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James Peirce
05-08-2013, 02:04 PM
Since no one appears to have created a thread for this allready.
I henceforth announce the Dutch Defense thread open.:lol: :lol: :owned:
It seems that most people are inclined to dismiss it as 'inferior' without giving any evidence.

James Peirce
05-08-2013, 02:34 PM
This is my variant of the Dutch Defense that combines the Leningrad with the stonewall.
It can be found here http://chessmicrobase.com/g/tms8ff2z

Garrett
05-08-2013, 02:34 PM
It seems that most people are inclined to dismiss it as 'inferior' without giving any evidence.

I'm certainly not dismissing it but the evidence is there if you want to look.

CB online gives 59% for White after d4 f5 g3 whereas only 53% after d4 Nf6 c4.

cheers
Garrett.

James Peirce
05-08-2013, 02:39 PM
Considering the fact that the average game has a white wins probability of around 55 % it is hardly a huge difference.
Also as has been previously stated on other threads, win percentages of positions and openings are only useful if we understand why it is a win or a loss. Saying it has a win percentage against of 59% hardly proves it is inferior.

Max Illingworth
05-08-2013, 02:53 PM
In the variation you give, I don't see a good way for Black to play after 8.d5 (8...d6 9.Nd4 and an incursion to e6 will pose real problems).

As for the more mainstream Dutch variations, games like Radjabov-Ivanchuk, Wang Yue-Agdestein and Ftacnik-Smerdon illustrate why the Dutch isn't very popular at the highest level. That doesn't mean it can't be played successfully below super-GM level as e.g. Gleizerov has shown.

James Peirce
05-08-2013, 02:56 PM
[QUOTE=Max Illingworth]In the variation you give, I don't see a good way for Black to play after 8.d5 (8...d6 9.Nd4 and an incursion to e6 will pose real problems).QUOTE]
I will get back to you with some of my work on that line in particular

Kevin Bonham
05-08-2013, 03:06 PM
Best analysis of the Dutch ever published:

GM David Smerdon: An Open Letter To The Stonewall (http://www.chessvibes.com/davidsmerdon/an-open-letter-to-the-stonewall)

At club level it's probably fine. I tend to avoid letting people transpose into it and those who've seen either of my losses against Reg Harvey's white version would probably have some idea why. :lol:

James Watson
06-08-2013, 12:51 PM
I've always been suspicious of the Dutch, it just seems that its fundamental basis is unsound

Still playable at a non gm level of course, but still theoretically unsound

Rincewind
06-08-2013, 02:17 PM
Austin Powers father (played by Michael Caine) summarised it perfectly.

QJ882QYzr-M

James Peirce
09-08-2013, 12:57 PM
after 8.d5 exchanging of pawns leaves black with an isolated d-pawn but opens up the position for the black bishops.

Denis_Jessop
09-08-2013, 09:27 PM
I've always been suspicious of the Dutch, it just seems that its fundamental basis is unsound

Still playable at a non gm level of course, but still theoretically unsound

That seems a rather extreme view given that it was successfully used by Botvinnik including a win against Bronstein in their 1951 WC match. There are very few, if any, openings that have been demonstrably totally refuted though many are out of fashion.

DJ

James Watson
10-08-2013, 08:48 AM
That seems a rather extreme view given that it was successfully used by Botvinnik including a win against Bronstein in their 1951 WC match. There are very few, if any, openings that have been demonstrably totally refuted though many are out of fashion.

DJ

I guess my wording is a little strong, what I mean is that it is perhaps less optimal or perhaps less correct than other alternatives black has

Basil
11-08-2013, 11:03 AM
May we have a 'C' in defense in the thread title please.

antichrist
11-08-2013, 12:51 PM
May we have a 'C' in defense in the thread title please.

do you want another Trompalsky game one day, I still gotta finish that game with Boris RR one day

Desmond
11-08-2013, 02:43 PM
do you want another Trompalsky game one day, I still gotta finish that game with Boris RR one day
What game?

Igor_Goldenberg
15-08-2013, 04:11 PM
I always struggled to get an advantage against Leningrad (and rarely succeeded). Stonewall is quite sound as well (maybe not at David Smerdon's level, but alright for the rest of us).

I wouldn't advice to combine them, though. As Max pointed out, after 8.d5 black has pain for no gain.

James Peirce
16-08-2013, 09:10 AM
I wouldn't advice to combine them, though. As Max pointed out, after 8.d5 black has pain for no gain.
I will continue to play it until i am comprehensively beaten multiple times, a disadvantage is not a loss and can be turned around.

antichrist
16-08-2013, 06:45 PM
I think big George was defeated by stonewall circa 2000 coz he may have never learnt it

Max Illingworth
16-08-2013, 09:18 PM
@antichrist

Indeed one advantage of the Dutch Defence is that not many players below 2400 have a very well-prepared answer to it. If I recall correctly John Cox lost badly to Kovacevic in a Colle System (which ended up becoming a Stonewall structure after Ne5 and f4) before he started taking the line seriously.

@James Peirce

That is true and to be honest the opening won't have a big influence on your game results (unless one of the players makes an early blunder). Still it's easier to win from an equal position than from an inferior one!

@Igor_Goldenberg

Actually my assessment of the Dutch might have been too pessimistic as Nakamura and Kamsky have played the 7...c6 Leningrad successfully as a surprise weapon.

While on the subject of the Leningrad, Mikhail Gurevich liked to use the 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nf3 f5 move order to avoid a large number of Anti-Dutch systems. I guess that's another attraction of the Dutch: you can use any of (after 1.d4) 1...f5, 1...e6, 1...d6, 1...d5, 1...g6 and 1...c6 to reach Dutch positions in at least some of your games.

Basil
17-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Give me a "C"!

Adamski
17-08-2013, 04:24 PM
I am a fan of the Leningrad Dutch. A few games of mine with it are on Chess Chat. I have NEVER combined it with the Stonewall though. (Main reason: I think my d pawn belongs on d6 not d5 to keep White out of e5.)

Igor_Goldenberg
19-08-2013, 03:24 PM
@Igor_Goldenberg

Actually my assessment of the Dutch might have been too pessimistic as Nakamura and Kamsky have played the 7...c6 Leningrad successfully as a surprise weapon.

While on the subject of the Leningrad, Mikhail Gurevich liked to use the 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nf3 f5 move order to avoid a large number of Anti-Dutch systems. I guess that's another attraction of the Dutch: you can use any of (after 1.d4) 1...f5, 1...e6, 1...d6, 1...d5, 1...g6 and 1...c6 to reach Dutch positions in at least some of your games.
Leningrad with c6 is OK (Depasquale played it against me once and I didn't get anything out of the opening), as it's usually followed by d6 e5 anyway.. It's inclusion of ...e6 that seems dubious.

MichaelBaron
20-08-2014, 12:47 AM
Stonewall would be a lovely opening for Black..if not for black's white square bishop often ending up as a ''bad biship''. Leningrad would be good too...if not for the same bishop :). So..blame the bishop!

James Peirce
09-12-2014, 09:46 AM
I now switched to the Be7 stonewall line the best way i can find to develop that white squared bishop is by means of the manovoure Bd7-e8-g6 or h5

Adamski
09-12-2014, 11:41 AM
Against the Dutch, it can't be a Trompovsky! I lost badly in a Dutch Leningrad last night. Missed a nasty Ba3 winning exchange.

MichaelBaron
18-12-2014, 07:32 PM
Against the Dutch, it can't be a Trompovsky! I lost badly in a Dutch Leningrad last night. Missed a nasty Ba3 winning exchange.

Most move orders, can be Trompovsky against the Dutch. Actually lots of tricky systems possible against Dutch/Leningrad such as c3, Nh3 etc.

checkmatemate
13-01-2016, 03:03 AM
May we have a 'C' in defense in the thread title please.

Lol. Good catch ;)

Kevin Bonham
13-01-2016, 01:33 PM
May we have a 'C' in defense in the thread title please.

All things come* to those who wait! Fixed.


* Except unbanning for permanently-banned trolls, of course.

Rincewind
13-01-2016, 02:53 PM
All things come* to those who wait! Fixed.

Not exactly at the speed of light.

James Peirce
13-01-2016, 04:17 PM
It took so long that it became my 2nd favourite opening against 1. d4 (after the Kings Indian)

Adamski
13-01-2016, 10:55 PM
Most move orders, can be Trompovsky against the Dutch. Actually lots of tricky systems possible against Dutch/Leningrad such as c3, Nh3 etc.I meant that once Black has played 1..f5, to call Bg5 systems a Trompovsky is to stretch that opening name beyond its intended range. Which I thought was 1 d4 Nf6 2 Bg5. This position is not possible once Black has played 1...f5.

Basil
14-01-2016, 05:19 AM
All things come* to those who wait! Fixed.

A LIKE button would be handy.

Chris Ball
14-01-2016, 05:07 PM
Let's face it an attacking opening which allows one to sacrifice all their minor pieces for checkmate is worth trying.
Just ask Najdorf. Though it does look suspiciously unsound given the king gets exposed starting at move one.

MichaelBaron
15-01-2016, 12:12 AM
Let's face it an attacking opening which allows one to sacrifice all their minor pieces for checkmate is worth trying.
Just ask Najdorf. Though it does look suspiciously unsound given the king gets exposed starting at move one.

Err...is Dutch an attacking Opening? :) If white wants to be solid, not really :)

Capablanca-Fan
15-01-2016, 09:11 AM
This is my variant of the Dutch Defense that combines the Leningrad with the stonewall.
It can be found here http://chessmicrobase.com/g/tms8ff2z

A good way to combine the drawbacks of both.

Capablanca-Fan
15-01-2016, 09:22 AM
after 8.d5 exchanging of pawns leaves black with an isolated d-pawn but opens up the position for the black bishops.

In your analysis line, what is with that craven retreat 12.Bc1? White wins the exchange with 12.Bd6.

MichaelBaron
15-01-2016, 03:15 PM
A good way to combine the drawbacks of both.

Black got to be careful though not to end up with a bad black square bishop. Also white can aim for b4-b5 undermining black pawn chain (similar to how its done in Carlsbad variation of Queen's gabmit) and if successful, I do not fancy black's chances of holding its queenside.

Capablanca-Fan
15-01-2016, 11:06 PM
Black got to be careful though not to end up with a bad black square bishop. Also white can aim for b4-b5 undermining black pawn chain (similar to how its done in Carlsbad variation of Queen's gabmit) and if successful, I do not fancy black's chances of holding its queenside.

My comment was a recommendation against the line.

Chris Ball
20-01-2016, 07:14 PM
Err...is Dutch an attacking Opening? :) If white wants to be solid, not really :)

Yes Black usually plans to attack on the kingside in the Dutch defence.
Of course White isn't without chances which would be either the center or queenside.

Thebes
22-01-2016, 08:39 PM
I tried the dutch against IM Ari Dale today in the Aus Juniors Championship, didn't have much luck.

Kaitlin
19-02-2016, 09:31 PM
probably had holes in it :(

Adamski
19-04-2016, 08:25 AM
Last night for the first time in a standard time control game I played the Stonewall Dutch rather than the Leningrad. I was slightly worse from the opening (bad QB) but in the middle game my Filipino opponent blundered a piece. The best thing from my point of view was that Levi Descallar is 1830 ACF and, due to lack of preparation time and tiredness after work along with bad play, I had dropped to 1560 ACF.

ER
20-04-2016, 06:49 PM
Last night for the first time in a standard time control game I played the Stonewall Dutch rather than the Leningrad. I was slightly worse from the opening (bad QB) but in the middle game my Filipino opponent blundered a piece. The best thing from my point of view was that Levi Descallar is 1830 ACF and, due to lack of preparation time and tiredness after work along with bad play, I had dropped to 1560 ACF.

that was a very good win Adamski. Keep up the good work!

Garrett
21-04-2016, 07:44 AM
Yes that is a good result !

I played Levi in the last round of one of the SIO's I think and drew an interesting game.

Were you surprised when you emerged from the opening with a bad QB ? LOL sorry.

Patrick Byrom
22-04-2016, 03:07 PM
Were you surprised when you emerged from the opening with a bad QB ? LOL sorry.
One of my (fairly strong) students swapped off his KB (after Black played Bf5) and continued to play the Stonewall (as White). All of the positional problems, but none of the attacking benefits!

MichaelBaron
23-04-2016, 01:11 AM
Yes that is a good result !

I played Levi in the last round of one of the SIO's I think and drew an interesting game.

Were you surprised when you emerged from the opening with a bad QB ? LOL sorry.
If interesting..would be good to see :)

Adamski
23-04-2016, 11:16 AM
I was worse until he totally missed the threat involved in ....Qb8.3126

[Event "Rooty Hill Winter Swiss"]
[Site "Rooty Hill RSL CC"]
[Date "2016.04.18"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Levi Descallar"]
[Black "Jonathan Adams"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "1830"]
[BlackElo "1560"]
[ECO "A90"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]

1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d5 4.Nf3 e6 5.O-O Bd6 6.c4 c6 7.c5 Bc7 8.b4 Ne4 9.Bb2 O-O 10.Nbd2 Nd7 11.Ne5 Qe8 12.a4 Nxd2 13.Qxd2 Nf6 14.f3 b6 15.Rfc1 Bd7 16.Ba3 bxc5 17.Rxc5 Bb6 18.Rc2 Qb8 19.b5 Qxe5 20.Bc5 Bxc5 21.Rxc5 Qd6 22.bxc6 Bxc6 23.a5 e5 24.Rac1 Bd7 25.dxe5 Qxe5 26.f4 Qe8 27.Bxd5+ Nxd5 28.Rxd5 Bc6 29.Re5 Qd7 30.Qc3 Be4 31.Rc5 Rfd8 32.e3 Qd2 33.Qb3+ Kh8 34.Rc7 Qg2# 0-1

Adamski
23-04-2016, 11:19 AM
Michael: Your wish (on this occasion) is my command.

MichaelBaron
24-04-2016, 11:41 AM
Michael: Your wish (on this occasion) is my command.

Lol. Thank you.
Intersting game. White was doing very well out of the opening - then he blundered Qxe5. After this, Adamski was unstoppable.

Tony Dowden
26-04-2016, 10:18 PM
I was worse until he totally missed the threat involved in ...Qb8 ... Thanks Adamski. I've been playing the Dutch lately (or at least trying to) and I think I would have played 8...a5 to immediately challenge White's intention to dominate the queenside.

Adamski
26-04-2016, 10:49 PM
Thanks Adamski. I've been playing the Dutch lately (or at least trying to) and I think I would have played 8...a5 to immediately challenge White's intention to dominate the queenside.That sounds like excellent advice, Tony. Thanks and best wishes with your Dutch adventures.

1Nf3
10-09-2021, 01:58 PM
I got seduced into trying the Dutch after watching Simon Williams play it on a Youtube. Got his book. Got the t-shirt, and it seems if you play it well it can be a beautiful thing. But if you want to know what it's like to be absolutely swamped and hanging on for grim death after only a handful of moves this is the opening for you.

On a more positive note, I find the Stonewall Dutch the ideal thing to reply to d4 with.