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Patrick Byrom
22-04-2021, 03:49 PM
I'm posting this on a separate thread, as it has nothing to do with Australian Chess History!


... Can anyone give the name of a third sport that has rating prizes? Pat Byrom game me Bridge, which has more money than God, so can afford them. I'm guessing there are about 130 recognised sports worldwide. I have found 2 with rating prizes. All you have to do to shut me up is find another 5 or 6. That should get you typing!Not all sports have rating systems like chess. However, if by 'rating prizes' you mean 'prizes which are not awarded solely based on placing', then many sports have these. In the Canberra Marathon, there are age group prizes (https://www.solemotive.com/pages/canberra-times-marathon-festival-10k). The Sydney to Hobart yacht race has handicap winners. Golf also has a handicap system - as do tennis and croquet (http://www.brookfieldtennis.com/about-us/tennis-handicaps-overview.174.html). That's five!

The aim of all these is the same - to encourage participation by weaker players. Most team sports also have separate divisions based on strength or age, so that weaker teams can win prizes even if they can't beat the best teams.

pappubahry
22-04-2021, 04:54 PM
Most team sports also have separate divisions based on strength or age, so that weaker teams can win prizes even if they can't beat the best teams.

I think it would be rare for there to be prizemoney in non-elite divisions though?

MichaelBaron
22-04-2021, 05:08 PM
Imagine ''rating prizes'' in Tennis. Other sports (e.g. tennis) have some separate tournaments run for weaker players...but there is usually nothing that stops stronger players from entering. e.g strong tennis players sometimes play local sattelite events.

Desmond
22-04-2021, 11:13 PM
In the Canberra Marathon, there are age group prizes (https://www.solemotive.com/pages/canberra-times-marathon-festival-10k). That's the 10k and not the marathon. The marathon has a minimum age of 18 and there are no rating prizes. The age prizes in the 10k are medals. They are certainly not 3-figure cash sums.

I guess if you were to draw a parallel from chess ratings to running, it would be based on a runner's personal best (PB). Eg if you had a PB for the 10k of 63 mins, that would that would put you into a "rating" category for 60-70 mins. Of course, prizes like this simply do not exist.

Garvinator
22-04-2021, 11:57 PM
Golf does not pay cash at the amateur level. In fact, there is a very clear line between being a Professional and being an Amateur.

If a player has a handicap, then they are an amateur and they can not accept any form of cash prize. So any form of club competition they play hands out medals, certificates, bar vouchers and the like. These prizes certainly are divided based on handicap, but there are no cash prizes.

Professionals do not have a handicap and their tournaments are played for prize money. There are different tours, based on the playing ability of the player and previous ranking from the previous year. At each tournament, the professional golfer gets paid if they make the weekend (the cut). If they do not make the cut, they go home without pay.

Make the cut and then they receive prize money dependant on their final placing.

Patrick Byrom
23-04-2021, 12:07 AM
I guess if you were to draw a parallel from chess ratings to running, it would be based on a runner's personal best (PB). Eg if you had a PB for the 10k of 63 mins, that would that would put you into a "rating" category for 60-70 mins. Of course, prizes like this simply do not exist.Doesn't the Stawell Gift work something like this?

Patrick Byrom
23-04-2021, 12:26 AM
I'm not disputing the points - made by people with more knowledge of various sports than myself! - that several sports at an amateur level do not have cash prizes. Although I was very careful never to claim that they do :)

However, it seems to me that the reason most of these sports don't offer cash prizes is in order to allow people to preserve their amateur status. Since there is no distinction between amateur and professional chess players in Australia, that is not a reason to avoid cash prizes in chess.

And according to these guidelines (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:H6N5CMOqzSMJ:https://www.randa.org/~/media/linksdocs/guidelinesonprizes.ashx+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au), an amateur golfer may win prizes up to the value of £500!

Desmond
23-04-2021, 09:41 AM
I'm not disputing the points - made by people with more knowledge of various sports than myself! - that several sports at an amateur level do not have cash prizes. Although I was very careful never to claim that they do :)As per my original comment in the other thread, please do give them small prizes such as medals, books or lessons. But not cash prizes. Consistent with other, more successful sports.


However, it seems to me that the reason most of these sports don't offer cash prizes is ...Why does there need to be any reason at all to not give them? Not giving them should be the default position.

Kerry Corker
23-04-2021, 10:05 AM
Thanks for that Patrick.
"weaker" is not the correct word here.
The smaller boats in the Sydney to Hobart are in a different make or build category. It is not possible for them to get out of their category, ever. They are not weaker.
A tug boat is not weaker than an oil tanker if you are trying to manoeuvre a cruise liner.
They don't spend half their life trying to stay at 1599, when all they have to do to progress to 1601, is a bit of study.
The boats are stuck in their category because of design, not laziness.

A hacker like me, who took up the game at 23, got to 2049 FIDE in a couple of years. It was not complicated. It was not beyond my ken.
It was simply by hard work. No talent whatsoever. Just plain HARD work.
I could have decided to stay at 1799 and collect rating prizes. But then I would have just been part of the problem. And I tried to be part of the solution.

Age group prizes are not the same as rating prizes. You don't see the same kids getting up to collect their U10 prize year after year after year after year.

In Bridge, what percentage of assets would their yearly ratings prize payouts be? Keep in mind the Bridge Club in which the Brisbane Club plays in and pays rent to, has to be worth 10 to 15 million dollars if pulled down and developed into 10-15 stories, probably much more. It is stone's throw from the Gabba. Prime Australian real estate. And they own it. And that is just one Bridge Club out of how many in Australia. What about the RE owned by Sydney Bridge Clubs?
For us rating prizes are a significant part of National turnover.
For Bridge - pencil bill for the year - at best.

A handicap system, as in golf or horse racing is designed to make the result unpredictable.
No one is going to bet on horses if there are no handicaps such as weight or good or bad barrier.
A lot of club chess comps in the late 1800s in Australia were handicap events. The best player probably gave knight odds to the weaker player.
I don't see any connection between giving knight odds and paying the same old players year in and year out NOT to improve their chess.

I will shut up about this if you can find 5 or 6 sport associations who have rating prizes as a good proportion of assets/income etc per year, AND ARE SUCCESSFUL.

That would mean rating prizes would be a cornerstone of their business success.
McDonalds would not be very successful if they didn't sell hamburgers, a significant part of their sales.
So if you take the burgers out of the equation, they might go broke.
If you take rating prizes out of the tournament equation (with no loss to organisers) and give it to the ACF, Australian Chess benefits.
What's that? We might lose a few players - good riddance.
A Hundred new clients get dumped by Australian Chess EVERY YEAR at Year 12. EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

To clarify; I suggest the rating prize money allocated for tournaments Australia wide each year (20k) is to be paid directly to the ACF instead of the same old timers.

It does not cost the tournament organiser one cent. And will result in more players down the track. The players are there for the well organised event.
No one can seriously suggest that chess players are there because they want to pay $100 entry, spend a whole weekend working at their games, and somehow make money by getting a $200 rating prize. Better off joining the IMs driving Ubers or taxis if you want to make money.
If they are doing it because they are there to lose money, they should be at the casino.
What are they there for? And this is what every one has lost of sight of. They are there to play chess.

Sorry Patrick, you won't get rid of me that easily. But I do appreciate you taking the time to worry/debate about Australian Chess and its financial structure.
I think there are about 3 of us now.

We could form a TEAM!

Desmond
23-04-2021, 12:12 PM
To clarify; I suggest the rating prize money allocated for tournaments Australia wide each year (20k) is to be paid directly to the ACF instead of the same old timers.Or just the organisers use it to improve the events and run more of them.

For example, like 99.9% of chess players, I live online and play most of my chess online. I read chess websites everyday. I have NEVER seen an online ad for a chess tournament near me. There's a Gold Cup next weekend. There's hundreds of thousands of people watching the Candidates. How many of them have no idea that there's an OTB tournament, and might play in it if they did? It's worth a try.

Contrast, I ran the canberra marathon about 7 years ago. I see ads about it all the time. On websites, in my email, you name it. Running stores, shoes, watches, you name it. The Gold Cup, I would never have heard of if I didn't visit the CAQ site and post it here.


No one can seriously suggest that chess players are there because they want to pay $100 entry, spend a whole weekend working at their games, and somehow make money by getting a $200 rating prize. Better off joining the IMs driving Ubers or taxis if you want to make money.
If they are doing it because they are there to lose money, they should be at the casino.
What are they there for? And this is what every one has lost of sight of. They are there to play chess.Exactly. Play because you want to! If you are 1599 and you perform at 1800 or beat a 1900-player well done! The performance is its own reward.

Kerry Corker
23-04-2021, 12:17 PM
[post moved from Anzac Day weekender thread - mod]

So we cannot afford to waive entry fee for FMs but we can afford to pay rating prizes?
Nik Stawski had to get his chess up to the level where he competed very well for his rating in an Oceana Zonal (not sure of spelling) before he got his FM title.
But if someone can keep their rating at 1599, they can be paid money?!

FM Craig Laird won the Qld Championships several times and is one of the best chess trainer/coaches I have ever seen.
And yet when he asks for a waive of entry fee in Qld. "No, sorry, we need the money for the same old guys who keep their rating at 1799."

I'm not having a go at anyone here. Just seems like everything is upside down. Maybe I'm upside down?

Kevin Bonham
23-04-2021, 12:29 PM
Thread moved

Thread moved to General Chess as the discussion is clearly focused on a debate about whether chess should have ratings prizes. Feel free to continue discussing ratings prizes in other sports despite the thread being in the chess section.

Any discussion of this move may occur in the Help and Feedback section only.

Kevin Bonham
23-04-2021, 01:39 PM
So we cannot afford to waive entry fee for FMs but we can afford to pay rating prizes?

"Zonal FM" cases are a very good reason why entry fees should not be waived for FMs. Why should some players who are rated under 2000 receive free entry to events over and over again for one performance where they happened to gain an FM title from a Zonal under lax FIDE title rules that no longer exist? At least with a ratings prize the player has to actually pay their entry fee in order to have a shot at winning it.

Patrick Byrom
23-04-2021, 02:01 PM
As per my original comment in the other thread, please do give them small prizes such as medals, books or lessons. But not cash prizes. Consistent with other, more successful sports.I'm not clear of the link here. How exactly would replacing cash rating prizes with non-cash rating prizes lead to chess being more successful? Would more players enter weekenders if there were smaller rating prizes? Clubs would have more money (presumably), but the major clubs I'm familiar with are already doing okay, so the small amount of extra money (maybe $1000 per year?) would not make a huge difference.


Why does there need to be any reason at all to not give them? Not giving them should be the default position.The reason organisers give them is obvious - they are worried that if they don't, their tournaments won't be as popular. Are there any significant open events in Australia that don't offer cash rating prizes?

If you or Kerry want to run a weekender at the Brisbane Club with no cash rating prizes, to prove that they can be successful, you're welcome to do so. Because (and this is something I've learnt from physics!) ultimately the only way to decide between two competing theories is to determine which one applies in the real world.

Patrick Byrom
23-04-2021, 02:19 PM
If the aim of abolishing cash rating prizes is to generate more money, which Kerry seems to be implying, then there is a much simpler solution. The CAQ membership fee is currently $20. With about 600 members, raising it to $30 would generate about $6 000, which is probably about the same amount that abolishing cash rating fees would produce (let's say 10 weekenders with an average of $600 in rating prizes each). And (as any economist will tell you) the membership fee increase is a flat 'tax', which would have fewer distorting effects than the more specific 'tax' of eliminating cash rating prizes.

Of course, decisions about rating prizes and who receives free entry to their events are made by individual clubs. State organisations could subsidise entry (as the CAQ already does with GMs and IMs), but it's hard to see how a state body could force a club to abolish cash rating prizes.

Afitz
23-04-2021, 02:19 PM
Even if you replace cash prizes with lessons and/or books, these still have a cost attached to them, especially in the case of lessons where you may be paying close to as much again.

Desmond
23-04-2021, 02:19 PM
I'm not clear of the link here. How exactly would replacing cash rating prizes with non-cash rating prizes lead to chess being more successful? Would more players enter weekenders if there were smaller rating prizes? Clubs would have more money (presumably), but the major clubs I'm familiar with are already doing okay, so the small amount of extra money (maybe $1000 per year?) would not make a huge difference.They could use the freed up money to improve their event such as by advertising, or in other ways. Also if tournaments are more profitable then organisers are more likely to run more of them.


The reason organisers give them is obvious - they are worried that if they don't, their tournaments won't be as popular. Are there any significant open events in Australia that don't offer cash rating prizes?
As I said this is just cultural. People expect rating prizes because they've always had them. No one expects them in other sports that have never had them.


If you or Kerry want to run a weekender at the Brisbane Club with no cash rating prizes, to prove that they can be successful, you're welcome to do so. Because (and this is something I've learnt from physics!) ultimately the only way to decide between two competing theories is to determine which one applies in the real world.It would be interesting to see who would play. For instance as I recently demonstrated there are a lot of low-rated active players who are eligible for rating prizes, then few in the tier that exists that is too high for rating prizes and too low for outright prizes, and then a lot in the higher tiers that can expect a placing. Perhaps those people might come back if weaker players stopped getting cash prizes. Who knows.

Desmond
23-04-2021, 02:25 PM
Even if you replace cash prizes with lessons and/or books, these still have a cost attached to them, especially in the case of lessons where you may be paying close to as much again.

Not really, a medal costs you chicken feed. The point is they are low value prizes. Make it 50% off a lesson if you want. When I did coaching I often gave the first lesson free to get the student.

Shaun94
23-04-2021, 02:45 PM
Not really, a medal costs you chicken feed. The point is they are low value prizes. Make it 50% off a lesson if you want. When I did coaching I often gave the first lesson free to get the student.

You're missing the point here.... medals and trophies are often used as prizes. Books and lessons a lot less and those are the ones being discussed which do come at a higher cost.

I run a large number of events for multiple companies/organisations and have a good understanding of prize structures. The question I have for you and many others on chesschat is what is your level of involvement? What qualifications do you have in terms of experience, involvement and current knowledge on the matters of chess in 2021?

From my understanding many posters on here have a lot to say yet do nothing. Little involvement and understanding on how the chess community is.

I appreciate Kerry's points as he is trying to create discussion more than anything else. Whether he is right or wrong isn't all that important to me. He has been there and done it, I know this first hand. He also didn't jump on and comment on things until recently now he is involved again through Redcliffe cc and caq archiving.

So again I ask the question, what involvement do you have?

Desmond
23-04-2021, 03:04 PM
You're missing the point here.... medals and trophies are often used as prizes. Books and lessons a lot less and those are the ones being discussed which do come at a higher cost. Well as the one who actually raised the idea, I said trophies, books or lessons. In that order.


I run a large number of events for multiple companies/organisations and have a good understanding of prize structures. The question I have for you and many others on chesschat is what is your level of involvement? What qualifications do you have in terms of experience, involvement and current knowledge on the matters of chess in 2021?

From my understanding many posters on here have a lot to say yet do nothing. Little involvement and understanding on how the chess community is.

I appreciate Kerry's points as he is trying to create discussion more than anything else. Whether he is right or wrong isn't all that important to me. He has been there and done it, I know this first hand. He also didn't jump on and comment on things until recently now he is involved again through Redcliffe cc and caq archiving.

So again I ask the question, what involvement do you have?
I used to play OTB a lot, not much anymore. I coached for a while, not anymore. I volunteered for a while, not anymore.
So yeah shoot the messenger, why would you want to listen to ideas from someone like that.

Patrick Byrom
23-04-2021, 03:22 PM
... So yeah shoot the messenger, why would you want to listen to ideas from someone like that.[RANT MODE ON!] Ideas are not the problem - lots of people have ideas about what should be done. Some are very good, others not so good. But ideas are useless without people prepared to implement them. An organiser who eliminates cash rating prizes is taking a big risk. It would be very helpful if someone is prepared to run such an event to demonstrate that it won't be a disastrous failure, and I've offered to support that. Without a practical test, it's just another idea.

In my opinion - and I'm sure that Shaun and Andrew and Kevin (and every other organiser!) would agree - what chess needs most is not more ideas, or even more money (though a lot more money would help!), but more people prepared to do the actual work. [RANT MODE OFF!]

Shaun94
23-04-2021, 03:32 PM
I agree with Patrick, everyone has ideas I hear them from parents, coaches, players other organisers etc. Open dialogue with ideas etc are great. I urge those with such ideas to get involved whether it be a local club, caq, acf whatever but those who consistently throw up ideas without being involved or having a go get tiring. I'm sure you did many great things however with chess looking towards the future id be more interested in hearing what you currently do and what you're willing to do going forward.

Hearing back in my day stories although experience can be beneficial aren't overly valued at the moment.

Many people here on chesschat use it for drama and entertainment without actually doing anything for Australian chess beyond their keyboard and adding their opinion.

Desmond/road runner or Brian Thomas or whoever you are (don't really care) it's great that you have many ideas and opinions. Are you interested in getting involved in chess again (OTB or admin)? I'm sure a local club would love to hear from you. Alternatively maybe caq or acf? These would be constructive ways for you to assist in the betterment of chess which is what we would all love to see.

Shaun94
23-04-2021, 03:35 PM
[RANT MODE ON!] Ideas are not the problem - lots of people have ideas about what should be done. Some are very good, others not so good. But ideas are useless without people prepared to implement them. An organiser who eliminates cash rating prizes is taking a big risk. It would be very helpful if someone is prepared to run such an event to demonstrate that it won't be a disastrous failure, and I've offered to support that. Without a practical test, it's just another idea.

In my opinion - and I'm sure that Shaun and Andrew and Kevin (and every other organiser!) would agree - what chess needs most is not more ideas, or even more money (though a lot more money would help!), but more people prepared to do the actual work. [RANT MODE OFF!]

Would Brisbane chess club be interested in running a weekender along those lines? I would be happy to assist in the promotion of such an event and I think the results (entries) would be great data moving forward.

Desmond
23-04-2021, 04:04 PM
[RANT MODE ON!] Not really sure why you guys are so triggered, it's just a discussion.


Are you interested in getting involved in chess again (OTB or admin)? I'm sure a local club would love to hear from you.Yeah I mean I've played in I think 3 or 4 tournaments with 2 clubs over the last 6 months or so, is that enough or do I need to work in chess full time to qualify to chat on a forum called chesschat?

Afitz
23-04-2021, 04:11 PM
Not really sure why you guys are so triggered, it's just a discussion.

Yeah I mean I've played in I think 3 or 4 tournaments with 2 clubs over the last 6 months or so, is that enough or do I need to work in chess full time to qualify to chat on a forum called chesschat?

I think the point Shaun was trying to make was to get involved in an administration capacity. At many clubs, the same people who have been running things for 10+ years are still the ones shouldering the workload :) Of course you may not have the time to do that, and that is fine, but the more people who can help across the board the better.

Afitz
23-04-2021, 04:24 PM
They could use the freed up money to improve their event such as by advertising, or in other ways. Also if tournaments are more profitable then organisers are more likely to run more of them.

As I said this is just cultural. People expect rating prizes because they've always had them. No one expects them in other sports that have never had them.

It would be interesting to see who would play. For instance as I recently demonstrated there are a lot of low-rated active players who are eligible for rating prizes, then few in the tier that exists that is too high for rating prizes and too low for outright prizes, and then a lot in the higher tiers that can expect a placing. Perhaps those people might come back if weaker players stopped getting cash prizes. Who knows.

In terms of cultural as prizes have always been offered, I would agree with that. I've been playing and administrating for 25 odd years and can clearly remember picking up rating group prizes when I was younger....they were a huge incentive. Knowing the teenagers we have currently around SEQ, a large number of them wouldn't play without the chance to win some money...trophies don't mean anything, and given they already tend to have coaches in most cases, neither does the option of coaching whilst half of them are too lazy to read books.

Of course if it can be shown that running an event without these rating prizes will be successful in terms of finances, but more importantly the numbers, then organisers would look at running them. Weekenders don't tend to be run for profit though...many weekend events break even or maybe make a very small surplus.

Shaun94
23-04-2021, 04:26 PM
Showing up to occasional club nights well done, proud of you...

Are you able to assist in the implementation and necessary work required to see some of the ideas come to fruition?

I would love to see more people actively involved in chess (especially in Queensland). If you'd like assistance or advice in how to do so please reach out.

Until then ideas are just words with no motion or future. I hear many, I listen to everyone I can but to make a change you need more people putting in work. I understand many aren't able to help or simply not willing and that's okay too.

Patrick Byrom
23-04-2021, 04:28 PM
Not really sure why you guys are so triggered, it's just a discussion.Forty years of chess administration has that effect :(

Shaun94
23-04-2021, 04:28 PM
Not really sure why you guys are so triggered, it's just a discussion.

Yeah I mean I've played in I think 3 or 4 tournaments with 2 clubs over the last 6 months or so, is that enough or do I need to work in chess full time to qualify to chat on a forum called chesschat?

Also using terms like triggered are just an immature way to divert the attention of the points made. This generally done by young people and often as an attempt to troll, you're old and should probably just address the points rather than buzz words.

Sorry, hope you aren't TrIgGeReD though lol OK boomer.

Patrick Byrom
23-04-2021, 04:37 PM
Would Brisbane chess club be interested in running a weekender along those lines? I would be happy to assist in the promotion of such an event and I think the results (entries) would be great data moving forward.I completely support the Brisbane Club running weekenders of any type. The problem is finding people to do the hard work of organising one. I'm happy to assist, but I'm not prepared to do the bulk of the work.

Kerry Corker
23-04-2021, 04:51 PM
Yes but you are keeping the money in the chess tills for one more round. instead of cash going into a pocket, a coach gets 2 hours paid work coaching chess.

If you give a chess book, the money stays in the chess till for one more round. and the skills learned from the book make the player stronger.
And when the player gets stronger, they are going to need a stronger coach.

How does the coach get stronger, by playing in FIDE rated events that attract most of our GMs and IMs. I think the highest rated player in the forthcoming Anzac event is 2050.
How can they afford all those appearance fees? They no longer have to pay out rating prizes.

I'm happy if only 5k of the 20k goes back to the ACF. the rest the weekender entrepreneurs can add to the prize list.

Instead of 1st to 5th. Why not have 1st to 8th. So an FM sees this event with all these GMs and IMs and says, hey, maybe I can snare 8th place, which is $500.

And yes, it will become $500 for 8th place if we run it like a business instead of a ..
(I almost put Tuck Shop here. How stupid would that have been? That's run like a business also.)

Why don't we use the same business principles that the people running school teams use. Why not? It simply works.

Remind me again, how much are the rating prizes in our most successful events, that is school team's chess.

I'm going to guestimate a couple of thousand kids play school teams chess around Australia each year. With maybe 150 year 12s. We lose 135-140 of them each year.
Please correct me if my guesses are wrong.

Once again, I am not having a go at anyone on this forum. I am more than happy to see a few more people drift into this conversation.
And I need people to disagree with me.

Why did the Bay of Pigs fiasco happen. Because all the hand picked sock puppets in the room with the Kennedys all said,
"Yes sir, we think it is a very good idea to invade Cuba with a couple of hundred troops."
Yes, sir, all the locals are going to help us because they want the murdering, torturing Batista back so that the Mafia can have their casinos back."
And the rest is history.

Anyone in the room who disagreed with the Kennedys would have been blacklisted and gone back to whatever.

I spent 3 or 4 years with the QJCL and about 8 or 9 years with the CAQ.
Only position I did not hold on the CAQ was President. Not really a front of cave person.
I spent 2 years of my life as CAQ Secretary fighting a court case for the CAQ with $5,000 as a defence fund. One opinion cost us $500. And it was badly researched and wrong.

So I empathise with the unpaid ACF volunteers who probably give 10-30 hours each week of their lives to the game for free.
And they are doing a sterling job with what they have to work with.
Been there, done that. Don't want to do it that way again.

Why their time is less valuable and less worthy than the people on 1499 is beyond me. Which one does Australian Chess thinks is more worthy of payment?

Garvinator
23-04-2021, 04:57 PM
Not really sure why you guys are so triggered, it's just a discussion.
I think you have most of your answer with this quote, in particular with this throw away line 'it's just a discussion'. I would not be surprised if it was that line that got under some other respondents skin, without them realising how grating it read.

Whilst it may 'just be a discussion' for you, for all those who have, or are currently, been involved in running chess events, or running State Associations, or both, this is not, 'just a discussion'.

Decisions made carry real world consequences and so it is rather insulting to say, organisers should do x, y or z, unless you have a history of actually organising events yourself.

This does not preclude someone from partaking in this type of conversation, but they really should think about their suggestions before making them.

Another item that probably has caused some offence to some- this type of 'helpful advice' is given so often that it really does start to get annoying after a while.

And as those who are now involved in chess organisation are replying, great, love the ideas, do you want to help implement them, no, oh come on, why not? What, too hard, can't be bothered, looks too much like hard work, I just want to play and not have to give that up to organise, I am just offering suggestions but I want someone else to do all the heavy lifting.

It really does become like a word track conversation for chess organisers after a while.

Desmond
23-04-2021, 08:27 PM
I think you have most of your answer with this quote, in particular with this throw away line 'it's just a discussion'.
Garvin, honestly I have no idea, your guess is as good as mine.

Except, before the time I made the "triggered" comment, Shaun had already decided to enter the thread with an ad hominem attack on me (#19 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479683&viewfull=1#post479683)). No pretense of any discussion on the thread topic. Just a pure ad hominem, nothing else. I said nothing about Shaun, before or since. I criticised nothing he has done. No specific event, no business, nothing.

May I ask for your opinion on something? Let's say you have a person who has been away from OTB chess for a while and is starting to come back. Is this the sort of reception you think they would like to receive?

Showing up to occasional club nights well done, proud of you...
Surely these are the sort of person you actually want to start playing again.

I'm not even sure what to say about the next one. It's pretty funny coming from someone who contributes nothing to the thread topic, but leads with and consistently pursues a strategy of naming and shaming someone who dares to compare chess to other sports. Here's a hint: if you're tetchy about comparing chess to other sports, don't read threads about it!


Also using terms like triggered are just an immature way to divert the attention of the points made. This generally done by young people and often as an attempt to troll, you're old and should probably just address the points rather than buzz words.

Sorry, hope you aren't TrIgGeReD though lol OK boomer.I'm right behind Kerry though. I reckon he's onto a winner here.

Shaun94
23-04-2021, 11:52 PM
Garvin, honestly I have no idea, your guess is as good as mine.

Except, before the time I made the "triggered" comment, Shaun had already decided to enter the thread with an ad hominem attack on me (#19 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479683&viewfull=1#post479683)). No pretense of any discussion on the thread topic. Just a pure ad hominem, nothing else. I said nothing about Shaun, before or since. I criticised nothing he has done. No specific event, no business, nothing.

May I ask for your opinion on something? Let's say you have a person who has been away from OTB chess for a while and is starting to come back. Is this the sort of reception you think they would like to receive?

Surely these are the sort of person you actually want to start playing again.

I'm not even sure what to say about the next one. It's pretty funny coming from someone who contributes nothing to the thread topic, but leads with and consistently pursues a strategy of naming and shaming someone who dares to compare chess to other sports. Here's a hint: if you're tetchy about comparing chess to other sports, don't read threads about it!

I'm right behind Kerry though. I reckon he's onto a winner here.

I had entered the thread after reading the absurd ideas and suggestions from a has been who does nothing for Queensland chess development other than criticise. You are still standing from the outside throwing "ideas" rather than doing anything at all.

I do regularly encourage former players to return to the game at a club level and to regular weekend events. I do not encourage them to criticise things they know little about though.

Compare chess to other sports that fine compare it to whatever you want it doesn't bother me but please do implement these great ideas you have. Don't just stand from the side line throwing shade.

As far as I'm concerned you're the past of chess in qld as many others are. Without change, adaptation or the willingness to work towards something you will be left behind with your chesschat rants.

I was not at any stage trying to deter you from playing I wish you all the best in fact I hope one day we play I think it would be fun.

Kerry Corker
24-04-2021, 12:46 AM
I'mm guessing the ACF was aware of all conditions for the oceania. It would have only gone ahead with their blessing, if that is the right word. Those people played under the rules agreed to by fide and ACF. They were awarded the title by fide. No problems so far. Then those on high changed the rules. When Patton took Messina, I think it was, he was told not to take it and leave it for monty. He replied, "Ask them if they want me to give it back." If the recipients of those titles tried to give them back, it would have implied that those on high did not know what they were doing. Of course they knew what they were doing. Bottom line is, it is our entry level belt, if you like. And you're right they are a lot weaker than a GM. But they earned their title under the rules of the day. That is all you can do.

Shaun94
24-04-2021, 08:58 AM
When it comes to rating prizes and whether they should be offered or not I think there should be a test done at some stage to check viability.

Gardiner chess seen a consistent decline in numbers before increasing prize money some time ago this included rating prizes.

The only way I could see this working would be if ALL clubs, companies, organisers etc agreed to abolish them or replace them with non monetary items collectively. If even 1 organiser did not agree to this the idea would likely struggle as players would pick and choose where they play to maximise chance of prize money.

I have had similar discussions in the past with Geoff Butler who explained he did not agree with or like the idea of prize money for junior events. I understand his opinion on the matter however if 10 tournaments are being run and 9 of them have cash prizes your event is the lonely one that does not you will struggle to get the top players or the overall numbers in many cases.

I know of a very strong former QLD junior that funded his chess coaching, tournament entry, interstate and international travel from playing 1 day rapid events with a large prize fund. Granted he was playing for 1st in most cases rather than rating prizes but he most certainly would not have played such events without the financial incentive.

Desmond
24-04-2021, 08:59 AM
absurd ideas and suggestions from a has been who does nothing ...
you're the past of chess in qld Yeah thanks for that. So anyway in another attempt to get you back to the thread topic, let's try a little segue.

Since you raised volunteering, as it happens I've done a little volunteering for other sports that we can compare to chess.

For instance, local swimming club near me typically they get well over 100 swimmers on a club night. As many kids training morning and night through the week. They do not give swimmers cash rating prizes. Swimmers care about their PBs. They get a number of points for each swim depending on how it compares to their PB. Points are aggregated through the season. This is quite a nice approach, beacuse basically a weaker, improving swimmer can often amass points by improving consistently thoughout the season. Ultimate prizes are trophies, not cash.

Little athletics has a very similar structure. Points based on if you improved your PB. Trophy prizes. One thing they do which is a good thing IMO is they just charge you for the whole season (few hundred $$) which includes the weekly club nights and 2 weekly training sessions.

Shaun94
24-04-2021, 09:13 AM
Yeah thanks for that. So anyway in another attempt to get you back to the thread topic, let's try a little segue.

Again not addressing any of the points I made (just picking and choosing parts to reply to that are aimed at you not the topic...), if you see the post prior to yours it was very much on topic.

Anyway glad your local swim club is doing well, the Junior chess club that I ran on Tuesday afternoons for sometime followed a similar model with trophies given to children for accumulation of points across a term. Holiday chess programs I run follow the same format but these are coaching style junior clubs rather than weekend events and have a very different structure to the tournaments discussed here.

I don't know if adults or teenagers would appreciate the same prizes, as I said a test would need to be done.

Also glad to hear you volunteer for other activities, that's great could you do the same in terms of chess administration would you be willing to assist a local club as an organiser/arbiter? Potentially come to a caq meeting share your ideas with a plan of how you would assist in the implementation?

I'm all for more people on board so how can I assist you in joining in and doing things for QLD/Australian chess?

Kevin Bonham
25-04-2021, 10:29 AM
I'mm guessing the ACF was aware of all conditions for the oceania. It would have only gone ahead with their blessing, if that is the right word.

That's not correct; the ACF had no control over FIDE's decisions concerning soft titles for our region, beyond in theory having 1 vote out of 150-odd if it came to an attempt to vote it down on the floor of the General Assembly. More recently we have opposed proposed expansions of soft titles in our region - I've spoken against some of the sillier proposals in FIDE Commission meetings.

Players who earned titles in these events earned them fair and square under the rules put in place by FIDE at the time and the titles are theirs to keep for life. However, FM titles and below do not reliably correspond with playing skill and there is no reason to give a player free entry to an event automatically because they hold one of these titles. Indeed to do so is an insult to considerably stronger players who have not quite reached 2300 but who did not obtain one of these Zonal titles.

Kevin Bonham
25-04-2021, 10:37 AM
Posts moved

As best I can, posts regarding proposed restructuring of chess and not having much bearing on ratings prizes have been moved to a new thread here:

http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18436-Aus-chess-restructure-discussions-(sf-ratings-prizes)

This might (or might not) be merged with an existing restructure thread later.

It is somewhat difficult to know where to draw lines in moving this stuff because the discussion is jumping around a lot.

Any comments on moving of posts etc can be made in the Help and Feedback section only - do not reply to this post on this thread.

MichaelBaron
25-04-2021, 02:34 PM
If the aim of abolishing cash rating prizes is to generate more money, which Kerry seems to be implying, then there is a much simpler solution. The CAQ membership fee is currently $20. With about 600 members, raising it to $30 would generate about $6 000, which is probably about the same amount that abolishing cash rating fees would produce (let's say 10 weekenders with an average of $600 in rating prizes each). And (as any economist will tell you) the membership fee increase is a flat 'tax', which would have fewer distorting effects than the more specific 'tax' of eliminating cash rating prizes.

Of course, decisions about rating prizes and who receives free entry to their events are made by individual clubs. State organisations could subsidise entry (as the CAQ already does with GMs and IMs), but it's hard to see how a state body could force a club to abolish cash rating prizes.

I do not see how a state body can actually advice/regulate prize money/entry fees in the clubs in the first place

MichaelBaron
25-04-2021, 02:37 PM
That's not correct; the ACF had no control over FIDE's decisions concerning soft titles for our region, beyond in theory having 1 vote out of 150-odd if it came to an attempt to vote it down on the floor of the General Assembly. More recently we have opposed proposed expansions of soft titles in our region - I've spoken against some of the sillier proposals in FIDE Commission meetings.

Players who earned titles in these events earned them fair and square under the rules put in place by FIDE at the time and the titles are theirs to keep for life. However, FM titles and below do not reliably correspond with playing skill and there is no reason to give a player free entry to an event automatically because they hold one of these titles. Indeed to do so is an insult to considerably stronger players who have not quite reached 2300 but who did not obtain one of these Zonal titles.

Exactly! This why clubs should be considering not only titles but also other factors such fide rating. Likewise, with all due respect to WFM and WIM titles and political correctness that surrounds them...holders of those titles are often not even among the top players in the field.

Kerry Corker
25-04-2021, 04:42 PM
Michael and raising CAQ fees.
I am already under witness protection for suggesting removing the 11th commandment, "thou shalt pay people for playing chess badly".
After all when your dentist pulled out the wrong tooth, you still paid him, I presume?

And now you want me to suggest raising CAQ fees?! When I was helping to run the Belmont Junior Club in 1992/3 we had a vote with the kids as to whether we put the fees up from $3 to $4 so we could get FM Craig Laird to do specialist coaching. They voted to raise to $4. The kids did that.
My local adult club charges $3 per night in 2021.

1992/3 $4
2021 $3

People are analysing all these ideas with their chess caps on. People need to put their business caps on.
Because it is chess - we pay for a job done badly.
Because it is the dentist we will sue him for 50k, and make sure he pays every cent! But with chess? $3 per night and my coffee is cold after 2 hours, can I have another?

There is a total and utter disconnect between the Australian Chess world and the world financial system.
And I've got 24 hours to fix it. Tick Tock Clarise!

thanks once again for your contributions. It all has to go into the mix.

PS How could the Oceania go ahead with "soft titles" without the ACF approving the event? I presume they read the small print.

MichaelBaron
25-04-2021, 05:29 PM
Michael and raising CAQ fees.
I am already under witness protection for suggesting removing the 11th commandment, "thou shalt pay people for playing chess badly".
After all when your dentist pulled out the wrong tooth, you still paid him, I presume?

And now you want me to suggest raising CAQ fees?! When I was helping to run the Belmont Junior Club in 1992/3 we had a vote with the kids as to whether we put the fees up from $3 to $4 so we could get FM Craig Laird to do specialist coaching. They voted to raise to $4. The kids did that.
My local adult club charges $3 per night in 2021.

1992/3 $4
2021 $3

People are analysing all these ideas with their chess caps on. People need to put their business caps on.
Because it is chess - we pay for a job done badly.
Because it is the dentist we will sue him for 50k, and make sure he pays every cent! But with chess? $3 per night and my coffee is cold after 2 hours, can I have another?

There is a total and utter disconnect between the Australian Chess world and the world financial system.
And I've got 24 hours to fix it. Tick Tock Clarise!

thanks once again for your contributions. It all has to go into the mix.

PS How could the Oceania go ahead with "soft titles" without the ACF approving the event? I presume they read the small print.

Re ''Soft Titles'' My view on soft titles is quite firm (and well-known on CC :)) I always stand firmly against them....it is just that I think the matter is not for this particular thread.
Re raising of the fees - I have nothing at all against it and often I agree that it is a great idea - just do not see what state Associations/ACF have to do with it if it happens at the club level.

Shaun94
25-04-2021, 05:58 PM
Michael and raising CAQ fees.
I am already under witness protection for suggesting removing the 11th commandment, "thou shalt pay people for playing chess badly".
After all when your dentist pulled out the wrong tooth, you still paid him, I presume?

And now you want me to suggest raising CAQ fees?! When I was helping to run the Belmont Junior Club in 1992/3 we had a vote with the kids as to whether we put the fees up from $3 to $4 so we could get FM Craig Laird to do specialist coaching. They voted to raise to $4. The kids did that.
My local adult club charges $3 per night in 2021.

1992/3 $4
2021 $3

People are analysing all these ideas with their chess caps on. People need to put their business caps on.
Because it is chess - we pay for a job done badly.
Because it is the dentist we will sue him for 50k, and make sure he pays every cent! But with chess? $3 per night and my coffee is cold after 2 hours, can I have another

I think Redcliffe cc is far too cheap and could be run much better by making it say $5 or $10 a night. I don't believe this price of entry is standard across qld clubs. I can't speak for Australia but gc chess club is $10 per night.

Patrick Byrom
25-04-2021, 06:33 PM
I think Redcliffe cc is far too cheap and could be run much better by making it say $5 or $10 a night. I don't believe this price of entry is standard across qld clubs. I can't speak for Australia but gc chess club is $10 per night.Brisbane Club has several rates, but $6 is the nightly rate for non-member non-concessional adults. But we have to pay rent, while Redcliffe might not. Both clubs have plenty of money in the bank, however - Gold Coast is a newer club, so it might need to build up a reserve.

Patrick Byrom
25-04-2021, 06:39 PM
I do not see how a state body can actually advice/regulate prize money/entry fees in the clubs in the first placeIt's not impossible - they could refuse to rate tournaments that offered cash rating prizes, and it's possible to imagine even more extreme sanctions. It's just very unlikely.

Shaun94
25-04-2021, 06:52 PM
Brisbane Club has several rates, but $6 is the nightly rate for non-member non-concessional adults. But we have to pay rent, while Redcliffe might not. Both clubs have plenty of money in the bank, however - Gold Coast is a newer club, so it might need to build up a reserve.

Gc chess club has quite a decent reserve but I believe offer decent prizes and pay rent for an expensive venue

Kerry Corker
25-04-2021, 07:26 PM
"Re raising of the fees - I have nothing at all against it and often I agree that it is a great idea - just do not see what state Associations/ACF have to do with it if it happens at the club level."

I want fees to reflect the time and effort it takes to run a good club. Patrick has been the backbone of the BCC since forever. His time should not be cheap.
You want to dance, ya gotta pay the band - or Patrick!

If you pay a 3 or 4 dollars per hour, that sounds fair to me. My nephews are in a soccer squad this year on the GC. Over 3k for each kid.
But the coaches are world class. Some of the best available.
Charge chess club prices and they will end up with me having a go and we'll see how it turns out.
It is a mind set.
I pay $6 for a good mug of good coffee from a good coffee shop. I pay $1 from 7/11, and get what I deserve.
Who charges $3 for anything? Not even the $1 stores charge $3!

Somewhere on here I suggested Patrick at BCC, charge $6 per night x 30 people - $60 rent (guess)
That = Patrick getting $100 per night for running a very good chess club.
I just know there were people out there spitting out, "Outrageous. Capitalism gone mad!"
And yet, when it comes to paying people to play very average chess. $200 rp, yeah, sounds good to me. What is going on?

Bill Gletsos
25-04-2021, 10:08 PM
PS How could the Oceania go ahead with "soft titles" without the ACF approving the event?Simple.
The ACF wasn't the organiser.

Bill Gletsos
25-04-2021, 10:16 PM
Of course if it can be shown that running an event without these rating prizes will be successful in terms of finances, but more importantly the numbers, ...The NSWCA tried running an U2000 tournament with only book prizes and no cash prizes around 20 odd years ago and the player numbers were significantly lower than for the usual tournaments held at that venue.
The experiment was not repeated.

Shaun94
25-04-2021, 10:50 PM
The NSWCA tried running an U2000 tournament with only book prizes and no cash prizes around 20 odd years ago and the player numbers were significantly lower than for the usual tournaments held at that venue.
The experiment was not repeated.

As stated previously, Gardiner Chess for some time was not offering cash for rating prizes (or as much as other organisations) and seen numbers dwindle. Once we changed this we have been receiving record numbers and regularly the most well attended events in Queensland.

I like the idea in theory, the problem is the substantial loss of participants to rival organisations is too much in most cases.

Different people play for different reasons. Some do play for prizes whether that be 1st overall or a rating group prize this is a real motivation for some.

Kerry Corker
26-04-2021, 12:14 AM
"The NSWCA tried running an U2000 tournament with only book prizes and no cash prizes around 20 odd years ago and the player numbers were significantly lower than for the usual tournaments held at that venue. The experiment was not repeated."

I think there is a difference here. Is it a stand alone event where no other events are being held or is it the middle section of a Doeberl or a GC Open?
You don't want the top section filled up with middle of the range players. Then the top players hardly meet with not enough rounds.
You are happy for the under rated new junior star to test the water though. So you want the elite at the top. And the others in lower sections.

In that case I see nothing wrong with offering lessor prizes in the U/2000 event. You've got your OS GMs and IMs in the top section and the second and third section pay for the top section. The third section are of course playing for experience and knowing that their entry fees are helping to bring foreign talent to aus to help our seniors and juniors try for title norms. "Ask not what your country can do for you etc",
The middle group would clog up the top section, so they could be playing for a lessor prize pool. I don't see their prizes as rps. If you put rps in the bottom section, you are once again paying people to come to the great show you have put on.
When I go to the pictures, I pay them, they don't pay me. If I make the pictures, then they pay me.

This is good. It raises the question of the middle section of a Grand Slam type event. Should they have a prize pool because we don't want them in the top section. I would answer yes. As for paying the bottom section for not being able to play chess, well that's a no-brainer.

Kerry Corker
26-04-2021, 12:26 AM
"Simple. The ACF wasn't the organiser."
OK, thanks for that. So it was run directly between FIDE and the organisers I guess. Not trying to be difficult. Just trying to understand the chain of command.

Bill Gletsos
26-04-2021, 06:57 AM
I think there is a difference here. Is it a stand alone event where no other events are being held or is it the middle section of a Doeberl or a GC Open?It was a standalone event.

As for paying the bottom section for not being able to play chess, If they aren’t good enough to pay, then maybe they are good enough to be paying an entry fee. :hmm:

well that's a no-brainer.There are a lot of no-brainer posts around here. :whistle:

BTW I suggest you learn to use the “quote” feature of the board.

MichaelBaron
26-04-2021, 09:26 AM
Even in small events (12-14 participants such as MCC Tuesday blitz) players usually ask if there is a rating prize. This clearly indicates that while I would rather not have rating prizes - the chess community has interest in it and they could be good for getting the player numbers up. Last blitz - we had a rating prize of $15...and i think it made some players happy :).

Kerry Corker
26-04-2021, 10:23 AM
Thanks Michael. It all goes into the mix.

Kerry Corker
26-04-2021, 10:25 AM
"BTW I suggest you learn to use the “quote” feature of the board."
Every time I use it my post goes off anywhere. Still learning.

Desmond
26-04-2021, 10:42 AM
Again not addressing any of the points I made (just picking and choosing parts to reply to that are aimed at you not the topic...), if you see the post prior to yours it was very much on topic. The post "prior" to mine is in fact timestamped 1 minute prior, so I had not read it at that stage. Clearly I was referring to your previous posts on this thread, posts #19 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479683&viewfull=1#post479683), #22 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479686&viewfull=1#post479686), #23 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479687&viewfull=1#post479687), #27 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479693&viewfull=1#post479693), #29 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479695&viewfull=1#post479695), #34 (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?18431-Which-Sports-have-Rating-Prizes&p=479715&viewfull=1#post479715). In precisely 0 of these posts did you address the topic of this thread, i.e. what other sports have rating prizes. You called the idea absurd, but offered no argument as to why you thought it was absurd. You attacked me personally, and attempted to shame me in a number of ways. I did nothing to attack you personally, nothing to attack any business or specific tournament you run. Nothing.

In particular your comments about "you are too old to do x" in #29. Since in this thread we are in the business of comparing chess to other things, let me compare this with the corporate world. I cannot imagine publically stating "you are too old to do x" to a colleague, customers, prospective customer, or frankly anyone. If I had said this, I would personally feel very ashamed of what I had said. I have no doubt there would be also be professional consequences. Probably severe ones. Age-based discrimination is not taken to kindly in the corporate world.

Unfortunately it seems that the comments in that specific post were not in isolation. You made other comments that imply similar messages. "back in my day stories". "lol OK boomer". "you're the past". A pattern.

One of the odd things I find about your line of attack was the inherent self-contradiction. You asked me, "What qualifications do you have in terms of experience[...] ?". You then later dismissed it: "experience can be beneficial aren't overly valued at the moment." That's a bit odd isn't it?

Another inherent contradiction. Asking me whether I play, implying I don't "Are you interested in getting involved in chess again (OTB or admin)?" "I'm sure a local club would love to hear from you. "
Then when I point out that I am currently activly playing lately with 2 local clubs and weekenders, I get mocked for it: "Showing up to occasional club nights well done, proud of you..."
So which is it?

Actually I suspect that when you started you weren't expecting the answers you got.
- Oh him, yeah he just comments online nothing else.
- Well actually no, I do play OTB a bit lately.
- Oh yeah you play but you never volunteer.
- Well actually no, I have volunteered in the past.
- Oh yeah you have volunteered but not lately.
- Well actually no, I do volunteer, but not in chess currently.
- Yeah, see. Zing!

After this treatment your suggestion is what exactly? I should front up to the CAQ and ask your permission to do something? Ask for your advice on how to get involved?

Again returning to the corporate world, we actually value customer feedback very highly, and other feedback too. We actively seek it. It helps us improve our product. After activities we send out feedback forms. What did you like about it, what didn't you, what could we do to improve for next time? I have not received a feedback form after a chess event. I couldn't imagine telling the customer: what are you doing to improve my product, either you improve it yourself or shut up and go away.


Anyway glad your local swim club is doing well, the Junior chess club that I ran on Tuesday afternoons for sometime followed a similar model with trophies given to children for accumulation of points across a term. Holiday chess programs I run follow the same format but these are coaching style junior clubs rather than weekend events and have a very different structure to the tournaments discussed here.

I don't know if adults or teenagers would appreciate the same prizes, as I said a test would need to be done.

Also glad to hear you volunteer for other activities, that's great could you do the same in terms of chess administration would you be willing to assist a local club as an organiser/arbiter? Potentially come to a caq meeting share your ideas with a plan of how you would assist in the implementation?

I'm all for more people on board so how can I assist you in joining in and doing things for QLD/Australian chess?My comment earlier (#37) I didn't fully complete as I was rushing out the door for the day. I was also going to say, that while I do volunteer for those sports and others it's as a parent. Both the swimming club and little athletics have a very good schedule that makes it easy for parents to volunteer. For instance if you volunteer on 50% of the club nights during the year at Little A's, you get a discount off your membership for the following season. Also both run canteens that make money for the clubs, might be an idea worth considering.

Solo
26-04-2021, 07:35 PM
Thankyou KC and everyone for your interesting comments.

I would like to mention squash, which I have played for 40 years. They have fixtures, which is much like interclub chess, and the prizes are embroidered towels for winners and runners up, which I really appreciate. I am in a middle division, and it is the same prizes for Premier and A1 as the other divisions. They have had ratings for the last 20 years or so, and my equivalent rating would be 1700. Anthony Hain is the best squash/chess player I know and would be 2300 at squash. I played my fixture match last Thursday night and thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it was a great match, and I lost in 4 sets!

They have tournaments on weekends, and I have played them at a rate of about one every two years! They are in divisions, and they always place me in a too low division so I have won the last two! I won a good squash racquet in the Mackay open, and a bottle of wine in the Maroochydore open, about 3 and 1 year ago respectively. The masters championships is in age divisions of course, and I played one of those 15 years ago, but not since.

So I understand the middle and lower class chess players loving to play, and Bundys Bro has mentioned some players in some other thread before who don't have the talent to go over a certain rating, yet love to play all the time. I think they were Martin Carter, Craig Stewart and his eminence, Stokesy! So anyway I am in favour of rating prizes.

Kerry Corker
27-04-2021, 02:14 PM
Thanks for joining the conversation Stephen.
My guitar coach used to own the Southport Squash Centre. Peter and Wendy. He is now my guitar coach! I remember asking him years ago about the prize structure in Squash. Not much cash at the top and wine bottles and meal vouchers at the bottom. For some reason squash cannot get any traction on tv. I remember when they played next to the pyramids in see-through courts. Spectacular. Like chess, it just has to be presented right. My brother has competed in Dragon Boat Racing up to winning two Age Group World Championships titles, and it is medal all the way. I am not sure about Open level. I would imagine cash would kick in then.

I agree with you, rating prizes are fine. You hold up your bottle of wine after the comp. and chide your fellow competitors for not getting one! Or winning the meal voucher-probably worth $50 or $60. The squash people trawl the local businesses for prizes when the comp. is coming up. Sometimes you will have a player who owns a restaurant and gives a voucher. It is both an investment (they might come back again) and a tax deduction.

I am glad you have come forward. I think you are only the second Olympian to have come forward on this issue.
And the other one, GM Rogers, is commenting on our team’s names.
By now, of course, the ACF has the name of our teams up on the Chessaroos Fund Raising page. Good to see.

You are a great example of what I am trying to achieve with our National Teams. They should be working with a World Class Trainer. They should be trying to play at our 4 Majors, Aus. Champs., Begonia, Doeberl and GC Open. They should be playing training matches all through the year. They should be well known and change 4 times per year. They should have merchandising.
The only National team that follows our plan is the All Blacks.
They only play together for 2 weeks once every 2 years.
You see how silly that looks!

How many GMs did you beat in Olympiads? I am guessing 5 or 6.
Imagine if you had been playing against world class teams by phone or teletext for months before the Olympiad.
I don’t think it would have taken much to tip you over into GM norm results.
How many times did your teams meet for training sessions and matches before each Olympiad?
Maybe I should have bought the book.

Oh, that’s right, I did. And a fine book it is too.
“Australia at the Yerevan Chess Olympiad. “
Written by Ian Rogers. Photographs by Cathy Rogers.
A Chess Australia Publication. First Edition 1996.
Inscribed “To Kerry, someone lucky enough never to have gone to Yerevan”.

Great round by round description of how the Australians are doing, both teams.
It describes how our first choice for Board 3, “could not afford the cost of the trip”.
That’s not a reserve, or even a Board 4, but one of the best players in the country. He cited loss of income among his reasons. Has anything changed?

Also, it features IM Solomon 0.5 GM Dizdarevic and Aronian Lev. 0-1 Leonid Sandler.
Great book and great annotations.
Australian Open Team =25th
Australian Women’s Team =35th
Chessaroos?
I must admit, I sped read through it and could find no mention of the Chessaroos.
But I also concede that from time to time, the Australian Team/s has/have been known as the Chessaroo/s.
----------------------------
As for those poor old souls who just cannot get over 1399 –
You trained and mentored Charles Pizzato to win the Aus. Juniors at age 14.
You trained and mentored GM Smerdon from an early age. I think the both of you enhanced Petroff Theory as a by-product of your duel.
You trained and mentored IM Brodie McClymont on the way to his IM title.
And yet, these poor souls, even if you were to coach them or they read Dvorestky’s books or subscribed to GM Ly’s YouTube channel,
even with all that available help, they still cannot get over 1400.

I had no coach, no money, no talent, and got to 2049.? I learned how to castle and en passant in 1979.
By, I think, 1983, I drew with the Australian Open Champion IM Guy West in the first round of Doeberl Cup.
Not some club event where the top guns get a bit lazy, but Doeberl Cup.
So, if we start from the premise that I have no talent for the game, (I think here all of Australia is in agreement with me finally!).
Fast forward 4 years of very hard work and I go from 0 to drawing with the Australian Open Champion.
And these guys cannot ever, ever ,get over 1399, or 1599 or 1799? People cannot really believe that!
Do you see what I have done here? In order for them to win this argument, they have to suggest that I have talent! This is gonna hurt!

There is nothing so constant as change. That is a universal constant. Yes, I see the irony.
You are either going forward of backward. No one ever truly stands still.
The only exceptions to these pillars of physics throughout the entire known and unknown universes are – Australian chess players!

Kerry Corker
27-04-2021, 02:25 PM
So, to be clear, a business can deal directly with FIDE to run an event in Australia. I thought it would be another, "no brainer", that the ACF would be involved.
Once again, just seeking clarification.
I have had a nibble regarding my corporate teams event idea.
Now a nibble, in movie terms on a scale of 1 to 1000 is a 2. Long, long, way down the track before anything happens. 7 years for movies on average from script to theatre.
However, FIDE to Business direct is going to cut out about 2 years of haggling, mostly about rating prizes I would imagine.
FIDE is all about business. And business is all about, well, business.

Bill Gletsos
27-04-2021, 03:22 PM
So, to be clear, a business can deal directly with FIDE to run an event in Australia.I never mentioned a business, I just said it wasn't the ACF.
It was organised by the Oceania Zonal President. Now it is allocated to organisers by the OCC (Oceania Chess Confederation).

I thought it would be another, "no brainer", that the ACF would be involved.Seems there is too much no-braining going on around here latly.

Kevin Bonham
27-04-2021, 03:51 PM
Also, most Oceania Zonals are not held in Australia anyway.

Desmond
27-04-2021, 08:26 PM
Thanks for joining the conversation Stephen.
My guitar coach used to own the Southport Squash Centre. Peter and Wendy. He is now my guitar coach! I remember asking him years ago about the prize structure in Squash. Not much cash at the top and wine bottles and meal vouchers at the bottom. For some reason squash cannot get any traction on tv. I remember when they played next to the pyramids in see-through courts. Spectacular. Like chess, it just has to be presented right. My brother has competed in Dragon Boat Racing up to winning two Age Group World Championships titles, and it is medal all the way. I am not sure about Open level. I would imagine cash would kick in then.

I agree with you, rating prizes are fine. You hold up your bottle of wine after the comp. and chide your fellow competitors for not getting one! Or winning the meal voucher-probably worth $50 or $60. The squash people trawl the local businesses for prizes when the comp. is coming up. Sometimes you will have a player who owns a restaurant and gives a voucher. It is both an investment (they might come back again) and a tax deduction.Speaking of towels, one of my first chess tournaments I won a towel for best junior. This towel has never been used. It is still its pristine white with red caligraphy embroidery, sitting behind glass on display all these years. I like looking at it because it takes me back to that day, I remember it, and sometimes I tell the story.

One time I won a chess book by an Australian author. It is sitting on a book shelf behind me now.

I won many 3-figure cash prizes over the years. I couldn't tell you what a single one of them was spent on. They went into consolidated revenue.

Many years ago I set myself a goal to run a marathon in every state and territory of Australia. I have 6 down, 2 to go. The medals from those 6 marathons are on prominant display in my house. I have never won a cash prize from running. I would not sell those medals even if you offered me $10,000 for each of them. They are priceless.

I won towels, too, when I was a competitive swimmer. These were the prize for qualifying for state titles (they are PB-gated). I still have them. I was club champion for years. I have never won a cash prize from swimming.

Today at my kids' schools they have an ANZAC day parade. I saw a veteran, wearing his medals. He was not wearing on display the paychecks he got from his tours of duty. He was wearing his medals. These are the things that matter.

Someone mentioned that kids these days are not motivated by trophies and medals. Whoever said this does not know my kids. They know exactly how many trophies I have, and they are chasing me down. I hope they catch me.

I appreciate that not everyone is the same. Maybe some people would use the towel to clean their hands after changing the oil in the car. Maybe the towel didn't last the year. Maybe they can tell you exactly what they spent the $150 cash prize on, all those years ago. Maybe some. I doubt most.

Kerry Corker
28-04-2021, 05:03 PM
Thanks for that Desmond. I agree totally. I have self muzzled myself on rps and Chessaroos comments. Have started a new campaign to get our Chessaroos on the map.
Take a look and let me know what you think. Moscow 22.