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Jesper Norgaard
06-12-2009, 07:24 PM
I have tried to figure out on different digital clocks how to set the time for the new FIDE official time as 40 moves in 90 minutes and then 30 minutes for the rest of the game, with 30 seconds added for each move from move 1. I believe it is the time control they play with in the classic 1-day games in the World Cup in Khantiy-Mansiysk at the moment (Rapid and Blitz games have different time controls of course).

In the following page belonging to www.dgtprojects.com, there is a claim that FIDE demands that all available time for one period must be used up before the additional time for the next period is added to a players clock, is that really true? See:
http://digitalgametechnology.com/site/index.php/Clocks/fide-timing-on-dgt-clocks-german.html

The effect should be that you can't specify that time is added after 40 moves because it will violate the above rule.

I couldn't find anything about it in the FIDE Laws of Chess, although I did not look very thoroughly for it. Can anybody help to clarify this?

Jesper Norgaard
09-12-2009, 05:25 PM
Perhaps my previous post was a bit too abstract for people to respond, but how would you set the new FIDE time on the DGT 2000:

Use preset mode 25.
(1) Extra time pr. move set to 30 seconds
(2) Number of moves in first period set to 0
(3) Second period set to 0 minutes
(4) Number of moves in second period set to 0
(5) Third period set to 90 minutes
(6) Number of moves in third period set to 40
(7) Fourth period set to 30 minutes

Does that look correct? Any practical experience with this new FIDE time?

There are possible variations on setting 90 minutes in (3) or earlier instead of the last periods, and whether to set the number of moves in (6) to 40 or zero. It seems from the above recommendation (in German) that FIDE recommends in (6) that zero is used instead of 40, or else the players might get the additional time before they are entitled to it, if 40 clock presses were completed but less moves on the board. However, there seems to be no official FIDE document on this, not even a recommendation. I do hope I'm wrong though, and that FIDE has not left this completely blowing in the wind. After all this is the official FIDE time for title events from mid-2010 must be played, not allowing the old FIDE time 90min+30sec which is currently valid (they sure are square-minded in FIDE! One size fits all).

What is clear is that the clock move counter (whether shown or not) by no means can be determining if there is a time forfeit or not, that can only be determined if there is a claim of time forfeit, with a reconstruction by the arbiter and players of the game using the scoresheets. Since only the player himself must be responsible to whether there is a flag fall before move 40 or not, I don't really see the argument that it is misleading that the extra 30 minutes are added before he is entitled.

When I played around with my Excalibur clock I ended up with the transition between the 90-minute period and the 30-minute period resulted in another 90 minutes added! However, I might have goofed up the time setting in that testing, I will have to test some more. Also using the Excalibur and setting 90 minutes in the first period, while in theory all the settings looked correct, in fact the 30 seconds per move were not added (a clock fault or a general programmatic error of the Excalibur?). This didn't happen when first period was empty (zero), second period was 90 minutes, and final period was 30 minutes when everything worked, and 30 seconds was added correctly for each move in both periods.

Garvinator
09-12-2009, 07:33 PM
Perhaps my previous post was a bit too abstract for people to respond, but how would you set the new FIDE time on the DGT 2000:

Use preset mode 25.
(1) Extra time pr. move set to 30 seconds
(2) Number of moves in first period set to 0
(3) Second period set to 0 minutes
(4) Number of moves in second period set to 0
(5) Third period set to 90 minutes
(6) Number of moves in third period set to 40
(7) Fourth period set to 30 minutes

Does that look correct? Any practical experience with this new FIDE time?

I have had to set this time control quite a few times. Using the DGT 2000, the procedure you have outlined above is incorrect and here is why.

I am doing this from memory as I do not have a dgt 2000 in front of me, but I think you can work out the gist of it.

1) Choose option 25 on the dgt 2000.
1) Set both initial time to 1:30
2) Press OK. It will come up 00 for both sides, keep pressing ok till you get through this. If you were to set anything it here, it would just be adding seconds to the initial time for a player ie you would be giving the player 1 hr 30 mins and 30 seconds from the start. You are not setting the increment here.
3) After pressing OK to move along from the seconds, you come to 0:00. This is now where you are setting the increment. Make the increment for both players 30 seconds by having the clock saying 0:30. Then ok to move along to the next setting.
4) The clock will now be showing 00. This is the move counter. You want to change this to be showing 40. This means the clock is now set for 40 moves. Press OK to move to the second time control.
5) Now set both sides for 30 minutes and then just keep pressing ok till you get to the clock saying 1:30 for both players.

The clock is now set for 40 moves in 90 minutes + 30 mins with 30 seconds from the start till end of the game.

One of the limitations of the dgt 2000 is that it is not possible to have a different level of increment from the first period to the second.

To set the 40/90 + 30 time control, it is only required to set the first and second time period and then just keep pressing ok through to where the clock again shows the initial time.

The reason for this is two fold:

1) Under this setting, you only want two time periods, so all you are setting is two time periods. By not setting the move counter for the second period, the clock recognises that the second period is the final period.
2) If you wanted to set three time periods ie 40 moves in 100 minutes, 20 moves in 50 minutes, 15 minutes with 30 seconds from the start till the end, then you would set the third time period under setting 25.

Jesper Norgaard
10-12-2009, 10:54 AM
Thanks Garvinator, I appreciate your feedback.

I had come to the conclusion myself that probably it is adequate to start with period 1 instead of later periods as my example. There was a problem on the Excalibur clock Game Time II, but I will come back about that later when I have more results. In essence it didn't add time per move in the first period.

However, there remains a question from the dgtprojects web site (the links above I gave). It says

"Die FIDE verlangt das der Übergang statt findet wenn ein Spieler auf null Sekunden kommt, nicht nach eine bestimmte Zahl von Züge."

my translation runs:
"FIDE requires that the transition takes place when one of the players hit zero seconds, not on a certain number of moves"

Okay so you actually code the 40 moves in the setting of the time control, but the above suggests from DGT that FIDE requires the 40 moves to be 0 moves instead, so that additional time for next period is not added after 40 clock punches, but when all the 90 minutes + extra time has expired (which may never happen if the player is nervous and thinks he is losing on time). However, if DGT Projects says FIDE requires one thing, but FIDE doesn't mention it themselves, who are we to believe? I would assume DGT is really the most authoritative entity after FIDE and arbiter organizations, but I have not seen any input on this from the latter 2 entities.

arosar
10-12-2009, 03:23 PM
The Excalibur clock is rubbish. We have a couple of it at the park. It's just an awful clock to use, especially for setting and resetting the time. But it's at least marginally better than the Saitek, which is the worse.

Of course, my preference is the DGT followed by the Chronos. The problem with the former is the whole business of having to switch the device on and off in order to reset the time. I don't know why those dickheads in DGT can't simply add a simple reset button. And the Chronos lacks the bangability of the DGT and just doesn't feel right sometimes.

AR

Bill Gletsos
10-12-2009, 10:22 PM
However, there remains a question from the dgtprojects web site (the links above I gave). It says

"Die FIDE verlangt das der Übergang statt findet wenn ein Spieler auf null Sekunden kommt, nicht nach eine bestimmte Zahl von Züge."

my translation runs:
"FIDE requires that the transition takes place when one of the players hit zero seconds, not on a certain number of moves".This has always been my understanding of what happens.

Back in the days when non digital clocks were the norm if the time control was say 40 moves in 90 minutes then 15 moves in 30 minutes repeating then the way this was handled was that the 30 minutes was manually added not after both players had made 40 moves but when one of the players flag fell.

Adamski
10-12-2009, 10:42 PM
I have tried to figure out on different digital clocks how to set the time for the new FIDE official time as 40 moves in 90 minutes and then 30 minutes for the rest of the game, with 30 seconds added for each move from move 1. Thos playing in Sydney in january should note that this is the time limit for the Australian Championships - Championship, Major, Minor and Classic. Organisers and arbiters there should read this thread re how to set the clocks!

Garvinator
10-12-2009, 11:32 PM
This has always been my understanding of what happens.

Back in the days when non digital clocks were the norm if the time control was say 40 moves in 90 minutes then 15 moves in 30 minutes repeating then the way this was handled was that the 30 minutes was manually added not after both players had made 40 moves but when one of the players flag fell.
Yes, when there is no increment for the first period, the players can just keep thinking until their time reaches zero and then on a digital the clock adds the second period.

But when there is an increment, are you saying that the arbiter is supposed to reset each digital clock after 40 moves? The dgt's have the ability to auto add the time for the second period by setting the move counter, so would this not be better than having the arbiter having to re-set each and every dgt.

I would think that auto adding the second period is now what occurs in most tournaments that use dgts when increments are being used in the first period.

I also asked about this point back here: http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=10402

Bill Gletsos
10-12-2009, 11:49 PM
Yes, when there is no increment for the first period, the players can just keep thinking until their time reaches zero and then on a digital the clock adds the second period.

But when there is an increment, are you saying that the arbiter is supposed to reset each digital clock after 40 moves? The dgt's have the ability to auto add the time for the second period by setting the move counter, so would this not be better than having the arbiter having to re-set each and every dgt.Never said that at all. I was making the point that clocks should add the time when one clock hits zero not when 40 moves have been made.

I would think that auto adding the second period is now what occurs in most tournaments that use dgts when increments are being used in the first period.Of course.

I also asked about this point back here: http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php?t=10402The clock should add the second time control when one clock reaches zero and not based on the move counter.

Garvinator
11-12-2009, 12:26 AM
The clock should add the second time control when one clock reaches zero and not based on the move counter.
But then with a game involving increments, this would require one player to have to 'waste time' by having to allow their clock to reach zero because each time they make a move they would receive a 30 or 60 second increment.

This is different from when there is no increment because when there is no increment the clock will just keep counting down regardless of how many moves are made near to zero seconds.

But with a 30 second increment, each time a player makes a move their clock increases in time, meaning that to receive the second time period they would have to actively wait for their clock to reach zero.

Another difference being that with no increment, most likely one if not both players are no longer recording, so sometimes the exact moment a player passes 40 moves is not clear, so having one player reach zero seconds and then adding the second time period is easier.

But with a 30 second increment, both players are still recording and so the moment one player passes 40 moves is usually very clear.

Bill Gletsos
11-12-2009, 12:37 AM
But then with a game involving increments, this would require one player to have to 'waste time' by having to allow their clock to reach zero because each time they make a move they would receive a 30 or 60 second increment.

This is different from when there is no increment because when there is no increment the clock will just keep counting down regardless of how many moves are made near to zero seconds.

But with a 30 second increment, each time a player makes a move their clock increases in time, meaning that to receive the second time period they would have to actively wait for their clock to reach zero.

Another difference being that with no increment, most likely one if not both players are no longer recording, so sometimes the exact moment a player passes 40 moves is not clear, so having one player reach zero seconds and then adding the second time period is easier.

But with a 30 second increment, both players are still recording and so the moment one player passes 40 moves is usually very clear.I am fully aware of all that, however the FIDE requirement is that additional periods are added once one clock hits zero and not after xx moves.

How to code this into a DGT XL clock is shown here (http://digitalgametechnology.com/site/index.php/Clocks/fide-timing-on-dgt-clocks-german.html).

Jesper Norgaard
11-12-2009, 07:49 AM
I am fully aware of all that, however the FIDE requirement is that additional periods are added once one clock hits zero and not after xx moves.

How to code this into a DGT XL clock is shown here (http://digitalgametechnology.com/site/index.php/Clocks/fide-timing-on-dgt-clocks-german.html).

Except for the above page, I can't find any "authoritative" information on that. I have your word for it (which is quite good for me), a Danish arbiter informing the same in a Chess Forum, a video from DGT instructing how to set the DGT clocks mentioning it - still I wonder where is the official FIDE resolution (or draft, or whatever) as an URL. And where is the debate that went before this decision among arbiters or within FIDE? I am sure that clock manufacturers (DGT, Excalibur etc.) programmed the clocks to handle this explicitly once upon a time, but were outmaneouvered by FIDE decisions. That is also why this time is not a default option for instance on the Excalibur clock, FIDE has wandered in different directions since these clocks were designed.

There is an issue on the Excalibur: after flag fall the red light will flash indefinitely until the game ends, or somebody actually stops it, puts it into correction mode, and click "OK" on all settings (that will make the flag go away). In my mind the explicit definition of 40 moves works better for a lot of reasons except one single reason: a player not understanding his obligation to check if 40 moves have been made on the chess board, might be happy too early when the clock gives additional time. If you know this and handle it correctly (ask arbiter for clock correction in this moment, or don't let time drop below 30 minutes) I would prefer it because you automatically get extra time without having to figure out if this is the end of the next-last period (90 min), or the end of the last period (30 min) in which case you lose on time. :wall:

Of course there might be counterarguments I have not thought of?