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Desmond
06-10-2020, 09:07 AM
https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/altibox-norway-chess-2020/2/1/1


Altibox Norway Chess is a 6-player double round-robin featuring World Champion Magnus Carlsen and taking place in the Clarion Hotel Energy in Stavanger, Norway from 5-16 October.
Each of the 10 rounds consists of a classical game where a win is worth 3 points and a loss 0. If the players draw they play an Armageddon game, where the winner earns 1.5 points and the loser 1 point.
No draw offers are allowed before move 30.
The classical time control is 2 hours for all moves, with a 10-second increment per move only after move 40. For Armageddon White (the same player who had White in the classical game) has 10 minutes to Black's 7, with a 1-second increment from move 41. Black wins if the game ends in a draw.
A tie for 1st place will be decided by two 3+2 blitz games followed, if necessary, by a 5 vs. 4-minute Armageddon game.
Official website: norwaychess.no

Round 1
Caruana (black) - Tari, W (3-0)
Firouzja (black) - Duda, W (3-0)
Carlsen (black) - Aronian, DW (1.5-1)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5h-lj6z8x0

MichaelBaron
07-10-2020, 10:18 AM
Disappointing slip my Magnus who had a huge advantage in rd2

MichaelBaron
08-10-2020, 08:24 PM
Magnus is finally victorious against Tari.

Desmond
09-10-2020, 08:25 AM
Round 2
Carlsen - Alireza DW 1.5-1
Caruana - Duda W 3-0
Aronian - Tari W 3-0

Magnus was lucky to win the Arma on time, after being pretty close to lost earlier.

Round 3
Carlsen (black) - Tari W 3-0
Aronian (black) - Duda W 3-0
Firouzja - Caruana DW 1.5-1

Bad loss for Duda there on the white side of a pretty stale position, that he had no business being worse in.

Firouzja - Caruana was a really complex sharp position, players made some sort of move repetition.

Magnus played a sharp line with some pretty serious downsides to mix things up, and probably stood significantly worse, but had some nice combinations to win.

26. Rf3 Re1 27.Rxe1 Bxd4 28.Qb4 Qc7 29.d6 Qc6 30.Qa5 Bxb2 31.Ka2 Be5 32.Rb1 Rxb1 33.Kxb1 Qxd6 34.Kc1 Qd4 35.Qxa6+ Kb8 36.c3 Qg1+ 37.Kd2 Qxg2+ 38.Ke3 f4+ 39.Nxf4 Bxf4+ 40.Rxf4 Qg3+ 41.Rf3 Qe1+ 42.Kd4 Qe5+ 43.Kxc4 Qe4+ 44.Kc5 Qxf3 45.Kd6 Bc8 0-1

Commentary with Kramnik and Judit Polgar has been excellent. The tournament has a "confession booth" that the players can use to talk to the camera, but I didn't see any done in English yet.

MichaelBaron
11-10-2020, 11:03 AM
Carlsen lost his first game after 125-game-long non losing strike last night!

Desmond
11-10-2020, 05:38 PM
Carlsen lost his first game after 125-game-long non losing strike last night!

Yes the end of an incredible run. Duda's tournament, that started with 3 classical losses and a 4th arma loss, suddenly got a whole lot better. He gets to play black against Magnus tonight for his troubles, as the tournament reaches the second half.

In round 4, Alireza claimed in the post game interview that his clock was started 2 mins early before the scheduled start of arma, and he had to play with 5 mins with black instead of 7 against white's 10. He still won though.

Round 4
Carlsen - Caruana W 3-0
Firouzja (black) - Aronian DW 1.5-1
Tari - Duda DW 1.5-1

Round 5
Duda - Carlsen W 3-0
Aronian (black) - Caruana W 3-0
Firouzja - Tari W 3-0

Standing after round 5
1 Aronian 11
2 Firouzja 10
3 Carlsen 9
4 Caruana 7
5 Duda 4
6 Tari 1.5

Desmond
12-10-2020, 07:14 PM
Magnus did not have to wait long to exact revenge on Duda, winnning handily. In fact all the 3 classical games today were very sharp. Caruana also had a comeback with a strong win after 2 losses. Firouzja and Tari's fortunes continued down their paths.

Round 6
Carlsen - Duda W 3-0
Caruana (black) - Aronian W 3-0
Firouzja (black) - Tari W 3-0

Standings after round 6
1 Firouzja 13
2 Carlsen 12
3 Aronian 11
4 Caruana 10
5 Duda 4
6 Tari 1.5

Carlsen - Duda
24.Nf6+ Kh8 25.Qxe6 Ra8 26.Qxd5 1-0

Aronian - Caruana
Aronian opened up the position but found his own king under heavier fire. He had to make the last 6 moves before move 40 (when 10s increment kicks in) in about 25 seconds which didn't help.
23.g4 f6 24.g5 Qf4 25.gxf6 Qg4+ 26.Kf1 Qh3+ 27.Ke2 Nd5 28.Qd2 Bb5+ 29.Nxb5 Qg4 30.Qg5 Nf4+ 31.Ke3 Ng2+ 32.Ke2 Qc4+ 33.Bd3 Rxd3 34.Rxd3 Nf4+ 35.Ke3 Qe4+ 36.Kd2 Qxd3+ 37.Kc1 Qxf3 38.f7 Qg4 0-1

Tari - Firouzja
21.c5 Qc7 22.g3 g4 23.hxg4 Rxg4 24.Bh3 Rg7 25.Kh1 e5 26.Bxd7 Qxd7 27.Nh2 Qh3 28.Rg1 Rag8 29.Qe2 e4 30.Rc3 Nf5 31.Nxe4 dxe4 32.Qxe4 Bxg3 33.Rg2 Re7 34.Qb1 Rge8 0-1

Capablanca-Fan
13-10-2020, 05:57 AM
chess24.com (https://twitter.com/chess24com/status/1315694112109101056)
@chess24com

Kramnik on Carlsen's "huge positional talent", that neither Kasparov nor Karpov had at the same age : "It seems that for Magnus it was from birth, it was absolutely natural"
#NorwayChess

Desmond
13-10-2020, 08:00 AM
chess24.com (https://twitter.com/chess24com/status/1315694112109101056)
@chess24com

Kramnik on Carlsen's "huge positional talent", that neither Kasparov nor Karpov had at the same age : "It seems that for Magnus it was from birth, it was absolutely natural"
#NorwayChessKramnik and Svidler were discussing, how do you face someone who has the best preparation and consistently outplays you from equal positions?

ER
13-10-2020, 08:34 AM
With three rounds to go!

4601[/ATTACH

[ATTACH]4602

Desmond
13-10-2020, 08:31 PM
Round 7
Carlsen (black) - Caruana DW 1.5-1
Firouzja - Aronian DW 1.5-1
Duda - Tari W 3-0

Standings after round 7

1. Firouzja 14.5
2. Carlsen 13.5
3. Aronian 12
4. Caruana 11
5. Duda 7
6. Tari 1.5

MichaelBaron
13-10-2020, 08:46 PM
Magnus was pawn up but Fabi escaped.

Desmond
13-10-2020, 09:28 PM
Magnus was pawn up but Fabi escaped.

Seemed like he ran into preparation, and despite trading many pieces the pawn counted for little.

MichaelBaron
14-10-2020, 08:34 AM
Seemed like he ran into preparation, and despite trading many pieces the pawn counted for little.

could certainly make Fabi's job of holding harder.

MichaelBaron
14-10-2020, 08:35 AM
Yay! Magnus is back in the lead with a solid victory over Tari.
Playing his main rival next!

Desmond
14-10-2020, 10:24 PM
could certainly make Fabi's job of holding harder.

Holding? Magnus was defending for the entire game!

Desmond
14-10-2020, 10:35 PM
Round 8
Carlsen - Tari W 3-0
Caruana - Firouzja DW 1.5 - 1
Duda (black) - Aronian DW 1.5-1

Aronian's Arma curse continues with the 4th loss from 4 tries.

Standings after round 8
1. Carlsen 16.5
2. Firouzja 15.5
3. Aronian 13
4. Caruana 12.5
5. Duda 8.5
6. Tari 1.5

The live ratings (https://2700chess.com/) haven't changed much this year obviously. But this tournament current has Firouzja gaining 18.4 pts and 4 places to world #18, passing Naka, Topalov, Harikishna, and Wei Yi.

MichaelBaron
15-10-2020, 06:44 PM
Magnus back in the lead. Not that it is surprising...

Desmond
15-10-2020, 09:48 PM
Magnus back in the lead. Not that it is surprising...

Yes, Alireza-Magnus tonight, that should more or less settle things. Though with the scoring system, it could come down to the last round.

Capablanca-Fan
16-10-2020, 07:23 AM
Yes, Alireza-Magnus tonight, that should more or less settle things. Though with the scoring system, it could come down to the last round.

Yes, Magnus gained the slightest edge in a very symmetrical position, and eventually won a P. This shouldn't have been enough to win, but Alireza inexplicably blundered on his last move and let Mag take opposition, which was enough to make Ali resign.

MichaelBaron
16-10-2020, 11:10 AM
Yes, Magnus gained the slightest edge in a very symmetrical position, and eventually won a P. This shouldn't have been enough to win, but Alireza inexplicably blundered on his last move and let Mag take opposition, which was enough to make Ali resign.

Magnus is very good at creating opportunities ''out of nothing''.

Joschobam
18-10-2020, 05:58 AM
Carlsen win the tournament. Finished with a loss to Levon Aronian with the white pieces. Firouzja fineshed on the second place.
3. Aronian

Desmond
18-10-2020, 02:32 PM
Yes the final standings were:

1 Carlsen, Magnus 19
2 Firouzja, Alireza 18
3 Aronian, Levon 17
4 Caruana, Fabiano 15
5 Duda, Jan-Krzysztof 9
6 Tari, Aryan 3

If you used conventional scoring and didn't have arma, the standings would be quite different:

1-3 Carlsen, Firouzja, Aronian 6.5/10
4 Caruana 5.5/10
5 Duda 3.5/10
6 Tari 1.5/10

Firouzja gained 20 rating points to move to world #17, passing Duda in addition to the 4 players I mentioned in #17. Aronian gained 14.4 and moves back up to #6.

Ian Rout
18-10-2020, 09:17 PM
Yes the final standings were:

1 Carlsen, Magnus 19
2 Firouzja, Alireza 18
3 Aronian, Levon 17
4 Caruana, Fabiano 15
5 Duda, Jan-Krzysztof 9
6 Tari, Aryan 3

If you used conventional scoring and didn't have arma, the standings would be quite different:

1-3 Carlsen, Firouzja, Aronian 6.5/10
4 Caruana 5.5/10
5 Duda 3.5/10
6 Tari 1.5/10
This is similar to what could be expected, with the caveat that the results might have been different if the scoring was different. The effect of the scoring system is that a player who loses the Armageddon in a drawn game is scored as if the system was 3/1/0 and the winner as if it was normal scoring but scaled up to 3/1.5/0. Or viewed another way, the loser of the Armageddon drops one-sixth of a point relative to normal scoring.

That means the Armageddons are principally a bizarre form of tie-break, where the tied players play off against different players, probably including players they didn't tie with and possibly not including the player they did tie with.

Armageddons will only reverse the order of placings where two players were close on normal scoring but not tied and have a very different Armageddon record. That could have happened with Carlsen v Aronian in this instance and that's likely to be the closest it gets.

MichaelBaron
18-10-2020, 09:23 PM
At least the current format appeared to be more fun for the public.

Desmond
18-10-2020, 09:34 PM
This is similar to what could be expected, with the caveat that the results might have been different if the scoring was different. Yes, I doubt Magnus would play so poorly in the last round if he hadn't already been assured of first.


Armageddons will only reverse the order of placings where two players were close on normal scoring but not tied and have a very different Armageddon record. That could have happened with Carlsen v Aronian in this instance and that's likely to be the closest it gets.Aronian scored well in classical but only 1/5 in arma.

Ian Rout
19-10-2020, 10:45 AM
At least the current format appeared to be more fun for the public.

No doubt, but it's a shame to ruin what could be a perfectly good Armageddon tournament with all that slow chess.

Another scoring system, which they may well use next year, is to dispense with Armageddons and instead count points from the cake-baking competition. In that system Aronian would have won.

MichaelBaron
19-10-2020, 12:19 PM
No doubt, but it's a shame to ruin what could be a perfectly good Armageddon tournament with all that slow chess.

Another scoring system, which they may well use next year, is to dispense with Armageddons and instead count points from the cake-baking competition. In that system Aronian would have won.

I think the reality is - slow chess is less spectacular so the new time controls/scoring systems do help to build up the audience. At some point, too many games in the super tournaments have been ending in boring colorless draws.

Ian Rout
19-10-2020, 01:21 PM
I think the reality is - slow chess is less spectacular so the new time controls/scoring systems do help to build up the audience. At some point, too many games in the super tournaments have been ending in boring colorless draws.I suppose the issue becomes whether people can be convinced that it's worth sitting through several hours of a potentially colourless draw for the prospect of eventually seeing an Armageddon which goes too quickly to follow or for commentators to explain. If the novelty wears off then there needs to be a constant stream of new gimmicks.

My recommendation would be a shot-glass tournament.

Desmond
19-10-2020, 02:52 PM
I suppose the issue becomes whether people can be convinced that it's worth sitting through several hours of a potentially colourless draw for the prospect of eventually seeing an Armageddon which goes too quickly to follow or for commentators to explain. If the novelty wears off then there needs to be a constant stream of new gimmicks.

My recommendation would be a shot-glass tournament.

If anything doesn't the current system reward decisive classical games though, not draws hoping to win arma?
Eg. if you play sharp classical and win 1 lose 1, you get 3 points. Play drawish classical have 2 draws and then win 1 lose 1 in arma, you get 2.5 points. I don't see how heading for arma is encouraged by the scoring system.

Ian Rout
19-10-2020, 04:41 PM
If anything doesn't the current system reward decisive classical games though, not draws hoping to win arma?
Eg. if you play sharp classical and win 1 lose 1, you get 3 points. Play drawish classical have 2 draws and then win 1 lose 1 in arma, you get 2.5 points. I don't see how heading for arma is encouraged by the scoring system.Indeed, it doesn't encourage draws. Every system rewards wins, or discourages draws, by giving more points for wins. Standard scoring gives a win twice as many; the "soccer system" gives three times. The latest Norway system is in between, but via a different mechanism.

I suppose it's saying that both drawing players have sinned, but one can be redeemed by winning an Armageddon. Except that for Black a draw will do.

Desmond
19-10-2020, 09:31 PM
Indeed, it doesn't encourage draws. Every system rewards wins, or discourages draws, by giving more points for wins. Standard scoring gives a win twice as many; the "soccer system" gives three times. The latest Norway system is in between, but via a different mechanism.

I suppose it's saying that both drawing players have sinned, but one can be redeemed by winning an Armageddon. Except that for Black a draw will do.

Not sure what point you are trying to make, Ian. The tournament was not decided by cake baking or shot drinking, but, by and large, by excellent classical games. Did you follow the games at all?

Ian Rout
20-10-2020, 01:12 PM
Not sure what point you are trying to make, Ian. The tournament was not decided by cake baking or shot drinking, but, by and large, by excellent classical games.
Well, in the immediately preceding post I was replying to and in fact agreeing with your contention that the system doesn't encourage draws; partly so as to dispel any impression that I had made such a claim. In other posts I was making two points.

1. Throwing Armageddons into a classical event tends to undermine its credibility as a classical event. [I don't really like the term "classical", but let's stick with it.] It provides colour and movement which is good, but in the end the drama in sport arises from the contest. Throwing circus elements into the rules of the contest rather than the presentation detracts from its legitimacy. The suggestions of shot glass chess or culinary competitions were making this point more starkly, though spelling it out tends to dilute the effect.

2. Notwithstanding the above, the Armageddons are a bit of a scam. The organisers try to hoodwink WWE fans that they have insinuated Armageddons into the event, when in fact they are most likely only to affect the outcome as a tie-break, and the WWE fans have to wait round for hours for one or two Armageddons with no guarantees.

Did you follow the games at all?I've followed some of the games but still to catch up on others, though I don't think that's relevant to the above points which are about the format.