Bonham
01-07-2006, 08:14 PM
Typical. AC bumps his own closed poll thread from over a year ago to threadjack it with one of his lame irrelevant metaphors. :rolleyes:


Just as my whinge about violins intruding in on beautiful piano pieces does it not remind us of another situation familiar to us all.

That of our Bill and KB sometimes intruding and wanting to have last say etc etc. They are always right and always there.

Otherwise I have nothing against them and like them. But an intellectual like KB should learn to respect freedom of speech a bit more. Bill, the non-intellectual does respect more so, even though it is less expected of him.

You have as little clue about this whole free speech bizzo as firegoat. For someone to always be responding to someone else (if that is even the case) is not the opposite of free speech but the essence of it.

Furthermore you will notice that Bill made an error and said so on a swiss pairings thread this week, so even he cannot be criticised using the discredited "never-wrong" tag that firegoat has idiotically applied to me now and then.

Finally if your comment about free speech relates to moderation then you will find it appropriately debunked here (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=4050)

antichrist
03-07-2006, 08:24 PM
Typical. AC bumps his own closed poll thread from over a year ago to threadjack it with one of his lame irrelevant metaphors. :rolleyes:



You have as little clue about this whole free speech bizzo as firegoat. For someone to always be responding to someone else (if that is even the case) is not the opposite of free speech but the essence of it.

Furthermore you will notice that Bill made an error and said so on a swiss pairings thread this week, so even he cannot be criticised using the discredited "never-wrong" tag that firegoat has idiotically applied to me now and then.

Finally if your comment about free speech relates to moderation then you will find it appropriately debunked here (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=4050)



I am too busy to go into at moment - will follow up later. IN one sentence there is no reason why you can't leave non-chess threads alone if there is not bad language or racism etc problems.

Sometimes you and Bill act like two violins always screeching - as continual as the sound of the violin is. That is why I find them irritating. So my analogy in this thread is relevant.

Kevin Bonham
04-07-2006, 12:40 AM
IN one sentence there is no reason why you can't leave non-chess threads alone if there is not bad language or racism etc problems.

Suffice to say if you went that far off-topic on anyone else's non-chess thread I would disagree. However if you want to trash your own thread, be my guest.


Sometimes you and Bill act like two violins always screeching - as continual as the sound of the violin is.

If our posts are like the sound of violins then yours are like fingernails being dragged down a blackboard. :hand:

Adamski
03-04-2009, 10:28 PM
I am too busy to go into at moment - will follow up later. IN one sentence there is no reason why you can't leave non-chess threads alone if there is not bad language or racism etc problems.

Sometimes you and Bill act like two violins always screeching - as continual as the sound of the violin is. That is why I find them irritating. So my analogy in this thread is relevant.AC, why do you have it in for violins? They can make beautiful music, with or without pianos. My wife and I recently heard one of the foremost violinists alive today, Gidon Kremer, playing with a string orchestra at the Sydney Opera House, named Kremerata Baltica. Excellent and including the first time we have ever heard a xylophone solo.
Actually only yesterday I finished a novel (almost entirely read while commuting to and from work) about violins and luthiers (you might look that one up but a big clue is Stradivari was one). It was called The Sleeper and was by Paul Adam (not my cousin, who is Paul Adams with an s). A good detective novel!
Finally, my sister Miranda is Principal Violinist for the Auckland Philharmonia, and her oldest daughter is studying the violin in Europe. So I guess you can see that I have a bit of a soft spot for the violin.
I bumped this thread after seeing a reference to it tonight.

Sir Cromulent Sparkles
04-04-2009, 07:56 AM
firstly i dont think this is a bad poll but..............violin all the way for me.
and thats considering i played piano for 8 years when i was young.

the piano is obviously very nice, but violin is able to be played with a greater range of embellishments such as pizzicato, harmonics, tremolo etc.

the transition of notes on a violin can obviously encompass every degree of note change if you slide your finger from say E natural to F natural. if i was to attempt the same thing on a piano i would only be able to strike the individual white keys of E and F. obviously the pianos ability to traverse between the E and F is less expressive than the violins ability.

also, in my opinion, violin is a closer sound to the human voice than that of the piano because of that smooth transition of notes and the fact that the sound is brighter and more expressive than that of the piano.

if your not a violin advocate, "youtube" the names "leonid kogan" or "david oistrakh" for masterful displays of the instrument.

peace out. ;) ;)

Hobbes
04-04-2009, 09:29 AM
They should compliment each other

VIOLIN: You're sounding good today, Piano!
PIANO: Thanks Violin, you are also sounding terrific!

Basil
04-04-2009, 11:19 AM
^ I like this :D

Adamski
04-04-2009, 01:34 PM
VIOLIN: You're sounding good today, Piano!
PIANO: Thanks Violin, you are also sounding terrific!Good one, Hobbes. I do enjoy good piano playing as well as good violin playing.

AzureBlue
04-04-2009, 08:55 PM
When listen to classical sometimes I resent the intrusion of the violins in a beuatiful piano piece. I know maybe the pianos are only accompanying the violins or vice versa?
And why don't they have a number of pianos all playing together, I have been told it is because there is insufficient room for the pianos. What a pathetic excuse I thought.
So have your say.

It is a confidental poll, multiply voting is allowed, and any suggestions for improving the poll are welcome.
Are you talking about a violin concerto or a piano concerto?

Mischa
04-04-2009, 09:34 PM
India is learning flute..after 5 lessons she is moved to the advanced class...just a boasting mum

antichrist
08-04-2009, 04:18 PM
Are you talking about a violin concerto or a piano concerto?
a mixed bag where I have been advised that is how the composed intended them to be.

But it can be so annoying, the clear consise notes of piano compared to the streaming background effect of violins, like christmas songs and musaz they are always there if you want them or not, they are like your own BO, you can't get away from them.

They are like Jose Feliciano singing Light my Fire they (violins) deaden the whole piano effect with mediocrisy.

Space_Dude
08-04-2009, 07:51 PM
I used to be good at playing the violin untill i moved to Australia that is.

eclectic
08-04-2009, 08:17 PM
I used to be good at playing the violin untill i moved to Australia that is.

thus ending the prospect of a promising violin korea? :whistle:

Space_Dude
08-04-2009, 09:23 PM
thus ending the prospect of a promising violin korea? :whistle:
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Space_Dude
08-04-2009, 09:25 PM
I was so good that i could just hear a song or music and just play it on the spot... but now, i cant even play ode to joy with out having to stop to check where my fingers are placed..:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

AzureBlue
12-04-2009, 06:25 PM
I was so good that i could just hear a song or music and just play it on the spot... but now, i cant even play ode to joy with out having to stop to check where my fingers are placed..:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
When did u stop playing?
I "quit" near the end of last year after passing my AmusA (wasn't sure if I'd make it, but I'm glad), and haven't really practised properly for... half a year, but I still enjoy trying out random pieces off the AMEB Syllabus - chopin ballades and scherzos, and barber's excursions and nocturnes are quite good :)
But yeah, I'm just playing for fun now, which is pretty awesome!
As for violin, I have no idea how to play a single note. LOL

antichrist
29-11-2010, 05:55 PM
Violins interferring in a piano concerto (Chopin Piano Concerto 1 E minor Opus11) is like too much honey in a smoothy - it is sickening and smothers the real taste of the fruit.

Rincewind
29-11-2010, 09:31 PM
Violins interferring in a piano concerto (Chopin Piano Concerto 1 E minor Opus11) is like too much honey in a smoothy - it is sickening and smothers the real taste of the fruit.

Maybe you should look into the works of Charles-Valentin Alkan.

EpicEffects
30-11-2010, 08:59 AM
Violins interferring in a piano concerto (Chopin Piano Concerto 1 E minor Opus11) is like too much honey in a smoothy - it is sickening and smothers the real taste of the fruit.

If you really object to violins (and presumably whole orchestras) with Pianos, then perhaps you should rather listen to Piano Solos.
For Chopin you could start with his Piano Sonatas, Polonaises and Nocturnes, for example.

Rincewind
30-11-2010, 09:29 AM
If you really object to violins (and presumably whole orchestras) with Pianos, then perhaps you should rather listen to Piano Solos.
For Chopin you could start with his Piano Sonatas, Polonaises and Nocturnes, for example.

That was sort of my point. Alkan composed Concerto for Solo Piano. :)

EpicEffects
30-11-2010, 09:40 AM
That was sort of my point. Alkan composed Concerto for Solo Piano. :)

Perhaps for the exclusive piano listeners I could go the other way then and suggest Bartok's Concerto for orchestra :)

Sir Cromulent Sparkles
01-12-2010, 01:44 AM
some recent piano listenings of mine include the obscure composers sorabji kaikhosru and balakirev.

kaikhosru is definitely interesting.......

EpicEffects
01-12-2010, 07:03 AM
some recent piano listenings of mine include the obscure composers sorabji kaikhosru and balakirev.


Balakirev is not that obscure - he composed "Islamey" which was widely regarded amongst pianists as the most difficult composition ever from a technical aspect. Legend then has it that Ravel wrote "Scarbo" to be more difficult...

Sir Cromulent Sparkles
01-12-2010, 07:48 PM
Balakirev is not that obscure - he composed "Islamey" which was widely regarded amongst pianists as the most difficult composition ever from a technical aspect. Legend then has it that Ravel wrote "Scarbo" to be more difficult...

yes, islamey appears ridiculously difficult to play. as a song I don't really think its that pleasing to listen to but I would commend any pianist that is able to play it accurately.

is kaikhosru considered obscure or is he more commonly known between pianists ?

EpicEffects
01-12-2010, 08:44 PM
is kaikhosru considered obscure or is he more commonly known between pianists ?

I have never heard of Kaikhosru - I'm quite sure that he is not at all well known - certainly not to the extent of Balakirev, anyway.

Trent Parker
01-12-2010, 10:14 PM
I have not been there but my parents have been twice, to this bar in Seattle called 88 keys. They have two Grand pianos facing each other and the players can play almost anything that is requested of them. They were even able to do a piano rendition of the comical hiphop song "i'm on a boat" lol

Apparently an excellent night out if you're ever in Seattle lol

antichrist
01-12-2010, 10:25 PM
I have not been there but my parents have been twice, to this bar in Seattle called 88 keys. They have two Grand pianos facing each other and the players can play almost anything that is requested of them. They were even able to do a piano rendition of the comical hiphop song "i'm on a boat" lol

Apparently an excellent night out if you're ever in Seattle lol

I have been to a few dual pianist shows, and they were so disappointing in the pieces they chose, were so limited and tame in my view. I am only guessing coz experts are watching them and then are afraid of mistaking or something.

If they are afraid of playing something exciting they should not charge to get in

Trent Parker
01-12-2010, 10:52 PM
At this bar you pay to request a song... might be $5 or $10. If they can't play it you get your money back... If I remember the stories clearly.

Found the website www.ilove88keys.com/

Hobbes
15-04-2013, 11:23 AM
My say is that this is one of the most ridiculous polls I have ever seen. It is almost as if you and Dave are going head-to-head in a Stupidest Poll of 2005 competition. This is a good effort but I have to inform you that Dave is still streets ahead. I'm afraid you'll need to raise the bar a few more notches if you want to make the cut for the next stage of the competition.

Has A/C successfully raise the bar since 2005?

littlesprout85
11-05-2013, 11:50 PM
Hmmmmm,

Ac seems to have a lil hit here in this ancient thread, its a good thang to get off the politics sometimez mr.ac or u might become a lil psyco n sprout then would have to let yea go :whew:

Getting onto the threads topic, The thought of dualing piano's bring to mind the famous dual between bugs bunny n daffy duck LOL....... just replace em with ac n da sprout an Poof Instant hit :P

As for violins, Meh really cant stand em in modern da 80's n up rock n roll mainly because its neva been blended into the hard driving beats fo the bands in general. Its neva been pulled off.... for instance take it into mind of Metalica's attempt at it...... it doesnt quit make the impact....... Iron Maidens attempts to impliment the violins into the mix is probably the best attempt at the process. But if u want ur rock band to get a grammy award then go for it cause Foo Fighters added an asian hot violinist to their band and Poof ........ Grammy Baby !!!! but the song she plays in sucks lolol

Violin Bo's on the other hand are famous in rock n roll m8's ........... for instance . . . .. take Led Zepplins song Dazed n Confused .......UFTA IMPACT on the masses :o

-Sprout85 =)

Adamski
12-05-2013, 12:34 AM
What about Electric Light Orchestra, sprouty? Cool violin from the ELO.

antichrist
28-08-2013, 09:58 PM
what about Leon Berger's The Awakening of Sleeping Venus - my favourite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DalTcw5hpWI

he even got away with playing this at rock nights - he would have serious sessions between the entertainment