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View Full Version : FIDE World Champs Carlsen vs Karjakin, New York, 11-30 Nov 2016 [POLL ADDED]



Kevin Bonham
01-03-2016, 08:24 PM
Wall Street Journal has posted:


The reigning world champion, Magnus Carlsen, who defended his title against India’s Viswanathan Anand in the World Chess Championship of 2014, will be on hand to play a yet-to-be-determined challenger in a 12-round match from Nov. 10 to Nov. 30 at a New York location that also has yet to be finalized.

Agon, the commercial partner of FIDE and the organizer of the World Chess Championship, had previously said that it wanted to hold the 2016 World Chess Championship in the U.S., with Los Angeles, San Francisco and New York emerging as preferred sites.

Ilya Merenzon, CEO of Agon, said Monday that he is in discussions with a number of New York venues, including the World Trade Center and other Manhattan locations.

Kirsan Ilyumzhinov has tweeted the link to this so I think we can safely assume it is true!

ER
01-03-2016, 08:52 PM
Yes, it's on FIDE website now! http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/9471-the-world-chess-championship-comes-to-new-york-city-.html

Kevin Bonham
11-08-2016, 10:53 PM
Match has been confirmed for the South Street Seaport in Manhatten. I am glad the Trump Tower idea was abandoned.

MichaelBaron
12-08-2016, 12:52 AM
Apparently, Fide is yet to confirm who is the chief sponsor :)

ER
11-10-2016, 09:52 AM
Apparently, Fide is yet to confirm who is the chief sponsor :)Naturally there will be traditional broadcast with partner chess news sites.

there you go

From ChessBase

World Championship 2016 – new broadcast, new sponsors

9/16/2016 – The 2016 World Championship, which will take place from November 11th to 30th in New York, has announced that it has a new sponsor, EG Capital, and has partnered with Livestream to build a Virtual Reality broadcast platform that will allow people all over the world a 360° view of the match. This is a first for any sport and will cost viewers $15 – for all twelve games. Naturally there will be traditional broadcast with partner chess news sites. Press release + video.

ER
12-10-2016, 05:24 AM
I note that it is the first time in chess history that both the holder and the contestant of a world chess title are still in their 20s!

Agent Smith
12-10-2016, 06:26 AM
And we have a mutlitmedia-styled broadcast (for those with fast internet).
All we need now is some music/dancers, and Short and some side-kick (Smurf?) doing adlib commentary like the T20 cricket.

ER
12-10-2016, 01:45 PM
3265

apologies for not having socks on, but I couldn't find a matching pair! :P :)

Ian Rout
14-10-2016, 02:54 PM
I was wondering what the bookmakers were thinking. A few are offering odds - I won't mention links but those sufficiently interested or desperate should be able to find them.

Magnus is paying $1.12 to $1.16 (for a $1 bet), and Sergey between $4.80 and $5.50. Converting the odds that I found to percentages and scaling to total 100% averages out to about 81:19 to Magnus, which sounds like a not unreasonable estimate.

The optimal betting strategy is probably to put $10 on Sergey at 5.50 and 47.41 on Magnus at 1.16. For a total outlay of 57.41 you will get back $55 whoever wins, a loss of $2.41 or 4.2%. This compares favourably to what you would lose on casino games or pokies and you can say that you backed the winner.

Agent Smith
14-10-2016, 05:22 PM
I'm wondering what you're thinking ! :)

ER
18-10-2016, 05:59 AM
Latest on broadcasting rights

https://worldchess.com/2016/10/17/an-open-letter-to-the-chess-community-on-our-new-broadcast-policy/

Kaitlin
18-10-2016, 05:09 PM
Latest on broadcasting rights

https://worldchess.com/2016/10/17/an-open-letter-to-the-chess-community-on-our-new-broadcast-policy/

Doesn't look promising :(

ER
18-10-2016, 05:58 PM
I don't really mind, I belong to that ancient generation where we had to sometimes wait 2-3 days
to know the result of the game (let alone the moves) before the late Peter Parr published it on SMH!

Kaitlin
19-10-2016, 04:32 AM
I don't really mind, I belong to that ancient generation where we had to sometimes wait 2-3 days
to know the result of the game (let alone the moves) before the late Peter Parr published it on SMH!

You've hit the nail Elliott, Argon says their not, but they are as you have pointed out, keeping chess in the dark ages :( .

Kevin Bonham
19-10-2016, 06:36 PM
Latest on broadcasting rights

https://worldchess.com/2016/10/17/an-open-letter-to-the-chess-community-on-our-new-broadcast-policy/

All consistent with their presentation at the Congress.

ER
19-10-2016, 07:35 PM
All consistent with their presentation at the Congress.

!!! was it discussed as an agenda item??

Kevin Bonham
20-10-2016, 07:49 PM
!!! was it discussed as an agenda item??

It was presented to the General Assembly and there was an opportunity for questions (I don't recall there being many.)

normanghaskell (Axiom)
20-10-2016, 10:55 PM
Maybe $15 is not too much to ask to look over a world championship player's shoulder.
It is however an interesting question whether this approach is in the best interests of chess overall.

Kaitlin
21-10-2016, 04:32 AM
I think they would be better building hype, going for product placement and cruss common advertising of the working class than exclude the poor.

They could for example approach a mobile phone manufacturer with "Our mobile phones are so good, World Class Chess Champions are banned from having them in Chess Tournaments" rofl, they are just not trying hard enough.

They just want the easy dollars of making poor people pay or be excluded. What they don't realise is Checkers and Go are just waiting for this opportunity!

ER
21-10-2016, 04:45 AM
... They could for example approach a mobile phone manufacturer with "Our mobile phones are so good, World Class Chess Champions are banned from having them in Chess Tournaments"

!!! :clap:

ChesSOS
03-11-2016, 06:27 PM
Looks like Chess24 is (again) defying the AGON ban on broadcasting the games.

https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/carlsen-karjakin-world-chess-championship-2016/1/1/1

However I haven't been able to find any official statement from them about it.

ER
04-11-2016, 07:29 AM
that's the latest I got.

I absolutely enjoy Peter Svidler's commentary, however, I am not so sure about the rest of the line-up!

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/chess24-win-moscow-case-announce-new-york-line-up

Kaitlin
06-11-2016, 06:25 AM
5 Sleeps to go :)

Kaitlin
06-11-2016, 06:31 AM
Looks like Chess24 is (again) defying the AGON ban on broadcasting the games.

https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/carlsen-karjakin-world-chess-championship-2016/1/1/1

However I haven't been able to find any official statement from them about it.

Watching on C24 is pretty good. I watch some chess on there ages ago with someone from Victoria and he knew all the nicknames of all the players (though I'm sure he was just making some up), anywho it was hilarious and fun, and an enjoyable afternoon of watching chess.

I hope they do do the World Chess.

MichaelBaron
06-11-2016, 12:10 PM
In the mean time, the organisers are trying to build up publicity...not quite successfully though: http://en.chessbase.com/post/bill-gates-denies-attendance-at-world-championship

ER
07-11-2016, 06:32 AM
meanwhile Magnus suffers from hackergate nightmares! :rolleyes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/05/king-of-chess-magnus-carlsen-calls-in-microsoft-to-fight-off-rus/

ER
07-11-2016, 06:33 AM
btw no poll for this one?

Kevin Bonham
07-11-2016, 10:20 AM
btw no poll for this one?

Poll added. Thanks for noticing - I should have added one earlier.

Kevin Bonham
07-11-2016, 10:34 AM
Finding out what time the games actually start at seems remarkably difficult. The website has a countdown timer that implies it is 1 pm local time but there is also a ticket sales site that implies it is at earliest 1:30. Anyone know?

Also starting the event so close after the POTUS election may not be the best of moves in terms of obtaining publicity.

Anyway NY is 16 hours behind AEDST so that seems to suggest games will be starting early in the morning, maybe 5, 5:30 or 6 our time.

Max Illingworth
07-11-2016, 12:41 PM
Chess.com is giving 2pm EST (https://www.chess.com/news/view/how-to-follow-carlsen-vs-karjakin-on-chess-com-1761). With daylight savings already factored in, that makes it a 6am start for Sydney.

Ian Rout
07-11-2016, 01:21 PM
Chess.com is giving 2pm EST (https://www.chess.com/news/view/how-to-follow-carlsen-vs-karjakin-on-chess-com-1761). With daylight savings already factored in, that makes it a 6am start for Sydney.chess24 is going this way too.

Jesper Norgaard
07-11-2016, 09:17 PM
Chess.com is giving 2pm EST (https://www.chess.com/news/view/how-to-follow-carlsen-vs-karjakin-on-chess-com-1761). With daylight savings already factored in, that makes it a 6am start for Sydney.

That appears to be correct:

Time Calculator Report
Report was generated : 12.13.03 Monday 7. November 2016 +0100 CET

When it is 14.00.00 Friday 11. November 2016 -0500 EST
in USA - New York, New York (GMT-5,0) ®
DST start : 2.00.00 Sunday 13. March 2016 -0500 EST
DST end : 2.00.00 Sunday 6. November 2016 -0400 EDT

then it is 6.00.00 Saturday 12. November 2016 +1100 AEDT
in Australia - New South Wales, Sydney (GMT+10,0) ® - Daylight Saving is active
DST start : 2.00.00 Sunday 4. October 2015 +1000 AEST
DST end : 3.00.00 Sunday 3. April 2016 +1100 AEDT
DST start : 2.00.00 Sunday 2. October 2016 +1000 AEST
DST end : 3.00.00 Sunday 2. April 2017 +1100 AEDT

Notably New York has just left Daylight Saving Time yesterday (Sunday).

ER
09-11-2016, 07:50 PM
Poll added. Thanks for noticing - I should have added one earlier.

thanks, Kev!

Kevin Bonham
09-11-2016, 08:18 PM
Maybe they should have gone for Trump Tower as the venue after all!

MichaelBaron
10-11-2016, 10:58 AM
Maybe they should have gone for Trump Tower as the venue after all!

Well, Illmuzhinov claims that he asked Trump to make the first move in Game 1 onf the match :)

Kevin Bonham
10-11-2016, 11:43 AM
Well, Illmuzhinov claims that he asked Trump to make the first move in Game 1 onf the match :)

Trump might be able to meet some American grandmasters that way and see that they actually do exist!

ER
11-11-2016, 06:10 AM
Hi Kev, do we know if there will be a delay in the broadcast? I mean a half hour extra sleep won't hurt anyone! :)

Kevin Bonham
11-11-2016, 09:12 AM
Hi Kev, do we know if there will be a delay in the broadcast? I mean a half hour extra sleep won't hurt anyone! :)

I don't know this.

ER
11-11-2016, 12:10 PM
The players were being cagey, as you would expect, about their seconds:
Karjakin: Vladimir Potkin and also Alexander Motylev, but of course I have some contacts in my Skype – Skype is helping me!
Carlsen: My coach Peter Heine Nielsen is here, well, not here, but in the city. Apart from that. Yeah, not going to say anything!

An interview with GM Peter Heine Nielsen conducted during my visit to Copenhagen 3 years ago can be found here:

http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?5069-An-interview-Added-FM-Doug-Hamilton&highlight=an+interview

#621

Kevin Bonham
12-11-2016, 05:49 AM
I thought I should pay the $15 (actually $13.50 which comes out to AUS $17.50) to watch the broadcast so I could make informed comment about how good or bad it is.

It is atrocious.

Kevin Bonham
12-11-2016, 07:59 AM
To elaborate on the above:

* broadcast either doesn't work or is hard to get to work in Chrome
* in Firefox, broadcast is buggy. I find a lot of script freezes, difficulty scrolling, memory hogging and other problems. I am having to watch the broadcast on a separate computer to sort-of get around this.
* many problems with chatbox - lag, comments sometimes appear sometimes don't, expert comments often appear twice. At one stage I tried to post a comment and it appeared under the name "Peter Nosworthy"
* for a long time, board was very buggy, tending to flash backwards and forwards between board position and starting position. Either this stopped eventually or I accidentally found a way to stop it
* Judit is OK but the other commentators constantly ask her irritating questions and sometimes say things that are plain dumb (early on I heard something like "when I play chess I become like an animal"). It seems like they are not sure whether they are trying to broadcast for beginners or people with some idea. I'd prefer a discussion between two GMs to this style of commentary where one expert is doing all the work.

Ian CCC
12-11-2016, 09:13 AM
I'd prefer a discussion between two GMs to this style of commentary where one expert is doing all the work.

Chess24 seemed to offer a reasonable broadcast with 2 GMs commentating for free. One short break in transmission early on, but otherwise ok.

MichaelBaron
12-11-2016, 10:11 AM
Game one was interesting (did not watch it live but had a quick look at it after I got up). Carlsen tested candidate's nerves by attempting to outplay him slowly.

Leonid Sandler
12-11-2016, 10:27 AM
Some experts predictions can be seen http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/checkmate/1102803.html

Kevin Bonham
12-11-2016, 11:09 AM
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 d5 3.e3 c5 4.Bxf6 gxf6 5.dxc5 Nc6 6.Bb5 e6 7.c4 dxc4 8.Nd2 Bxc5 9.Ngf3 0-0 10.0-0 Na5 11.Rc1 Be7 12.Qc2 Bd7 13.Bxd7 Qxd7 14.Qc3 Qd5 15.Nxc4 Nxc4 16.Qxc4 Qxc4 17.Rxc4 Rfc8 18.Rfc1 Rxc4 19.Rxc4 Rd8 20.g3 Rd7 21.Kf1 f5 22.Ke2 Bf6 23.b3 Kf8 24.h3 h6 25.Ne1 Ke7 26.Nd3 Kd8 27.f4 h5 28.a4 Rd5 29.Nc5 b6 30.Na6 Be7 31.Nb8 a5 32.Nc6+ Ke8 33.Ne5 Bc5 34.Rc3 Ke7 35.Rd3 Rxd3 36.Kxd3 f6 37.Nc6+ Kd6 38.Nd4 Kd5 39.Nb5 Kc6 40.Nd4+ Kd6 41.Nb5+ Kd7 42.Nd4 Kd6 1/2-1/2

Leonid Sandler
12-11-2016, 06:03 PM
Russian TV channel МАТЧ! НАШ СПОРТ will be translating all games live!

Kaitlin
12-11-2016, 06:59 PM
My guess is 6-6 tie with Karjakin winning
but you closed the poll :(

Agent Smith
12-11-2016, 07:37 PM
Begeezus RR. Karjakin +2 !?

Desmond
13-11-2016, 04:16 AM
Begeezus RR. Karjakin +2 !?

I'm surprised no one backed a playoff.

Kevin Bonham
13-11-2016, 08:10 AM
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a3 0-0 9.Nc3 Na5 10.Ba2 Be6 11.d4 Bxa2 12.Rxa2 Re8 13.Ra1 Nc4 14.Re1 Rc8 15.h3 h6 16.b3 Nb6 17.Bb2 Bf8 18.dxe5 dxe5 19.a4 c6 20.Qxd8 Rcxd8 21.axb5 axb5 22.Ne2 Bb4 23.Bc3 Bxc3 24.Nxc3 Nbd7 25.Ra6 Rc8 26.b4 Re6 27.Rb1 c5 28.Rxe6 fxe6 29.Nxb5 cxb4 30.Rxb4 Rxc2 31.Nd6 Rc1+ 32.Kh2 Rc2 33.Kg1 1/2-1/2

MichaelBaron
13-11-2016, 10:37 AM
The way Karjakin played with white pieces clearly demonstrates the difference between the two players...As Kasparov said in his interview last night ''anything can happen in the match but the players belong to different categories''.

Kaitlin
13-11-2016, 12:03 PM
The way Karjakin played with white pieces clearly demonstrates the difference between the two players...As Kasparov said in his interview last night ''anything can happen in the match but the players belong to different categories''.

What's that suppost to mean.

Truth is Magnus is going to start seeing draws as loses, and he'll start losing the psychological side of the game.

Sergey doesn't play chess for fun (which is sad really :( )

Ian Rout
13-11-2016, 04:31 PM
Truth is Magnus is going to start seeing draws as loses, and he'll start losing the psychological side of the game.
I don't see that draws will worry him; 1-0 with eleven draws is fine. His openings in the first two games reflect a strategy of not taking major risks but keeping enough play in the position that he can try to win if a safe opportunity arises, rather than worrying about the optics of being held to a draw.

jammo
13-11-2016, 08:58 PM
What's that suppost to mean.

Truth is Magnus is going to start seeing draws as loses, and he'll start losing the psychological side of the game.

Sergey doesn't play chess for fun (which is sad really :( )

Truth is Kaitlin is already starting to see losses as loses. I doubt that she will understand what that is supposed to mean (which is sad really :( )

Capablanca-Fan
14-11-2016, 04:24 AM
The way Karjakin played with white pieces clearly demonstrates the difference between the two players...As Kasparov said in his interview last night ''anything can happen in the match but the players belong to different categories''.
I also don't know what that's supposed to mean. Neither player got anything with the white pieces.

Kevin Bonham
14-11-2016, 10:42 PM
Magnus on The Donald:

"“I’m a big fan of Donald Trump,” Carlsen told Norway’s TV2 in March (in Norwegian). “Trump is incredibly good at finding opponents’ weaknesses. He speaks only about that the other candidates are stupid or smelly. There should be more of this in chess, too.” Carlsen then offered a Trumpism of his own: “Karjakin is incredibly boring!” Karjakin, for his political part, is an avowed supporter of Vladimir Putin."

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/draws-and-politics-at-the-world-chess-championship/

MichaelBaron
15-11-2016, 02:57 AM
Magnus on The Donald:

"“I’m a big fan of Donald Trump,” Carlsen told Norway’s TV2 in March (in Norwegian). “Trump is incredibly good at finding opponents’ weaknesses. He speaks only about that the other candidates are stupid or smelly. There should be more of this in chess, too.” Carlsen then offered a Trumpism of his own: “Karjakin is incredibly boring!” Karjakin, for his political part, is an avowed supporter of Vladimir Putin."

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/draws-and-politics-at-the-world-chess-championship/

And Carlsen is correct...at least about Karjakin :).

Kaitlin
15-11-2016, 04:33 AM
And Carlsen is correct...at least about Karjakin :).

Noooo..... (we'll he does spend 5 hours a day studying chess :eek: ..... But..) ... he also get invites to society partys, drives a sports car and lives in a large 2 story house in Gorki which is near a large park in Moscow

Kevin Bonham
15-11-2016, 08:18 AM
The bugs in the broadcast from the first round are all fixed. Also, Judit's commentary is more flowing now than in the first round. The only remaining problem is the male commentator who asks dumb questions.

MichaelBaron
15-11-2016, 09:53 AM
Noooo..... (we'll he does spend 5 hours a day studying chess :eek: ..... But..) ... he also get invites to society partys, drives a sports car and lives in a large 2 story house in Gorki which is near a large park in Moscow
I think would be good for Karjakin to read a book or two...preferably not a chess book :).

MichaelBaron
15-11-2016, 09:54 AM
Very interesting endgame. I think black can draw with accurate play but playing accurately is difficult. So far Karjakin has been defending very well. 48...Rh5+ was the best defensive resource available!

Kevin Bonham
15-11-2016, 12:06 PM
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Be7 7.Bf1 Nxe5 8.Rxe5 0-0 9.d4 Bf6 10.Re2 b6 11.Re1 Re8 12.Bf4 Rxe1 13.Qxe1 Qe7 14.Nc3 Bb7 15.Qxe7 Bxe7 16.a4 a6 17.g3 g5 18.Bxd6 Bxd6 19.Bg2 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 f5 21.Nd5 Kf7 22.Ne3 Kf6 23.Nc4 Bf8 24.Re1 Rd8 25.f4 gxf4 26.gxf4 b5 27.axb5 axb5 28.Ne3 c6 29.Kf3 Ra8 30.Rg1 Ra2 31.b3 c5 32.Rg8 Kf7 33.Rg2 cxd4 34.Nxf5 d3 35.cxd3 Ra1 36.Nd4 b4 37.Rg5 Rb1 38.Rf5+ Ke8 39.Rb5 Rf1+ 40.Ke4 Re1+ 41.Kf5 Rd1 42.Re5+ Kf7 43.Rd5 Rxd3 44.Rxd7+ Ke8 45.Rd5 Rh3 46.Re5+ Kf7 47.Re2 Bg7 48.Nc6 Rh5+ 49.Kg4 Rc5 50.Nd8+ Kg6 51.Ne6 h5+ 52.Kf3 Rc3+ 53.Ke4 Bf6 54.Re3 h4 55.h3 Rc1 56.Nf8+ Kf7 57.Nd7 Ke6 58.Nb6 Rd1 59.f5+ Kf7 60.Nc4 Rd4+ 61.Kf3 Bg5 62.Re4 Rd3+ 63.Kg4 Rg3+ 64.Kh5 Be7 65.Ne5+ Kf6 66.Ng4+ Kf7 67.Re6 Rxh3 68.Ne5+ Kg7 69.Rxe7+ Kf6 70.Nc6 Kxf5 71.Na5 Rh1 72.Rb7 Ra1 73.Rb5+ Kf4 74.Rxb4+ Kg3 75.Rg4+ Kf2 76.Nc4 h3 77.Rh4 Kg3 78.Rg4+ Kf2 1/2-1/2

Key points (provisional, subject to further analysis by people with better computers or drawing ideas!)

1. 30...Ra2 is inaccurate and then 31...c5 is bad too. The problem with 30...Ra2 31.b3 as opposed to just 30...Bh6 immediately is that white loses the option of Ra4 with Bh6. This gives white time to potentially open up with d5.

2. Carlsen drifts for a while and Karjakin defends well. Probably 42.Rb8+ is stronger.

3. On move 60 Karjakin ran his clock down to seconds using up a lot of time before playing an obvious move.

4. Karjakin makes an error with 63...Rg3+ instead of Bf6. Even after that the idea of giving up the piece appears to draw if played perfectly but that is not so easy to be sure of doing.

5. 70...Kxf5 looks incorrect and it appears here that ...Rc3 is better

6. 71.Re1 looks like it is winning, stopping black's rook from going to h1. After 71.Na5 it appears drawn and remains so for the rest of the game.

MichaelBaron
15-11-2016, 01:45 PM
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Be7 7.Bf1 Nxe5 8.Rxe5 0-0 9.d4 Bf6 10.Re2 b6 11.Re1 Re8 12.Bf4 Rxe1 13.Qxe1 Qe7 14.Nc3 Bb7 15.Qxe7 Bxe7 16.a4 a6 17.g3 g5 18.Bxd6 Bxd6 19.Bg2 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 f5 21.Nd5 Kf7 22.Ne3 Kf6 23.Nc4 Bf8 24.Re1 Rd8 25.f4 gxf4 26.gxf4 b5 27.axb5 axb5 28.Ne3 c6 29.Kf3 Ra8 30.Rg1 Ra2 31.b3 c5 32.Rg8 Kf7 33.Rg2 cxd4 34.Nxf5 d3 35.cxd3 Ra1 36.Nd4 b4 37.Rg5 Rb1 38.Rf5+ Ke8 39.Rb5 Rf1+ 40.Ke4 Re1+ 41.Kf5 Rd1 42.Re5+ Kf7 43.Rd5 Rxd3 44.Rxd7+ Ke8 45.Rd5 Rh3 46.Re5+ Kf7 47.Re2 Bg7 48.Nc6 Rh5+ 49.Kg4 Rc5 50.Nd8+ Kg6 51.Ne6 h5+ 52.Kf3 Rc3+ 53.Ke4 Bf6 54.Re3 h4 55.h3 Rc1 56.Nf8+ Kf7 57.Nd7 Ke6 58.Nb6 Rd1 59.f5+ Kf7 60.Nc4 Rd4+ 61.Kf3 Bg5 62.Re4 Rd3+ 63.Kg4 Rg3+ 64.Kh5 Be7 65.Ne5+ Kf6 66.Ng4+ Kf7 67.Re6 Rxh3 68.Ne5+ Kg7 69.Rxe7+ Kf6 70.Nc6 Kxf5 71.Na5 Rh1 72.Rb7 Ra1 73.Rb5+ Kf4 74.Rxb4+ Kg3 75.Rg4+ Kf2 76.Nc4 h3 77.Rh4 Kg3 78.Rg4+ Kf2 1/2-1/2

Key points (provisional, subject to further analysis by people with better computers or drawing ideas!)

1. 30...Ra2 is inaccurate and then 31...c5 is bad too. The problem with 30...Ra2 31.b3 as opposed to just 30...Bh6 immediately is that white loses the option of Ra4 with Bh6. This gives white time to potentially open up with d5.

2. Carlsen drifts for a while and Karjakin defends well. Probably 42.Rb8+ is stronger.

3. On move 60 Karjakin ran his clock down to seconds using up a lot of time before playing an obvious move.

4. Karjakin makes an error with 63...Rg3+ instead of Bf6. Even after that the idea of giving up the piece appears to draw if played perfectly but that is not so easy to be sure of doing.

5. 70...Kxf5 looks incorrect and it appears here that ...Rc3 is better

6. 71.Re1 looks like it is winning, stopping black's rook from going to h1. After 71.Na5 it appears drawn and remains so for the rest of the game.

Sadly Karjakin escaped. 42.Rb8+ is indeed winning according to Radjabov's twitter :)

Agent Smith
15-11-2016, 06:05 PM
Carlsen missed this game.

Kevin Bonham
15-11-2016, 07:07 PM
Sagar Shah here: http://chessbase.in/news/wcc-2016-round-3/ has posted that 70.Re8 wins, which if true (and it looks convincing) means the piece sac was unsound.

He also says 72.Rf7+ still wins, which I think is also true.

I think this is consistent with Agent Smith's graph above.

James Watson
15-11-2016, 09:22 PM
Funny that the Berlin was the closest we came to a decisive game so far

Kaitlin
15-11-2016, 09:30 PM
Funny that the Berlin was the closest we came to a decisive game so far

Expand !

[Ah ....Kevin's link probably ]

A draw is a draw :)

Kevin Bonham
15-11-2016, 10:08 PM
Funny that the Berlin was the closest we came to a decisive game so far

It was a pretty boring game for the first couple of hours too!

Most of the mistakes there were in this game just showed what a difficult position it was, right from when Magnus started getting something out of nothing as he does, until the end. An epic that I won't be forgetting in a hurry.

So I wonder if we will see a theoretical battle about this line now or if Carlsen and team will switch to something else.

MichaelBaron
16-11-2016, 11:22 AM
Karjakin appears to be protected by some kind of black magic...

Kevin Bonham
16-11-2016, 11:28 AM
18.Bxh6 was a mistake, Karjakin overlooked ...Qc6. Karjakin says 45...f4 was a bad move allowing the draw. Carlsen agrees.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.a3 Qd7 11.Nbd2 Rfe8 12.c3 Bf8 13.Nf1 h6 14.N3h2 d5 15.Qf3 Na5 16.Ba2 dxe4 17.dxe4 Nc4 18.Bxh6 Qc6 19.Bxc4 bxc4 20.Be3 Nxe4 21.Ng3 Nd6 22.Rad1 Rab8 23.Bc1 f6 24.Qxc6 Bxc6 25.Ng4 Rb5 26.f3 f5 27.Nf2 Be7 28.f4 Bh4 29.fxe5 Bxg3 30.exd6 Rxe1+ 31.Rxe1 cxd6 32.Rd1 Kf7 33.Rd4 Re5 34.Kf1 Rd5 35.Rxd5 Bxd5 36.Bg5 Kg6 37.h4 Kh5 38.Nh3 Bf7 39.Be7 Bxh4 40.Bxd6 Bd8 41.Ke2 g5 42.Nf2 Kg6 43.g4 Bb6 44.Be5 a5 45.Nd1 f4 46.Bd4 Bc7 47.Nf2 Be6 48.Kf3 Bd5+ 49.Ke2 Bg2 50.Kd2 Kf7 51.Kc2 Bd5 52.Kd2 Bd8 53.Kc2 Ke6 54.Kd2 Kd7 55.Kc2 Kc6 56.Kd2 Kb5 57.Kc1 Ka4 58.Kc2 Bf7 59.Kc1 Bg6 60.Kd2 Kb3 61.Kc1 Bd3 62.Nh3 Ka2 63.Bc5 Be2 64.Nf2 Bf3 65.Kc2 Bc6 66.Bd4 Bd7 67.Bc5 Bc7 68.Bd4 Be6 69.Bc5 f3 70.Be3 Bd7 71.Kc1 Bc8 72.Kc2 Bd7 73.Kc1 Bf4 74.Bxf4 gxf4 75.Kc2 Be6 76.Kc1 Bc8 77.Kc2 Be6 78.Kc1 Kb3 79.Kb1 Ka4 80.Kc2 Kb5 81.Kd2 Kc6 82.Ke1 Kd5 83.Kf1 Ke5 84.Kg1 Kf6 85.Ne4+ Kg6 86.Kf2 Bxg4 87.Nd2 Be6 88.Kxf3 Kf5 89.a4 Bd5+ 90.Kf2 Kg4 91.Nf1 Kg5 92.Nd2 Kf5 93.Ke2 Kg4 94.Kf2 1/2-1/2

Kevin Bonham
16-11-2016, 12:21 PM
Magnus was disappointed with himself for carelessly allowing a fortress; he did not imagine that even when he got his king to b3 there would still be one. He said that he is not a great believer in fortresses in chess because he usually finds a way to break them down, and said that Anand tries to set up a fortress whenever Anand is worse.

ER
16-11-2016, 01:14 PM
Karjakin appears to be protected by some kind of black magic...

3313

Mother Russia is on his side! :)

Kevin Bonham
16-11-2016, 01:29 PM
There was a joke about Putin making Karjakin the Minister of Defence.

ER
16-11-2016, 01:38 PM
There was a joke about Putin making Karjakin the Minister of Defence.

yes, and Karjakin (laughing) replied he would accept the offer! :)
I bet he wouldn't make as much as a chess world championship challenger though! :)

Vlad
16-11-2016, 03:36 PM
Officially or unofficially? One of the Russian ministers was caught yesterday receiving a bribe of $2 mln USA.

Adamski
16-11-2016, 10:40 PM
I think would be good for Karjakin to read a book or two...preferably not a chess book :).How about Gorky Park, if what Kaitlin said about his home's location is true? A good murder mystery! Must say Sergey is going very well, eh what Basil!

Basil
16-11-2016, 10:49 PM
7ZS2-4-iUJ4

Adamski
16-11-2016, 10:56 PM
So is Magnus Captain James T Kirk and Sergey a Klingon?

Basil
16-11-2016, 10:58 PM
So is Magnus Captain James T Kirk and Sergey a Klingon?

Karjakkin' across the universe...

Adamski
16-11-2016, 11:06 PM
karjakkin' across the universe...lol!

MichaelBaron
18-11-2016, 02:31 AM
Everyone interviewed about the match (Karpov, Nepo, Khalifman etc.) appears to be urging Karjakin to start playing more actively. Lets see what happens in game 5...

Kevin Bonham
18-11-2016, 10:19 AM
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.a4 d6 7.c3 a6 8.b4 Ba7 9.Re1 Ne7 10.Nbd2 Ng6 11.d4 c6 12.h3 exd4 13.cxd4 Nxe4 14.Bxf7+ Rxf7 15.Nxe4 d5 16.Nc5 h6 17.Ra3 Bf5 18.Ne5 Nxe5 19.dxe5 Qh4 20.Rf3 Bxc5 21.bxc5 Re8 22.Rf4 Qe7 23.Qd4 Ref8 24.Rf3 Be4 25.Rxf7 Qxf7 26.f3 Bf5 27.Kh2 Be6 28.Re2 Qg6 29.Be3 Rf7 30.Rf2 Qb1 31.Rb2 Qf5 32.a5 Kf8 33.Qc3 Ke8 34.Rb4 g5 35.Rb2 Kd8 36.Rf2 Kc8 37.Qd4 Qg6 38.g4 h5 39.Qd2 Rg7 40.Kg3 Rg8 41.Kg2 hxg4 42.hxg4 d4 43.Qxd4 Bd5 44.e6 Qxe6 45.Kg3 Qe7 46.Rh2 Qf7 47.f4 gxf4+ 48.Qxf4 Qe7 49.Rh5 Rf8 50.Rh7 Rxf4 51.Rxe7 Re4 1/2-1/2

Carlsen got in trouble from about 38.g4 on and 44...Qh7 looked especially dangerous.

Kevin Bonham
18-11-2016, 10:26 AM
Grumpy Carlsen in the press conference and post-game interview.

Kaitlin
18-11-2016, 03:53 PM
Grumpy Carlsen in the press conference and post-game interview.

Cracks are starting to show ....

MichaelBaron
19-11-2016, 10:49 AM
Game 6 was most uneventful so far.

Kaitlin
19-11-2016, 04:43 PM
Some GM's and MB want Sergey to play more aggressively. .... but I think he should continue to stick to my game plan

Kevin Bonham
21-11-2016, 07:20 AM
Magnus made a mistake (16...Rc8) in what looked like a good position but there didn't seem to be any chance for Karjakin to exploit it. Wake up Magnus!

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 a6 5.Bd3 dxc4 6.Bxc4 e6 7.Nf3 c5 8.0-0 b5 9.Be2 Bb7 10.dxc5 Nc6 11.Nd2 Bxc5 12.Nde4 Nxe4 13.Nxe4 Be7 14.b3 Nb4 15.Bf3 0-0 16.Ba3 Rc8 17.Nf6+ Bxf6 18.Bxb7 Bxa1 19.Bxb4 Bf6 20.Bxf8 Qxd1 21.Rxd1 Rxf8 22.Bxa6 b4 23.Rc1 g6 24.Rc2 Ra8 25.Bd3 Rd8 26.Be2 Kf8 27.Kf1 Ra8 28.Bc4 Rc8 29.Ke2 Ke7 30.f4 h6 31.Kf3 Rc7 32.g4 g5 33.Ke4 Rc8 1/2-1/2

MichaelBaron
21-11-2016, 01:31 PM
Magnus was already slightly better (as black!) when he blundered. Very lucky that the position was still good enough to survive pawn down.

Desmond
21-11-2016, 04:42 PM
David Smerdon did analysis video for ICC on game 2. It's behind a paywall though.
https://www.chessclub.com/videos/fide-world-championship-2016-game-2?autoplay

Kaitlin
21-11-2016, 05:42 PM
David Smerdon did analysis video for ICC on game 2. It's behind a paywall though.
https://www.chessclub.com/videos/fide-world-championship-2016-game-2?autoplay

Spoiler Alert: It ends up being a ..... draw ... :uhoh:

Adamski
22-11-2016, 06:37 AM
And another one....

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2016, 10:12 AM
Unbelievable. Generally a bad game by Carlsen who now has to win at least one of the next four.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Bb2 b6 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.Qe2 Nbd7 11.c4 dxc4 12.Nxc4 Qe7 13.a3 a5 14.Nd4 Rfd8 15.Rfd1 Rac8 16.Rac1 Nf8 17.Qe1 Ng6 18.Bf1 Ng4 19.Nb5 Bc6 20.a4 Bd5 21.Bd4 Bxc4 22.Rxc4 Bxd4 23.Rdxd4 Rxc4 24.bxc4 Nf6 25.Qd2 Rb8 26.g3 Ne5 27.Bg2 h6 28.f4 Ned7 29.Na7 Qa3 30.Nc6 Rf8 31.h3 Nc5 32.Kh2 Nxa4 33.Rd8 g6 34.Qd4 Kg7 35.c5 Rxd8 36.Nxd8 Nxc5 37.Qd6 Qd3 38.Nxe6+ fxe6 39.Qe7+ Kg8 40.Qxf6 a4 41.e4 Qd7 42.Qxg6+ Qg7 43.Qe8+ Qf8 44.Qc6 Qd8 45.f5 a3 46.fxe6 Kg7 47.e7 Qxe7 48.Qxb6 Nd3 49.Qa5 Qc5 50.Qa6 Ne5 51.Qe6 h5 52.h4 a2 0-1

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2016, 10:34 AM
Carlsen apparently showed up at the press conference but got annoyed with it taking too long to get it started and left before it started. He may be fined for non-attendance.

Capablanca-Fan
22-11-2016, 10:35 AM
Unbelievable. Generally a bad game by Carlsen who now has to win at least one of the next four.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Bb2 b6 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.Qe2 Nbd7 11.c4 dxc4 12.Nxc4 Qe7 13.a3 a5 14.Nd4 Rfd8 15.Rfd1 Rac8 16.Rac1 Nf8 17.Qe1 Ng6 18.Bf1 Ng4 19.Nb5 Bc6 20.a4 Bd5 21.Bd4 Bxc4 22.Rxc4 Bxd4 23.Rdxd4 Rxc4 24.bxc4 Nf6 25.Qd2 Rb8 26.g3 Ne5 27.Bg2 h6 28.f4 Ned7 29.Na7 Qa3 30.Nc6 Rf8 31.h3 Nc5 32.Kh2 Nxa4 33.Rd8 g6 34.Qd4 Kg7 35.c5 Rxd8 36.Nxd8 Nxc5 37.Qd6 Qd3 38.Nxe6+ fxe6 39.Qe7+ Kg8 40.Qxf6 a4 41.e4 Qd7 42.Qxg6+ Qg7 43.Qe8+ Qf8 44.Qc6 Qd8 45.f5 a3 46.fxe6 Kg7 47.e7 Qxe7 48.Qxb6 Nd3 49.Qa5 Qc5 50.Qa6 Ne5 51.Qe6 h5 52.h4 a2 0-1
Carlsen's opening reminded me a little of your latest club game ;) I thought he gained a good space advantage and control of the open file with some chances. Then he unnecessarily lost one of his Q-side Ps for no compensation. After that, his desperate Q-side play gave him enough to draw (e.g. 42.Qg6+). Maybe Carlsen was trying too hard for a win. 51.Qe6 was the losing move.

If Karjakin wins the match, that will be one of the biggest upsets since Euwe upset Alekhine, since he is ranked only 9th. But he will become the 16th true (lineal) world champ.

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2016, 11:08 AM
Carlsen's opening reminded me a little of your latest club game ;)

Yes I was thinking "this is a bit like what I was trying to do in my game last night except it isn't awful".


Maybe Carlsen was trying too hard for a win. 51.Qe6 was the losing move.

51.Qe6 is certainly losing. There is a question whether White is already losing anyway that will take a lot of analysis to resolve. If White is still holding then it is very difficult and technical.

In the press conference Karjakin said that he saw Carlsen had 38.Nxe6+ and he looked at 37...Qa4 (which is best) but didn't play it because he just did not have enough time left to be sure Carlsen did not have a win.

Ian Rout
22-11-2016, 12:55 PM
If Karjakin wins the match, that will be one of the biggest upsets since Euwe upset Alekhine, since he is ranked only 9th. But he will become the 16th true (lineal) world champ.Of course there were no rating lists in those days so Euwe's underdog status was by common consent. Sonas retrospectively rates Euwe as world number 3, or number 2 of players who weren't Alekhine, and only about 30 points behind the champion going into the match, .

MichaelBaron
22-11-2016, 01:56 PM
Carlsen apparently showed up at the press conference but got annoyed with it taking too long to get it started and left before it started. He may be fined for non-attendance.

Events of the match make one believe in fate...Karjakin was losing in his semifinal in worldcup to Eljanov so almost failed to qualified for the candidates. Now he is saving all the losing positions miraculously and winning a drawn one...If he wins the title- this got to be fate. Certainly not a world champion to have...playing for a draw in every game.

Rincewind
22-11-2016, 02:25 PM
Events of the match make one believe in fate...Karjakin was losing in his semifinal in worldcup to Eljanov so almost failed to qualified for the candidates. Now he is saving all the losing positions miraculously and winning a drawn one...If he wins the title- this got to be fate. Certainly not a world champion to have...playing for a draw in every game.

What do you mean by 'fate'? Some higher power has preordained his win?

ER
22-11-2016, 02:51 PM
Certainly not a world champion to have...playing for a draw in every game.

He doesn't usually play like that! Don't forget that in this match he is playing against Magnus who is considered as the stronger player in the world
and this might be his overall strategy in order to wear down the world champion.

Nevertheless, you are the strongest (*) player who comments here, so you must know what you are talking about!

(*)Well, Max, Vlad and Leonid have also posted on this thread, but their comments have had nothing to do with the result and/or performance
of the two players so far.

MichaelBaron
22-11-2016, 03:44 PM
He doesn't usually play like that! Don't forget that in this match he is playing against Magnus who is considered as the stronger player in the world
and this might be his overall strategy in order to wear down the world champion.

Nevertheless, you are the strongest (*) player who comments here, so you must know what you are talking about!

(*)Well, Max, Vlad and Leonid have also posted on this thread, but their comments have had nothing to do with the result and/or performance
of the two players so far.


Well...he usually plays like that :). See his games in recent tournaments, for instance his latest individual tournament appearance in Spain.

Adamski
22-11-2016, 04:17 PM
Karjakin is like a good soccer team. Strong defence and occaionally take an opportunity for a 1-0 scoreline!

ER
22-11-2016, 04:49 PM
Well...he usually plays like that :). See his games in recent tournaments, for instance his latest individual tournament appearance in Spain.

I was looking at his candidates performance... In recent tournaments I won't judge since he didn't want to reveal his plans to Magnus.. In fact he lost to him so easy, which is proved to be not the case at NY City!

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2016, 06:42 PM
http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/9922-magnus-carlsen-declined-to-attend-the-press-conference.html

FIDE statement re Magnus doing a runner.

I'm not a huge fan of making the loser attend the press conference. They're usually grumpy and journalists ask them dumb questions that make them worse. Press conference with just the winner was good.

ElevatorEscapee
22-11-2016, 06:58 PM
What do you mean by 'fate'? Some higher power has preordained his win?

Don't worry Rincewind, the "Higher Power" might be revealed when you subscribe to the next chess "pay per view"! :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcXhMSOLJKM

Kaitlin
22-11-2016, 07:43 PM
I'm not saying anything :)

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2016, 08:51 PM
Caruana annotates game 8:

http://en.chessbase.com/post/newsblog-wcc-carlsen-karjakin-2016-11-22

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2016, 09:11 PM
One bookmaker has Karjakin 4/9 (1.44) favourite now compared to Carlsen 13/8 (2.63)

Kevin Bonham
22-11-2016, 09:34 PM
Just a little question even after Carlson losses the Queen, my engine doesn't seem to find a breakthrough for black, I wonder if anyone can find how to win?

Leaving the queen on f2 and bringing the king all the way around the back towards g1 looks like it does it to me, if nothing else works. I did wonder if there might be some kind of fortress attempt though.

MIRKO
22-11-2016, 09:54 PM
Leaving the queen on f2 and bringing the king all the way around the back towards g1 looks like it does it to me, if nothing else works. I did wonder if there might be some kind of fortress attempt though.

thanks i thought it didn't look too hard, but i had the setup wrong on Fritz.

Agent Smith
23-11-2016, 04:52 PM
Caruana annotates game 8:

http://en.chessbase.com/post/newsblog-wcc-carlsen-karjakin-2016-11-22

A huge win for Karjakin, to pull ahead in the match with Black and so close to the finish line. Carlsen's unimpressive play throughout the match might give added confidence to Karjakin, but as we've seen time and again, Carlsen has the unique ability to pull himelf together and bring tournaments and matches back in the eleventh hour, even when the odds are stacked against him. Perhaps this painful loss and the rest day before the ninth game will be enough of a wake-up for Carlsen to get his play together for the last four games.
Yes... a great win for Serge alright. Going to be very tough for Magnus now.

Kevin Bonham
23-11-2016, 11:58 PM
That ability of Carlsen's isn't quite unique - Sergei has it too, that's why he's here.

I do hope Carlsen gets his act together in the last four games. It would be a shame if he loses his title just by trying too hard to win games against a resilient (and lucky) opponent.

Kevin Bonham
24-11-2016, 05:35 AM
The stem game for today's game is Nakamura-Kasimdzhanov, Tromso 2014:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bc5 7. c3 d6 8. a4 Rb8 9. d4 Bb6 10. Na3 O-O 11. axb5 axb5 12. Nxb5 Bg4 13. Bc2 exd4 14. Nbxd4 Nxd4 15. cxd4 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Nh5 17. Kh1 Qf6 18. Be3 c5 19. e5 Qe6 20. exd6 c4 21. b3 c3 22. d5 Qxd6 23. Ra6 Nf4 24. Ra4 Ng6 25. Qd3 Bc7 26. f4 Rfd8 27. Rd1 Qf6 28. Rc4 Bd6 29. Qxc3 Qxc3 30. Rxc3 Nxf4 31. Rc6 Be5 32. d6 Ne6 33. Bf5 Rxb3 34. Bb6 Rxb6 35. Rxb6 Nd4 36. f4 Bf6 37. Bh3 Ne2 38. Rb4 g6 39. d7 Kf8 40. Rc4 Nc3 41. Rd3 Ke7 42. Rc8 1-0

Desmond
24-11-2016, 07:05 AM
Looks like nice safe edge for Karjakin.

Kevin Bonham
24-11-2016, 10:44 AM
In this game Karjakin was better for a long time and pressing for a win. 39.Qb3 was a crucial try that wasn't played. There was also 33.Ba4 which wins the exchange but doesn't look like a serious winning try.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5 7.c3 d6 8.a4 Rb8 9.d4 Bb6 10.Na3 0-0 11.axb5 axb5 12.Nxb5 Bg4 13.Bc2 exd4 14.Nbxd4 Nxd4 15.cxd4 Bxf3 16.gxf3 Nh5 17.Kh1 Qf6 18.Be3 c5 19.e5 Qe6 20.exd6 c4 21.b3 cxb3 22.Bxb3 Qxd6 23.Ra6 Rfd8 24.Rg1 Qd7 25.Rg4 Nf6 26.Rh4 Qb5 27.Ra1 g6 28.Rb1 Qd7 29.Qd3 Nd5 30.Rg1 Bc7 31.Bg5 Re8 32.Qc4 Rb5 33.Qc2 Ra8 34.Bc4 Rba5 35.Bd2 Ra4 36.Qd3 Ra1 37.Rxa1 Rxa1+ 38.Kg2 Ne7 39.Bxf7+ Kxf7 40.Qc4+ Kg7 41.d5 Nf5 42.Bc3+ Kf8 43.Bxa1 Nxh4+ 44.Qxh4 Qxd5 45.Qf6+ Qf7 46.Qd4 Ke8 47.Qe4+ Qe7 48.Qd5 Bd8 49.Kf1 Qf7 50.Qe4+ Qe7 51.Be5 Qe6 52.Kg2 Be7 53.Qa8+ Kf7 54.Qh8 h5 55.Qg7+ Ke8 56.Bf4 Qf7 57.Qh8+ Qf8 58.Qd4 Qf5 59.Qc4 Kd7 60.Bd2 Qe6 61.Qa4+ Qc6 62.Qa7+ Qc7 63.Qa2 Qd6 64.Be3 Qe6 65.Qa7+ Ke8 66.Bc5 Bd8 67.h3 Qd5 68.Be3 Be7 69.Qb8+ Kf7 70.Qh8 Qe6 71.Bf4 Qf6 72.Qb8 Qe6 73.Qb7 Kg8 74.Qb5 Bf6 drawn on white's offer 1/2-1/2

Igor_Goldenberg
24-11-2016, 12:58 PM
I wonder if 48.Bf6 (forcing favourable exchange) gives good practical chances

MichaelBaron
24-11-2016, 01:44 PM
I wonder if 48.Bf6 (forcing favourable exchange) gives good practical chances

According to L'Ami's (Dutch GM) - Twitter - it does

ER
24-11-2016, 03:00 PM
Could Mssrs holden_54, Qbert and Rincewind be informed that their on field presence is no longer required? Dressing rooms this way ------------------> thanks!

Kevin Bonham
24-11-2016, 04:56 PM
^^^
Already done - I edit options to show which ones are no longer possible.

In fact today's result dismissed most of the team!

Desmond
24-11-2016, 06:14 PM
Begeezus RR. Karjakin +2 !?
Ahem

Leonid Sandler
24-11-2016, 06:26 PM
Russian speaking community in Australia are following the match very closely.http://http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/russian/ru/content/realnyy-no-upushchennyy-shans-sergeya-karyakina-v-devyatoy-partii-na-shahmatnuyu-koronu?lang

ElevatorEscapee
24-11-2016, 07:21 PM
Russian speaking community in Australia are following the match very closely.http://http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/russian/ru/content/realnyy-no-upushchennyy-shans-sergeya-karyakina-v-devyatoy-partii-na-shahmatnuyu-koronu?lang

Hi Leon, I couldn't get there from your link maybe an extra "http : //" snuck in to your post.

However:

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/russian/ru/content/realnyy-no-upushchennyy-shans-sergeya-karyakina-v-devyatoy-partii-na-shahmatnuyu-koronu?lang should give the Russian language text.

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/russian/en/content/real-lost-chance-sergey-karjakin should give the English text. :)

ER
24-11-2016, 07:43 PM
^^^
Already done - I edit options to show which ones are no longer possible.

In fact today's result dismissed most of the team!

Oh ok thanks! you did it in a very discreet way though, no band parades, no cheer squads, no official sending offs, etc! :P :)

Kevin Bonham
24-11-2016, 07:59 PM
I wonder if 48.Bf6 (forcing favourable exchange) gives good practical chances

If Black plays 49...Kf7 followed by ...Ke6, ...h5 and then probably shuffling the bishop mainly on the d8-h4 diagonal, it seems very difficult for white to make useful progress.

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 05:33 AM
Odds last night were 3/8 (1.38) for Karjakin vs 9/5 (2.80) for Carlsen.

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 10:29 AM
The broadcast has a sidebar showing percentages, for instance 61:39. The commentators have done a woeful job of explaining that this is not a winning chance (a la Clinton vs Trump on fivethirtyeight), it is a scoring expectancy as in ratings or opening databases. People go silly in the chatbox when it gets over 60, but if one side has no realistic chance of winning then the sidebar is actually pointing to a probable draw.

(Whether it's accurate or not is another question.)

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 10:53 AM
...and for it to be showing only 76:24 in a position that is +2.3 without a real fortress chance is just silly.

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 11:13 AM
...and for it to be showing only 76:24 in a position that is +2.3 without a real fortress chance is just silly.

Hmmm. Carlsen misses 62.Rxg6 so maybe that evaluation was generous to him. :lol:

Desmond
25-11-2016, 11:34 AM
All square!

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 11:44 AM
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 0-0 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.0-0 d6 9.Nbd2 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.Nc4 Nf4 12.Ne3 Qf6 13.g3 Nh3+ 14.Kh1 Ne7 15.Bc4 c6 16.Bb3 Ng6 17.Qe2 a5 18.a4 Be6 19.Bxe6 fxe6 20.Nd2 d5 21.Qh5 Ng5 22.h4 Nf3 23.Nxf3 Qxf3+ 24.Qxf3 Rxf3 25.Kg2 Rf7 26.Rfe1 h5 27.Nf1 Kf8 28.Nd2 Ke7 29.Re2 Kd6 30.Nf3 Raf8 31.Ng5 Re7 32.Rae1 Rfe8 33.Nf3 Nh8 34.d4 exd4 35.Nxd4 g6 36.Re3 Nf7 37.e5+ Kd7 38.Rf3 Nh6 39.Rf6 Rg7 40.b4 axb4 41.cxb4 Ng8 42.Rf3 Nh6 43.a5 Nf5 44.Nb3 Kc7 45.Nc5 Kb8 46.Rb1 Ka7 47.Rd3 Rc7 48.Ra3 Nd4 49.Rd1 Nf5 50.Kh3 Nh6 51.f3 Rf7 52.Rd4 Nf5 53.Rd2 Rh7 54.Rb3 Ree7 55.Rdd3 Rh8 56.Rb1 Rhh7 57.b5 cxb5 58.Rxb5 d4 59.Rb6 Rc7 60.Nxe6 Rc3 61.Nf4 Rhc7 62.Nd5 Rxd3 63.Nxc7 Kb8 64.Nb5 Kc8 65.Rxg6 Rxf3 66.Kg2 Rb3 67.Nd6+ Nxd6 68.Rxd6 Re3 69.e6 Kc7 70.Rxd4 Rxe6 71.Rd5 Rh6 72.Kf3 Kb8 73.Kf4 Ka7 74.Kg5 Rh8 75.Kf6 1-0

1. Karjakin missed Nxf2 forcing a draw on both 20 and 21. Carlsen knew it was possible at least on move 20.

2. Karjakin blundered with 56....Rhh7 allowing the win of a pawn by b5 which had been lurking as a possibility for many moves.

3. 62.Rxg6 is an easier win. 62. Nd5 may win but there are good chances for black to reach a drawable rook ending.

4. 68...Re3 loses, 68...Kc7 is much better

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 12:33 PM
Odds last night were 3/8 (1.38) for Karjakin vs 9/5 (2.80) for Carlsen.

Now seeing 1.50 for Carlsen vs 2.45 for Karjakin.

MichaelBaron
25-11-2016, 02:39 PM
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 0-0 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Be7 8.0-0 d6 9.Nbd2 Nh5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.Nc4 Nf4 12.Ne3 Qf6 13.g3 Nh3+ 14.Kh1 Ne7 15.Bc4 c6 16.Bb3 Ng6 17.Qe2 a5 18.a4 Be6 19.Bxe6 fxe6 20.Nd2 d5 21.Qh5 Ng5 22.h4 Nf3 23.Nxf3 Qxf3+ 24.Qxf3 Rxf3 25.Kg2 Rf7 26.Rfe1 h5 27.Nf1 Kf8 28.Nd2 Ke7 29.Re2 Kd6 30.Nf3 Raf8 31.Ng5 Re7 32.Rae1 Rfe8 33.Nf3 Nh8 34.d4 exd4 35.Nxd4 g6 36.Re3 Nf7 37.e5+ Kd7 38.Rf3 Nh6 39.Rf6 Rg7 40.b4 axb4 41.cxb4 Ng8 42.Rf3 Nh6 43.a5 Nf5 44.Nb3 Kc7 45.Nc5 Kb8 46.Rb1 Ka7 47.Rd3 Rc7 48.Ra3 Nd4 49.Rd1 Nf5 50.Kh3 Nh6 51.f3 Rf7 52.Rd4 Nf5 53.Rd2 Rh7 54.Rb3 Ree7 55.Rdd3 Rh8 56.Rb1 Rhh7 57.b5 cxb5 58.Rxb5 d4 59.Rb6 Rc7 60.Nxe6 Rc3 61.Nf4 Rhc7 62.Nd5 Rxd3 63.Nxc7 Kb8 64.Nb5 Kc8 65.Rxg6 Rxf3 66.Kg2 Rb3 67.Nd6+ Nxd6 68.Rxd6 Re3 69.e6 Kc7 70.Rxd4 Rxe6 71.Rd5 Rh6 72.Kf3 Kb8 73.Kf4 Ka7 74.Kg5 Rh8 75.Kf6 1-0

1. Karjakin missed Nxf2 forcing a draw on both 20 and 21. Carlsen knew it was possible at least on move 20.

2. Karjakin blundered with 56....Rhh7 allowing the win of a pawn by b5 which had been lurking as a possibility for many moves.

3. 62.Rxg6 is an easier win. 62. Nd5 may win but there are good chances for black to reach a drawable rook ending.

4. 68...Re3 loses, 68...Kc7 is much better

Magnus is back in action! :clap:

Agent Smith
25-11-2016, 05:41 PM
Great match.

I thought Magnus would get this one once he got the rook+knight+pawns end game,
though i didn't like his position around move 16 at all, facing an attacking knight+q and a vulnerable f file.

ER
25-11-2016, 07:18 PM
A massive exodus this time! Mssrs Agent Smith, Bereaved, Bulldozer, Capablanca-Fan, Craig_Hall, Frank, George Morgan, Kevin Bonham, Leonkempen and StokesyRedcliff, proceed to the dressing room please! You did well, I am sure you will do better in next poll! :P :)

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 07:37 PM
A massive exodus this time! Mssrs Agent Smith, Bereaved, Bulldozer, Capablanca-Fan, Craig_Hall, Frank, George Morgan, Kevin Bonham, Leonkempen and StokesyRedcliff, proceed to the dressing room please!

Actually we were all eliminated after yesterday's game, both from getting the exact score and from closest to the pin. kuan and road runner were eliminated from getting the exact score by today's game, but will still be closest to the pin if Karjakin wins both remaining games.

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 08:38 PM
Wesley So in notes here: http://en.chessbase.com/post/newsblog-wcc-carlsen-karjakin-2016-11-25-en thinks the draw on move 20 was reasonably avoidable by giving up R+2P for 2N. The players looked at this line in the press conference but not that seriously. However he thinks the missed draw on 21 was forced.

ER
25-11-2016, 08:58 PM
Actually we were all eliminated after yesterday's game, both from getting the exact score and from closest to the pin. kuan and road runner were eliminated from getting the exact score by today's game, but will still be closest to the pin if Karjakin wins both remaining games.

Hold on a sec chief. If Karjakin wins one and the other one ends up in a draw James and I win don't we?

Kevin Bonham
25-11-2016, 11:18 PM
Hold on a sec chief. If Karjakin wins one and the other one ends up in a draw James and I win don't we?

Correct. You will also be closest to the pin if Karjakin wins in a playoff. Those who tipped Carlsen 7-5 and Carlsen 6.5-5.5 are also still in contention.

By "we were all" in #133 I meant the ten posters you named including me.

ER
26-11-2016, 12:27 AM
OK thanks, all clear now! :)

Agent Smith
26-11-2016, 04:06 PM
Wesley So annotates Magnus' win. :)
http://en.chessbase.com/post/newsblog-wcc-carlsen-karjakin-2016-11-25-en

Kaitlin
27-11-2016, 04:35 AM
Correct. You will also be closest to the pin if Karjakin wins in a playoff. Those who tipped Carlsen 7-5 and Carlsen 6.5-5.5 are also still in contention.

:( I notice my post entry is being ignored. .. possibly because the poll had already only just closed when I put the post or possibly because.... it might be the winner :)

Jesper Norgaard
27-11-2016, 06:36 AM
:( I notice my post entry is being ignored. .. possibly because the poll had already only just closed when I put the post or possibly because.... it might be the winner :)

What did you vote on, Kaitlin? Just out of curiosity ...

Kevin Bonham
27-11-2016, 07:10 AM
:( I notice my post entry is being ignored. .. possibly because the poll had already only just closed when I put the post or possibly because.... it might be the winner :)

Poll had been closed for about a day and game 1 had already finished when you posted.

Kevin Bonham
27-11-2016, 08:24 AM
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a3 0-0 9.Nc3 Be6 10.Nd5 Nd4 11.Nxd4 exd4 12.Nxf6+ Bxf6 13.Bxe6 fxe6 14.f4 c5 15.Qg4 Qd7 16.f5 Rae8 17.Bd2 c4 18.h3 c3 19.bxc3 d5 20.Bg5 Bxg5 21.Qxg5 dxe4 22.fxe6 Rxf1+ 23.Rxf1 Qxe6 24.cxd4 e3 25.Re1 h6 26.Qh5 e2 27.Qf3 a5 28.c3 Qa2 29.Qc6 Re6 30.Qc8+ Kh7 31.c4 Qd2 32.Qxe6 Qxe1+ 33.Kh2 Qf2 34.Qe4+ 1/2-1/2

MichaelBaron
27-11-2016, 10:43 AM
Karjakin shameless play for draw with white pieces is yet another reason we should support Carlsen :)

Capablanca-Fan
27-11-2016, 10:52 AM
Karjakin shameless play for draw with white pieces is yet another reason we should support Carlsen :)

Maybe Karjakin was hoping Carlsen will overreach again as in game 8?

Kevin Bonham
27-11-2016, 11:07 AM
The official site today reported the tiebreak procedures as follows:

"If the game is drawn, the match will go to a series of tie-breaker games on Wednesday, starting with four rapid games played at a time control of 25 minutes per player per game, with 10 seconds added after each move. If that does not produce a winner, the players will play four blitz games. And if the players are tied after that, they will play an “Armageddon” game, in which White will have five minutes and Black only four, but Black will only have to draw to win the title."

As far as the blitz games go, this is inconsistent with the FIDE regulations, which are:


3.7.2 If the scores are level after the games in Article 3.7.1a, then, after a new drawing of
colors, a match of 2 games shall be played with a time control of 5 minutes plus 3 seconds
increment after each move. In case of a level score, another 2-game match will be played to
determine a winner. If still there is no winner after 5 such matches (total 10 games), one
sudden-death game will be played as described below in Article 3.7.3.

[..]

3.7.3 If the score is still level after five matches as described in Article 3.7.2, the players shall
play a one sudden death game. The player who wins the drawing of lots may choose the
color. The player with the white pieces shall receive 5 minutes, the player with the black
pieces shall receive 4 minutes whereupon, after the 60th move, both players shall receive an
increment of 3 seconds starting from move 61. In case of a draw the player with the black
pieces is declared the winner

I assume simply an error by the author of the article.

Agent Smith
27-11-2016, 11:16 AM
Maybe Karjakin was hoping Carlsen will overreach again as in game 8?
Yes... I didn't like Magnus' 24. ... e3. Very hopeful more than anything else.

Ian Rout
27-11-2016, 12:30 PM
Karjakin shameless play for draw with white pieces is yet another reason we should support Carlsen :)I reckon that's a good strategy. The "threat" of a clock-thumping lottery encourages Carlsen to look for a win in the real games and he's more likely to go for it in a last-round White than a penultimate-round Black, and more likely to make nervous errors if he does. I doubt that it will work, but playing normally just disadvantages the underdog for nothing.

It's all very well to criticise Karjakin but he's playing to the demands of the match conditions. The psychological games might make the chess less dramatic but they're part of the drama of the contest itself.

ER
27-11-2016, 12:56 PM
Would Mr Road Runner kindly gather his personal belongings and follow the rest? the exit sign is down the end of the corridor!
As for the remaining three participants, get your stuff together to avoid next Tuesday's last round delays just in case!

ER
27-11-2016, 02:16 PM
BTW I think it's now time to realise that these two super GMs are fighting for the world title, not for my entertainment!

Kaitlin
27-11-2016, 03:52 PM
What did you vote on, Kaitlin? Just out of curiosity ...

[QUOTE]"My guess is 6-6 tie with Karjakin winning
but you closed the poll*:( " [QUOTE]

Rincewind
27-11-2016, 05:00 PM
"My guess is 6-6 tie with Karjakin winning
but you closed the poll*:( "

It's supposed to be a prediction, not a postdiction. :)

Desmond
27-11-2016, 05:25 PM
Karjakin shameless play for draw with white pieces is yet another reason we should support Carlsen :)

The one who hasn't led in any stage of the match so far?

Kevin Bonham
27-11-2016, 05:31 PM
Karjakin is coming off a loss (for what that's worth) and did make a very serious and almost successful attempt to win game 9 with white.

Capablanca-Fan
28-11-2016, 02:37 AM
The one who hasn't led in any stage of the match so far?

I have to agree with rr here. Karjakin's strategy of patient play has gained him a level score so far. This is better than his rating and most pundits predicted, and better than Anand both times.

ER
28-11-2016, 04:23 PM
Do we have other examples of WCC matches going down to the wire?
That's apart from the well known cases of Emmanuel Lasker vs Carl Schlechter (1910) (*)
and Gary Kasparov vs Anatoly Karpov (1987?)
(*) an interesting article on this match here:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=54100

Kevin Bonham
28-11-2016, 04:37 PM
Do we have other examples of WCC matches going down to the wire?

There are loads of them, most recently Kramnik-Leko 2004 which was tied with Kramnik retaining, Kramnik-Topalov 2006 which went to playoffs, Anand-Topalov 2010 which was tied going into the last game (which Anand won) and Anand-Gelfand 2012 which went to playoffs. The last three Kasparov-Karpov matches all went the distance.

In all by my count of 33 matches with a scheduled finite duration (where a tie after a certain number of games results in overtime, in the champion retaining their title or a playoff), 13 have seen the scheduled final game played. I exclude FIDE "world championships" during the divided title and round robin tournaments from this tally.

Rincewind
28-11-2016, 04:38 PM
Do we have other examples of WCC matches going down to the wire?

Botvinnik was the master of this. In 1951 he played Bronstein in a best of 24 match finishing 12-12 and Botvinnik retained the title as the current holder. Then in 1954 he had the same result against Smyslov.

ER
28-11-2016, 05:16 PM
Thank you both for the information. I better go do some reading about WCC history, there's some fascinating stories there! Cheers!

Desmond
28-11-2016, 07:08 PM
Will we see something other than a symmetrical K-pawn or Q-pawn opening?

ER
28-11-2016, 08:21 PM
Will we see something other than a symmetrical K-pawn or Q-pawn opening?

I sense that something drastic will happen in this game.

I expect the challenger GM Karjakin to try to disturb the equilibrium and only if that fails he will try to secure the half point.
On the other hand I believe that the World Champion GM Carlsen will keep to his "grind the opponent down" strategy.

Let's hope it's going to be an exciting finale!

However, as I posted earlier on this thread


BTW I think it's now time to realise that these two super GMs are fighting for the world title, not for my entertainment!

Ian Rout
28-11-2016, 08:59 PM
Will we see something other than a symmetrical K-pawn or Q-pawn opening?If Karjakin's strategy is to encourage Carlsen to over-reach he could try something like a Caro-Kann, which would unfold more slowly and give Carlsen some motivation. The French might be overdoing it though.

ER
29-11-2016, 03:46 AM
Ok my final prediction.
If Carlsen opens with 1. e4 Karjakin will reply with 1...c5 and a Closed Sicilian
If Carlsen opens with 1. d4 Karjakin will reply with 1... Nf6 hoping for 2. c4 and a Gruenfeld or King's Indian set -up
If Carlsen plays 2. Nf3 prepare for a Semi - Slav and the game will end up in a draw sometime around noon!

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 05:12 AM
Ok my final prediction.
If Carlsen opens with 1. e4 Karjakin will reply with 1...c5 and a Closed Sicilian

Nope, it's another Berlin.

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 05:24 AM
15.Na3 was a new move, for what it's worth.

ER
29-11-2016, 05:38 AM
On my way to the dressing room! thanks ladies and gentlemen thanks ball boys and girls it was nice to be here for as long as it lasted! Play offs on Wednesday morning! :)

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 05:57 AM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Be7 7.Bf1 Nxe5 8.Rxe5 0-0 9.d4 Bf6 10.Re1 Re8 11.Bf4 Rxe1 12.Qxe1 Ne8 13.c3 d5 14.Bd3 g6 15.Na3 c6 16.Nc2 Ng7 17.Qd2 Bf5 18.Bxf5 Nxf5 19.Ne3 Nxe3 20.Qxe3 Qe7 21.Qxe7 Bxe7 22.Re1 Bf8 23.Kf1 f6 24.g4 Kf7 25.h3 Re8 26.Rxe8 Kxe8 27.Ke2 Kd7 28.Kd3 Ke6 29.a4 a6 30.f3 Be7 1/2-1/2

The most exciting thing that happened all day was Carlsen drew black for the first playoff game.

Chicken Factor

http://www.chessninja.com/migonchess/migonchess116.htm

1. Base piece value 10 each - 30 moves = -20 for both
2. Colours Carlsen +10 Karjakin -10
3. Not applicable as no leader
4. Rating difference Carlsen +16 Karjakin -16
5. Not applicable, last game drawn

6. Symmetrical pawn structure -5 to both
7. Not applicable
8. Not applicable
9. Not applicable
10. Not applicable

Overall Chicken Factor Carlsen +11 (Timid Turkey) Karjakin -41 (Heroic Hawk)

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 05:58 AM
On my way to the dressing room! thanks ladies and gentlemen thanks ball boys and girls it was nice to be here for as long as it lasted! Play offs on Wednesday morning! :)

Thursday our time actually. They get another day off after that pitiable effort. Bludgers!

Agent Smith
29-11-2016, 06:20 AM
World champs decided by rapids is wrong i reckon.
They should just keep playing 2 game pairs, till there is a winner....
But there is no money to organise it of course :( They could be there for weeks.

Desmond
29-11-2016, 06:21 AM
Lame

Jesper Norgaard
29-11-2016, 07:12 AM
I bet it will be decided before the Armageddon game, but I would not bet on either player winning in the Rapid games alone (2½ points is enough). In the Blitz games all bets are off, it will be decided by better nerves. I'm beginning to think Kaitlin's half-bet on Karjakin is looking plausible. Magnus has scored so many own goals in the match that I think he is capable of a few more ...

If the unthinkable would happen crowning Karjakin, Magnus will win the crown back as soon as possible.

Agent Smith
29-11-2016, 10:05 AM
I think Magnus is favourite, but Karjakin would be a worthy title holder if he wins. Wcch is about skill and calm. What made Anand so hard to beat.

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 10:06 AM
World champs decided by rapids is wrong i reckon.
They should just keep playing 2 game pairs, till there is a winner....
But there is no money to organise it of course :( They could be there for weeks.

I'd just prefer longer matches. 12-game matches encourage conservatism and heading for the playoff, especially between already solid players, because it is so hard to come back if you lose.

Rincewind
29-11-2016, 10:24 AM
Chicken Factor

http://www.chessninja.com/migonchess/migonchess116.htm

1. Base piece value 10 each - 30 moves = -20 for both
2. Colours Carlsen +10 Karjakin -10
3. Not applicable as no leader
4. Rating difference Carlsen +16 Karjakin -16
5. Not applicable, last game drawn

6. Symmetrical pawn structure -5 to both
7. Not applicable
8. Not applicable
9. Not applicable
10. Not applicable

Overall Chicken Factor Carlsen +11 (Timid Turkey) Karjakin -41 (Heroic Hawk)

You might want to check your arithmetic as you seemed to have added 10 to both scores. That doesn't change Carlsen's grade but promotes Karjakin to Fearless Falcon. Of course this is mainly due to the bonus for being 81 points lower rated and having the Black pieces. If anything this just discredits Greengard's system. (Yes I know it is not meant to be taken seriously).

Garvinator
29-11-2016, 10:35 AM
I'd just prefer longer matches. 12-game matches encourage conservatism and heading for the playoff, especially between already solid players, because it is so hard to come back if you lose.
With the 12 game system, I think a better system is 3 games, rest day, 3 games, rest day, 3 games, rest day. So that is the 12 games.

And then if still tied, Then the match continues one classical game at a time until one player wins one game. Yes it could take a few games. But all it could take is one game. And my format is a couple of days shorter, has no colour swapping between games six and seven as well.

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 11:13 AM
If the unthinkable would happen crowning Karjakin, Magnus will win the crown back as soon as possible.

I wouldn't rule out a massive dummy-spit by Carlsen if he loses. He reacted very badly to losing one game in this match, and even reacted badly to one draw. He boycotted the 2012 cycle so I'm not sure how strong his commitment to the title would be.

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 12:00 PM
And then if still tied, Then the match continues one classical game at a time until one player wins one game. Yes it could take a few games. But all it could take is one game.

It could take quite a few games. The Kasparov-Karpov match in 1984 at one stage had 17 draws in a row.

I don't think matches of undefined duration are fair. One player might be in a much better position than the other to keep playing indefinitely - for reasons including health, personal reasons, other commitments and so on.

Capablanca-Fan
29-11-2016, 12:21 PM
I'd just prefer longer matches. 12-game matches encourage conservatism and heading for the playoff, especially between already solid players, because it is so hard to come back if you lose.
Definitely. We should go back to 24-game matches which worked reasonably well from 1951–1972. One of teh most dramatic was Botvinnik–Smyslov 1954, where Botvinnik started with 3.5/5, then Smyslov won four games to go one ahead, then Botvinnik scored 4-1 to go two ahead, then Smyslov won two to tie. Just couldn't happen with only a short match.


I wouldn't rule out a massive dummy-spit by Carlsen if he loses. He reacted very badly to losing one game in this match, and even reacted badly to one draw.
How do you mean? Not attending that press conference? But as you said, why force the loser to attend and answer banal questions? But if he loses the playoff, that would be fair and square.


He boycotted the 2012 cycle so I'm not sure how strong his commitment to the title would be.
Well, maybe not, but he probably likes the hero worship in his native country (which is certainly good for chess in that country), which wouldn't be as strong if he lost the title, especially to someone who also beat him as world's youngest grandmaster.

Kevin Bonham
29-11-2016, 12:25 PM
How do you mean? Not attending that press conference?

He also brushed right past the interviewer in the post-game interview not even talking to the interviewer at all. That wasn't a good look.

ER
29-11-2016, 03:09 PM
He also brushed right past the interviewer in the post-game interview not even talking to the interviewer at all. That wasn't a good look.

Hi Kevin, I watched that incident in its entirety! Magnus stayed there waiting for more than three minutes while the interviewer was talking to Sergei.
She didn't even acknowledge his presence let alone asking him an interim question. He was completely ignored! Not that I justify his action but I sort of understand his frustration!

ER
29-11-2016, 03:17 PM
If the unthinkable would happen crowning Karjakin, Magnus will win the crown back as soon as possible.

Hold your horses Jesper!!! what do you mean by unthinkable? we have Sergei supporters here as well you know!!! :P :)

BTW here's my favourite Copenhagen spot for a drink when we meet in your lovely capital.

3327

I did all my fruit and vegetable shopping there as well a buying bread from my favourite bakery in Copenhagen! :)

Bulldozer
30-11-2016, 02:33 AM
It's quite impolite and disappointing that the Agon's commentators except Shipov call the players "Magnus" and "Karjakin" most of the time.

Desmond
30-11-2016, 06:33 AM
Why did they have to bookend the 12th game with rest days on both sides?

Vlad
30-11-2016, 08:34 AM
If the unthinkable would happen crowning Karjakin, Magnus will win the crown back as soon as possible.

After comments like this, I actually want Sergey to steal the crown and hide it somewhere very far... :owned:

Kevin Bonham
30-11-2016, 10:11 AM
Why did they have to bookend the 12th game with rest days on both sides?

I think this is based on the strange idea that there might actually be fighting chess in a game that determines the outcome so the players might want to be completely prepared and well rested for it. Fair enough if one player is actually in the lead so somebody needs to win, but after yesterday's joke of a game it all seems silly.

ER
30-11-2016, 10:23 AM
After comments like this, I actually want Sergey to steal the crown and hide it somewhere very far... :owned:

And to paraphrase a popular ditty of the early 80s (America's Cup time)...

Oh dear Mr Magnus Carlsen
What happened to your Cup?
We took it to Siberia
You 'll never get it back! :hand::owned:

Frank
30-11-2016, 02:04 PM
Hold your horses Jesper!!! what do you mean by unthinkable? we have Sergei supporters here as well you know!!! :P :)

BTW here's my favourite Copenhagen spot for a drink when we meet in your lovely capital.

3327

I did all my fruit and vegetable shopping there as well a buying bread from my favourite bakery in Copenhagen! :)

What a lovely photo! Need a drink to revive my fading memories.

ER
30-11-2016, 02:38 PM
thanks Frank! after you enjoy your drink, think about visiting beautiful Copenhagen again instead of just trying to remember it! :)

ER
01-12-2016, 02:01 AM
Quite a number of people in this as well as in many other chess forums have expressed the opinion that 12 games aren't good enough to decide the world chess champion.

Only a few hours before the tie breakers begin, we asked some very well known chess personalities the question:

There are various public complaints about the relatively short number (12) of games required to decide the new World Chees Champion! What's your opinion?

GM Nigel Short I think the World Championship should be longer

GM David Smerdon I don't think players object to the length for fatigue reasons. It's probably more that professionals these days have many more events on their calendars than there used to be 'back in the day'.
But all players would prioritise the world championships on their schedules, of course :) I think that the reasons for the shorter match are probably more commercial than anything else.

IM Trevor Tao The WCC should be 48 games. If it's still tied we'll figure out what to do then :) (apologies to Kasparov and Karpov)

FM Tim Reilly I think 12 games is too short, it makes players too cautious because no one wants to be chasing a loss. But as David say commercial considerations rule, and this is probably especially the case when the match is staged in a city like NY.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 05:53 AM
Rapid 1. A reasonably interesting game with no mistakes.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a3 0-0 9.Nc3 Nb8 10.Ne2 c5 11.Ng3 Nc6 12.c3 Rb8 13.h3 a5 14.a4 b4 15.Re1 Be6 16.Bc4 h6 17.Be3 Qc8 18.Qe2 Rd8 19.Bxe6 fxe6 20.d4 bxc3 21.bxc3 cxd4 22.cxd4 exd4 23.Nxd4 Nxd4 24.Bxd4 Rb4 25.Rec1 Qd7 26.Bc3 Rxa4 27.Bxa5 Rxa1 28.Rxa1 Ra8 29.Bc3 Rxa1+ 30.Bxa1 Qc6 31.Kh2 Kf7 32.Bb2 Qc5 33.f4 Bd8 34.e5 dxe5 35.Bxe5 Bb6 36.Qd1 Qd5 37.Qxd5 Nxd5 1/2-1/2

Desmond
01-12-2016, 06:46 AM
Quite a number of people in this as well as in many other chess forums have expressed the opinion that 12 games aren't good enough to decide the world chess champion.

Only a few hours before the tie breakers begin, we asked some very well known chess personalities the question:

There are various public complaints about the relatively short number (12) of games required to decide the new World Chees Champion! What's your opinion?

GM Nigel Short I think the World Championship should be longer

GM David Smerdon I don't think players object to the length for fatigue reasons. It's probably more that professionals these days have many more events on their calendars than there used to be 'back in the day'.
But all players would prioritise the world championships on their schedules, of course :) I think that the reasons for the shorter match are probably more commercial than anything else.

IM Trevor Tao The WCC should be 48 games. If it's still tied we'll figure out what to do then :) (apologies to Kasparov and Karpov)

FM Tim Reilly I think 12 games is too short, it makes players too cautious because no one wants to be chasing a loss. But as David say commercial considerations rule, and this is probably especially the case when the match is staged in a city like NY.

Would making the match longer increase the prize fund? I think the answer is no.

If I can make half a mil in 3 weeks why would I agree to the same money for a longer period?

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 06:49 AM
The official coverage would be improved if you had the opportunity to mute specific commentators.

Desmond
01-12-2016, 06:53 AM
2 Bishops for the Rook and pawn, looking good for Carlsen!

Desmond
01-12-2016, 07:03 AM
The official coverage would be improved if you had the opportunity to mute specific commentators.

"one of the golden rules in endgames is do not rush"
few mins later
"he hasn't made progress in last 5 moves"

:eh:

Capablanca-Fan
01-12-2016, 07:10 AM
2 Bishops for the Rook and pawn, looking good for Carlsen!

More of a shoutbox comment, don't you think? I agree with you though, and even better now that Black hasn't the extra P. Might not be a win with Ps on one side though; B+N v R is not with 3 Ps each (cf. Jose Raul Capablanca vs Emanuel Lasker, St Petersburg, 1914 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1258182)). Maybe White should have tried for a middlegame kill instead.

Desmond
01-12-2016, 07:28 AM
More of a shoutbox comment, don't you think? I agree with you though, and even better now that Black hasn't the extra P. Might not be a win with Ps on one side though; B+N v R is not with 3 Ps each (cf. Jose Raul Capablanca vs Emanuel Lasker, St Petersburg, 1914 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1258182)). Maybe White should have tried for a middlegame kill instead.
Sorry mum.

In any case Carlsen yet again fails to convert.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 07:29 AM
Another one gets away as Carlsen misses 62.Kf7 winning and Karjakin scrambles again:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.a4 a6 7.c3 d6 8.Re1 Ba7 9.h3 Ne7 10.d4 Ng6 11.Nbd2 c6 12.Bf1 a5 13.dxe5 dxe5 14.Qc2 Be6 15.Nc4 Qc7 16.b4 axb4 17.cxb4 b5 18.Ne3 bxa4 19.Rxa4 Bxe3 20.Bxe3 Rxa4 21.Qxa4 Nxe4 22.Rc1 Bd5 23.b5 cxb5 24.Qxe4 Qxc1 25.Qxd5 Qc7 26.Qxb5 Rb8 27.Qd5 Rd8 28.Qb3 Rb8 29.Qa2 h6 30.Qd5 Qe7 31.Qe4 Qf6 32.g3 Rc8 33.Bd3 Qc6 34.Qf5 Re8 35.Be4 Qe6 36.Qh5 Ne7 37.Qxe5 Qxe5 38.Nxe5 Ng6 39.Bxg6 Rxe5 40.Bd3 f6 41.Kg2 Kh8 42.Kf3 Rd5 43.Bg6 Ra5 44.Ke4 Rb5 45.h4 Re5+ 46.Kd4 Ra5 47.Kc4 Re5 48.Bd4 Ra5 49.Bc5 Kg8 50.Kd5 Rb5 51.Kd6 Ra5 52.Be3 Re5 53.Bf4 Ra5 54.Bd3 Ra7 55.Ke6 Rb7 56.Kf5 Rd7 57.Bc2 Rb7 58.Kg6 Rb2 59.Bf5 Rxf2 60.Be6+ Kh8 61.Bd6 Re2 62.Bg4 Re8 63.Bf5 Kg8 64.Bc2 Re3 65.Bb1 Kh8 66.Kf7 Rb3 67.Be4 Re3 68.Bf5 Rc3 69.g4 Rc6 70.Bf8 Rc7+ 71.Kg6 Kg8 72.Bb4 Rb7 73.Bd6 Kh8 74.Bf8 Kg8 75.Ba3 Kh8 76.Be6 Rb6 77.Kf7 Rb7+ 78.Be7 h5 79.gxh5 f5 80.Bxf5 Rxe7+ 81.Kxe7 Kg8 82.Bd3 Kh8 83.Kf8 g5 84.hxg6 1/2-1/2

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 07:39 AM
I'd like to have seen them given more time off between games 2 and 3.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 07:41 AM
More of a shoutbox comment, don't you think?

I'm happy to have such comments as posts.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 08:34 AM
Game 3 - a lot of small inaccuracies and then Karjakin very short of time could not find 38.Rb1

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a3 0-0 9.Nc3 Na5 10.Ba2 Be6 11.b4 Nc6 12.Nd5 Nd4 13.Ng5 Bxd5 14.exd5 Nd7 15.Ne4 f5 16.Nd2 f4 17.c3 Nf5 18.Ne4 Qe8 19.Bb3 Qg6 20.f3 Bh4 21.a4 Nf6 22.Qe2 a5 23.axb5 axb4 24.Bd2 bxc3 25.Bxc3 Ne3 26.Rfc1 Rxa1 27.Rxa1 Qe8 28.Bc4 Kh8 29.Nxf6 Bxf6 30.Ra3 e4 31.dxe4 Bxc3 32.Rxc3 Qe5 33.Rc1 Ra8 34.h3 h6 35.Kh2 Qd4 36.Qe1 Qb2 37.Bf1 Ra2 38.Rxc7?? Ra1 0-1

ER
01-12-2016, 09:16 AM
I am watching the tie breakers as presented by GM Tal Baron!

(could not resist it, could I?)

he's mad btw! :P :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82dETTTM4zk

lol had enough of Talbaronisms, back to Judit! :)

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 09:45 AM
Hahaha nice finish

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 Be7 7. c4 a5 8. Be3 a4 9. Nc1 O-O 10. Nc3 Qa5 11. Qd2 Na6 12. Be2 Nc5 13. O-O Bd7 14. Rb1 Rfc8 15. b4 axb3 16. axb3 Qd8 17. Nd3 Ne6 18. Nb4 Bc6 19. Rfd1 h5 20. Bf1 h4 21. Qf2 Nd7 22. g3 Ra3 23. Bh3 Rca8 24. Nc2 R3a6 25. Nb4 Ra5 26. Nc2 b6 27. Rd2 Qc7 28. Rbd1 Bf8 29. gxh4 Nf4 30. Bxf4 exf4 31. Bxd7 Qxd7 32. Nb4 Ra3 33. Nxc6 Qxc6 34. Nb5 Rxb3 35. Nd4 Qxc4 36. Nxb3 Qxb3 37. Qe2 Be7 38. Kg2 Qe6 39. h5 Ra3 40. Rd3 Ra2 41. R3d2 Ra3 42. Rd3 Ra7 43. Rd5 Rc7 44. Qd2 Qf6 45. Rf5 Qh4 46. Rc1 Ra7 47. Qxf4 Ra2+ 48. Kh1 Qf2 49. Rc8+ Kh7 50. Qh6+ 1-0

ER
01-12-2016, 09:46 AM
Congratulations, to WCC Magnus Carlsen!!! :clap::clap:
Judit saw the mating combination straight away! :)

idledim
01-12-2016, 09:46 AM
Wow! What a way to end it all.

Frank
01-12-2016, 09:46 AM
Happy Birthday Magnus!

MichaelBaron
01-12-2016, 09:56 AM
To give Sergei credit, he is probably not one of the greatest chess player of all times but an unbelievable fighter. In game 4 he was trying to keep the pressure till the end. Game 2 was yet another miraculous escape (-.3.5 for Karjakin at some point) so I was starting to wonder when his luck is going to run out.

Also, the timebreak confirmed why rapid is better than Classical ...finally we saw Rh6+! rather than boring exchanges

Desmond
01-12-2016, 10:03 AM
Wow! What a way to end it all.

Indeed Queen sac on empty square!

Agent Smith
01-12-2016, 10:15 AM
Yeah, I take it back. Great way to finish. Big knockout in the last rounds. :-)

Ian Rout
01-12-2016, 10:19 AM
Probably mate in two is not that hard to see (for a World Champion), the more spectacular part is committing to it with the previous move as any other follow-up loses.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 11:16 AM
Carlsen joins Steinitz, Lasker, Alekhine, Botvinnik, Karpov, Kasparov and Anand as 3-time (or more) World Champions.

Capablanca-Fan
01-12-2016, 12:34 PM
Carlsen joins Steinitz, Lasker, Alekhine, Botvinnik, Karpov, Kasparov and Anand as 3-time (or more) World Champions.

That's an unusual way to put it. I would call Botvinnik a 3-time lineal world chess champ, because he regained it twice, just as Muhammad Ali is regarded as the only 3-time lineal heavyweight boxing champion because he likewise had to recapture his title twice. Alekhine would be 2-time, but Steinitz, Lasker, Karpov, Kasparov were only 1-time champs with many successful defences. Similarly, Joe Louis was a 1-time heavyweight champion for 140 months and 25 successful title defences, but I've never heard him referred to as a 26-time champ.

Patrick Byrom
01-12-2016, 12:50 PM
Carlsen joins Steinitz, Lasker, Alekhine, Botvinnik, Karpov, Kasparov and Anand as 3-time (or more) World Champions.Hmm ... One of these names is not like the others.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 12:55 PM
That's an unusual way to put it. I would call Botvinnik a 3-time lineal world chess champ, because he regained it twice, just as Muhammad Ali is regarded as the only 3-time lineal heavyweight boxing champion because he likewise had to recapture his title twice. Alekhine would be 2-time, but Steinitz, Lasker, Karpov, Kasparov were only 1-time champs with many successful defences. Similarly, Joe Louis was a 1-time heavyweight champion for 140 months and 25 successful title defences, but I've never heard him referred to as a 26-time champ.

I think boxing is a bit different. Chess these days usually has a defined cycle at the head of which is a match for the World Championship. It makes sense to say someone has won the world title a certain number of times. Boxing bouts are typically talked about as being for the such-and-such world title, but not as "world championships". The winner of a championship is a champion. Also boxers defend their titles much more frequently.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 12:58 PM
Hmm ... One of these names is not like the others.

A few of them are not like the others in various ways. Alekhine avoided a Capablanca rematch, Botvinnik twice lost the title and had to win it back, and Karpov's three titles included one won by default.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 01:08 PM
Probably mate in two is not that hard to see (for a World Champion), the more spectacular part is committing to it with the previous move as any other follow-up loses.

Yes it should be Rc8 that is getting the !!s as white has to see both the queen sac and the forced mate against 49...Bf8.

It's very neat that the queen can be taken in two different ways and that any move other than giving up the unprotected queen to force mate loses.

Capablanca-Fan
01-12-2016, 01:10 PM
I think boxing is a bit different. Chess these days usually has a defined cycle at the head of which is a match for the World Championship. It makes sense to say someone has won the world title a certain number of times. Boxing bouts are typically talked about as being for the such-and-such world title, but not as "world championships". The winner of a championship is a champion. Also boxers defend their titles much more frequently.

I don't see why it's different in principle. Lasker was World Champ until he lost to Capablanca (or perhaps until he surrendered his title). He didn't cease to be champ at any stage before beating Tarrasch or Janovsky. Was not Carlsen the World Champ and Karjakin the challenger?

ER
01-12-2016, 03:37 PM
Carlsen joins Steinitz, Lasker, Alekhine, Botvinnik, Karpov, Kasparov and Anand as 3-time (or more) World Champions.

Do we have a similar frequency of World Championship contenders? (well I am studying the World Championship history at the moment and I can see Botvinnik's Karpov's and Anand's names popping up)!

Another interesting case would have been a list of players who participated in multiple WC Championship encounters both as reigning champions and as multiple challengers. (Karpov and Anand come to mind)!

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 03:57 PM
Another interesting case would have been a list of players who participated in multiple WC Championship encounters both as reigning champions and as multiple challengers. (Karpov and Anand come to mind)!

World Champions who were also challengers in a match more than once by my count were Lasker (because he had resigned his title to Capablanca before their match), Alekhine, Botvinnik, Smyslov, Spassky, Karpov, Kasparov (two matches one of which aborted), Anand and Kramnik.

ER
01-12-2016, 04:25 PM
World Champions who were also challengers in a match more than once by my count were Lasker (because he had resigned his title to Capablanca before their match), Alekhine, Botvinnik, Smyslov, Karpov, Kasparov (two matches one of which aborted), Anand and Kramnik.

Quite a number, thanks!

Ian Rout
01-12-2016, 04:38 PM
World Champions who were also challengers in a match more than once by my count were Lasker (because he had resigned his title to Capablanca before their match), Alekhine, Botvinnik, Smyslov, Karpov, Kasparov (two matches one of which aborted), Anand and Kramnik.+ Spassky.

Kevin Bonham
01-12-2016, 09:53 PM
Further to the debate about multi-time World Champions, GM Johansen is commonly referred to as six-time Australian Champion because he has won six Australian Championships. Yet he has only held the title for four discrete time spans. This may be considered different in that it is not a lineal title passing from a player to one who defeats them, but the same standard still applies in terms of the champion retaining their title until dethroned, even during a contest for the title.

Capablanca-Fan
01-12-2016, 11:57 PM
Further to the debate about multi-time World Champions, GM Johansen is commonly referred to as six-time Australian Champion because he has won six Australian Championships. Yet he has only held the title for four discrete time spans. This may be considered different in that it is not a lineal title passing from a player to one who defeats them, but the same standard still applies in terms of the champion retaining their title until dethroned, even during a contest for the title.

Yes, I agree with GM Johansen being referred to as six-time Australian Champion; this is reasonable for championships decided by a regular tournament where the reigning champ has no privilege.

I see that you also think that Capa's reign started from Lasker's surrender of the title, and indeed Lasker in writing considered himself the challenger in the 1921 match.

Capablanca-Fan
02-12-2016, 12:00 AM
+ Spassky.

+ Do we also count tournaments or matches for a vacant title? If so, then Steinitz when he and Zukertort were both fighting for the vacant title in 1886, or as some say, Steinitz and Anderssen in 1866.

ER
02-12-2016, 05:11 AM
I was inquiring about matches b/n a champion and a challenger. That, of course, excludes the 1948 Hague - Moscow tournament!
Apart from the fact that it was a tournament and not a match, the whole affair symbolizes one of the darkest periods in chess history.

Adamski
02-12-2016, 06:40 AM
So no-one got the winning option in the poll!

Capablanca-Fan
02-12-2016, 08:26 AM
I was inquiring about matches b/n a champion and a challenger. That, of course, excludes the 1948 Hague - Moscow tournament!
Apart from the fact that it was a tournament and not a match, the whole affair symbolizes one of the darkest periods in chess history.

How do you mean? If you mean Keres, I wrote briefly about that a few months ago (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?16390-Form-in-chess-results-is-it-a-real-thing-or-just-random&p=408996&viewfull=1#post408996).

pax
02-12-2016, 04:23 PM
It's a great shame for the classical wc to be decided in rapids. 12 games is around the same length as the average serious tournament. Surely 16 or 18 games is possible for a proper championship?

I'm glad Carlsen won, as it would be a shame to return to the days when the Champion is very clearly not the best player.

ER
02-12-2016, 05:37 PM
How do you mean? If you mean Keres, I wrote briefly about that a few months ago (http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?16390-Form-in-chess-results-is-it-a-real-thing-or-just-random&p=408996&viewfull=1#post408996).

I 'd read it and I agree with you opinion re implausibility of Keres "throwing" games versus Botvinnik.

In fact there's a theory that the "patriarch" threw the last game of his match vs the Estonian
in order to facilitate his sharing 3rd place prize with Reshevsky! :)

I also agree with GM Yuri Averbakh, (the Taylor Kingsford interview Parts I and II) who stated that:

'Stalin would not have given orders that Keres should lose to Botvinnik;
Smyslov would probably have been the candidate most preferred by officials'

As far as Keres "involvement" is concerned I understand (again quoting from Averbakh) that:

'Keres was under severe psychological stress as a result of the multiple invasions of his home country,
Estonia, and of his subsequent treatment by Soviet officials up to late 1946''

You simply cannot play chess under such conditions. (Unless you are a person of steel like Viktor Korchnoi of course)

Some, however, ask that if that was actually the case why was Keres chosen
to represent USSR in a world championship tournament in the first place?

In conclusion, by "darkest period" I mean the situation existing in the USSR at those initial stages of Cold War
during which the line between being a hero or a traitor was very fine. The situation in the West
was also one of anti-communist rage, suspicion and purges of real or imaginary collaborators and spies.
Not an ideal time to promote sport for sport's sake.

Here's some interesting footage from the 1948 tournament.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elQoDWI6PZ8

At one stage Keres walks past Reshevsky who seems to be reading a newspaper! :)
(or was it a tabloid size score sheet?)
In another scene toward the end Sammy is shown smoking while playing a game! :eek:

Kevin Bonham
02-12-2016, 06:08 PM
So no-one got the winning option in the poll!

Jesper was closest to the pin. A bit surprising maybe that there was only one vote for Carlsen +1.

Patrick Byrom
03-12-2016, 01:48 AM
It's a great shame for the classical wc to be decided in rapids. 12 games is around the same length as the average serious tournament. Surely 16 or 18 games is possible for a proper championship? I'm glad Carlsen won, as it would be a shame to return to the days when the Champion is very clearly not the best player.I agree with you and Capablanca-Fan that it should be longer. Eighteen games sounds like a good length to me (halfway between 12 and 24).

ER
03-12-2016, 05:44 AM
Unfortunately, no much prize money to support such lengthy world championship matches!

Just think that the 1990 purse for the Kasparov vs Karpov encounter was three times the amount of the recent Carlsen vs Karjakin encounter.

Actually, the 2016 equivalent of US$3m in 1990 would be roughly US$5,62m + (calculated on a basis of 2.45 annual inflation rate!)

Having said that the prize money for the 1992 Fischer vs Spassky return match (US$5m) would have the buying power as US $8,57m+ in 2016

Annual inflation over this period was calculated roughly on a 2.27% basis.

In other words maybe for the international chess community WCC events carry lots of value.

As for the real world of sponsorship outside of the 64 squares well ... :doh::hmm:

AlexDavies
04-12-2016, 02:22 PM
Hmm ... One of these names is not like the others.

It would say it's Carlsen, who is unique in that he has never lost the title.

Anand sticks out a bit. However, he's not unique for being "first among equals" (since that was Botvinnik) or for being born in Asia (since Karpov was as well).

Steinitz is another candidate, because he was around before all the others.

pax
05-12-2016, 01:37 AM
Unfortunately, no much prize money to support such lengthy world championship matches!

Who says that prizemoney needs to be proportional to length? I would have thought that the players would support a geniune contest.

ER
05-12-2016, 04:12 AM
Who says that prizemoney needs to be proportional to length? I would have thought that the players would support a geniune contest.

How sweet and romantic!!!

however, just come down to the 21st century real world for a sec and try to stage a lengthy match in such an expensive joint as NYC!
You will have sponsors queueing up to promote and finance it the nearest exit door.

Regardless of good intentions when reality hits bank accounts the situation changes drastically!

Capablanca-Fan
05-12-2016, 02:47 PM
I agree with you and Capablanca-Fan that it should be longer. Eighteen games sounds like a good length to me (halfway between 12 and 24).

I would support 18.

Agent Smith
11-12-2016, 10:23 AM
https://chess24.com/en/read/news/karjakin-and-kasparov-lock-swords-after-match
(russian) http://www.sport-express.ru/chess/reviews/sergey-karyakin-karlsen-shahmatnyy-ronaldu-1072655/

Karjakin -

[In your opinion, who’s stronger: Kasparov in his best years or Carlsen?]

Magnus, I think. It’s not just that I lost to him. It’s simply that the Norwegian is a more universal chess player. Kasparov had very good openings and tactically he was at a very high level, but in positional play and the endgame it seems to me that he was far inferior to the current Carlsen. I consider the Norwegian a more universal chess player.
But it could just be some return fire to Kasparov i guess.

Kevin Bonham
15-12-2016, 09:18 PM
I've heard (and seen a photo) that the World Champ is in Australia at present, or was last night. Keeping a low profile but you all know that we have spies everywhere. :lol:

lost
15-12-2016, 11:43 PM
Hi Kevin,

Can you publish the picture please?

lost

Kevin Bonham
16-12-2016, 08:54 AM
Hi Kevin,

Can you publish the picture please?

lost

At this stage I don't have, and won't be seeking, permission to do so.

MichaelBaron
16-12-2016, 02:05 PM
At this stage I don't have, and won't be seeking, permission to do so.

Agreed. He has every right to privacy!

ER
16-12-2016, 02:29 PM
wouldn't be nice to see Magnus dropping in for the Allegro on Sat? ;) :)

Capablanca-Fan
17-12-2016, 12:54 AM
wouldn't be nice to see Magnus dropping in for the Allegro on Sat? ;) :)

And he has to play with 1 minute on his clock!

ER
17-12-2016, 02:12 AM
And he has to play with 1 minute on his clock!

That's the time control he uses when he plays friendly blitz games with juniors and relatively lower rated players! :)
Earlier in his career he used to take 30 seconds for his opponent's 9 minutes 30 seconds as in the following video clip.
Magnus has time to watch the game next to him and to console the losing player! :)


https://youtu.be/aycFDkIAhnQ