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View Full Version : Do you think we should remove the Union Jack from the Australian Flag?



Basil
25-01-2010, 05:52 PM
Should the Union Jack be removed from the Australian Flag?

This poll is not concerned with what, if anything, it should be replaced with; be it nothing or a complete overhaul. Simply, should we dump the 'The Jack'.

Rehardless of the poll's limitations, by all means discuss as broadly as you care in the thread.

Basil
25-01-2010, 05:54 PM
I voted 'no', but that shouldn't be confused with my British heritage. I believe I would vote the same had I been born here.

Rincewind
25-01-2010, 06:24 PM
I voted "don't care".

I went to a wedding in a CoE church on the weekend. Either side of the alter they had a flag. One side was the Union Jack, the other was the Australian flag.

Is this normal for CoE churches in Australia?

Saragossa
25-01-2010, 06:43 PM
If someone can supply with me with logical reasons to drop it... until then I think it is part of our history. On another note. I think it should be standard that every where an Australian flag is an indiginous Australian flag should also be raised, slightly lefty of me (I think).

CameronD
25-01-2010, 06:52 PM
We are still under the control of the queen and english courts (privy council i think). Until that changes, we should keep the union jack as we are still an english colony.

Basil
25-01-2010, 06:55 PM
I think it should be standard that every where an Australian flag is an indiginous Australian flag should also be raised, slightly lefty of me (I think).
I don't think it's lefty. I do object to many indigenous policies/ ideals, but acknowledging this country's original inhabitants is most important - more important than the acknowledging the The Brits IMO.

Desmond
25-01-2010, 07:20 PM
Would like to see some cost/benefit analysis from those who want to change it.

Kaitlin
25-01-2010, 07:38 PM
If we change it now what will there be left to do come the reveloution :(

Kevin Bonham
25-01-2010, 08:52 PM
Hell yeah. Sometime in the 1990s, in a letter for which I won a fancy fountain pen (which I lost a few years later) I suggested we should "expel the cancerous spider that lurks in the corner of our lifeless, soulless flag". Despite whatever changes there have been in my political views since, I still think it is an absolute joke that the flag of another country is a substantial part of our own, and that we should have a flag that whatever its nature stresses our independence, not our past. Of course I support cutting all potentially controlling political ties through the British monarchy as well.

The Tassie flag is particularly repugnant since it includes the Union Jack and a lion emblem also derived from UK symbolism (even though there aren't too many lions in Britain.)

Rincewind
25-01-2010, 08:52 PM
We are still under the control of the queen and english courts (privy council i think).

When was the last time the queen made a decision on Australian foreign (or domestic) policy? (Or even have any say on the appointment of the governor general?)

Regarding appeals to the Privy Council, I believe that was greatly limited for much of the 20th century and pretty well abolished federally in the 1970s and from state courts in the 1980s with the passage of the various Australia Acts through state parliaments.

Denis_Jessop
25-01-2010, 09:06 PM
We are still under the control of the queen and english courts (privy council i think). Until that changes, we should keep the union jack as we are still an english colony.

Any decisions that the Queen may make affecting Australia are made on the advice of her Australian Ministers assuming that there are any to be made. So "control" is not the right word. There are no longer appeals to the Privy Council while the High Court declared some years ago that it would no longer regard itself as bound by decisions of the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords, then the UK equivalent of the High Court.

DJ

CameronD
25-01-2010, 09:40 PM
When was the last time the queen made a decision on Australian foreign (or domestic) policy? (Or even have any say on the appointment of the governor general?)

Regarding appeals to the Privy Council, I believe that was greatly limited for much of the 20th century and pretty well abolished federally in the 1970s and from state courts in the 1980s with the passage of the various Australia Acts through state parliaments.

Ut was a long time ago, but there is some technically, though insignificant cases where the privy council can rule on, cant remember what it was though

CameronD
25-01-2010, 09:46 PM
Ut was a long time ago, but there is some technically, though insignificant cases where the privy council can rule on, cant remember what it was though

Foud it,

disputes about the limitations of constitutional powers between the Commonwealth and the states, or between the states themselves.

In thery these could go to the privy council, though in practise permission wouldnt be granted.

Goughfather
25-01-2010, 10:09 PM
I think if compelled to choose one or the other, I'd say that I'd be quite happy for the flag to change, but I'm certainly not going to lose a lot of sleep if it doesn't.

I'm not entirely sure about Cameron's analysis, but the Australia Act 1986 ended appeals to the Privy Council for all intents and purposes. The introduction of this legislation is cited as an important point in the evolution of Australia as an independent nation, along with Federation and the Westminster Adoption Act 1942.

CameronD
25-01-2010, 10:20 PM
I voted the wrong way, meant no, not yes

Ian Murray
25-01-2010, 11:14 PM
We are still under the control of the queen and english courts (privy council i think).
Not so

Until that changes, we should keep the union jack as we are still an english colony.
Not so

The majority of Australians today are of non-British heritage - the Union Jack means nothing to them

michael.mcguirk
25-01-2010, 11:25 PM
If someone can supply with me with logical reasons to drop it... until then I think it is part of our history. On another note. I think it should be standard that every where an Australian flag is an indiginous Australian flag should also be raised, slightly lefty of me (I think).

As a question, does USA raise a flag of Native Americans each time they raise an American flag?

And I'm not even going to go into the Palistine issue ;)

While I don't agree with the idea of us ignoring the fact the Aborigines were here first, I do find it interesting some of the more extreme measures we take now to 'flower' the fact that we did invade them in the first place.

Desmond
25-01-2010, 11:33 PM
Privy council = council that meets in the privy?

Moriarty
27-01-2010, 09:02 AM
I voted no. Australia's British heritage has had more of an influence on the country than the southern cross and nobody seems to think about removing that. Besides, when we got rid of God Save the Queen we replaced it with a tune that is (IMO) atrocious, I would hate to see something similar happen with the flag.

Denis_Jessop
27-01-2010, 10:14 AM
Foud it,

disputes about the limitations of constitutional powers between the Commonwealth and the states, or between the states themselves.

In thery these could go to the privy council, though in practise permission wouldnt be granted.

That's an old thing. The matters referred to are called "inter se questions". When Privy Council appeals were allowed, inter se questions needed the High Court's certificate to go to the Privy Council which the High Court decided would never be granted.

DJ

Capablanca-Fan
27-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Definitely keep. The flag was designed by Ivor Evans and chosen over 32,000 other contenders. It has been Australia's symbol ever since 3 September 1901, when it flew over the Exhibition Building in Melbourne in an official ceremony in the presence of the first Prime Minister. The small Union Jack is a fair reflection of the British heritage we see in our language and parliamentary system, and the Southern Cross and Commonwealth Star represents the new nation to the South. Since it's not broken, don't fix it.

Adamski
27-01-2010, 11:04 AM
I voted "don't care".

I went to a wedding in a CoE church on the weekend. Either side of the alter they had a flag. One side was the Union Jack, the other was the Australian flag.

Is this normal for CoE churches in Australia?I don't think so. None of the C of E churches I have been inside had this arrangement.

I also voted "no".

Kevin Bonham
27-01-2010, 11:24 AM
The flag was designed by Ivor Evans and chosen over 32,000 other contenders.

Yes (well actually there were five designers each coming up with the same scheme independently), but on criteria that included that the flag display loyalty to the British Empire.


The small Union Jack is a fair reflection of the British heritage we see in our language and parliamentary system, and the Southern Cross and Commonwealth Star represents the new nation to the South. Since it's not broken, don't fix it.

The whole thing is basically just the British navy flag with a constellation and a star added. The influence of British flag tradition is hardly confined to the one corner.

arosar
27-01-2010, 11:32 AM
I voted yes. That's only because I think we should recognise that we're now a very diffirent nation, with many people from different parts of the world.

That said, I do want to retain all these 'British' symbols that you see around you. For example, we still have a few of those red post boxes with "EIIR" on them. It's also kinda cool that we call our navy ships "HMAS" something. And we should always use British spelling. FMD, there's too much American shit around like fkn "pharmacy", dropping the "ou" (e.g. neighbor instead of neighbour) and this fkn Halloween shit! I know that last one isn't a spelling but it shits me. Honestly.

And btw, we should be careful with our immigration policy. That's all I'm sayin'.

AR

Capablanca-Fan
27-01-2010, 11:50 AM
And we should always use British spelling. FMD, there's too much American shit around like fkn "pharmacy", dropping the "ou" (e.g. neighbor instead of neighbour)
It's ironic that our major leftist Americophobic party uses the American mis-spelling "Labor".

pax
27-01-2010, 04:04 PM
My biggest problem with it is that it is not distinctive in any way. I suspect many foreigners would not be able to differentiate the Australian flag

http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/ASTL0001.GIF

from, say the New Zealand

http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/NWZE0001.GIF


Cook Islands

http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/CKIS0001.GIF

not to mention all the British territories (Caymans, British Virgins, Falklands, Monserrat, Pitcairn, etc), which all have the same design - dark blue background, Union Jack in the top left, plus a unique little bit (e.g coat of arms) on the right hand side.

Adamski
27-01-2010, 04:20 PM
Re pax's post, why does the Australian flag Southern Cross look less like the Southern Cross than the New Zealand flag's? :eek:

Rincewind
27-01-2010, 04:35 PM
Re pax's post, why does the Australian flag Southern Cross look less like the Southern Cross than the New Zealand flag's? :eek:

Well if you call the omission of Epsilon Crucis more accurate...

Desmond
27-01-2010, 04:38 PM
Re pax's post, why does the Australian flag Southern Cross look less like the Southern Cross than the New Zealand flag's? :eek:
How do you figure that?

Adamski
27-01-2010, 04:49 PM
Epsilon Crucis in the Aus flag IMHO does not add to the impression of a cross in the Southern Cross.

Rincewind
27-01-2010, 05:30 PM
Epsilon Crucis in the Aus flag IMHO does not add to the impression of a cross in the Southern Cross.

Regardless of your opinion, Epsilon Crucis is very much a part of the constellation and thus when comparing two representations the only significant difference is that the NZ version omits ε and the Australian doesn't. The objective assessment must be the more complete representation is more accurate.

After all, the intention is to represent a constellation of stars, not an actual cross.

Adamski
27-01-2010, 10:34 PM
Regardless of your opinion, Epsilon Crucis is very much a part of the constellation and thus when comparing two representations the only significant difference is that the NZ version omits ε and the Australian doesn't. The objective assessment must be the more complete representation is more accurate.

After all, the intention is to represent a constellation of stars, not an actual cross.Ok. But it is interesting (though does not prove anything) to note that the Commonwealth Bank symbol, which is the Southern Cross, is more like the NZ flag's version than the Australian one.

Kevin Bonham
27-01-2010, 10:51 PM
I like the NZ one more because it has spiffier stars than ours.

Adamski
27-01-2010, 10:56 PM
I like the NZ one more because it has spiffier stars than ours.Yeah. BTW what is the big star on the bottom left of Aus flag meant to represent? Federation in some way? (I could probably find this on google but I know if I ask it here, and look tomorrow, someone will have answered me.)

Kevin Bonham
27-01-2010, 11:00 PM
Yeah. BTW what is the big star on the bottom left of Aus flag meant to represent? Federation in some way? (I could probably find this on google but I know if I ask it here, and look tomorrow, someone will have answered me.)

Yes; it is the Federation. One point for each state and one point that was added in 1908 to symbolise the then Territory of Papua and any other future territories.

Rincewind
28-01-2010, 12:25 AM
Ok. But it is interesting (though does not prove anything) to note that the Commonwealth Bank symbol, which is the Southern Cross, is more like the NZ flag's version than the Australian one.

Not sure about this one either. According to http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_the_commonwealth_bank_logo_symbolise

Q: What did the commonwealth bank logo symbolise?

A: The logo represents the five stars of the Southern Cross.

Desmond
28-01-2010, 07:08 AM
Did you see the kerfuffle (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100126/0554507894.shtml) about Google wanting to use the "Aboriginal flag" as part of their daily image on Australia Day? The image's copyright owner refused to give permission, so it was replaced with the sun and they were not represented. Good job, dumbass.

Basil
28-01-2010, 07:52 AM
Did you see the kerfuffle (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100126/0554507894.shtml) about Google wanting to use the "Aboriginal flag" as part of their daily image on Australia Day? The image's copyright owner refused to give permission, so it was replaced with the sun and they were not represented. Good job, dumbass.
Hot dog that's funny!


The report notes that the artist "designed the flag as a symbol of unity and national identity" in the 1970s, but apparently that unity and identity doesn't extend to anyone else actually displaying the flag without paying for it.
LMAO. SERIOUSLY. L.M.F.A.O. :lol:

Desmond
28-01-2010, 08:51 AM
He was interviewed on Triple J's hack yesterday. He got a bit narky when asked about his earnings from the image. You can download (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/podcast/) the podcast.

Adamski
28-01-2010, 09:01 AM
Not sure about this one either. According to http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_the_commonwealth_bank_logo_symbolise

Q: What did the commonwealth bank logo symbolise?

A: The logo represents the five stars of the Southern Cross.Ok. You live and learn! Thanks. Also thanks to Kevin for pointing out the nature of the federation link in the Aus flag.

Rincewind
28-01-2010, 02:51 PM
Ok. You live and learn! Thanks. Also thanks to Kevin for pointing out the nature of the federation link in the Aus flag.

No worries. I did some reading on the NZ government website and apparently at the time of the flags establishment there was some discussion in New Zealand as to whether they should have four or five stars and it was decided to go with four since, at that time, most New Zealanders could not count to five. :P

Actually the four stars were apparently chosen for aesthetic reasons as they symbolise the four compass points.

pax
28-01-2010, 04:56 PM
Did you see the kerfuffle (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100126/0554507894.shtml) about Google wanting to use the "Aboriginal flag" as part of their daily image on Australia Day? The image's copyright owner refused to give permission, so it was replaced with the sun and they were not represented. Good job, dumbass.

Did he actually refuse permission, or did they just leave it off due to copyright concerns?

Edit: ok, it's clear he did refuse permission. It's hard to judge without actually being privy to the dialogue between him and google. I believe it's not unusual for flags to be copyrighted.

Desmond
28-01-2010, 05:00 PM
Did he actually refuse permission, or did they just leave it off due to compyright concerns?Yes he did. They negotiated a price and did not reach an agreement.

Kevin Bonham
02-02-2010, 05:41 PM
Judging from the current Essential Report there won't be much action on this one for a while:

Australia to become a republic
Support 41 Oppose 32 Neither 23 Don't Know 4
Changing Australian flag
Support 23 Oppose 54 Neither 20 Don't Know 2
Changing Australian National anthem
Support 22 Oppose 52 Neither 24 Don't know 3

ElevatorEscapee
02-02-2010, 06:39 PM
I personally think that the flag should be changed to represent a changed national identity and to differentiate it from the dozens of similar flags (eg Fiji).

My personal preference would be to keep the Southern Cross and the existing star pattern, change the background colour to green, the stars to gold, and instead of the Union Jack in the corner, use the Australian Made symbol (line drawing of the kangaroo) without the words of course. :)

1439

CameronD
02-02-2010, 06:54 PM
I personally think that the flag should be changed to represent a changed national identity and to differentiate it from the dozens of similar flags (eg Fiji).

My personal preference would be to keep the Southern Cross and the existing star pattern, change the background colour to green, the stars to gold, and instead of the Union Jack in the corner, use the Australian Made symbol (line drawing of the kangaroo) without the words of course. :)

1439

I thought the australian made symbol is owned by a company called Australian Made Campaign Limited (AMCL),

ElevatorEscapee
11-02-2010, 08:16 PM
Has anyone been following the story about the Australian winter Olympic team in Vancouver getting in trouble for displaying a flag with the boxing kangaroo on it? (Apparently, it was considered "too commercial" as it was a registered trademark.)

Flag story (http://www.news.com.au/world/australian-athletes-allowed-to-fly-boxing-kangaroo-flag-at-vancouver-games/story-e6frfkyi-1225827899152)

The rights to the boxing kangaroo image were bought by the Australian Olympic Committee from Alan Bond (when he was going bankrupt), and apparently they use it to promote their program where they send athletes into schools to give a positive message to kids.

http://www.pando.com.au/san/articles/story/38584.html

What attracted me to the "Australian Made" symbol was the elegence of the simplicity of its design (only three lines represent a kangaroo), however, I feel it is facing the wrong way for a flag.

It should be facing the flagpost. If the three lines design cannot be bought from the copyright holders, maybe a simple outline kangaroo drawing such as displayed by the Australian Air Force, or even the North Melbourne Aussie rules Football team, would make a suitable alternative. :)


Post Script:

Yes, I know that the original poster specified that he wasn't concerned as to what the Union Jack should be replaced with, but all too often in my life I see people complain about the way things are, without offering a viable alternative, or even so much as a remotely plausible one.

(This concept was brilliantly exploited by John Howard in the so called "Republican Debate", where he succesfully used fear of possible alternatives to cow the Australian public into voting for a decision that the majority of the population objected to in principle, by offering them an even worse alternative to vote for.)

Sir Cromulent Sparkles
13-02-2010, 09:36 PM
i remember "the late show" ( saturdays on abc, somewhere in the 90's with mick molloy rob sitch tony martin tom gleisner etc etc etc ) interviewing people to gauge what design would be preferable to use if the current flag was changed.

i also remember this segment because one guy in levi's with long hair said we should have "a bum with a fist coming out of it" for the australian flag. :hmm: :hmm:

tony martins response to the gentleman ......... "your a thinker"

not a bad idea though .....................