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Thunderspirit
13-03-2005, 07:30 AM
I thought I might raise the issue of how much DOP"s should be paid. This varies a lot from state to state, but for a weekend tournament what do people believe a DOP is worth?

The NSWCA pays $100 day for a 2 day weekender, which included not only running the event, but writing a report as well. What do people think?

pax
13-03-2005, 01:12 PM
Hi Lee, you have actually asked two questions, the answers to which may be very different.
1) What should a DOP be paid.
2) What is a DOP worth.

1) ultimately comes down to market forces: how much do you need to pay in order to get the quality of arbiter that you want.

Maybe you can get a competent arbiter who is willing to run your tournament for free. If that is possible then go for it. On the other hand, being the only person at a weekender who doesn't get to play chess, most DOPs (quite fairly) require payment. Except at big high profile tournaments, DOPs in Australia cannot really expect fees which fairly reflect the work that they put in. This is just a fact of life for an amateur sport with little or no sponsorship.

$100 a day is pretty modest fee, especially when a day's work can stretch into ten hours or more. I would be happy to see it higher (and I understand NSWCA either has or is intending to raise it's standard fee). Ultimately however, the fees can never reach professional levels for a run of the mill weekender.

On the other hand, a good DOP is worth a great deal. They are worth a smooth running tournament, swiftly resolved conflicts, illuminating and interesting reports. They are worth the sort of professional fees that can only be paid when there are big sponsorship bucks floating around. And importantly they deserve the personal thanks of every player who plays in their events.

jase
23-03-2005, 07:28 PM
Some good points pax.

As an arbiter who has frequently run events for the NSWCA, I usually am paid $100 per day when I work these events, and I find this fee to be quite reasonable. It might not be quite my hourly rate at work, but that's okay, because it's a cultural event in a community that I enjoy.

It's more than I tend to get for acting jobs in theatre I can assure you!

Fees have been similar when I have run Australian Championships - sometimes the payment is closer to $40-50 a day, but a hotel room is provided for the arbiters to share.

At Doeberl I have had to decline being an arbiter in recent years because I haven't been willing to pay for the privelige. The fees have been $200 for the 4 days for many years now; last time I was an arbiter there my accommodation was $210, petrol money another $30 or so. Before I consider what's for breakfast I am down about $40.

Thunderspirit
23-03-2005, 07:39 PM
It's good to see a fellow arbiter posting here, and one of Australia's best at that!

The $100 per day for NSWCA events is now an 'acceptable' payment in my opinion for what DOP's do.

Jase you are also correct in saying that at a Championship/Open the wages usually drop to $50 per day. The only good thing about Mt Buller was infact the wages.

I love Doeberl is a great event, but I always feel the wages are a bit low. I wouldn't even consider working for the NSWCA for what I get paid at Doeberl, but it's a home event so I do. (I can completely understand though, not wanting to do it though...)

jase
23-03-2005, 09:23 PM
I can completely understand though, not wanting to do it though..

Thanks for the kudos, Lee. Just wanted to clarify that I would love to be involved with Doeberl tournaments; lots of my friends from the chess community are there and it's terrific to see the top players in the same tournament. Alas financially I don't come near breaking even, and the organisers have never shown much interest in my arbitering, to be honest. I have a different style which perhaps they don't think suitable, or possibly they're content with the arbiters they use already. The two years I've been involved I was approached months in advance and asked to be 3rd banana.

Presently I've no plans for Easter so I may jump get a spontaneous impulse to jump on the highway and pop in for a day. Hope the event gets the numbers and top players it warrants.

Garvinator
23-03-2005, 11:21 PM
I have a different style which perhaps they don't think suitable, or possibly they're content with the arbiters they use already. The two years I've been involved I was approached months in advance and asked to be 3rd banana.
Jason, Can you clarify this as I dont know what you mean. To be honest, I am only really familiar with Charles Zworestine as an IA for tournaments I have either been an organiser or player in.

How are you different?

Thunderspirit
24-03-2005, 03:12 AM
Gillian,
Jason is a long time IA, and one of the great ideas men of arbitering in Australian chess. If you want ideas how to run an event, his background will give you lots of great ideas to get things done in a professional manner.

He would have been perfect for advice leading up to Mt Buller. Lets put it this way... want to run a GM event...If you've got the cash, Jase is the man for idea. Of course Gary Bekker would be invaluable as well

''The third monkey" (LOL) interesting term. That job is usually taken my me, not that I'm offended...

shaun
24-03-2005, 10:00 AM
Thanks for the kudos, Lee. Just wanted to clarify that I would love to be involved with Doeberl tournaments; lots of my friends from the chess community are there and it's terrific to see the top players in the same tournament. Alas financially I don't come near breaking even, and the organisers have never shown much interest in my arbitering, to be honest. I have a different style which perhaps they don't think suitable, or possibly they're content with the arbiters they use already. The two years I've been involved I was approached months in advance and asked to be 3rd banana.

Presently I've no plans for Easter so I may jump get a spontaneous impulse to jump on the highway and pop in for a day. Hope the event gets the numbers and top players it warrants.

These observations are pretty right although I'd like to clarify some things from my end.
It is certainly true that interstate arbiters won't make anything from arbiting the Doeberl Cup, and indeed will probably find themselves out of pocket. This is indirectly caused by the desire to only have at least 2 Canberra arbiters each year. Having said that I am going to suggest that more funds be put towards arbiting expenses next year.
It is also true that the organisers haven't shown much interest in your arbiting (although we have asked on occasion) but this is mainly financial. We are aware of the expenses issue and given we can't provide what you feel is a sensible financial package, we just don't ask. And of course we are also happy with the team we usually have.
However there are no "bananas" on the arbiting team. Each arbiter is paid the same amount. Usually one of the arbiters gets their name on the brochure and normally that is the longest continuously serving arbiter on the team. For a while it was me until I missed a year, then it was Charles, and now it is back to me.
We also like to rotate the tournaments amongst the team, so that one year Charles will do the Premier and I might do the Minor. This years team consists of myself, Cathy Rogers and Mark Hummel. As it is Marks first year he will probably get the Minor, although I feel this section has the potential to be the toughest of them all. And while I would be happy for Cathy to do the Premier, with Ian playing it is sensible she probably do the Major instead.
This is not a pecking order thing, just a tournament management issue.

adelandre
24-03-2005, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure if a non-arbiter can post on here.

But for this years Adelaide Uni Open we are basically ensuring Charles Z does not end up out of pocket coming to our tournament. This will mean we cover his airfares and most meals. Fortunately, Alan Goldsmith will put him up free of charge.

Otherwise, SACA pay its arbiters/DOPs $1 per player per day. This is basically a charity service by our longstanding DOP/arbiters Bill Anderson-Smith and Roland Eime. For some SACA weekenders this can be as little as $30-$40 for the whole weekend!

Cheers,
Andrew

jase
24-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Jason is a long time IA

Geez Lee you make me sound so old.
[By the way the GM event I occasionally muse about has come back into my peripheral vision].


Jason, Can you clarify this as I dont know what you mean. To be honest, I am only really familiar with Charles Zworestine as an IA for tournaments I have either been an organiser or player in. How are you different?

Everyone has a unique personality, which affects the way they carry out tasks. I have backgrounds in acting, event management, and education, which all influence the way I organise and run chess tournaments.

I am very conscious of the look of the room. I'll spend an hour moving tables if the layout is not to my liking. I try to always have crosstables and standings on display after about round 2. I carry with me not only the standard 'turn your phones off' notices, but also mini-posters of chess anecdotes, news, short stories [eg woody Allen's short about correspondence chess, "The Gossage-Vardebedian Papers"], interesting problems, and anything else that I think might interest the players.

I am very personable. Maybe too much for an arbiter! The actor in me means that I often give a rundown of the status of the tournament at the start of each round, including anything interesting that's happened in the previous round. I also move around and talk to players before and after rounds so that they don't think of me as the chess police.

I try to facilitate more socialisation. I regularly offer to shout the bar to anyone interested in having a drink at the end of a tournament. A the conclusion of a State Championships a few years ago I had 6 jugs of beer, 3 jugs of OJ, and 3 jugs of Coke, brought to the playing area to encourage everyone to stick around for the presentation. Besides, I was thirsty.

The first tournament I ever organised required the players to stay in villas at a tourist caravan park for the weekend. For your $60 entry fee you got 2 nights accommodation, and I still managed to give out $1,000 in cash prizes. As round 1 started there was a 6-pack of icy-cold Coronas at my arbiter's table. About 15 players played touch footy on the beach, including Jonny Bolens!

At Australian Championships time the Boxing Day and new Years cricket tests are always on, so I put up notices during the day of the current score. And I make sure there's always a home state v the rest cricket match on the rest day [did you know Solomon is a fantastic wicket-keeper?].

I hope this gives you at least a small idea of the type of arbiter I try to be.


It is certainly true that interstate arbiters won't make anything from arbiting the Doeberl Cup, and indeed will probably find themselves out of pocket. This is indirectly caused by the desire to only have at least 2 Canberra arbiters each year.

Thanks for your comments Shaun. I think arbiters are prepared to accept Doeberl's $50 a day because of the prestige of the event. It's the strongest event on the calendar and you want to be there to see our best players compete, catch up with friends, and make new ones. I don't aim to make money out of the tournament when I work as an arbiter, but I do want to minimise how much the weekend will cost. It's reasonable to have locals run the event as they don't need to fork out for accommodation.


However there are no "bananas" on the arbiting team. Each arbiter is paid the same amount.

As Lee understood, the banana reference goes to status, not finances. See above comments about the prestige of the event. It's why you have an IA run the top section, or the Australian Championships for that matter. Financially perhaps it's a simple matter of supply and demand. If excellent arbiters such as yourself and Cathy [and, I'm sure, Mark, though I do not know him] are willing to do the 4 days for $200, maybe there's no need to increase arbiter fees. Sometimes it's just knowing that your efforts are appreciated. Drinks at the end of the day, or a dinner for the organisers and arbiters, would be as good to me as an extra $50 in my pocket. Subtle touches like that make it a more worthwhile experience.

If I don't get down to Canberra, have a wonderful tournament boys. The field looks a cracker. I believe Alex Wohl might even make a rare appearance.

Rincewind
24-03-2005, 01:17 PM
As Lee understood, the banana reference goes to status, not finances.

I took it to be a reference to the three monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Perhaps a reference that the 3rd arbiter was there to be seen and not heard. But then maybe I just have an overactive imagination. ;)

peter_parr
24-03-2005, 01:27 PM
DOP Fees

I was chief arbiter of the annual Doeberl Cup Easter 4 day weekend tournament in Canberra on twenty different occasions (after tying for first place in the 1970ís).

The maximum fee I was paid in any one of the twenty years was $200 (plus free coffee) including seventeen years when I was the sole arbiter of about 140 players.

The hours were long and a lot of work for one sole arbiter.
There were only a few minor problems over the 20 years period resolved by quiet diplomacy.

Jason Lyons was a 12 year old competitor in his first Doeberl Cup.
Ian Rogers, Darryl Johansen, Alex Wohl, Guy West and Stephen Solomon were teenagers (all competing in the 2005 Doeberl Cup!) when I directed major events in the 1970ís.

Arbiters should have a good knowledge of the rules, always have a copy of the latest FIDE Laws of Chess in every event and most importantly use common sense to resolve disputes which have become more frequent in the last few years.

Peter Parr (OAM)
FIDE International Arbiter since 1978
6 times captain of the Australian Olympic Menís Teams

shaun
24-03-2005, 01:33 PM
I took it to be a reference to the three monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Perhaps a reference that the 3rd arbiter was there to be seen and not heard. But then maybe I just have an overactive imagination. ;)

No, I knew what Jase was alluding too. Although it is a theatre expression (haven't you heard the expression 'second banana' to describe a sidekick) it also is used much more widely. But Jase cut off my explanation short in his reply. While Jase thinks there is status attached to each tournament (eg The Premier should have an IA wherever possible) I don't. If Lee Forace was available this year he may well have been directing the Premier while I was doing the Minor. I just see it as 1 big event, not 3 medium size ones.
Of course my point of view may be coloured by the fact that I am not an IA, and yet have been Chief Arbiter at an Australian Championship and at least 2 Australian Opens, as well as plenty of Doeberl Cups.

Thunderspirit
24-03-2005, 06:52 PM
Hi Everyone,
Firstly I to congratuate Mark Hummel for filling the spot at Doeberl. I believe that Mark should probably do the minor, not as he is the 'junior' DOP but because his strength puts him naturally around the field, which serves (in my opinion) the minor well.

As for Jase: Sorry I made you feel old, happy 29th when it comes around... ;)

Denis_Jessop
24-03-2005, 08:23 PM
DOP Fees

I was chief arbiter of the annual Doeberl Cup Easter 4 day weekend tournament in Canberra on twenty different occasions (after tying for first place in the 1970ís).

The maximum fee I was paid in any one of the twenty years was $200 (plus free coffee) including seventeen years when I was the sole arbiter of about 140 players.

The hours were long and a lot of work for one sole arbiter.
There were only a few minor problems over the 20 years period resolved by quiet diplomacy.

Jason Lyons was a 12 year old competitor in his first Doeberl Cup.
Ian Rogers, Darryl Johansen, Alex Wohl, Guy West and Stephen Solomon were teenagers (all competing in the 2005 Doeberl Cup!) when I directed major events in the 1970ís.

Arbiters should have a good knowledge of the rules, always have a copy of the latest FIDE Laws of Chess in every event and most importantly use common sense to resolve disputes which have become more frequent in the last few years.

Peter Parr (OAM)
FIDE International Arbiter since 1978
6 times captain of the Australian Olympic Menís Teams

Nice to have a "blast from the past" from Peter. I well remember the days in the 1970s when Peter was sole arbiter and I and a few others sucha sHelmut Ackermann and the late George Stern were the main organisers. Those were the days when the Doeberl Cup was becoming well established as a leading tournament and we (the ACTCA) were indebted to Peter for the able way in which he undertook the task of arbiting and virtually doing all the running of the event (bar emptying the ashtrays). We even managed to get Eric Doeberl to come along for the 21st DC on one of the occasions when I was ACTCA President. I may be wrong but I think that the standard fee for Peter then (the 1970s) was $200 for the event. That would now translate to something like $2000 or more I imagine so Shaun's mention of higher arbiters' fees is not out of place.

DJ

Thunderspirit
25-03-2005, 05:28 AM
Hi All,
I agree make the DOP fees equal to first prize, sounds great!

Okay... I admit Denis did't say that...

I suppose it call comes down to the budget... I have to say i all honesty if the Doeberl Cup can only afford to pay what they do becuase otherwise the event will run at a loss, I'll happily do it for the amout currently paid. It's Doeberl...

Not speaking for Shuan and Charles, I have the feeling they feel the same...

Long live the Doeberl Cup! Hope Lloyd Fell can make all the first 50!

Thunderspirit
29-10-2009, 06:18 PM
I'm curious to know what players, administrators and other randoms think about wages for arbiters. When I started arbitering seriously (at 17) the daily wage was a mere $50. This was for all arbiters as well, this wasn't an apprentice arbiter's wage.

A few years later, while living in Sydney with a bit of a fight I was able to get the NSWCA to pay $100 and then $110 a day for a standard day. For a day where there are three 90+30 sec games, the rate is now $130. To be fair to the NSWCA, these are the highest wages for weekenders that I know of in Australia.

While it's nice to see that things have moved in the right direction, I no longer see those rates as being acceptable and I'm no longer aribtering because of them. For a standard day, being 4 rounds at 60+10 or 2 rounds at 90+30 I feel that $150 is necessary. For the 3 round days at 90+30, I now feel that $200 is not unreasonable. At the NSW Open this year, on the Sunday, I started at 9:30am for a 10am round and didn't leave until almost
1am (3 rounds at 90+30).

Some other aribters (including I.A's) don't agree with me, saying that $100 a day is ample. I'll throw it over to you.... What do people think?

Capablanca-Fan
29-10-2009, 07:28 PM
"The worker is worthy of his hire". The arbiters of QLD tournaments like Garvo and Ian Murray work hard to make tournaments run fairly and smoothly, so that would be a reasonable suggestion. The worst arbiters have been some of the assistants at Olympiads

Kevin Bonham
29-10-2009, 08:44 PM
It rather depends on whether a person sees arbiting as something they do on the side and for which an honorarium-style nominal payment is nice, or something they do as an important part of their income. If it's the latter then it's hard to take being paid at what are effectively well below award wage rates.

I will run certain kinds of tournaments for no charge except for covering of all expenses, including TCA weekenders and the upcoming Aus Junior. But for those chess things I do for pay on a regular basis and wouldn't do otherwise, there is no way I'd be doing 11+ hours for $130. Indeed, I currently do interschools that run about five hours (plus travel time) for only a bit less than that. That said (a) they are many times more energy-intensive than running adult tournaments (b) I'll often be willing to travel overnight and work the next day without charging any more, but a part of that is that often that gives me transport to places where I can do things that interest me, as well as running the tournament.

Garvinator
02-11-2009, 12:49 PM
Do you want my comments Thunderspirit?

Thunderspirit
02-11-2009, 05:25 PM
Do you want my comments Thunderspirit?


I'm surprised you asked? I've seen you reading post and in some ways it serves your interest to debate here.

My big beef was with you was leaving George to drown after Buller, he was the boss, but you still had a major part in the event... It wan't fair that he took all the crap.

Also, you done some dopey things like check your email on the DGT boards? If you want other DOP's/Organisers to respect and pay you outside QLD, then you need to show the goods. Your FA title means little...

road runner
02-11-2009, 06:57 PM
Should the arbiter earn more than the organiser? If the event loses money the arbiter still walks away with a few hundred bucks.

Should the arbiter earn more than the first prize?

Thunderspirit
02-11-2009, 08:32 PM
Should the arbiter earn more than the organiser? If the event loses money the arbiter still walks away with a few hundred bucks.

Should the arbiter earn more than the first prize?

The answer to the first question is yes. If the organiser is a private venture and he/she takes a chance of making a profit based on their calculations and they are wrong, then this is their fault. If the event goes well, they make money.

If the organiser is say the NSWCA, I believe that for the most part, events should be self funding. This requires a little guess work, but for established events, running over multiple years, if an event usually has between 80-120 players, budget on 80, and then do costs. If for one year, the event runs at 5% loss, its not a big deal. Aribters still deserve to get paid a decent wage.

To the second question, should the DOP earn more than first prize, there are two issues here. Issue one is the prizes themselves. I was chatting with one of Australia's top players once on prizes and he commented that the first time he won $1,000 at a weekender was in 1980! For the most part, the average weekender in Australia still pays $1,000 first prize. In real terms, how much have prizes dropped in 30 years? if the average weekender (60+10) paid $5,000 then a DOP being paid $400 for a weekend doesn't seem so bad.

This second question is partially based on a reality that happened a few years ago, I think it was at the City of Sydney Championship were the DOP was paid $110 per day, for 9 rounds, and this $1000 was more than 1st. If it was me, I would no longer do that event for $1K especially with chasing players during the week who want byes and getting constant phone calls asking for the draw. The workload is different to a standard 60+10 weekender.

It is unfortunate than the DOP's fee was more than 1st prize. At the top of Australian chess, Chess is work for some people and so at least an okay ablilty to win money would be desirable. I like Boris' questions.

I would feel a bit bad if I did an event like the City of Sydney if I took home $1K and the 1st place took home less. I would feel bad, because the FM/IM who has won the event hasn't had the chance to win a better prize. I still feel that for an event like the city of Sydney $150 per day is valid.

lost
06-11-2009, 01:43 AM
I believe for weekenders arbiter should be paid as per the following:

untitled arbiter: $20-$30 per round

FA arbiter: $40 per round

IA arbiter: $50 per round

However in the case of norm events it should be the following:

untitled arbiter: $30 per round

FA arbiter: $50 per round

IA arbiter: anything from $65 per round upwards.

lost

Garvinator
06-11-2009, 02:07 AM
I believe for weekenders arbiter should be paid as per the following:

untitled arbiter: $20-$30 per round
FA arbiter: $40 per round
IA arbiter: $50 per round
However in the case of norm events it should be the following:
untitled arbiter: $30 per round
FA arbiter: $50 per round
IA arbiter: anything from $65 per round upwards.

Are you going to factor in the length of rounds in terms of both time control and number of weeks a tournament is held over?

road runner
06-11-2009, 08:38 AM
Are you going to factor in the length of rounds in terms of both time control and number of weeks a tournament is held over?
Well he did say "weekenders".

lost
06-11-2009, 07:47 PM
Well he did say "weekenders".

Thank you Boris.

Whether it is a weekender with 9 rounds or over 9 weeks. Is there really any difference at all Garvinator?

lost

Thunderspirit
06-11-2009, 10:01 PM
I believe for weekenders arbiter should be paid as per the following:

untitled arbiter: $20-$30 per round

FA arbiter: $40 per round

IA arbiter: $50 per round

However in the case of norm events it should be the following:

untitled arbiter: $30 per round

FA arbiter: $50 per round

IA arbiter: anything from $65 per round upwards.

lost


I actually don't mind this idea, but there should be more pay for a 90/30 game over a weekender than a g/60.

Nice idea, Lost.

Do I know you in real life?

Kevin Bonham
06-11-2009, 10:27 PM
Thank you Boris.

Whether it is a weekender with 9 rounds or over 9 weeks. Is there really any difference at all Garvinator?

lost

There is a difference between a weekender and a weekly tournament and that is the arbiter's travel time, which is unpaid and can be considerably greater in the latter case. (Also if the arbiter is out of their home city, then 1 round/day can be a lot more of an issue than a weekender. 1 round/day in these cases means a whole day away from home and other work, even if the round only takes 4-5 hours.)

For instance while I don't mind arbiting for $25/hr or so when it is a block of several hours together, for "bits and pieces" arbiting/coaching I would never charge less than $35 for one hour or $50 for an hour and a half. (That is for an event where I am charging at all.) Just not worth messing around half an hour there, half an hour back, $5 busfares to work for $25.

ER
06-11-2009, 11:34 PM
Arbiters must be paid well! They are doing a great job, those who do it well anyway! BTW I was really impressed by Lost's performance at the MCC Cup weekender when he did a couple of rounds! Keep Jamie in safe, apart from his impressive Chess progress, he is also improving as a DOP/Arbiter! :clap:

Thunderspirit
07-11-2009, 06:25 AM
Arbiters must be paid well! They are doing a great job, those who do it well anyway! BTW I was really impressed by Lost's performance at the MCC Cup weekender when he did a couple of rounds! Keep Jamie in safe, apart from his impressive Chess progress, he is also improving as a DOP/Arbiter! :clap:


So Lost is Jamie Kenmure?

ER
07-11-2009, 11:05 AM
So Lost is Jamie Kenmure?
Yes Thunder indeed he is! :)
BTW sorry I hadn't seen your previous; if I had, my response would have been more immediate!

Thunderspirit
07-11-2009, 03:29 PM
Hi had a nice chat with Shuan Press today about the idea of being paid by the round. We both like the idea, but I still have some concerns about a 3 round a day event where you start at 10am and finish possiblily after midnight, or possibly 1am.

I think either you would need a sliding scale based on the time limits. a g/60+10 game might be $30 per game and a g/90+30 might be $60. Anyway, it's food for thought...

lost
07-11-2009, 06:58 PM
So Lost is Jamie Kenmure?

Yes Lee.

Also thank you for you words once again. Anyone that has had me for an arbiter will know how I run things and anyone that wants to know, well then play in a tournament when I am a arbiter.

Lee, this is a philosophy that I have always had with arbiters. You play an arbiter good money you expect results. You pay them s*** money you expect s*** results.

If it is someone new to arbitering you can't expect them to be perfect first go either. If you expect this, this is not good at all from 1. A player and 2. the organising committee.

One thing players have to realise is that an arbiter isn't about sitting on there a*** doing anything at all. They decide disputes, they set up boards you name it. An effective arbiter makes sure everything runs smoothly and also starts on time regardless of what type of tournament it is.

This also goes for the tournaments like Doeberl, SIO where I have played in Doeberl numerous of times and they have started late, only 10 minutes.

This is not good in the view of international players. These players are used to starting on time when advertised.

Also I would like to make a recommendation to every club, state and the ACF, all major events should have a cut-off date of entries being excepted and any late entries incur a major penalty.

Again, I hold these views and do not speak for anyone else on this matter. No one is responsible for these comments apart from myself.

lost

lost
07-11-2009, 07:06 PM
Hi had a nice chat with Shuan Press today about the idea of being paid by the round. We both like the idea, but I still have some concerns about a 3 round a day event where you start at 10am and finish possiblily after midnight, or possibly 1am.

I think either you would need a sliding scale based on the time limits. a g/60+10 game might be $30 per game and a g/90+30 might be $60. Anyway, it's food for thought...

If someone cannot be bothered applying for FA, IA title but have done enough tournaments to prove and show the standard then why not push for $60 per round.

I know that I am at FA standard and I will not do anything less then $35 per round.

I have being an arbiter for the Australian Masters 2004 or 2005, the year that it was held at Noble Park Chess Club and I know that at the time I was inexperienced at norm events.

I know that ACT are looking for FIDE tournaments all the time.

I am prepared to come up and arbiter any tournaments they want, or for that matter play in them.

lost

Thunderspirit
07-11-2009, 09:06 PM
Yes Lee.

Also thank you for you words once again. Anyone that has had me for an arbiter will know how I run things and anyone that wants to know, well then play in a tournament when I am a arbiter.

Lee, this is a philosophy that I have always had with arbiters. You play an arbiter good money you expect results. You pay them s*** money you expect s*** results.

If it is someone new to arbitering you can't expect them to be perfect first go either. If you expect this, this is not good at all from 1. A player and 2. the organising committee.

One thing players have to realise is that an arbiter isn't about sitting on there a*** doing anything at all. They decide disputes, they set up boards you name it. An effective arbiter makes sure everything runs smoothly and also starts on time regardless of what type of tournament it is.

This also goes for the tournaments like Doeberl, SIO where I have played in Doeberl numerous of times and they have started late, only 10 minutes.

This is not good in the view of international players. These players are used to starting on time when advertised.

Also I would like to make a recommendation to every club, state and the ACF, all major events should have a cut-off date of entries being excepted and any late entries incur a major penalty.

Again, I hold these views and do not speak for anyone else on this matter. No one is responsible for these comments apart from myself.

lost

Jamie, I agree with what you have said here, not that you've told me anything new...

Thunderspirit
07-11-2009, 09:14 PM
If someone cannot be bothered applying for FA, IA title but have done enough tournaments to prove and show the standard then why not push for $60 per round.

I know that I am at FA standard and I will not do anything less then $35 per round.

I have being an arbiter for the Australian Masters 2004 or 2005, the year that it was held at Noble Park Chess Club and I know that at the time I was inexperienced at norm events.

I know that ACT are looking for FIDE tournaments all the time.

I am prepared to come up and arbiter any tournaments they want, or for that matter play in them.

lost

Shuan Press once said to me, "Australia does not need International Aribters, Australia needs good arbiters." I couldn't agree more. Shuan is not an IA, but he would have close to 20 norms over the years.

As for me, I have 2 IA norm events, being the 1999 and 2003 Australian Opens. The 1999 norm has long expired and the Mt Buller norm I never got. As for FA norms I counted that I has 28 at one stage. There is very little I can learn from DOPing in Australia, so I have to go OS which isn't a priority.

I get offers to DOP, but I'm not budging on my price, so I go without. I don't see it being a problem.

Good to see you are becoming an aribter. Keep doing weekenders and if you want FA/IA norms they are easy enough to get...

Kevin Bonham
07-11-2009, 10:53 PM
Shuan Press once said to me, "Australia does not need International Aribters, Australia needs good arbiters." I couldn't agree more.

Ditto here. The titles depend on who has (a) been in a position to arbiter norm events (b) been inclined to put in the application. Sadly it is frequently displayed on this board that titled IAs can make serious errors (for instance the numerous instances in which correct computer-generated draws have been incorrectly overridden after players complained about them). At world level IA Gijssen is supposedly one of the few most famous and senior arbiters yet his ChessCafe columns frequently contain major errors. The titles indicate a certain degree of experience and probably that the arbiter has some idea, but there are many untitled arbiters re whom the same could be said.

Mischa
07-11-2009, 11:12 PM
I agree that arbiters should be paid more
but I worry about the impact on tournament rates
How would increased rates impact on costs for the entrants.
Also not all arbiters are equal........

lost
08-11-2009, 12:24 PM
Shuan Press once said to me, "Australia does not need International Aribters, Australia needs good arbiters." I couldn't agree more. Shuan is not an IA, but he would have close to 20 norms over the years.

As for me, I have 2 IA norm events, being the 1999 and 2003 Australian Opens. The 1999 norm has long expired and the Mt Buller norm I never got. As for FA norms I counted that I has 28 at one stage. There is very little I can learn from DOPing in Australia, so I have to go OS which isn't a priority.

I get offers to DOP, but I'm not budging on my price, so I go without. I don't see it being a problem.

Good to see you are becoming an aribter. Keep doing weekenders and if you want FA/IA norms they are easy enough to get...


Lee, I was an arbiter before having a rest from chess back in 2005. I will continue to be an arbiter where it can permit me to do so.

You will be seeing me up in doeberl as well in 2010, which I'm hoping its in the Premier event as I have secured sponsorship from my local council to play in Doeberl and SIO.

However if the Doeberl committee is looking for an arbiter then I will do it on the rate that I do them at though.

lost

lost
08-11-2009, 12:31 PM
I agree that arbiters should be paid more
but I worry about the impact on tournament rates
How would increased rates impact on costs for the entrants.
Also not all arbiters are equal........


Mischa, it simple comes down to this: This shouldn't affect costs from entrants. The organising committee should be able to find a sponsor for the arbiter to cover there costs if they are worried that they have to go lower then what the arbiter's expected costs are.

Let's say it's an FA and it was me and its a normed event. I charge usually around $40 per round. It's a 9 round event and that comes to a cost of $360.

If the organising committee can't pay this, go out and hit 4 business for a $90 sponsorship to cover the arbiter's costs.

A business will sponsor $90 towards the tournament if they are getting publicity. You will be surprised on these outcomes!!

lost

Basil
08-11-2009, 12:34 PM
:eek:

Brian_Jones
08-11-2009, 01:45 PM
:eek:
:eek:

:rolleyes:

Basil
08-11-2009, 01:59 PM
:eek:

:rolleyes:
:hmm:

Phil Bourke
08-11-2009, 02:16 PM
Mischa, it simple comes down to this: This shouldn't affect costs from entrants. The organising committee should be able to find a sponsor for the arbiter to cover there costs if they are worried that they have to go lower then what the arbiter's expected costs are.

Let's say it's an FA and it was me and its a normed event. I charge usually around $40 per round. It's a 9 round event and that comes to a cost of $360.

If the organising committee can't pay this, go out and hit 4 business for a $90 sponsorship to cover the arbiter's costs.

A business will sponsor $90 towards the tournament if they are getting publicity. You will be surprised on these outcomes!!

lost
Why don't the arbiters go out and get their own sponsors.

Then they could simply tell the organisers who to put down as thank yous etc for providing the sponsorships!

If you think it is easy to hit four businesses and get $90 from each of them, I'll happily book you for the next tournament I organise.

lost
08-11-2009, 02:24 PM
Why don't the arbiters go out and get their own sponsors.

Then they could simply tell the organisers who to put down as thank yous etc for providing the sponsorships!

If you think it is easy to hit four businesses and get $90 from each of them, I'll happily book you for the next tournament I organise.


Phil, your from the blayney chess club right? I will do my own research and will get back to you on this.

Also arbiters are there to do a job and that's making sure the tournament is ran smoothly and that players play good chess and have a good tournament.

As I have mentioned in previous posts in this thread, if you want a good arbiter you expect results, if you want a s*** arbiter you expect s*** results.

Again, I'm happy to take on your advice and get back to you on this.

lost

Thunderspirit
08-11-2009, 07:40 PM
Mischa, it simple comes down to this: This shouldn't affect costs from entrants. The organising committee should be able to find a sponsor for the arbiter to cover there costs if they are worried that they have to go lower then what the arbiter's expected costs are.

Let's say it's an FA and it was me and its a normed event. I charge usually around $40 per round. It's a 9 round event and that comes to a cost of $360.

If the organising committee can't pay this, go out and hit 4 business for a $90 sponsorship to cover the arbiter's costs.

A business will sponsor $90 towards the tournament if they are getting publicity. You will be surprised on these outcomes!!

lost


Jamie, I hate to sound mean, but that's very naive. If sponosrship money was easy to get, then there would be more money in chess. Even good organisers such as Graeme Gardiner and Jason Lyons can struggle to find sponsors.

Good luck though.

lost
08-11-2009, 08:19 PM
Jamie, I hate to sound mean, but that's very naive. If sponosrship money was easy to get, then there would be more money in chess. Even good organisers such as Graeme Gardiner and Jason Lyons can struggle to find sponsors.

Good luck though.

Lee, I understand where you are coming from and I respect you views on this. But lets take a look at the MCC. They do a good job and what I'm about to say is nothing against the MCC in anyway.

Where is the MCC located. We all know its locate in Leicester St Fitzroy which runs off Brunswick St Fitzroy.

Lets say for example they couldn't afford an arbiter for MCC weekender just for arguments sake and they wanted to pay some $100 for the tournament. We all know that ain't going to happen at all.

They way the MCC could fund for a good arbiter and pay him as well is really simple.

Brunswick St in Fitzroy has plenty of coffee shops and restaurants. All you have to do is get four business' to chip in $90 out of what the business earns per year. We all know $90 is peanuts for a business.

You have got the arbiter covered. Say you have to pay $600, then all you have to do is get six business' to put in $100 for the tournament out of what the business earns per year.

But what do the business' get out of it? Publicity on brochures and players from the tournament going to have something to eat or drink there.

I'm not saying that we force the players to go to the particular business because we can not force people to do anything at all.This is what I was trying to get across.

I have a lot of respect for Greame Gardiner, however personally never meeting Jason Lyons, I cannot comment on him at all.

Hopefully this is some clarification on the matter.

Sorry to anyone offended at all. Is not and will not be my intention at all.

lost

Basil
08-11-2009, 08:24 PM
My bolding.


They way the MCC could fund for a good arbiter and pay him as well is really simple.

All you have to do is get four business' to chip in $90 out of what the business earns per year.

You have got the arbiter covered. Say you have to pay $600, then all you have to do is get six business' to put in $100 for the tournament out of what the business earns per year.

Hi Jaime, do you have any experience in this field? Or are you suggesting a theoretical approach to business? Who is the 'you' in "all you have to do"? How many businesses would you believe have to be approached to secure four yeses? How much time would this take? Who pays this 'you'?

lost
08-11-2009, 08:47 PM
Do you have any experience in this field?

Yes I do actually. Let me tell you something Gunner. I have already secured private sponsorship for me to play in Doeberl and SIO for next year and the following years after that if I want it. It's about approaching them the right way and if I want to, I can get sponsorship for myself to play in a couple of tournaments in Europe as well, but have declined the offer as I have other committments which take a priority first.


Or are you suggesting a theoretical approach to business?

I am not suggesting a theoretical approach here at all but a realistic approach.


Who is the 'you' in "all you have to do"?

Who is the you? Easy. The organising committee of the tournament. Who else can it possibly be?


How many businesses would you believe have to be approached to secure four yeses?

How many business' would you have to approach? The easy approach is four however it could be as many as twenty.


How much time would this take?

Time is always the issue but remember, to put time you reap the rewards later. In this case it would be the players who get the rewards.

Who pays this 'you'?

I don't pay this at all. If the organising committee want a good tournament then you have to put in time to make it a good tournament. SIO for example is a great tournament because they organising team put in the time. Another one is Doeberl.




Also the way to spell my name is Jamie. It could have being simply a type-o and that happens from time to time.

Anyway hope this is some clarification for everyone now.

lost

Basil
08-11-2009, 08:59 PM
Thanks for the clarifications on how you see the world of commercial sponsorship as derived from your own personal outcomes, Jamie. So you haven't actually done what you are suggesting. Is that correct? Yours is a theoretical idea of how one would go about tournament sponsorship.

lost
08-11-2009, 09:18 PM
Thanks for the clarifications on how you see the world of commercial sponsorship as derived from your own personal outcomes, Jamie. So you haven't actually done what you are suggesting. Is that correct? Yours is a theoretical idea of how one would go about tournament sponsorship.

Gunner,

I will answer your question but in a different scenario.

If there was a radio frequency available in Victoria to start up a new radio station, I have guaranteed at least a minimum, yes a minimum of $1,000,000 sponsorship from two major telecommunication organisations. That's $500,000 each organisation.

In terms of my own personal outcomes, I have personally done this. I have ran a community radio station for a couple of days, I have ran business' before. I have ran programs and assisted a particular council in certain projects.

lost

Basil
08-11-2009, 09:33 PM
Gunner,

I will answer your question but in a different scenario.
I'd rather a yes/ no to my original - as it tends to cut to the heart of the matter.

As for the rest of your post, I might as well say that I have run a newspaper in for a couple of days :eek: It proves nothing.

Of further edification (for someone who has clearly never been anywhere near business), in the last month, I have received (through my business) appeals/ personal approaches from The Smith Family, the Cerebral Palsy League, The Spinal Injuries Association and the Cancer Foundation's Children's Christmas Appeal for funds. Had I received a request from the local bowls club to chip in $100, I would have politely declined. This is not say that all businesses would decline, but to suggest that the first four approached would accept is frankly a waste of

- bandwidth
- my time
- other readers' intelligence, and
- your reputation

I suggest you return to the sweet land of theoretical nod and spout your nonsense to those unable to discern a dribbler from a hundred paces.

Mischa
08-11-2009, 09:37 PM
Jamie stop bothering to reply to these non believers!!!
Set up a tourny with sponsership and prove them wrong!!!

Garvinator
08-11-2009, 09:41 PM
Jamie stop bothering to reply to these non believers!!!
Set up a tourny with sponsership and prove them wrong!!!
I think all sides of this thread would agree with this.

Basil
08-11-2009, 09:45 PM
Jamie stop bothering to reply to these non believers!!!
Set up a tourny with sponsership and prove them wrong!!!
Yes!

And from coffee shops! Not daddy's mates at the club or any other darling network established to assist emerging clueless twits with their CV.

MichaelBaron
08-11-2009, 09:48 PM
Gunner,

I will answer your question but in a different scenario.

If there was a radio frequency available in Victoria to start up a new radio station, I have guaranteed at least a minimum, yes a minimum of $1,000,000 sponsorship from two major telecommunication organisations. That's $500,000 each organisation.


lost

Jamie, I do not think so. I am sure there are cases of some Radio stations securing 1m worth of sponsorship or more but i doubt - every single station can secure that much. Would it be the case - community radio stations would not struggle for survival (and as far as i know some of them are struggling).

On the other hand, I agree with you and others - arbiters should definitely be getting paid. This will bring more professionalism into how chess tournaments are run but then again - I can not imagine arbiter fees being substantial enough to make someone view running chess events as a core source of income. $50 per round = $50/5hours =$10/hour.

Yet, many of our top arbiters (such as Garry Bekker who is in my opinion - the best arbiter in Australia) are well-educated professionals. I feel that such people do it for the love of the game rather than for $10/hour.

lost
08-11-2009, 10:03 PM
I'd rather a yes/ no to my original - as it tends to cut to the heart of the matter.

As for the rest of your post, I might as well say that I have run a newspaper in for a couple of days :eek: It proves nothing.

Of further edification (for someone who has clearly never been anywhere near business), in the last month, I have received (through my business) appeals/ personal approaches from The Smith Family, the Cerebral Palsy League, The Spinal Injuries Association and the Cancer Foundation's Children's Christmas Appeal for funds. Had I received a request from the local bowls club to chip in $100, I would have politely declined. This is not say that all businesses would decline, but to suggest that the first four approached would accept is frankly a waste of

- bandwidth
- my time
- other readers' intelligence, and
- your reputation

I suggest you return to the sweet land of theoretical nod and spout your nonsense to those unable to discern a dribbler from a hundred paces.



Gunner,

Are you saying that I have no intelligence at all?

lost

Basil
08-11-2009, 10:12 PM
Gunner,

Are you saying that I have no intelligence at all?

lost
I don't know you and you may be very intelligent. It's your commercial nous (for want of a better word) I'm doubting. I'm regularly amazed at people with little or no commercial experience commentating on same.

lost
08-11-2009, 10:30 PM
I don't know you and you may be very intelligent. It's your commercial nous (for want of a better word) I'm doubting. I'm regularly amazed at people with little or no commercial experience commentating on same.

Very true there Gunner. I don't know you and you don't know me. How about we leave it at that and at the end of the day you Gunner have different opinions to mine.

lost

Basil
08-11-2009, 10:54 PM
Very true there Gunner. I don't know you and you don't know me. How about we leave it at that and at the end of the day you Gunner have different opinions to mine.

lost
Agreed.

lost
08-11-2009, 11:10 PM
Jamie, I do not think so. I am sure there are cases of some Radio stations securing 1m worth of sponsorship or more but i doubt - every single station can secure that much. Would it be the case - community radio stations would not struggle for survival (and as far as i know some of them are struggling).



Michael, I can tell you now that all community radio stations and even community television stations are stuffed anyway unless they get a digital license which the federal government needs to give but won't.

lost

road runner
09-11-2009, 09:28 AM
Trying to get sponsorship for a DOP must be harder than getting sponsorship for prizes. I mean, it's not very presitious for the business is it.

First Prize $1000 (brought to you by XYZ business)
vs
Arbiter FABC (brought to you by XYZ business)

or to get multiple small donations

Best girl U1200 $100 (brought to you by XYZ business)
vs
Arbiter FABC (brought to you by partial subsidies of XYZ business, JohnQ business, Acme business)


Which sounds better?

Phil Bourke
09-11-2009, 11:04 AM
I wouldn't even approach it from the view of getting a sponsor for the arbiter, I would just take that expense out of the overall sponsorship amount as an expense. The immediate trade off being that an arbiter would decrease the prizemoney pool. Any way I look at it, from a small weekender such as Blayney, it detracts from the tournament to be giving up half of the first prize to have a 'qualified' arbiter. This is because I think the players are willing to accept less of an arbiter for more prizemoney. In my limited experience, a less qualified arbiter, i.e. one of the organisers, is able to do the job providing they are conscious of the more experienced players in the field to ask for advice if they strike a problem that is beyond their experience or knowledge fields.
I have seen it happen at both the Blayney and Dubbo tournaments where the arbiters are just that, members of the organising committee and I think they have usually arrived at the correct decision/s when needed.

So while conceding that arbiters are in deed worthy of being paid, that the arbiters may need to realise that ordinary weekenders aren't the same as prime time events, and as such there needs to be consideration of what they are asking of the organisers in return for their services.

Perhaps one day we may get what we all want. Arbiters getting $100 per round, players getting $10,000 for first prize in a weekender, and organisers having 80-100 players all glad to pay $100 to play in a weekender, but the times and economics don't currently permit it, so we have to remain in the land of reality and continue on as best we can.

road runner
09-11-2009, 11:27 AM
I wouldn't even approach it from the view of getting a sponsor for the arbiter, I would just take that expense out of the overall sponsorship amount as an expense.My thoughts exactly.

MichaelBaron
09-11-2009, 05:24 PM
I think given how small the arbiter fees are anyway, rather than ask for money some people would probably be happy to settle for non-cash rewards. For instance, i would happily take things like free club membership for a year . in exchange for my arbiting services. Or how about chess book vouchers, free tournament entries etc. I think as of now, In australia - chess arbiting is not really a profession (unfortunately though)

Thunderspirit
09-11-2009, 05:30 PM
I think given how small the arbiter fees are anyway, rather than ask for money some people would probably be happy to settle for non-cash rewards. For instance, i would happily take things like free club membership for a year . in exchange for my arbiting services. Or how about chess book vouchers, free tournament entries etc. I think as of now, In australia - chess arbiting is not really a profession (unfortunately though)


Michael, I wouldn't except barter for my normal job, so I wouldn't normally accept it as a DOP either. Good for you, if that suits for you.

ER
09-11-2009, 07:03 PM
Michael, I would except barter for my normal job,

Thunder you mean you wouldn't yeah???

Thunderspirit
09-11-2009, 09:43 PM
Thunder you mean you wouldn't yeah???


Thanks for that... I think everyone got my point though...

ER
09-11-2009, 09:50 PM
Thanks for that... I think everyone got my point though...

Yep, I did; I just wanted to make sure there were no missinterpretations by anyone though because I consider this discussion and your contribution to it as very very serious and important for Australian Chess!

Thunderspirit
09-11-2009, 10:07 PM
Yep, I did; I just wanted to make sure there were no missinterpretations by anyone though because I consider this discussion and your contribution to it as very very serious and important for Australian Chess!


That was the most wonderful, kind (and seriously underserved rap) I've had in ages. My shout for a free drink at Doeberl...

Igor_Goldenberg
10-11-2009, 03:22 PM
Arbiter for a prestigious event is a serious job and should be paid accordingly.
Unfortunately, organisers of chess event often cannot afford to pay what arbiters deserve and have to rely on voluntary/semi-voluntary (when arbiters accept lower pay) assistance.

Btw, I only played once in a tournament with Lee as an arbiter, but still have very fond memories:) :)

ER
10-11-2009, 03:58 PM
That was the most wonderful, kind (and seriously underserved rap) I've had in ages. My shout for a free drink at Doeberl...

Thanks Thunder, shout proposal accepted, (an orange juice or a coffee will do since I do not drink alcohol) and we can have a nice chat during it! :)

Thunderspirit
10-11-2009, 08:24 PM
I agree with the comments which have stated that a potential sponsor would not all look kindly on their sponsorship going to pay a DOP. Not only is there little advertising value, many businesses would see this as a organiser (who is often the DOP) as pocketing their cash.

Sponsoring individual players, only really works in big events. If I was running an IM Norm Round Robin saying you have IM (Enter Name) sponsored by Company XYZ I think is better than for a weekender.

One suggestion was having lots of little sponsors for 'best woman' etc. This also makes things hard, as all sponsors want their fair share of time, and if there are four sponsors, (for example, with small amounts) it might make it hard. Also you need to be careful that the businesses are too closely related. Joe's Butchery and Susan's Hairdresses are fine, but a cafe and a restaurant, or a Computer and other IT provider is likely to cause friction.

From my experience, I really suck at getting sponsorship and as a result I don't consider myself an organiser, only at some level an aribter. I've always wanted to run an IM Norm event, but ideally you need $3K-5K in sponsorship and that has always been beyond me.

Jamie, I agree with Rowena. If you can manage to get a cafe to sponsor an event at MCC, then good for you. You would certainally be better than me. I would have a plan of how their (sponsors) dollars are going to beneift the them. Not just naming rights, but 'selling' the business, by endorsing what they do.

I've strayed some what from my original intentions, which was to talk about DOP wages. I have to accept at some level that wages are what they are, and although they aren't so good, they aren't likely to go up in a hurry.

I've been offered to do Doeberl Cup next year (already), and I haven't decided either way. It's a great event, there is no doubt there.