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ChessGuru
10-09-2009, 06:09 PM
My latest blog post (http://www.cordover.com.au) is a worrying one.

In wanderings amongst clubs this past few weeks I have happened upon some very disgruntled chess players/administrators. Horrid allegations and rumors about CV finances. (I think stemming from a lack of communication rather than any actual mis-use of funds.)

As I have said from the start; I believe that the CV committee is doing the best they can with the resources they have available. But maybe their best isn't good enough?

I know that a few CV executive members post on this forum; I'd like to call on them to answer the allegations of financial mis-management.

Do you have any financial statements?

(Does anyone have the budget/statements produced for the last AGM?)

Spiny Norman
11-09-2009, 05:52 AM
I haven't been to the last couple of CV AGMs, as that duty has fallen to someone else at Croydon. However past practice was that all financials were published annually by CV, just like virtually every other not-for-profit or community organisation. If people are worried about the finances they should ask the representatives from their club for a copy of the CV financials. If they don't have them (i.e. if they threw them out) then I think they will be out of luck, as I don't recall CV having ever published them on their website. (Croydon doesn't publish such information on its website either, as the website is for public access, whereas the financials are for members only). I would expect that a formal approach from an affiliated club's President or Treasurer for a copy of the last set of CV financial statements would be the way to go. After all, it is the clubs that are affiliated with CV, not individual people.

Desmond
11-09-2009, 09:14 AM
(Does anyone have the budget/statements produced for the last AGM?)I think your mate Trevor "mop & bucket required" Stanning is the Treasurer so one would hope he has them.

MichaelBaron
11-09-2009, 09:17 AM
I would think financial statements are distributed at the annual CV meetings. Surely, if you call CV treasurer he will be able to email you a copy :)

SHump
11-09-2009, 11:01 AM
Yes each club should hold a copy of the previous financials. But also, as per the CV constitution:

12 (1) The Executive shall cause to be distributed with the notice of the Annual General Meeting a proposed budget.
(2) The proposed budget shall show all significant items of income and expenditure it is proposed be received and incurred during the forthcoming Financial Year as well as the exact amount proposed as each fee, fine, levy, entrance fee, subscription and other amount (if any) to be paid in respect of membership of the Association, affiliation of Clubs and registration of players.
And so a new CV budget will come out with the AGM notice, if it hasn't already..

ChessGuru
11-09-2009, 12:24 PM
(Croydon doesn't publish such information on its website either, as the website is for public access, whereas the financials are for members only).

Why is it that you don't publish your financial statements in a public forum? What purpose does it serve to have them for members only?

SHump
11-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Why is it that you don't publish your financial statements in a public forum? What purpose does it serve to have them for members only?

I would think that members of an association, by being members of that association and only for that reason, have the right/privilege to know how the club is travelling financially.

Note that each association must submit an annual statement. The association needs to keep proper accounting records and, in some states prepare, have audited and lodge financial statements to consumer affairs. You can also see about getting a copy of such statements from consumer affairs if you are concerned.

If you want to change the rules for incorporated associations, as to what is made public, it would be better to talk to ASIC or the consumer affairs departments in each state. At a club level, their constitution will also dictate what is/is not made public.

As to what purpose it does or doesn't serve, to publicise some items (such as financial information) is really not for me to comment on. But to expect such publishing, for members of a volunteer/not for profit group, is raising the bar too high, IMHO.

If you really want that information now, I suggest you become a member of the association you are interested in.

Disclaimer: I am not a member of Croydon chess club, and do not speak on their behalf.

ER
11-09-2009, 02:12 PM
An excellent article! Thanks SHump!
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Denis_Jessop
11-09-2009, 04:25 PM
All incorporated associations (CV is one) are required to present their audited annual accounts to their AGM and to file a copy of those accounts as part of their annual return to the local registrar.

DJ

Spiny Norman
11-09-2009, 06:12 PM
Why is it that you don't publish your financial statements in a public forum? What purpose does it serve to have them for members only?
Exactly for the reasons that Shump and DenisJ have mentioned:
-- there is no obligation to publish them publicly
-- we do have an obligation to provide them to our members
-- we also have an obligation to file them annually with Consumer Affairs (VIC) because we are an incorporated body

Amongst the privileges of membership of an association (whether incorporate or unincorporated):
-- access to the services/facilities that the club offers
-- the right to vote at the AGM
-- the opportunity to stand for office
-- access to the financial records

To sum up: the average chess club is a private entity, not a public one. Very few entities are public (e.g. government bodies, publicly listed companies on the ASX, and so on).

Having said that ... some not-for-profit bodies do publish publicly ... this is done (I think) particularly in cases where those bodies depend heavily on public money to survive (e.g. donations and so on). If a particular chess club or organising body chose to make their finances public, I have no objection. It might be seen very positively, as transparency. But I don't think we ought to read a negative connotation into a decision not to do so when no obligation exists.

Garvinator
12-09-2009, 11:59 AM
Having said that ... some not-for-profit bodies do publish publicly ... this is done (I think) particularly in cases where those bodies depend heavily on public money to survive (e.g. donations and so on). If a particular chess club or organising body chose to make their finances public, I have no objection. It might be seen very positively, as transparency. But I don't think we ought to read a negative connotation into a decision not to do so when no obligation exists.
CAQ publishes its Council meeting minutes and AGM minutes on its website.

ChessGuru
12-09-2009, 12:06 PM
OK - I will ask my question again; I must have mis-communicated the intention of my question.


the financials are for members only

The fact that there is no obligation to do something is NOT a reason not to do it.

We know there is an obligation to submit an annual financial statement; does that mean that clubs are only producing financial statements once per year (to meet requirements!)..... there is a requirement for an association to have a minimum 5 members - does that mean all associations should stop trying to get more members once they have 5?? :wall:


What benefits do you see for the club to make you CHOOSE to publish your financials only to members?
OR
What would happen if they were made public? Any negatives?


raising the bar too high, IMHO

That's a good example of the Limited Thinking which chess suffers from. If members and administrators make sure the bar is kept low then why are we surprised that our results are dragging in the mud?

Expectation rules outcome -- we need to set higher expectations, raise the bar.


If you really want that information now, I suggest you become a member of the association you are interested in.

Interesting idea. So in the particular case of Chess Victoria - the members of CV are the CLUBS - so if an individual wants some information then they have to become a CLUB?

What we see is institutionalised lack of communication. Which is why IMHO we should RAISE the bar -- start having some expectations of CV (and other organisations). Which is why IMHO CV should be publishing their financials publicly... I can't see what the negative of publicly shared information would be?

Goughfather
12-09-2009, 12:25 PM
Just out of interest David, do you pubish the financials for Chess Kids online? Remember, just because you have no obligation to do so doesn't make it a valid reason not to do so.

Spiny Norman
12-09-2009, 04:57 PM
In the case of a club choosing whether or not to publish its financials, it might want to consider whether this might have an impact on:
-- its ability to raise (additional) sponsorship;
-- its ability to attract government funding;
-- its ability to attract new members;
-- its market positioning
-- etc

Some of these factors (and I am sure there are many others) might encourage you to publish, or to not publish, depending on the particular situation of the club. I expect what suits some might not suit others.

SHump
12-09-2009, 05:04 PM
So in the particular case of Chess Victoria - the members of CV are the CLUBS - so if an individual wants some information then they have to become a CLUB?

Not quite - if you are a delegate of an existing fully affiliated club you can be a member of CV, as per their constitution, (if you can find a club willing to nominate you as a delegate of course):


Membership of the Association shall be limited to natural persons classified by the Association as:-
(a) Delegates;
(b) Members of the Executive; and
(c) Honorary life members.


Alternatively, from what I read of the CV constitution, you can form a chess association (an Inc association, not formed for the pecuniary profit of its members), apply to become a provisionally affiliated club of CV, and then when you have at least 10 members apply to be come a fully affiliated club. And then you can have at least one delegate attend/vote, but not until then.

On the topic of publishing widely association financials, I would be very surprised if any group would not know on a monthly or quarterly basis exactly what is their financial position, with the club's executive carefully monitoring this. Just because something is not being published to the world does not mean it isn't happening. But knowing and doing something about the state of a club (financials or membership numbers or who is going to run the fete this year [sorry - P&C lingo got into the way]) is left to its MEMBERS, or at least those members interested in taking an active part in the group/club.

Chessguru seems to be taking an ombudsmen or regulator role in the CV financials, in that chessguru is not a member of CV but wants to find/fix something. Only MEMBERS see the details/hear the explanations and only MEMBERS can do something about fixing anything, if required. If CV were a public company, or was wanting to raise funds for instance, then the lender could reasonably ask for financial details. But if I met chessguru on a golf course and he asked to know if my golf social club was adequately monitoring its financial affairs, I would not really give him the time of day (assuming he was not a member of the social club).

I am not sure if I can make it any plainer.

As you have said in another place:

I'd encourage CV to correct this simply and easily by reporting that:
a) financial statements were available to clubs well in advance of the prior AGM and will be again this year
b) there is a current financial statement (monthly?) and clubs have been given copies


Can someone on the CV executive provide a statement addressing these points?

ChessGuru
13-09-2009, 11:32 AM
Chessguru seems to be taking an ombudsmen or regulator role in the CV financials, in that chessguru is not a member of CV but wants to find/fix something. Only MEMBERS see the details/hear the explanations and only MEMBERS can do something about fixing anything, if required.

I feel no need to see the financial statements MYSELF - I just think it is a mistake from CV that in talking with clubs that THEY (the clubs) and their members had no way of knowing how CV was traveling.

I see the problem as Lack of Communication which leads to Disenfranchisement.

CV can complain that there aren't enough volunteers to do more than the bare minimum; but with a culture of secrecy, closed doors and exclusion is there any wonder that nobody is rushing forwards to be part of their non-existent Vision for the organisation?

I would hope to create a much more inclusive, welcoming and open organisation for the future.

ChessGuru
13-09-2009, 11:38 AM
Just out of interest David, do you pubish the financials for Chess Kids online? Remember, just because you have no obligation to do so doesn't make it a valid reason not to do so.

Very valid point.

Chess Kids detailed financials are available to all those who I wish to engage in the realisation of the Chess Kids vision. All staff have a detailed insight into the financial performance of the business - many companies don't have this 'open book' policy. We do.

I don't make them readily available to 'general public' because of the possible negative effect on our ultimate goals by competitors.

If CV wants engagement from clubs and individuals and assistance to achieve a certain vision then I believe an OPEN policy would be best.

Ninja
13-09-2009, 03:54 PM
Very valid point.

Chess Kids detailed financials are available to all those who I wish to engage in the realisation of the Chess Kids vision. All staff have a detailed insight into the financial performance of the business - many companies don't have this 'open book' policy. We do.
Likewise, CV detailed financials are available to all clubs/members etc who are involved with CV and its aims. You are quite clearly not a part of the CV organisation, are not a club and are not a member. Purely an outsider who has CHOSEN not be part of the CV vision but instead to actively undermine it from the sidelines. Why would any club/member, in their right mind, wish to give you access to anything ???
It is quite simply for you to engage with CV/ACF, all you need to do is work with them, support the national rating system. cease the misleading advertising etc, instead of spending all your efforts undermining them. Maybe then someone might take your bid for CV president seriously instead of just dismissing it and looking for the ulterior motive , which on past performance, is quite clearly there.

Z&MLoh
13-09-2009, 05:00 PM
ChessGuru,
I am confused by this thread. Let me explain.

First, you say you happen to come across some disgruntled chess players/administrators. Source of the disgruntlement was CV finances. So you created this thread and YOU call on the CV executives members to answer allegations of financial mis-management.

I am wondering why:
a) the same disgruntled chess players/administrators do not approach the CV Treasurer themselves?
b) it falls upon you, as a non-member of the association, to call on the CV executives to answer the allegations?
c) you think posting this thread in a public forum makes it easier to get the information? Snail King and MichaelBaron both thought as I do, that a direct approach would be better.


You pressed that the financial statements should be published in a public forum and should not be for members only in post#6. Then you say in post#16 that you have no need to see the financial statements yourself.

As SHump very clearly and patiently posted, only members of that association have the right/privilege to know how the association is travelling financially. If the incorporated association chooses to publicise any information, then it is up to the association. If members of the association are already entitled to see the financial statements and you, as an non-member, have no need to see the financial statements as you have stated, then the question is, for whose benefit?


In post #17, you say that you do not readily publish Chess Kids financials to "general public" because of the possible negative effect on Chess Kids ultimate goal by competitors.

Yes, I agree. Information like why the Chess Kids franchise model was dismantled is important and you would want to keep that from your competitors.


Perhaps you see Chess Victoria as a competitor and market, all rolled in one. Otherwise, why would you be

a) distributing Chess Kids paraphernalia outside the venue at Chess Victoria's Victorian Junior Championships in June? Furthermore, to the uninitiated, the flyer seems to indicate that Chess Kids had something to do with the Victorian Juniors Under-12 and Under-18 championships.
b) distributing Chess Kids paraphernalia outside the venue at Chess Victoria's Victorian Secondary Schools Open Teams Championship recently?
c) Seeking election for president of Chess Victoria?

In the end, the clubs in Chess Victoria will have to decide whether the medicine is worse than the disease.

Goughfather
13-09-2009, 06:26 PM
Chess Kids detailed financials are available to all those who I wish to engage in the realisation of the Chess Kids vision.

By "all those who I wish" are you referring to all staff of Chess Kids, or simply an inner clique?


All staff have a detailed insight into the financial performance of the business

What do you mean by "detailed insight"? Do they have access to all financial records, or are they relying upon the "detailed insight" you provide to them orally? In short, is their insight limited to the type of insight that you are wishing to provide them with?



If CV wants engagement from clubs and individuals and assistance to achieve a certain vision then I believe an OPEN policy would be best.

It seems that if you believe this, it would be advisable to start leading by example.

ChessGuru
13-09-2009, 09:03 PM
I am wondering why:
a) the same disgruntled chess players/administrators do not approach the CV Treasurer themselves?

Perhaps they already have? You are right to wonder. It is a sad indictment on the entire situation that an 'outsider' has to ask the question! How disengaged must a club be to reach a situation when they can't even be bothered trying to communicate with CV.

It is possible for CV to point fingers and BLAME the clubs for not wanting to communicate. I would much rather that CV accepted responsibility and worked out what they could do to re-engage those who feel (rightly or wrongly) poorly about the association.

As I've said before - grumbles are a symptom of lack of communication rather than anything genuinely untoward. Should be easy to fix.


c) you think posting this thread in a public forum makes it easier to get the information? Snail King and MichaelBaron both thought as I do, that a direct approach would be better.

I don't post here in order to actually get the information. I post here to raise awareness of what I see as a fundamental issue of lack of communication and club dis-engagement which can be addressed and solved.


then the question is, for whose benefit?

For the benefit of CV. If CV were to communicate with clubs, members, public etc more effectively then they would realise more success. Everything I post here is with the objective of assisting CV improve. I believe financial communication (ie. posting their financials online) would be beneficial ...


Perhaps you see Chess Victoria as a competitor and market, all rolled in one.

If you and Ninja really believe that my only objective is some obscure 'secret' commercial scheme and that my evil plan is to become CV President for the financial gains to be made - - well you either don't understand business very well or you have a personal bias.

You can take all the rated and club players in Victoria, plus all the junior players involved through CV; add together all the $s they spend on chess (including books, memberships, tourny entry fees, ratings fees etc etc) - don't even bother to take out any expenses (prize money, rents etc etc) and if you offered that to me as a fee for my time to run for CV President it wouldn't come close to what I could make by putting the same time into other business activities.

So it just isn't logical to look for the 'ulterior motive'... Perhaps I just quite like chess and want to see it succeed. :hmm:

ChessGuru
13-09-2009, 09:14 PM
By "all those who I wish" are you referring to all staff of Chess Kids, or simply an inner clique?

What do you mean by "detailed insight"? Do they have access to all financial records, or are they relying upon the "detailed insight" you provide to them orally?

Actually, I am leading by example. It is all staff and it is all records.

I think that part of the cause of the massive financial illiteracy in the Western World is the 'stigma' attached to money. The idea that it's not a polite conversation at the dinner table... :doh:

An effective strategy for dealing with teenage drug-abuse is to establish OPEN lines of communication (we've all see the "talk about it" ads on TV) and not to hide the issue under the pillow and hope it goes away.

Similarly I believe that all society should be able to speak freely about money.

I suspect you'll find that those who HAVE money talk about it and end up educating their kids, each other, and become more financially literate; eventually ending up with more money.

Those who have no knowledge of money and it's working are perhaps (wrongly) ashamed of this fact (often equating money with value/worth) and so don't talk about it - which perpetuates their financial woes because they never learn to deal with money; nor do their children.

It is a big social problem.

ER
13-09-2009, 10:35 PM
The following are only rumours, or abstract thoughts, or just opinions from chess players (not chess administrators) just commenting on David Cordover's Manifesto re CV administration. BTW, I found it amazing that many people who never go online know what's goiing on and follow events as they develop with interest.
Please treat the following as a gossipping column and not as a serious source of information about what's going on:
It's all a flash in the pan, chess is not ready for drastic changes!
It's very serious! We had a chess revolution in Victoria at the beginning of the year, we 're going to have another one at it's end!
Look! there is no money in chess, you can't have a serious approach when most of people involved are non paid volunteers and chess prizes are just a little more than peanuts!
You can't afford to stay amateur for ever. Look at the modern chess administrator! They need to know their website maintainance, accounting, statistics, and be knowledgeable (and presentable) enough to be able to approach potential sponsors!
To take control you need numbers! I don't think Cordover has them!
You never know! There is talk of some moves made that might surprise you!
There aren't any well known personalities involved, are they?
Don't know about that, the major force behind modern Australian Chess re the Coaches haven't express their opinion yet have they?

CameronD
13-09-2009, 10:49 PM
Money creates class divisions which to a degree we thankfully dont have in this country. To talk about money repeatedly in general company will be to put people into different respect levels, wheather intended or not. Money is best left to being teached by parents.




Actually, I am leading by example. It is all staff and it is all records.

I think that part of the cause of the massive financial illiteracy in the Western World is the 'stigma' attached to money. The idea that it's not a polite conversation at the dinner table... :doh:

An effective strategy for dealing with teenage drug-abuse is to establish OPEN lines of communication (we've all see the "talk about it" ads on TV) and not to hide the issue under the pillow and hope it goes away.

Similarly I believe that all society should be able to speak freely about money.

I suspect you'll find that those who HAVE money talk about it and end up educating their kids, each other, and become more financially literate; eventually ending up with more money.

Those who have no knowledge of money and it's working are perhaps (wrongly) ashamed of this fact (often equating money with value/worth) and so don't talk about it - which perpetuates their financial woes because they never learn to deal with money; nor do their children.

It is a big social problem.

Z&MLoh
13-09-2009, 11:27 PM
How disengaged must a club be to reach a situation when they can't even be bothered trying to communicate with CV.

...

I post here to raise awareness of what I see as a fundamental issue of lack of communication and club dis-engagement which can be addressed and solved.


Seem to recall a Club President's meeting on 6 August. Agenda (http://www.*******.com.au/state-chess-associations/320-new-cv-executive-9.html#post17224)was:

1. Present
2. Apologies
3. AGM - Sunday 29th of Nov’09
4. CV Calendar 2010 – 15 of Nov’09
5. Forthcoming Events

5.1- School Finals
5.2- CV Championships & Reserves
5.3- CV Blitz Championship – 29th of Nov’09
5.4– Australasia Masters – Dec’09

6. CV Newsletter- MCC

7. Winter Interclub
7.1 Revamp of Interclub- Peter Caissa
7.2 Vic. Teams Championship- Carl Gorka

8. How to encourage Junior Chess in Vic. – MCC

9. Sponsorships
9.1 FIDE - Australasia Masters – Dec’09
9.2 LEXUS of Blackburn – CV Championships ‘09

10. Other Business
10.1 Clubs details to be update on CV website

There was even a photo:
http://chessvictoria.netfirms.com/chess%20presidents.jpg

Club Presidents (http://www.*******.com.au/state-chess-associations/320-new-cv-executive-9.html#post17316) in attendance were:

Attending
John Langer, Mentone
Andrew Wemyss, Geelong
Peter Caissa, Hobsons Bay and Yarraville
Mirko Rujevic, City of Yarra,
Grant Szuveges, Melbourne
Leonid Sandler
Vic Kildisas, Elwood
Frank Cheng, Box Hill
Trevor Stanning, Treasurer
Richard Goldsmith, Croydon
Katrin Wills, Chair
Gary Wastell, ACF
David Cordover, sub Carl Gorka
Marieke van Dijk, Ranges
apology Frankston.

ChessGuru
14-09-2009, 08:46 AM
Seem to recall a Club President's meeting on 6 August.

Good point (now I don't know if you are for or against me). Chess Victoria held a meeting to discuss re-vamping interclub:

1. 14 people present for 3 hours (42 hours of work, plus costs of travel, catering, notepads for attendees - but mostly; an entire full-time WEEK)

2. At least 6 of those present never said a word during the meeting.

3. Where are the results? A week of work and nothing to show for it?

4. How many of the clubs were actually satisfied with the outcome? (and if they aren't, don't dare BLAME them for not speaking up during the meeting....it is the responsibility of CV to find out what people want and create a solution; not for the clubs to come up with the solutions).

5. CV ended up by saying "well, we'll leave it to you, the clubs, to arrange your schedules" -- so basically CV is just giving more work to the CLUBS; yet they want to charge entry fees!?

Doesn't surprise me that most people kept their mouths shut...it's a problem if every time you make a suggestion and just end up with more work on your own plate!

Chess Victoria is charging the clubs fees; they should feel obligated to DO SOMETHING for them. Give something back to the clubs - don't spend a whole week to end up with an interclub format which nobody is really happy with and then pass the buck to the CLUBS to organise it!! :wall:

So the choice is yours -- if you want to continue with the current CV structure then good luck; history is a good predictor of future success. Slow decline in the number of clubs, members and events. Eventually there will be nothing left.

On the other hand you can be brave enough to accept the fact that what has been happening just isn't working and make a wholesale, massive change. I am well aware that nobody likes change (particularly the older generation) and I am not wanting to force it on anyone....I am here to provide another option which people can choose. But at the end of the day you need to accept responsibility for your choices.

Desmond
14-09-2009, 09:25 AM
Did any of the club officials present ask for the CV financials?

Basil
14-09-2009, 10:27 AM
It occurs to me that disgruntled stake-holders at some stage must either be named or have their reasons for not being named be aired and tested. David, you are creating an environment where you are making all manner of allegations on behalf of unknown people. I'm starting to wonder whether more than three of them exist.

In the spirit of your avowed openness, have you encouraged these cowering miscreants to speak up, and in turn have they steadfastly refused to do so? Have they satisfied you that their lack of backbone is likely to result in eternal damnation and that you must be their voice?

Personally, I think they'll be fine. After all this is CV. You know? Go on.

Z&MLoh
14-09-2009, 12:12 PM
Did any of the club officials present ask for the CV financials?
I wasn't there so the information is only second-hand. I am told that club presidents were invited to put items on the agenda and the list that was posted was the result of input from the club presidents.

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 12:32 PM
I wasn't there so the information is only second-hand. I am told that club presidents were invited to put items on the agenda and the list that was posted was the result of input from the club presidents.

Go and look at your post re. the agenda and you'll see 2 points raised by club Presidents, both from the MCC. Our Prez also had a number of other issues that he wanted to raise after speaking to members of our club, but these were either ignored or deemed not important enough to get to the agenda.

The majority of the agenda was set by CV:)

Ninja
14-09-2009, 07:25 PM
Go and look at your post re. the agenda and you'll see 2 points raised by club Presidents, both from the MCC. Our Prez also had a number of other issues that he wanted to raise after speaking to members of our club, but these were either ignored or deemed not important enough to get to the agenda.

The majority of the agenda was set by CV:)
You speak as if CV is some foreign organisation whereas most people would realise that CV is really made up of elected office holders who were voted in by the members (ie the clubs) ??

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 08:07 PM
You speak as if CV is some foreign organisation whereas most people would realise that CV is really made up of elected office holders who were voted in by the members (ie the clubs) ??

I don't speak as anything. I was answering a comment that seemed to be saying that the agenda of the President's meeting was set by ideas forwarded by the Presidents of the clubs. This was patently not the case as most of the agenda was set by the exec of CV, none of whom are club Presidents.

I don't see the relevance of whether they were voted in or not to my last post?

samantha
14-09-2009, 09:26 PM
It seems to my friends and I that the ostentatiously named "chessguru" aka D.Crodover,the owner of Chess world of Kids has an agenda based on a simplistic smear campaign,(no names,please,we're smearing) with the aim of (somehow)validating his own desire to get control of Chess Victoria.There is no point endeavouring to rebut any of his statements as they are merely slurs dressed Up with Wierd caPitalS.We note that his only supporter hereabouts is his principle employee,C.Gorka.Unsurprising.Perhaps this thread should be discontinued for it's lack of REAL RELEVANCE AND INTEGRITY!(never did get a response from Crodover as to why he LOVES standing outside Box Hill Chess Club):wall:

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 09:35 PM
It seems to my friends and I that the ostentatiously named "chessguru" aka D.Crodover,the owner of Chess world of Kids has an agenda based on a simplistic smear campaign,(no names,please,we're smearing) with the aim of (somehow)validating his own desire to get control of Chess Victoria.There is no point endeavouring to rebut any of his statements as they are merely slurs dressed Up with Wierd caPitalS.We note that his only supporter hereabouts is his principle employee,C.Gorka.Unsurprising.Perhaps this thread should be discontinued for it's lack of REAL RELEVANCE AND INTEGRITY!(never did get a response from Crodover as to why he LOVES standing outside Box Hill Chess Club):wall:

I have not supported anyone, nor slurred anyone. My support is to the MCC who I am VP for. My vote at the AGM will be for whoever the MCC votes for as we will vote as a bloc,for the candidate who best represents our interests.

You are smearing me and I don't even know who you are, though most people would know of my support for the current, past and (whoever it is) future CV admin.

Feel free to reread my previous posts, and if you really think I'm still slurring anyone, then please explain to me how. If you have a point, then I'll happily retract my statement and apologise for it:) Otherwise, I expect an apology back again.

ChessGuru
14-09-2009, 09:58 PM
Unsurprising.Perhaps this thread should be discontinued for it's lack of REAL RELEVANCE AND INTEGRITY!(never did get a response from Crodover as to why he LOVES standing outside Box Hill Chess Club)

What I really enjoy is the fact that as soon as there is the smell of a chance to abuse or attack someone the thread is instantly a hit!

Check out threads I've started where there is an opportunity to provide some constructive ideas, feedback and positive discussion. They are EMPTY! But perhaps this is the wrong forum for constructive conversations.

To answer your question; I love standing outside Box Hill because there are no windows inside and I much prefer natural light to gloom. :)

Stop looking for a chance to abuse someone and look at the fundamentals - nobody cares if CV has blown all their money on the pokies, or if it's sitting safely in a bank account. Complaints and gripes of that nature are a SYMPTOM of an underlying problem - that is a LACK OF COMMUNICATION.

I am trying to communicate an opportunity for CV to improve and re-engage the interest and enthusiasm of clubs (who are their members)!

I do have a hidden agenda - that being that I know that there is a small chance that I won't be elected as president (BHCC has a lot of votes) and should that happen I want the next president to have a BAGFULL of good ideas to go away with .... so I've been publishing all my ideas publicly and good luck to the next CV president who can steal them and call them his/her own.

If I can get just a few people thinking a bit differently, just a few ideas germinating and CV doing just a few things differently by the fact that I've put up a challenge --- we'll I think that is a successful outcome.

samantha
14-09-2009, 10:15 PM
D Crodover speaks in motherhood statements,meanwhile answering nothing.(why was he handing out leaflets to "suck" people into his world of Kids "events".One isn't being negative by wanting genuine responses;meanwhile....."chessguru" creates.what one might call the"straw man";ie that the current administration of Chess Victoria is uncommunicative.It seems to be the case in the mind of "chessguru" Only...Is D.Croadover unhappy that his former(!!) employee is doing such a good job as C.V president.I think "chessguru" must ackowledge things in the context of adult behaviour,not year 9 sophistry.:rolleyes:

samantha
14-09-2009, 10:48 PM
We noted you were supporting "chessguru"aka D,Cordover.If you read your own posts that is manifestly the case.:"chessguru",in his ongoing posts creates slur by insinuation.No statement was made that you "slurred".You need to read and think more clearly.For what it's worth,are you "chessguru's" main teaching employee?

ChessGuru
14-09-2009, 10:49 PM
D Crodover speaks in motherhood statements,meanwhile answering nothing.(why was he handing out leaflets to "suck" people into his world of Kids "events".

Oh well...my marketing didn't work. You clearly didn't read my leaflets -- they were selling clocks and books much more than events....

Perhaps CV is communicating to BHCC (because they live together) - but lets ask some questions of this 'straw man':

1. When was the last CV communication to clubs?
2. Does CV even have a method of distribution? Or do they just use the Box Hill email list?
3. When was the last CV newsletter?
4. What is an appropriate time-frame for an email to be responded to?

a) Email sent to CV on Aug 26 (no response as yet)
b) Email sent to CV on Sept 3 (no response as yet)
c) Email sent to CV on Sept 10 (no response as yet)
5. Since my announcing to run for CV president (August 20) there has been considerable discussion about CV and possible improvements, ideas, suggestions etc.... yet we've heard nothing from CV at all!
6. After that wonderful President's Meeting - where are the minutes? Where are the proposed interclub details?
7. When did CV last talk to a country chess club?
8. Maybe the communication is on the website under "Executive Announcements (http://chessvictoria.netfirms.com/cv_exec_announcements.htm)". Yep, one on 25-August, previous one in mid-March, previous to that on 3 March and 6 March, and then the opening non-motherhood statement on 7 February .... clearly an Action Plan. I particluarly like:

We will be accountable and approachable at all times and therefore we will schedule regular meetings of CV and this meeting dates will be very soon posted on CV website.
Tell me more about the regular meetings - and where is the schedule posted?

You win - I have no evidence to back up my comments. The average email response time of 20 days (and counting) is probably "Best Practice" for Associations with Low Expectations.

The 7 Executive Announcements (in 220 days) are more than enough to keep the clubs and members excited and engaged. I foresee a magnificent future for chess now...

And I guess all the info we could ever want is easily found on the CVs Showcase Website. So probably no need for old-fashioned 'newsletters'.

I wasn't at the last AGM so really shouldn't comment on it's timing or poor distribution of financial information.

You're right ... it's probably all in my mind....

Or maybe your "straw man" analogy was completely accurate....

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 10:50 PM
I'll take it that samantha's reluctance to answer my question in my earlier post http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=255042&postcount=34 is just a tacit, silent vindication of my integrity. Thankyou:)

I will still apologise for any slurs made, but expect no apology back again:) I hope that many club officials are aware of the lengths that we of the MCC committee are going to in order to bring the Victorian chess community closer along with CV and other club committees.:)

Mischa
14-09-2009, 10:50 PM
Samantha ...who are you?

Davidflude
14-09-2009, 10:55 PM
My support is to the MCC who I am VP for. My vote at the AGM will be for whoever the MCC votes for as we will vote as a bloc,for the candidate who best represents our interests.



It is not just the one person who you are voting for. There is the rest of the executive. I hope that the MCC will be voting for the persons who they consider most suitable in each and every position, and not as a block vote for one faction. There are some very talented people already on the Chess Victoria
executive. Hopefully more will stand, at least some of whom will be totally independant. We know who the present executive of Chess Victoria are. Perhaps David Cordover will indicate whether he is running a full slate of candidates and name who they are.

Mischa
14-09-2009, 10:57 PM
Samantha you are a new member to chess chat....welcome...

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 11:00 PM
We noted you were supporting "chessguru"aka D,Cordover.If you read your own posts that is manifestly the case.:"chessguru",in his ongoing posts creates slur by insinuation.No statement was made that you "slurred".You need to read and think more clearly.For what it's worth,are you "chessguru's" main teaching employee?

I suggest it is you that need to read more carefully. I am not supporting the need to see financial records of CV which is the main gist of this thread. As I replied to Ninja, I was talking about the President's meeting where the MCC committee felt that our voice wasn't fully heard. There were some issues we felt important, but CV didn't feel those to be important enough to bring to the meeting.

Mike Loh suggested the agenda of that meeting was created primarily by input from the President's of the clubs. I was stating fact by saying that wasn't the case. The agenda was primarily set by the CV exec. How this denigrates the CV exec, or backs up chessguru's points on this thread I fail to see. And if by stating facts, my integrity is to be attacked by an anonymous poster then excuse me for feeling a bit bemused.

Anyway, yes I am an employee of Chess Kids, but you are the first person to ever question my integrity and unless you have some clear proof that it can be called into question, I would hope that you'll retract your position.:)

Mischa
14-09-2009, 11:04 PM
I will have to say that fire eater is one of the most honest and up front people I know.
He would only support David in as far as it sat well with his integrity.

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 11:06 PM
It is not just the one person who you are voting for. There is the rest of the executive. I hope that the MCC will be voting for the persons who they consider most suitable in each and every position, and not as a block vote for one faction. There are some very talented people already on the Chess Victoria
executive. Hopefully more will stand, at least some of whom will be totally independant. We know who the present executive of Chess Victoria are. Perhaps David Cordover will indicate whether he is running a full slate of candidates and name who they are.

The MCC will vote as a bloc at the AGM inasmuch as when we vote we will pool all our votes into one. I can't say whether we'll vote for a whole ticket or individual members, but our primary concern will be for the best interests of the MCC.

Until we see candidates it's pointless to speculate:)

samantha
14-09-2009, 11:11 PM
Sorry sir.There are no question marks and no questions,one would assume.What was the "question"? Is supporting "chessguru" a slur?And the as yet unanswered question;are you D.Cordover's principle paid teaching employee?

Davidflude
14-09-2009, 11:14 PM
1. When was the last CV communication to clubs?

18.8.2009 Victorian Championship
16.8.2009 Melbourne Chess Club Transfer Tournament
13.8.2009 Box Hill Open Day


2. Does CV even have a method of distribution? Or do they just use the Box Hill email list?

Chess Victoria has its own mailing list. This is frequently used to send out information to clubs and chess players as indicated above. The contact point for sending out information is Trevor Stanning who is on the executive of chess Victoria. I carry out the task of sending out the emails but have no involvement in determining what should or should not be sent out.

The Box Hill list is totally separate to the Chess Victoria list.

Mischa
14-09-2009, 11:14 PM
Samantha you are very agressive for a new poster...lots of people find issues with David Cordover...why do you?

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 11:20 PM
Sorry sir.There are no question marks and no questions,one would assume.What was the "question"? Is supporting "chessguru" a slur?And the as yet unanswered question;are you D.Cordover's principle paid teaching employee?

What on earth are you talking about?

samantha
14-09-2009, 11:20 PM
Memo fireater et al.Is your integrity being attacked because you are working for "chessguru" aka D.Crodover?How did you make that conclusion?Please explain.

Mischa
14-09-2009, 11:23 PM
um....what is your agenda?

ChessGuru
14-09-2009, 11:26 PM
Perhaps David Cordover will indicate whether he is running a full slate of candidates and name who they are.

I have not named anyone at this stage. I would rather call for those who found the Vision that I offer exciting, or those who believe the skills I have could benefit the organisation to approach me and indicate their intention to support the change to a more progressive, professional and exciting organisation.

If any (or all) of the current executive members wished to do that, I would be happy for them to do so. I have never criticized THEM or indicated that they weren't "good people" for chess. I do think some of what they DO (or mostly don't DO) could be improved, but that isn't a criticism.

I have discussed this on another thread somewhere...

The problem with Chess Victoria is in its lack of Vision and lack of Leadership. The current and the past committees I believe have done the best they could with the resources available to them. It is not for us to blame someone for lack of knowledge or skill - but to congratulate them for standing up and being prepare to be involved when so few others are.

I don't want to REPLACE but to augment. If you read through my first posts and comments you'll see that...

Watto
14-09-2009, 11:28 PM
What on earth are you talking about?
lol, who knows. I like your style fireeater - a breath of fresh air.

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 11:29 PM
Memo fireater et al.Is your integrity being attacked because you are working for "chessguru" aka D.Crodover?How did you make that conclusion?Please explain.

Excuse me for losing the plot here, but you aren't making much sense.

In post 33 you suggested that it was "unsurprising" that I was supporting David in this thread as I am his "principle employee".

Except nowhere have you actually proved that I've supported or slurred anyone. I've stated my case as a committee member of MCC and we as a committee have had some issues with some CV decisions this year. But we have tried to work with CV this year.

It's all been insinuation on your part, which is somewhat hypocritical as that is what you have been accusing others of:rolleyes:

ChessGuru
14-09-2009, 11:31 PM
18.8.2009 Victorian Championship
16.8.2009 Melbourne Chess Club Transfer Tournament
13.8.2009 Box Hill Open Day


Sounds more like Melb. Chess Club and Box Hill Chess club are communicating.

:clap: for the Vic Championships email.... pity they rate it as less important than the school teams tournaments (which gets a home-page link, but to get to Vic Champs you need to delve 2 clicks deep) and give less than 2 months notice - but you're correct, it is CV communication.

samantha
14-09-2009, 11:34 PM
In ancient Vedic philosophy it is said (moving ahead!) that we are living in the "Kali Yuga".One definition is that this is an era where "those that tell the truth will be beaten and cursed,whereas those who lie and cheat will be rewarded and praised".:)

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 11:35 PM
lol, who knows. I like your style fireeater - a breath of fresh air.

Hi there watto, I am a wysiwyg type, except recently I had a haircut so you don't see as much wyg as you used to:lol:

Mischa
14-09-2009, 11:38 PM
Dear Samantha
I am guessing Box Hill

ChessGuru
14-09-2009, 11:43 PM
In ancient Vedic philosophy it is said (moving ahead!) that we are living in the "Kali Yuga".One definition is that this is an era where "those that tell the truth will be beaten and cursed,whereas those who lie and cheat will be rewarded and praised".:)

Then I will pray for flowers to be begot within flowers, and fruits within fruits, then will the Yuga come to an end. And the clouds will pour rain unseasonably when the end of the Yuga approaches.

Mischa
14-09-2009, 11:45 PM
and nuts, I like nuts

Carl Gorka
14-09-2009, 11:47 PM
And I shall long to be in St Kilda when the Saints come marching in.

Davidflude
15-09-2009, 12:39 AM
Sounds more like Melb. Chess Club and Box Hill Chess club are communicating.

David you are brilliant at obfuscating the issue.

You asked whether Chess Victoria ever communicates with members. That point was well and truly answered.

You asked whether Chess Victoria has its own mailing list. That point was well and truly answered.

You refer to the information on the Chess Victoria website when my posting was about Chess Victoria sending out details of the Championship by email.

Oh and it is not just Box Hill and Melbourne Chess Club. For example information about the Begonia was sent out by email.

Davidflude
15-09-2009, 10:15 AM
1. When was the last CV communication to clubs?


Today. This includes the date of the AGM. Clearly this is a preliminary announcement and further details will follow.

ChessGuru
15-09-2009, 06:19 PM
You asked whether Chess Victoria ever communicates with members. That point was well and truly answered.

You asked whether Chess Victoria has its own mailing list. That point was well and truly answered.

I just don't think that you can say that passing on a message from a club to other clubs counts as "CV communication". That's just passing on a message.

However, thank you for your very clear answers. I was clearly wrong in my assumptions - Chess Victoria has in fact been communicating well.

I retract my former statements about lack of communication - I was ignorant of their actions. I look forward to seeing their most recent email communication ...

samantha
15-09-2009, 10:25 PM
Dear D Crodover,sarcastic(?) responses merely make you seem....immature.Incidentally,is "samson" one of your lackeys?(!)Cheers,sam.:confused:

Garvinator
15-09-2009, 10:57 PM
Who is samantha?

Grant Szuveges
15-09-2009, 11:55 PM
Hi everyone

Id like to comment on a few things mentioned on this thread:

"samantha",
It is common knowledge among the Victorian chess scene that Carl Gorka is an employee of David Cordover, but why should he reveal who his employer is to you when you dont even reveal your identity??? For all I know you could be Samantha Fox, Samantha Stozur, Samantha Reilly or Samantha from "Bewitched"..... Your name may not even be Samantha...
Some people who post on this forum use their real names, such as myself, David Flude, Michael Baron, Kevin Bonham etc. Others use names such as "Fireater", "Macavity", "Just A Knight" etc but are very open about their true identities. Others such as yourself dont reveal their identities at all. So why on earth should anyone reveal their employment details to you. I personally believe that everyone should post on this forum under their real names - but that is only my personal opinion...

On communication,
Now Im speaking as the MCC President: The Melbourne Chess Club and the Box Hill Chess Club regularly communicate with eachother and have a good relationship. Just the other day myself and David Flude were exchanging fundraising ideas which can be beneficial to both clubs. On Sunday I was at the Box Hill Rookies Cup where Box Hill were kind enough to allow me to advertise our MCC Transfer Tournament (it's on next Sunday - check the relevant thread for details). The Box Hill Chess Club were particularly supportive of our Building Fund raffle earlier this year. As far as I am concerned, the relationship between the two clubs is in great shape and the communication lines between the two have not been better in a long time.

On Carl Gorka:
As the MCC president and as one of the MCCs 132 members, I have the utmost confidence in the integrity of Carl and in his ability to do the job at MCC which the members have entrusted him to do. When I was looking for people to form an MCC committee with, Carls was the name that was most highly recommended - and he was recommended by many many people from all different chess clubs. When he agreed to being part of it, I knew that the MCC had landed a very big signing (pardon the sporting terms). I also knew that with Carl on board, the MCC would be moving in the right direction fast - which it clearly has...

On David Cordover and CV:
The MCCs votes in the CV elections will be based on the best interests of the MCC. We have a duty to our members which will be upheld first and foremost. Anything less would be completely irresponsible. At this stage the only person that we know is running is David Cordover. We (the MCC) have had no confirmation about who (if anyone) is running against him and we wont be making a decision until we know who (from any "party") will be running for any position. We have had no confirmation about whether the current board will be standing for re-election and we dont know whether or not there will be a third group of people running either. For all we know, there may be 12 -15 people running for CV positions from 3 or 4 different camps... Until the MCC committee knows who will be running for what position, we wont be making a decision...

Garvinator
16-09-2009, 12:18 AM
For all we know, there may be 12 -15 people running for CV positions from 3 or 4 different camps... Until the MCC committee knows who will be running for what position, we wont be making a decision...
As an outsider to CV, I think this would be the best possible result, as long as it does not result in too much acrimony for who ever gets elected to each position.

ER
16-09-2009, 12:42 AM
IMHO it will be more like which Club has more control rather than which individual. There is talk about fervent discussions behind the scenes for possible combinations! There will be at least two different tickets with specific executive positions! Both tickets will include very well known and charismatic personalities! Oh I will no go into more details unless I am certain about situations! :) Fairer sex amply represented :) ok enough!

Kevin Bonham
16-09-2009, 12:56 AM
So what are the CV requirements for:

* being able to stand as a candidate?
* being nominated to stand as a candidate (ie who is entitled to nominate candidates)?

ER
16-09-2009, 01:03 AM
So what are the CV requirements for:

* being able to stand as a candidate?
* being nominated to stand as a candidate (ie who is entitled to nominate candidates)?

Hi Kev, this is from our constitution:


Election of Office Bearers

(21) Elections of office-bearers referred to in (g) and (h) of sub clause 8(16) to be elected at the Annual

General Meeting shall be in accordance with the following:-

(a) nominations shall be in writing, signed by two members of the Association and the candidate and

shall be delivered to and close with the General Meeting Chairman immediately prior to the start of

the meeting;

(b) at the close of nominations, the offices shall be dealt with in the order in which they are referred to in

sub-clause (16)(g);

(c) if, at the close of nominations, there is but one eligible candidate for any office referred to in subclause

(16)(g), that candidate shall become an office-bearer-elect in respect of that office;

(d) a person who has become an office-bearer-elect shall not be eligible to be a candidate for any other

office referred to in sub-clause (16)(g);

(e) if, at the close of nominations, there are insufficient eligible candidates for a position, nominations for

the position shall be received during the meeting;

(f) if the number of eligible candidates for an office exceeds the number required to fill it, a vote by

secret ballot shall be taken at the meeting;

(g) ballot papers shall show candidates' names in an order to be determined by lot;

(h) preferential voting shall be used;

(i) any equality in voting to elect office-bearers shall be resolved by lot; and

(j) office-bearers elected at the Annual General Meeting shall assume office at the adjournment of the

meeting or, if not adjourned, at the end of the meeting.

Garvinator
16-09-2009, 01:03 AM
So what are the CV requirements for:

* being able to stand as a candidate?
* being nominated to stand as a candidate (ie who is entitled to nominate candidates)?
Election of Office Bearers

(21) Elections of office-bearers referred to in (g) and (h) of sub clause 8(16) to be elected at the Annual General Meeting shall be in accordance with the following:-

(a) nominations shall be in writing, signed by two members of the Association and the candidate and shall be delivered to and close with the General Meeting Chairman immediately prior to the start of the meeting;

(b) at the close of nominations, the offices shall be dealt with in the order in which they are referred to in sub-clause (16)(g);

(c) if, at the close of nominations, there is but one eligible candidate for any office referred to in sub clause (16)(g), that candidate shall become an office-bearer-elect in respect of that office;

(d) a person who has become an office-bearer-elect shall not be eligible to be a candidate for any other office referred to in sub-clause (16)(g);

(e) if, at the close of nominations, there are insufficient eligible candidates for a position, nominations for the position shall be received during the meeting;

(f) if the number of eligible candidates for an office exceeds the number required to fill it, a vote by secret ballot shall be taken at the meeting;

(g) ballot papers shall show candidates' names in an order to be determined by lot;

(h) preferential voting shall be used;

(i) any equality in voting to elect office-bearers shall be resolved by lot; and

(j) office-bearers elected at the Annual General Meeting shall assume office at the adjournment of the meeting or, if not adjourned, at the end of the meeting.

Garvinator
16-09-2009, 01:04 AM
snap! but mine is formatted better :P ;)

ER
16-09-2009, 01:09 AM
and mine was in polite friendly form, addressing the person who inquired thus winning a friend!
Yours was like a Telstra Bill or something! :P
Plus I took care not to include any specific dates just in case Bill Gletsos is watching and then try to be an hour late and he 'll give you the force thingy! :P

Kevin Bonham
16-09-2009, 01:11 AM
Thankyou both. I see the constitution is online at http://chessvictoria.netfirms.com/cv_constitution.htm

So I take it it is not necessary for a person to be a "member" (which in CV parlance means delegates, life members and executive members) to run for office.

ER
16-09-2009, 01:16 AM
Thankyou both. I see the constitution is online at http://chessvictoria.netfirms.com/cv_constitution.htm

So I take it it is not necessary for a person to be a "member" (which in CV parlance means delegates, life members and executive members) to run for office.

Yes, I presume this is the case although I am not 100% sure about constitutional technicalities

Lakshman
16-09-2009, 05:57 AM
Hi everyone

Id like to comment on a few things mentioned on this thread:

"samantha",
It is common knowledge among the Victorian chess scene that Carl Gorka is an employee of David Cordover, but why should he reveal who his employer is to you when you dont even reveal your identity??? For all I know you could be Samantha Fox, Samantha Stozur, Samantha Reilly or Samantha from "Bewitched"..... Your name may not even be Samantha...
Some people who post on this forum use their real names, such as myself, David Flude, Michael Baron, Kevin Bonham etc. Others use names such as "Fireater", "Macavity", "Just A Knight" etc but are very open about their true identities. Others such as yourself dont reveal their identities at all. So why on earth should anyone reveal their employment details to you. I personally believe that everyone should post on this forum under their real names - but that is only my personal opinion...

On communication,
Now Im speaking as the MCC President: The Melbourne Chess Club and the Box Hill Chess Club regularly communicate with eachother and have a good relationship. Just the other day myself and David Flude were exchanging fundraising ideas which can be beneficial to both clubs. On Sunday I was at the Box Hill Rookies Cup where Box Hill were kind enough to allow me to advertise our MCC Transfer Tournament (it's on next Sunday - check the relevant thread for details). The Box Hill Chess Club were particularly supportive of our Building Fund raffle earlier this year. As far as I am concerned, the relationship between the two clubs is in great shape and the communication lines between the two have not been better in a long time.

On Carl Gorka:
As the MCC president and as one of the MCCs 132 members, I have the utmost confidence in the integrity of Carl and in his ability to do the job at MCC which the members have entrusted him to do. When I was looking for people to form an MCC committee with, Carls was the name that was most highly recommended - and he was recommended by many many people from all different chess clubs. When he agreed to being part of it, I knew that the MCC had landed a very big signing (pardon the sporting terms). I also knew that with Carl on board, the MCC would be moving in the right direction fast - which it clearly has...

On David Cordover and CV:
The MCCs votes in the CV elections will be based on the best interests of the MCC. We have a duty to our members which will be upheld first and foremost. Anything less would be completely irresponsible. At this stage the only person that we know is running is David Cordover. We (the MCC) have had no confirmation about who (if anyone) is running against him and we wont be making a decision until we know who (from any "party") will be running for any position. We have had no confirmation about whether the current board will be standing for re-election and we dont know whether or not there will be a third group of people running either. For all we know, there may be 12 -15 people running for CV positions from 3 or 4 different camps... Until the MCC committee knows who will be running for what position, we wont be making a decision...



Good Post Grant !!! :clap:

BTW, you have left me out Grant, I use my real name :)

Spiny Norman
16-09-2009, 06:09 AM
Yes, I presume this is the case although I am not 100% sure about constitutional technicalities
It seems to me that it is a rather odd setup, but maybe that's just me? In order to get the votes from the clubs, you would need to be a person of some standing in the chess community, so that would prevent complete outsiders from being elected.

MichaelBaron
16-09-2009, 10:07 AM
First of all, I must admit some posts make me smile :).

In particular, JAK's post saying ''I know whats going on..but i am not telling you just yet"

Some posts make me sad: Samantha, are you Froggy's girlfriend? You and him appear to be having a lot in common from cowardly hiding your identity to making personal insults due to inability to respond to constructive criticism in a civilized manner.

As for serious business there is one particular point that Grant has made in his latest posting that I too would like to emphasize on.

This should not be about chess politics or a power struggle. Our chess scene is ridiculously small and money-free. There is nothing to fight for in terms of power. Those who want to be elected just to have a business card saying ''CV executive'' must be having an inferiority complex multiplied by lack of other opportunities to make themselves known even to a small community such as our chess community.

As Grant pointed out, MCC will be voting in accordance with its best interests, and so should all other clubs! CV should be working for us rather than us working for CV! Therefore, clubs should vote for a person who they believe will work for them best!

Kevin Bonham
16-09-2009, 12:15 PM
It seems to me that it is a rather odd setup, but maybe that's just me? In order to get the votes from the clubs, you would need to be a person of some standing in the chess community, so that would prevent complete outsiders from being elected.

The TCA has a similar setup and I think it has had it for several decades. To have a vote in the election of the next year's officebearers you need to be either a club delegate or an existing officebearer. Life members don't have a vote.

The problem with this in a small place like Tasmania is that it was all very well when there were heaps of clubs and few exec members, but now the exec members outnumber the delegates, which creates an in-theory risk of a hostile exec getting in and perpetuating itself forever and thus creating a constitutional crisis. Of course, if it did that, the clubs could just disaffiliate and start a new association.

ER
16-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Hi Michael, you say...


First of all, I must admit some posts make me smile :).

In particular, JAK's post saying ''I know whats going on..but i am not telling you just yet"



I say


Oh I will no go into more details unless I am certain about situations!

Conclusion:

:P:P:P: LOL :owned: :lol:

Froggy
16-09-2009, 01:27 PM
First of all, I must admit some posts make me smile :).

Some posts make me sad: Samantha, are you Froggy's girlfriend? You and him appear to be having a lot in common from cowardly hiding your identity to making personal insults due to inability to respond to constructive criticism in a civilized manner.
Hi Michael,

When you find out who Samantha is please don't forget to introduce us as if she is my new girlfriend we should do something about it soon:owned:

With regards to "personal insults", you might have noticed that the only person I may have made personal insults towards is yourself. Draw your own conclusion..

As far as responding to "constructive criticism", I thought I had always responded to any comments that were worth answering.

As far as "hiding my identity", well, get over it. Go spend your time on a forum that requires use of real name or give up whining.

Your friend,

Froggy

MichaelBaron
16-09-2009, 03:11 PM
Hi Michael,

When you find out who Samantha is please don't forget to introduce us as if she is my new girlfriend we should do something about it soon:owned:

With regards to "personal insults", you might have noticed that the only person I may have made personal insults towards is yourself. Draw your own conclusion..

As far as responding to "constructive criticism", I thought I had always responded to any comments that were worth answering.

As far as "hiding my identity", well, get over it. Go spend your time on a forum that requires use of real name or give up whining.

Your friend,

Froggy

Some Frogs can never become princesses ....but may be Samantha can give it a go ;).

My conclusion is that you do not like me...but do I care :whistle:

As for hiding your identity..it is a sign of weakness :). Or well, frogs can not be expected to be tough enough mentally to confront humans face to face :):owned:

Carl Gorka
16-09-2009, 10:51 PM
Hi everyone

Id like to comment on a few things mentioned on this thread:


On Carl Gorka:
As the MCC president and as one of the MCCs 132 members, I have the utmost confidence in the integrity of Carl and in his ability to do the job at MCC which the members have entrusted him to do. When I was looking for people to form an MCC committee with, Carls was the name that was most highly recommended - and he was recommended by many many people from all different chess clubs. When he agreed to being part of it, I knew that the MCC had landed a very big signing (pardon the sporting terms). I also knew that with Carl on board, the MCC would be moving in the right direction fast - which it clearly has...

It's been a pleasure to be part of the MCC's resurgence, and part of such a hard working and conscientious committee.


On David Cordover and CV:
The MCCs votes in the CV elections will be based on the best interests of the MCC. We have a duty to our members which will be upheld first and foremost. Anything less would be completely irresponsible. At this stage the only person that we know is running is David Cordover. We (the MCC) have had no confirmation about who (if anyone) is running against him and we wont be making a decision until we know who (from any "party") will be running for any position. We have had no confirmation about whether the current board will be standing for re-election and we dont know whether or not there will be a third group of people running either. For all we know, there may be 12 -15 people running for CV positions from 3 or 4 different camps... Until the MCC committee knows who will be running for what position, we wont be making a decision...

Careful Grant, you're saying exactly the same as I did, so you can expect a verbal spraying:D

ChessGuru
20-09-2009, 10:25 PM
1 Yes, the Chess Victoria contribution to the Australian Schools Finals comes from collections in the State finals. For 2009 we contributed $1640.
The organiser of the ASTC in fact has around $6400 for the national event which lasts a couple of days.
2 The venue costs used for the State final are partially covered by State Final receipts.
3 I am a volunteer; your presumption I am a paid official is false.

Thanks Trevor for your comments (quoted above) on my blog.

1. Sorry, I'm a little unclear. Is the $1640 the annual contribution to the ACF School Finals or is it an additional amount because it is being run in Victoria? Has CV contributed anything (other than your compulsory contribution) because it is being run in Victoria?

My impression (and I could well be wrong) was that the fees you collected ($75 per event) from preliminary events through the year covered the ACF contribution.

Have you budgeted for your $3000+ surplus from the upcoming Primary Finals? If not and it is a windfall - do you have plans for the surplus?

2. Venue costs? I thought that CV paid an annual usage fee to Box Hill Chess Club to have a CV headquarters? Is there an additional fee per-use? I am sure other clubs are interested to know how this works....

Did you approach MCC (for example) or offer other clubs the opportunity to host the CV schools finals? Particularly if there is a 'venue cost' contribution which was available?

Even if there was no contribution available - perhaps MCC or another club would have liked to host this prestigious event. Does BHCC have first right of refusal to host all CV events?

3. We all appreciate your volunteer efforts. Do you feel that it is fair that you are a volunteer and Sandler isn't? Why is it that what is good for one executive member is not good enough for another?

Are you not as competent as Sandler to run a 60 player tournament so didn't feel you could accept financial compensation? Or is Sandler not as committed to CV as you are, so you need to pay the Chess Victoria VP to be present at the State Finals? I don't think either of those explanations could be true. Perhaps you can explain why this imbalanced situation exists?

Will the CV President be paid to appear at the Victorian Championships?

If an executive member is able to get paid for their work on a CV activity is there a process through which they are picked? eg. If CV needed a paid arbiter for a School Teams Day why wasn't it offered to other potential arbiters? Perhaps there was someone who'd have done it for nothing?

You have some other school finals coming up - have you tendered out the Paid Positions (or are they being 'gifted' to Executive Committee members again?)

What is the 'going rate' for an arbiter at a CV School-Finals?

Looking forward to the continued transparency and effective communication from CV. Thank you.

Denis_Jessop
21-09-2009, 08:08 PM
I should make clear that Trevor is totally wrong when he suggests that the $6400 levied by the ACF in relation to the Schools teams finals is used for that event.

The fee for schools teams was introduced in 2002 or thereabouts at $3 per team taking part and eligible to qualify for the finals. For various reasons that are not presently relevant the fee structure was later altered to a levy on State Associations on to the formula that apportions payments according to State population.

At no time was the amount raised meant to be used only for the ASTC. In fact, in response to a question from me to ACF President Graeme Gardiner at a National Conference early on it was said that the money was to go into general ACF funds. My view and that of some others has always been that the money should be used for Junior Chess. That view currently prevails and the $6400 and like annual levies are put into the Junior Chess Fund and are calculated on the basis of the amount needed for the AusJCL for its activities in the coming year.

DJ

Bill Gletsos
21-09-2009, 10:06 PM
David if you are elected CV President is it your plan/intention to have CV abandon the ACF rating system and instead funnel the revenue stream to your Chess World rating service.

ChessGuru
21-09-2009, 11:30 PM
David if you are elected CV President is it your plan/intention to have CV abandon the ACF rating system and instead funnel the revenue stream to your Chess World rating service.

Bill, that's the silliest thing I ever heard! :lol:

Firstly, the Chess World rating system is free and has been on offer to junior clubs and events (free of charge) around Australia for some time.

Secondly, even if I wanted to try something like that I'd need the support of an executive committee, clubs and the majority of players in Victoria -- if you think that the majority of Victorian players aren't happy with your rating system then that's your concern, not mine!

Thirdly, if a better ratings option for chess players in Australia came along then why wouldn't you be ENCOURAGING them to take it up? If FIDE could provide a better ratings service I would see it as the ACF Ratings Officer's Moral Duty to encourage the ACF to make a change.

I am offering my services as President to lead Victoria in the direction THEY want to go. I will challenge players and clubs to think differently and more expansively - but at the end of the day I cannot and do not want to force anyone to change....all change is self-change; I will just be a guide.

Victorian clubs will decide for themselves where they want the association to end up. Maybe you should ask Victorian clubs if they are going to scrap the ACF ratings system and save $3.50 per player, per tournament? I'll certainly tell people that it is an OPTION -- that is my mission; to get people THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX. Nothing that has been done before HAS TO be done again -- anything and everything is possible. I'll also point out that abandoning the ACF is a possibility -- that doesn't mean I am ENCOURAGING it or forcing it down anyone's throat. It is important to CONSIDER it -- then perhaps we'll have some higher expectations of the ACF and encourage the ACF to make some positive changes.

I wonder if many people realise this important point. I am throwing a lot of ideas around -- they are just IDEAS. Once I am President I won't be TELLING people what to do...I will be calling for more and new ideas and yes, making suggestions, but ultimately we'll probably test out 20 or 50 ideas that will fail. And we'll suggest probably 200 ideas which never even get tested....that's the nature of improvement.

When the ACF updates their ratings system I will be there to offer the system Chess World has developed on a commercial basis. The "ratings system" is actually a combination of two things;
a) A ratings calculation formula (the maths)
b) Ratings functionality, basically a front-end user display. How tournament organisers get the ratings to seed players in tournaments and how players find out for themselves what their rating is.

If you believe that the "maths" you have created for the ACF ratings system is working well then great, sounds like a partnership with Chess World is possible - - Chess World has a functioning and user-friendly user-display and automation process. I'd be very happy to talk about a partnership if you're interested...

I think the ACF is in a very dangerous position - without ratings the ACF doesn't exist. FIDE is already down to 1200 and before long will be offering universal ratings. Chess World has developed a great front-end and streamlined processing system (the maths is just straight from FIDE's Elo system).... it won't be long before chess player in Australia start expecting the FRONT END to be more powerful; and perhaps they'll be prepared to sacrifice the PURE MATHS to get it.... at that time ACF ratings may well become defunct -- either FIDE will take over or a commercial organisation - -there is also one in the US which is making good progress - such as Chess World will have a service which chess players would rather use.

Bill Gletsos
22-09-2009, 12:10 AM
Bill, that's the silliest thing I ever heard! :lol:
But you implied it yourself in your post here (http://www.chesschat.org/showpost.php?p=252193&postcount=55).


So what's the ACF's long-term plan for when someone comes along and tells everyone:

Hey, I've got a great new rating system:
Events rated immediately (no more waiting 3 months)
Easy to understand formula, transparent system!
Fully automated, no more ratings officers
Easy to find ratings (on a website), plus PLAYER STATISTICS
Full player history available online
Only costs 10c per player/game!
Don't lose your rating - all ratings carried over from previous ACF system

Firstly, the Chess World rating system is free and has been on offer to junior clubs and events (free of charge) around Australia for some time.Yes and like any good businessman once you have them hooked then you add in a fee.

Secondly, even if I wanted to try something like that I'd need the support of an executive committee, clubs and the majority of players in Victoria -- if you think that the majority of Victorian players aren't happy with your rating system then that's your concern, not mine!

Thirdly, if a better ratings option for chess players in Australia came along then why wouldn't you be ENCOURAGING them to take it up? If FIDE could provide a better ratings service I would see it as the ACF Ratings Officer's Moral Duty to encourage the ACF to make a change.Your system isnt better.

I am offering my services as President to lead Victoria in the direction THEY want to go.Seems more like the direction YOU want to go.

I will challenge players and clubs to think differently and more expansively - but at the end of the day I cannot and do not want to force anyone to change....all change is self-change; I will just be a guide.Sure you will.

Victorian clubs will decide for themselves where they want the association to end up. Maybe you should ask Victorian clubs if they are going to scrap the ACF ratings system and save $3.50 per player, per tournament?You cannot even get simple facts straight and are just spreading misinformation.
The ACF does not get $3.50 per per player, per tournament. The typical 7 round event is only $2.10 and even an 11 round tournament only costs $3.30.

I'll certainly tell people that it is an OPTION -- that is my mission; to get people THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX. Nothing that has been done before HAS TO be done again -- anything and everything is possible. I'll also point out that abandoning the ACF is a possibility -- that doesn't mean I am ENCOURAGING it or forcing it down anyone's throat.Well you could also tell them that they would be the only state outside the ACF System.
If CV did not rate any ACF games then no Victorian event would be FIDE rated.
Also if CV did not rate any ACF games then they could have no events in the ACF Grand Prix.

I wonder if many people realise this important point. I am throwing a lot of ideas around -- they are just IDEAS. Once I am President I won't be TELLING people what to doAnd pigs might fly.

When the ACF updates their ratings system I will be there to offer the system Chess World has developed on a commercial basis. The "ratings system" is actually a combination of two things;
a) A ratings calculation formula (the maths)
b) Ratings functionality, basically a front-end user display. How tournament organisers get the ratings to seed players in tournaments and how players find out for themselves what their rating is.

If you believe that the "maths" you have created for the ACF ratings system is working well then great, sounds like a partnership with Chess World is possible - - Chess World has a functioning and user-friendly user-display and automation process. I'd be very happy to talk about a partnership if you're interested...Don't hold your breath.

I think the ACF is in a very dangerous position - without ratings the ACF doesn't exist. FIDE is already down to 1200 and before long will be offering universal ratings.FIDE ratings are rubbish as FIDE dropped their rating floor and will only get worse as the floor continues to drop and with the inclusion of more juniors. Of course you are up the creek without a paddle if the floor does not go below 1000 as you cannot handle the majority of the younger juniors.

Chess World has developed a great front-end and streamlined processing system (the maths is just straight from FIDE's Elo system).... it won't be long before chess player in Australia start expecting the FRONT END to be more powerful; and perhaps they'll be prepared to sacrifice the PURE MATHS to get it.... at that time ACF ratings may well become defunct -- either FIDE will take over or a commercial organisation - -there is also one in the US which is making good progress - such as Chess World will have a service which chess players would rather use.Looking pretty may impress some but if the figures are rubbish - well as they say you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

ChessGuru
22-09-2009, 12:57 PM
But you implied it yourself in your post here
No, I said "someone" -- there are at least 2 businesses (not Chess World) who are charging for a rating service and doing quite a good job. Plus FIDE.

It should be part of the ACF risk management strategy to consider these possibilities. I am trying to help you - I'm not the enemy.


Your system isnt better.
Got me there.

(psst, I never said it was; but you know what...one day someone WILL have a better system).


Well you could also tell them that they would be the only state outside the ACF System. If CV did not rate any ACF games then no Victorian event would be FIDE rated. Also if CV did not rate any ACF games then they could have no events in the ACF Grand Prix.

I guess it would be a game of chicken. Would the ACF change if Victoria pulled out (what if a second or third state followed suit)?

I wonder what happens when someone calls the ACF bluff... according to the FIDE Statutes:

2.1. Members of FIDE are national chess federations which have principal authority over chess activities in their own countries

So that would tend to imply that if a couple of states pulled out from the ACF then perhaps it could be argued that "principal authority" wasn't in force. Get a provisional membership for 5 years and see what happens. :D


FIDE ratings are rubbish as FIDE dropped their rating floor and will only get worse as the floor continues to drop and with the inclusion of more juniors.

Is that the ACF Ratings Officer Official Position?

FIDE Statue:

2.4. ... Moreover they [members] are obliged to support FIDE actively in its chess activities.

Seems like the ACF is doing quite the opposite. Hmm...I wonder if that would help the case for an alternative Australian Federation? :hmm:


Looking pretty may impress some but if the figures are rubbish - well as they say you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

I guess you are right. Technical quality is much more important than 'packaging' ... the technically best product ALWAYS wins in the free market economy. What do they say about building a better mouse-trap?

Luckily it doesn't make a difference to me; I have no intention of abandoning the ACF system.