PDA

View Full Version : Aronian Switching Federation to USA



Bill Gletsos
26-02-2021, 08:41 PM
Aronian switching Federation to USA. https://saintlouischessclub.org/blog/super-grandmaster-levon-aronian-move-saint-louis-represent-usa

See https://www.facebook.com/LevAronian and https://ruchess.ru/en/news/all/levon_aronian_switches_to_the_usa/ and

Scott Colliver
26-02-2021, 09:03 PM
How much are they paying him?

MichaelBaron
27-02-2021, 12:28 AM
How much are they paying him?

Its not just about the money. Change of government Happened in Armenia and the new government does not like Aronian as he was close to the previous government.

Scott Colliver
27-02-2021, 12:48 AM
Its not just about the money. Change of government Happened in Armenia and the new government does not like Aronian as he was close to the previous government.

That all just boils down to them not giving him the financial support he wants so it is just about money

Ian Rout
27-02-2021, 09:39 AM
That all just boils down to them not giving him the financial support he wants so it is just about moneyIn those circumstances having the government "not like" you has implications beyond salary.

Although in any case migration for career purposes is not unusual.

Metro
27-02-2021, 08:09 PM
Nakamura this morning on his Twitch stream said it was a disaster for the young Americans such as Awonder Liang,Jeffrey Xiong and Sam Sevian.Aronians presence would make it more difficult for them to break through eg.in to the Olympiad team.

MichaelBaron
27-02-2021, 08:57 PM
That all just boils down to them not giving him the financial support he wants so it is just about money

Not at all, the political situation over there is very complex right now. He would never switch Federations under the previous government with or without financial support at stake.

ER
28-02-2021, 07:31 AM
Lol I think Naka is more worried about his position in the Olympic team rather than that of the youngsters! :D
well not really, he holds 4rth position at the moment but will be edged to fifth after Levon's possible inclusion!
He's younger (not much, maybe 5 years) than the Arnenian (future American) though!
BTW isn't there some temporal restriction to represent their new fed applied to players after federation change?
I am also sure that it can take quite some time before a foreigner gains permanent visa status, let alone US citizenship!

MichaelBaron
28-02-2021, 09:22 AM
Lol I think Naka is more worried about his position in the Olympic team rather than that of the youngsters! :D
well not really, he holds 4rth position at the moment but will be edged to fifth after Levon's possible inclusion!
He's younger (not much, maybe 5 years) than the Arnenian (future American) though!
BTW isn't there some temporal restriction to represent their new fed applied to players after federation change?
I am also sure that it can take quite some time before a foreigner gains permanent visa status, let alone US citizenship!

Naka seems to be focusing on blitz these days and with Inclusion of Levon, he is indeed relegated to the 4th position on the rating list with Dominiguez beinng number 5. All the talented young players are way behind!

P.S The Australians women's team now has 2 ''imported'' WGMs and an imported IM (all 3 arrived here well beyond their junior age) so the USA situation is not that unique.

Ian Rout
28-02-2021, 11:01 AM
Naka's right that it makes it hard for the home-grown players when USA has three imports (four if you count Fabi), but it's a zero-sum game. A spot is now there for another Armenian.

One solution may be for USA to host the Olympiad and get two teams in. If they can find sponsors for shuffle chess and clock thumping they should be able to find them for the real thing if they put their minds to it. Well maybe that's Mr Sinquefield's plan.

The team looks strong with the last Challenger and three other recent Candidates, but it pales beside USSR teams of the past. Going back fifty years the Soviet top five for Siegen 1970 was Spassky, Petrosian, Korchnoi, Polugaevsky and Smyslov. Ten years earlier Leipzig 1960 was Tal, Botvinnik, Keres, Korchnoi and Smyslov. In those days teams were six players; in 1970 the sixth was Geller, in 1960 it was Petrosian.

MichaelBaron
28-02-2021, 11:37 AM
Naka's right that it makes it hard for the home-grown players when USA has three imports (four if you count Fabi), but it's a zero-sum game. A spot is now there for another Armenian.

One solution may be for USA to host the Olympiad and get two teams in. If they can find sponsors for shuffle chess and clock thumping they should be able to find them for the real thing if they put their minds to it. Well maybe that's Mr Sinquefield's plan.

The team looks strong with the last Challenger and three other recent Candidates, but it pales beside USSR teams of the past. Going back fifty years the Soviet top five for Siegen 1970 was Spassky, Petrosian, Korchnoi, Polugaevsky and Smyslov. Ten years earlier Leipzig 1960 was Tal, Botvinnik, Keres, Korchnoi and Smyslov. In those days teams were six players; in 1970 the sixth was Geller, in 1960 it was Petrosian.

Even their first team will never be as dominant as the Soviets back then! The soviets lost only a single ollympiad in 40 years (to Hungary in 1978), USA may be having trouble winning consistently time after time over China, Russia and others.

Desmond
28-02-2021, 03:38 PM
In those circumstances having the government "not like" you has implications beyond salary.

Although in any case migration for career purposes is not unusual.Migration may not be, but surely changing your allegiance is. Lots of tennis pros are based out of USA but they still represent their home country, for example.

Ian Rout
28-02-2021, 04:44 PM
Migration may not be, but surely changing your allegiance is. Lots of tennis pros are based out of USA but they still represent their home country, for example.I think the difference is that those players don't intend their move to be permanent, at the end of their career they will plan to return home or maybe move to a third country.

The problem with moving your address and keeping your registration is that you can become effectively stateless in sporting terms with both countries at least partially disowning you. Not an issue with tennis which is largely an individual game, or soccer where playing overseas is accepted, but a problem in chess. In any case it's normal to represent the country you live in, many AUS chess players weren't born here.

Desmond
28-02-2021, 06:58 PM
I think the difference is that those players don't intend their move to be permanent, at the end of their career they will plan to return home or maybe move to a third country.

The problem with moving your address and keeping your registration is that you can become effectively stateless in sporting terms with both countries at least partially disowning you. Not an issue with tennis which is largely an individual game, or soccer where playing overseas is accepted, but a problem in chess. In any case it's normal to represent the country you live in, many AUS chess players weren't born here.

If we're talking soccer, then Aronian would absolutely not be allowed to switch federations at this stage in his career, having represented Armenia on many occassions (and winning 3 olympiads of course).

With regards to tennis, I don't see why tennis is any more of an individual sport than chess is. Players can move to USA (or elsewhere) and continue to represent their home country without a problem.

Scott Colliver
01-03-2021, 08:44 AM
Lol I think Naka is more worried about his position in the Olympic team rather than that of the youngsters! :D
well not really, he holds 4rth position at the moment but will be edged to fifth after Levon's possible inclusion!
He's younger (not much, maybe 5 years) than the Arnenian (future American) though!
BTW isn't there some temporal restriction to represent their new fed applied to players after federation change?
I am also sure that it can take quite some time before a foreigner gains permanent visa status, let alone US citizenship!

Nakamura is not even sure he wants to play the next Olympiad.

Desmond
06-03-2021, 06:10 PM
Nepo offers his opinion at 17:20, that Aronian should not be allowed to play for the national team after transferring.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvwksI6ynbE&t=1040s

Scott Colliver
06-03-2021, 06:58 PM
It is not like he doesn't have a vested interest in the USA not getting stronger.

Putting that aside it would change what happens in chess massively.

Frank
06-03-2021, 08:06 PM
The Australians women's team now has 2 ''imported'' WGMs and an imported IM (all 3 arrived here well beyond their junior age)

In truth, it hardly seems to matter now that they and their families have well and truly integrated into their country of choice. They are no less Australian.

MichaelBaron
07-03-2021, 10:15 AM
In truth, it hardly seems to matter now that they and their families have well and truly integrated into their country of choice. They are no less Australian.

Absolutely. Likewise, no reason why Aronian and So are any less American than their teammates :).
Also, likewise, as we would not complain that they take team spots away from the ''Young Australians'' - I do not see why it should be a problem in the USA.

Desmond
07-03-2021, 11:55 AM
It is not like he doesn't have a vested interest in the USA not getting stronger.Perhaps so, but Armenia got weakened at the same time. Armenia won 3 of the last 7 olympiads, USA just 1.


Putting that aside it would change what happens in chess massively.OK, but changed for the better or worse?

Scott Colliver
07-03-2021, 12:31 PM
Perhaps so, but Armenia got weakened at the same time. Armenia won 3 of the last 7 olympiads, USA just 1.

OK, but changed for the better or worse?

Armenia was already a lot weaker than when they won the Olympiads. The USA was stronger even before Aronian switches.

At the top level it might be a bit of an improvement, but the top level is small and most chess nations are represented by amateurs. I think it would be worse overall.

Desmond
07-03-2021, 12:53 PM
At the top level it might be a bit of an improvement, but the top level is small and most chess nations are represented by amateurs. I think it would be worse overall.I mean you could just have a rule that you can't change to represent a second country if you've already represented your first country as an adult. Many sports have this. You could draw the line somewhere to have some minor allowances for amateur players, but wherever you draw that line Aronian will be on the other side of it having lead Armenia to 3 Olympiad wins.

ER
07-03-2021, 01:37 PM
Even their first team will never be as dominant as the Soviets back then! The soviets lost only a single ollympiad in 40 years (to Hungary in 1978), USA may be having trouble winning consistently time after time over China, Russia and others.

Was doing some statistics research the other day re: USSR Olympic teams from 1952 to 1990.
Of the 33 players they used 18 were not Russian (vast majority of the "foreigners" being Ukrainian).
Also three of the USSR world champions weren't Russian!
Considering that those (Baltic) countries were forcibly occupied and incorporated in Czarist Russia first and USSR later with only short periods of independence we can talk of forced transfers of their GMs.
Well, transfers of that kind were a "normal" chess phenomenon with the most striking characteristic that of WC Alexander Alekhine.
Nowadays, FIDE's transfer lists contain quite a few of such transfer cases.
So no reason to get excited! :D :P

ElevatorEscapee
09-03-2021, 10:10 PM
Walter Browne represented Australia at the 1970 & 1972 chess Olympiads, before switching to represent the US.

(According to that font of all wisdom, Wikileakspedia, Walter was born in Sydney of an Aussie mum and a US dad - the family moved to the US when he was three, and he held dual Aussie/US citizenship until he was 21).

There is also an interesting list of chess players who changed national federations - Oceanian nations are listed at the bottom:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nationality_transfers_in_chess

Kevin Bonham
10-03-2021, 11:00 AM
Didn't notice until recently that the United States of Anywhere have also picked up Leinier Dominguez from Cuba (transferred in 2018) so in theory they could field a team consisting entirely of players who were either transferred or born overseas.

Patrick Byrom
10-03-2021, 05:04 PM
I mean you could just have a rule that you can't change to represent a second country if you've already represented your first country as an adult. Many sports have this. You could draw the line somewhere to have some minor allowances for amateur players, but wherever you draw that line Aronian will be on the other side of it having lead Armenia to 3 Olympiad wins.I think that's too strict, as players may change countries 'involuntarily' - Victor Korchnoi would be an obvious example. But a delay in representing another country of (for example) four years seems reasonable.

Kevin Bonham
10-03-2021, 05:33 PM
The current FIDE requirements allow a player to transfer to any country of which they have citizenship or residency, with the consent of that country's chess governing body. Residency is treated informally and can mean living in the other country or having a formal residency status. Also, it doesn't have to be permanent residency.

However, when a strong player moves to another country and transfers more or less immediately, their old Federation is entitled to compensation from the new one if the player wants to start representing the new Federation right away. So if Aronian has only just started living in the USA, and the USA wants him able to represent them before he has two years as a resident, then the USA will have to pay Armenia 50,000 euro, unless Armenia waives or reduces that amount.

Provided a new Federation wants to pay the compensation fee, there is nothing to stop a player moving from one country to another and transferring and playing for their new country immediately. Though the old federation can stall the application for 90 days simply by not answering FIDE's emails about the transfer.

Desmond
11-03-2021, 08:46 PM
I think that's too strict, as players may change countries 'involuntarily' - Victor Korchnoi would be an obvious example. But a delay in representing another country of (for example) four years seems reasonable.

You might be right, but then again such cases could be dealt with as an exception.

The 4 years idea has some merit. The Intl Olympic Games Committee has a rule of 3 years, though that can be waived in exceptional circumstances.

Frank
16-03-2021, 06:48 PM
Aronian switching Federation to USA. https://saintlouischessclub.org/blog/super-grandmaster-levon-aronian-move-saint-louis-represent-usa

Transfers are commonplace. Some snippets from the newsletter of the Chess Federation of the Kyrgyz Republic [robotically translated]:

https://chesskg.org/2021/03/10/transfery-xxi-veka/

Transfers of the XXI century

At the junction of winter and spring, the chess world was shocked by the news: one of the strongest players of our time, Levon Aronian, changes his federation and starts playing for the USA instead of Armenia. There were already competitors of the dream-team named after billionaire Rex Sinquefield rubbing their hands - one of the pillars of the Stars and Stripes team, Hikaru Nakamura, announced that it was more comfortable and more profitable for him to switch to playing on the Internet, and then again a third great was added to Fabiano Caruana and Wesley So.

However, Moscow-2022 is not coming soon, and I am sure that this transition will not be the last. Is it possible that such a rising superstar as Alireza Firugia , who is still playing under the banner of the International Chess Federation, will remain on the sidelines of the Olympics ? In the meantime, experts are making various forecasts, let's recall the most famous transitions of the current century. Sorry in advance: I had to do a titanic search work, and if someone was offended, forgotten - do not judge strictly.

..2021. In addition to the news about Levon Aronian, at the beginning of the year, it was announced that Arkady Naiditsch terminated the agreement with the Azerbaijani federation and should stop representing it in official competitions, but the grandmaster's flag has not changed yet.

..2020. Surprisingly, even in the year of the coronavirus invasion, significant transfer events took place: Ivan Cheparinov returned to the Bulgarian Chess Federation, Lazaro Bruson followed Dominguez from Cuba to the USA, England was represented by a journalist, one of the first persons of the Russian-speaking chess.com, Russian woman Maria Emelyanova.

..2019. At that time, literally the entire chess part of the country was watching the legal battle between lawyers Alexander Dobrovinsky and Alexander Martynov, and soon Bibisara Assaubayeva returned to Kazakhstan. There, the young chess player was offered good conditions, while Profchessklab, on the contrary, disintegrated. After numerous litigations with Yazici, appeals to the world community, the ACP and FIDE, Suat Atalik left Turkey for Serbia. Popular journalist, grandmaster Anna Burtasova emigrated to Canada from Russia, ex-world champion Susan Polgar again began to represent Hungary.

..2018. Cuban Leinier Dominguez turned out to be another iconic figure in the American national team, and Aleksey Shirov, due to disagreements with the leadership of the Latvian chess, returned under the flag of the Spanish crown.

..2017. Anastasia Sorokina returned to Belarus from Australia - first-class tournaments began to be held in Minsk, well-known specialists started working from the national team. But, alas, the sad events of 2020 dealt a terrible blow to all the aspirations of the famous judge and organizer.

..2015. Evgeny Bareev left Russia for Canada, but still does not break ties with his homeland and is now an expert of the leading Russian-language channel Levitov Chess on Youtube. Fabiano Caruana is back in the US from Italy - the great three of the Caruana-Nakamura-So attack come together.

..2012. The most exotic transfer from Alex Averbukh: USA - Japan! David Alberto started representing Luxembourg instead of Italy. The future blindfold record holder Timur Gareev went to the USA from Uzbekistan .

..2009. Ivan Sokolov returned to his glorious Bosnian homeland from the Netherlands, and in general, 2009 can be safely dubbed the year of youth: Sergey Karjakin, at the invitation of Alexander Bach, moves from Ukraine to Russia, Anish Giri , on the contrary, from a Russian becomes a Dutchman, and Alexander Ipatov instead of Ukraine begins to represent Spain

..2007. And this year you can find a lot of nice transfers: Igor Efimov followed the route of the USSR - Georgia - Italy and put a spectacular point in Monaco! Mikhail Khodarkovsky moved to the United States from Ukraine (not to be confused with the rebellious oligarch), now a man from the inner circle of Garry Kasparov . One of the Chinese nationals, Li Zofan, followed Zhu Chen's example and changed its Chinese homeland to Singapore (but returned 10 years later). One of the record holders of the open tournaments, the Ukrainian Vadim Malakhatko, became the Belgian . Igor Rausis from Bangladesh moved to the Czech Republic, starting to play for one of the strongest clubs in the country. Andrey Shekachev, the famous "Grandmaster Dre" from the story "Eastern Station" by Murtas Kazhgaleev, changed the Russian Federation to the French.

..2003 was marked by the fact that due to the conflict at home, Levon Aronian began to represent Germany, and Igor Rausis received the Bangladeshi flag instead of the Latvian flag - the main person of one of the most high-profile cases of computer prompts worked for many years as a coach in this country. Maxim Sorokin returned from Argentina to Russia - no one could have imagined what tragedy awaited the talented grandmaster and coach ... The future head of the Chess Federation of Belarus Anastasia Sorokina began her voyage to Australia.

..2004 Levon Aronian flared up, but a year later came back to play for Armenia; the same thing happened with Kiril Georgiev in relations with the Bulgarian federation. Anna Muzychuk, one of the most promising figures in Ukrainian chess, has accepted the generous offer of the Slovenian Chess Federation. Since 2004 Levon Aronian played under the Armenian flag again.

..2003 was marked by the fact that due to the conflict at home, Levon Aronian began to represent Germany, and Igor Rausis received the Bangladeshi flag instead of the Latvian flag - the main person of one of the most high-profile cases of computer prompts worked for many years as a coach in this country. Maxim Sorokin returned from Argentina to Russia - no one could have imagined what tragedy awaited the talented grandmaster and coach ... The future head of the Chess Federation of Belarus Anastasia Sorokina began her voyage to Australia..