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alexmdc
09-08-2004, 01:30 PM
At the end of a wild time scramble, a DGT reads:

white: 0:00
black: (-) 0:00

Where (-) indicates the flashing minus sign when a flag falls.

Black in this case was mated on the board, (QK vs K, so black has insufficient mating material) but had claimed flag. The DGT however indicates black's flag had fallen before white's. Or has white's not fallen at all?

I always thought the DGTs only allowed one flag to fall - if one played ran out of time the minus sign would flash and the clock would cease ticking for the other player.

In the case above, what has happened?

Is it:
a) both flags have fallen, in which case the result is a draw
b) black's flag has fallen, not white's, hence black's claim of flag is false and white wins

Note also black was mated on the board, but black claimed he had called flag before white had finishes the mating move.

:eh:

Bill Gletsos
09-08-2004, 01:33 PM
Note also black was mated on the board, but black claimed he had called flag before white had finishes the mating move.
If there was no reliable witness regarding the flag fall then the mate stands and black loses.

ursogr8
09-08-2004, 01:39 PM
If there was no reliable witness regarding the flag fall then the mate stands and black loses.

I think our DOP believes the DGT clocks show minus against the first flag to fall. Therefore he would presume black's flag fell first in this case.
It is definite that the second clock (white) continues to decline while it is white on-the-move.

Not arguing against your ruling Bill.

starter

Garvinator
09-08-2004, 01:41 PM
If there was no reliable witness regarding the flag fall then the mate stands and black loses.
wouldnt black lose anyone on time anyway if white had pointed it out if i understand alex's scenario? it would be slightly more interesting if it was white's flag that fell first :eh:

alexmdc
09-08-2004, 01:42 PM
What if black was the arbiter? :(

My proper question is: has a flag only fallen on a DGT when the minus sign flashes? or when the clock reaches zero.

From my experience on internet play, you can still have time when you clock reads 0:00 if you have under a second left. Is this the case with the DGTs?

Bill Gletsos
09-08-2004, 02:03 PM
The minus sign only indicates which flag fell first.
However in blitz this is irrelevant as Article B8 of the Rapid rules is applicable which states:
If both flags have fallen, the game is drawn.

Note that this is different where article 10 applies which states:
If both flags have fallen and it is impossible to establish which flag fell first the game is drawn.

Note that in a normal game coming up to a time control xmoves in Y minutes then Article 6.12 applies which states:
If both flags have fallen and it is impossible to establish which flag fell first, the game shall continue.

It would be a reasonable conclusion by the arbiter that if both clocks show 0.00 that both flags are down.
In which case without the mate on the board the game would be drawn.

shaun
09-08-2004, 05:05 PM
What if black was the arbiter? :(

My proper question is: has a flag only fallen on a DGT when the minus sign flashes? or when the clock reaches zero.

From my experience on internet play, you can still have time when you clock reads 0:00 if you have under a second left. Is this the case with the DGTs?

Firstly, the DGT's keep counting down on the lightning setting, even if one flag has fallen. This is to keep them consistent with the conditions that players were used to with manual clocks. Therefore when asked to rule on a flag-fall claim in lightning I ignore the minus sign and only go on the times on the clock. The rules of chess state that to make a valid claim for flag-fall you must have time left on your own clcok. If both players are out of time, and mate hasn't been claimed, then it's a draw.

Secondly, John Nunn has claimed that if you take less than a second to move, you use no time at all, as the counter starts at the top of the second. I have not veriied this claim myself. Therefore once you have reached zero you have really run out of time (and then some).

Alan Shore
09-08-2004, 05:32 PM
Secondly, John Nunn has claimed that if you take less than a second to move, you use no time at all, as the counter starts at the top of the second. I have not veriied this claim myself. Therefore once you have reached zero you have really run out of time (and then some).

This is only true for analogue clocks. Digitals measure fractions of seconds. If you don't believe me, just hit the clock as fast as you can and time will still tick down.

shaun
09-08-2004, 07:13 PM
This is only true for analogue clocks. Digitals measure fractions of seconds. If you don't believe me, just hit the clock as fast as you can and time will still tick down.
Actually Nunn's claim was made specifically about the DGT clocks. But as I have said I haven't verified the claim myself.