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markusryan
14-01-2011, 03:46 PM
appreciate opinion of others on "convenient" draws there were a couple of examples towards end of Oz champs 2011 - bit like two prize fighters not laying the gloves on each other, sort of spoilt it a bit for me :( - Markusryan

Desmond
14-01-2011, 03:50 PM
appreciate opinion of others on "convenient" draws there were a couple of examples towards end of Oz champs 2011 - bit like two prize fighters not laying the gloves on each other, sort of spoilt it a bit for me :( - Markusryan
It doesn't bother me.

Adamski
14-01-2011, 03:50 PM
My view is that the short draws (one was 8 moves) could be seen as convenient (and I admit disappointing for spectators, both present and online), but on the other hand the players who have reached a score at which they are happy to draw do have the right to take the "soft" option by virtue of their earlier hard work.

markusryan
14-01-2011, 04:15 PM
yep a quick draw is understandable when you've reached the points that you want - would be nice however if FIDE adopted some changes to make chess a bit more like boxing! "The respected chess trainer Mark Dvoretsky, writing in a column for the Chess Cafe website, suggested that agreed draws should not be allowed at all, pointing out that such an agreement cannot be reached in other sports such as boxing. Although some have claimed that outlawing agreed draws entirely requires players to carry on playing in "dead" positions (where no side can reasonably play for a win), Dvoretsky says that this is a small problem and that the effort required to play out these positions until a draw can be claimed by repetition or lack of material, for example, is minimal. He also suggests that draw offers could be allowed if sent through an arbiter - if the arbiter agrees that a position is a dead draw, he will pass the draw offer on to the opponent who may either accept or decline it as usual; if the arbiter believes there is still something to play for in the position, the draw offer is not permitted.

There is no indication that any of these proposals will be adopted by FIDE in the near future, and it seems likely that except in specific tournaments expressly forbidding them, draw offers will continue to be allowed at any stage of the game. ":)

Desmond
14-01-2011, 04:24 PM
yep a quick draw is understandable when you've reached the points that you want - would be nice however if FIDE adopted some changes to make chess a bit more like boxing! "The respected chess trainer Mark Dvoretsky, writing in a column for the Chess Cafe website, suggested that agreed draws should not be allowed at all, pointing out that such an agreement cannot be reached in other sports such as boxing. Although some have claimed that outlawing agreed draws entirely requires players to carry on playing in "dead" positions (where no side can reasonably play for a win), Dvoretsky says that this is a small problem and that the effort required to play out these positions until a draw can be claimed by repetition or lack of material, for example, is minimal. He also suggests that draw offers could be allowed if sent through an arbiter - if the arbiter agrees that a position is a dead draw, he will pass the draw offer on to the opponent who may either accept or decline it as usual; if the arbiter believes there is still something to play for in the position, the draw offer is not permitted.

There is no indication that any of these proposals will be adopted by FIDE in the near future, and it seems likely that except in specific tournaments expressly forbidding them, draw offers will continue to be allowed at any stage of the game. ":)
But there is nothing to stop players from making a repetition early in the game and claiming a draw that way. In fact I think that was how one of the games in the Aust Open finished.

Kevin Bonham
14-01-2011, 05:18 PM
There's a big thread on this here (http://chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=7889).

The problem is that you can ban draw offers, ban draws before move X and even try to restrict contrived draws by repetition but all of it will have the same effect - that if players are determined to have a boring draw they will have a boring draw; the best you can do is force them to disguise it a bit for the spectators.

markusryan
17-01-2011, 08:21 AM
a number of GM's including Judit Polgar were very positive about the Sofia rules - the MTEL masters introduced it and the fans liked it - many top players seem forget that there is an Army of chess fans accross the globe who like to see a battle and not a miserable pathetic draw in 8 moves - i do however agree if both parties want to have a draw they probably will - but FIDE should at least try to discourage them with better rules

Denis_Jessop
17-01-2011, 03:03 PM
a number of GM's including Judit Polgar were very positive about the Sofia rules - the MTEL masters introduced it and the fans liked it - many top players seem forget that there is an Army of chess fans accross the globe who like to see a battle and not a miserable pathetic draw in 8 moves - i do however agree if both parties want to have a draw they probably will - but FIDE should at least try to discourage them with better rules

So too does Kramnik though he would rather they not be called the Sofia Rules :)

Still as Kevin points out, if players want to draw, they will. See also GM David Navara's similar comment in my post#84 on the thread Kevin links to. That also points out that, despite attempts to stop draws, dead boring openings that lead to them (eg Petroff's Defence) are not banned :D

DJ

Rhubarb
18-01-2011, 09:26 PM
I can't help thinking that this thread has more than once been directed at my games in the Australian Open, so I feel obliged to respond...

1) I wasn't too happy copping Black against the top 4 seeds. Perhaps you, markusryan, could tell me how I should have better played against them. If your answer is satisfactory I will give you my appearance fee by way of both apology and refund for failing to entertain you.

2) In my Round 9 game against Zhao, there was a triple repetition on move 26 (actually I didn't play my move 26...Qe8 but intimated to Yuan that I would formally claim a draw before we shook hands). Every commentator on this site seems convinced that White has a strong position and didn't understand why Zhao agreed a draw. Suffice to say, the two players came to the conclusion in the post-mortem that the repetition is practically mutually forced (although I admit ZYZ saw more than me), but I'm not about to give up my Scheveningen secrets to ingrates like markusryan...

3) The last round against Smirnov (Black again) I diligently prepared a range of King's Indian systems in anticipation of a hard fight. I was astonished as anyone else when Vladimir played 7.dxe5.

So how is this my fault? How could I have predicted that he didn't want to fight for a possible first finish? How am I expected to not agree a draw with Black in the Main Line King's Indian Classical Exchange Variation? I was totally deflated when he offered the draw. I thought for half an hour and so accepted the draw (the last time I tried to remember playing to win against Vlad in a King's Indian I mixed up the lines and got crushed in less than 30 moves - sorry for not repeating that spectacle, markusryan.......)

So to you Captain Underpants, Garvinator, markusryan, you can all get stuffed until you more intelligently define your objections to "friendly" draws. :)

Sincerely,
Greg Canfell

antichrist
18-01-2011, 09:34 PM
Well Shirty, this is the second issue that we finally agree upon, I fought long and hard for the cause.

A player can't be expected to play a weaker move to avoid a draw and then be penalised for playing the stronger move by scoring 3-1-0 or having to suffer whingers.

And Capt should take your hint and stuff something better in those underpants

Rhubarb
18-01-2011, 09:35 PM
P.S. I support the banning of draw offers, but oppose idiotic scoring systems such as 3-1-0.

ER
18-01-2011, 09:38 PM
I was there present in all Greg's games since he was my favourite player for this tournament and I openly supported him.
One should only see the tenacity and the determination on his face while he played each and every move!
It wasn't friendly believe me!

Basil
18-01-2011, 09:47 PM
1) I wasn't too happy copping Black against the top 4 seeds.
Yep, I'd be dark-as as well if I were anywhere near your rating.


... but I'm not about to give up my Scheveningen secrets to ingrates like markusryan...
Paying $30 HCDs - first payout in about 12 months. Economy's been tight.


3) The last round against Smirnov (Black again) I diligently prepared a range of King's Indian systems in anticipation of a hard fight. I was astonished as anyone else when Vladimir played 7.dxe5.
Aye.


So to you Captain Underpants ..., you can all get stuffed until you more intelligently define your objections to "friendly" draws. :)
Self-stuffing presently being undertaken. Great result in a good field, Greg - wished things had turned even better for you.

Spiny Norman
19-01-2011, 05:29 AM
I can't help thinking that this thread has more than once been directed at my games in the Australian Open, so I feel obliged to respond...
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you ... only the people at the board are able to judge whether a draw is a justified outcome or not, given the moves played to that point.

markusryan
21-01-2011, 11:21 AM
I can't help thinking that this thread has more than once been directed at my games in the Australian Open, so I feel obliged to respond...

1) I wasn't too happy copping Black against the top 4 seeds. Perhaps you, markusryan, could tell me how I should have better played against them. If your answer is satisfactory I will give you my appearance fee by way of both apology and refund for failing to entertain you.

2) In my Round 9 game against Zhao, there was a triple repetition on move 26 (actually I didn't play my move 26...Qe8 but intimated to Yuan that I would formally claim a draw before we shook hands). Every commentator on this site seems convinced that White has a strong position and didn't understand why Zhao agreed a draw. Suffice to say, the two players came to the conclusion in the post-mortem that the repetition is practically mutually forced (although I admit ZYZ saw more than me), but I'm not about to give up my Scheveningen secrets to ingrates like markusryan...

3) The last round against Smirnov (Black again) I diligently prepared a range of King's Indian systems in anticipation of a hard fight. I was astonished as anyone else when Vladimir played 7.dxe5.

So how is this my fault? How could I have predicted that he didn't want to fight for a possible first finish? How am I expected to not agree a draw with Black in the Main Line King's Indian Classical Exchange Variation? I was totally deflated when he offered the draw. I thought for half an hour and so accepted the draw (the last time I tried to remember playing to win against Vlad in a King's Indian I mixed up the lines and got crushed in less than 30 moves - sorry for not repeating that spectacle, markusryan.......)

So to you Captain Underpants, Garvinator, markusryan, you can all get stuffed until you more intelligently define your objections to "friendly" draws. :)

Sincerely,
Greg Canfell

You seem to have a bit of anger going on for what was a post to simply guage peoples opinion of draws (certainly not directed at you), for which on face value can be disappointing to those of us who love to watch fighting chess. I must say that the games you played were probably the most exiciting and you are to be commended for your play - I really enjoyed them. By the way I'm not an ingrate and the others you told to get stuffed are probably not either - as in one of my posts I believe I "intelligently" suggested that the article written by Mark Dvoretsky had some relevance - so I hope to see more of your exciting games over the coming months and hopefully to counter my ingratedness I might learn more :cool:

Rhubarb
22-01-2011, 01:11 AM
You seem to have a bit of anger

Yes, I don't call me Shirty for nothing.


You seem to have a bit of anger going on for what was a post to simply guage peoples opinion of draws (certainly not directed at you), for which on face value can be disappointing to those of us who love to watch fighting chess. I must say that the games you played were probably the most exiciting and you are to be commended for your play - I really enjoyed them. By the way I'm not an ingrate and the others you told to get stuffed are probably not either

OK, I'm sorry for calling you an ingrate as you're clearly a discerning chessplayer and fan (as am I). As for Captain Underpants, he's always looking to get stuffed (:P :clap: to CU) and the Garvinatrix is just on one of his many hobby-horses.


- as in one of my posts I believe I "intelligently" suggested that the article written by Mark Dvoretsky had some relevance. I entirely agree, and I think the best way for FIDE to go forward is to just ban draw offers outright.

P.S. I've had another think about 3-1-0 scoring systems, and as if they weren't dumb enough in round-robins, there is the TOTAL INSANITY in Swiss system tournaments. More soon on the relevant threads...

markusryan
22-01-2011, 02:31 PM
I look forward to more of your "daring" games :cool: