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View Full Version : Victorian Junior Masters - what about ACF ratings?



Davidflude
26-08-2009, 10:25 AM
Chess Kids is organizing a Victorian Junior Masters for the school holidays.

Details are attached.

It looks great.

My only reservations are:-

1) that it is to be submitted for ACF ratings as well as FIDE ratings.

2) that Chess Victoria and the clubs have been notified somewhat belatedly.

3) At least on of the players listed may not be available. What is the procedure for selecting replacements. I suspect the Melbourne Chess Club and Whitehorse Junior Chess would have a better idea who the underrated juniors who could fit into this tournament are then Chess Victoria or Chess Kids.

Bill Gletsos
26-08-2009, 10:45 AM
The ACF will not permit an event to be FIDE rated if it is not ACF rated.

ChessGuru
26-08-2009, 11:24 AM
Chess Kids is organizing a Victorian Junior Masters for the school holidays.

Details are attached.

It looks great.

My only reservations are:-

1) that it is to be submitted for ACF ratings as well as FIDE ratings.

2) that Chess Victoria and the clubs have been notified somewhat belatedly.

3) At least on of the players listed may not be available. What is the procedure for selecting replacements. I suspect the Melbourne Chess Club and Whitehorse Junior Chess would have a better idea who the underrated juniors who could fit into this tournament are then Chess Victoria or Chess Kids.

1) Ratings isn't a deal breaker at all - if it has to be ACF rated then fine, no problems.

2) Would have loved to give more notice, but only thought of the idea 10 days ago.... now it's back to CV/clubs to see how quick they can move.

3) Replacements for unavailable players is no problem, we just go down the ratings list....or cut back to 8 player RR if need be.

ChessGuru
26-08-2009, 11:28 AM
File attached - smaller size as requested....

Bill Gletsos
26-08-2009, 01:02 PM
Although you say in your proposal "Any surplus/loss will be retained/covered by Chess Victoria" it seems from your budget that you are asking CV to run this event at a loss as their $500 contribution is really just to offset the deficit in your budget.

Real income excluding CV Contribution is $1200, expenditure is $1700

If the correct FIDE fee plus ACF fees are included the expenditure increases to $1802.

So CV is looking at incurring a $602 loss.

BTW what you call the FIDE rating fee is actually the FIDE registration fee and for round robins with an average rating of 2300 or under the FIDE registration fee is 50 euro. On the current exchange rate that is around $85.

Also the budget does not include ACF admin fees.

The ACF admin fee to ACF rate a 10 player round robin is $27.
The ACF FIDE admin fee to FIDE rated a 10 player round robin is $50.
So the total ACF admin fees for this event are $77.

MichaelBaron
26-08-2009, 04:23 PM
Although you say in your proposal "Any surplus/loss will be retained/covered by Chess Victoria" it seems from your budget that you are asking CV to run this event at a loss as their $500 contribution is really just to offset the deficit in your budget.

Real income excluding CV Contribution is $1200, expenditure is $1700

If the correct FIDE fee plus ACF fees are included the expenditure increases to $1802.

So CV is looking at incurring a $602 loss.

BTW what you call the FIDE rating fee is actually the FIDE registration fee and for round robins with an average rating of 2300 or under the FIDE registration fee is 50 euro. On the current exchange rate that is around $85.

Also the budget does not include ACF admin fees.

The ACF admin fee to ACF rate a 10 player round robin is $27.
The ACF FIDE admin fee to FIDE rated a 10 player round robin is $50.
So the total ACF admin fees for this event are $77.

SO ACF is charging $50 just for processing application to Fide? Wha a lovely income stream :)

Kevin Bonham
26-08-2009, 04:48 PM
SO ACF is charging $50 just for processing application to Fide? Wha a lovely income stream :)

No, because the money goes straight out the other end to FIDE to pay what they charge the ACF. It is not an ACF income stream at all - the ACF is just avoiding making a loss.

ChessGuru
26-08-2009, 05:00 PM
Although you say in your proposal "Any surplus/loss will be retained/covered by Chess Victoria" it seems from your budget that you are asking CV to run this event at a loss as their $500 contribution is really just to offset the deficit in your budget.


True - and $100 ends up in my pocket and over $1000 ends up in the pockets of the 3 best players. So really I'm asking CV to make a donation to the best juniors in the state.

But I'm also happy if CV wants to cap their contribution at a fixed amount, then I'll cover any shortfall/surplus myself.

I just want this to happen.



The ACF admin fee to ACF rate a 10 player round robin is $27.
The ACF FIDE admin fee to FIDE rated a 10 player round robin is $50.
So the total ACF admin fees for this event are $77.

No worries...happy to pay it.

Can you please pass this to the next ACF meeting:

Dear ACF,

We'd like to run a Victorian Junior Masters event - this is a rare opportunity for the top juniors in Victoria to compete against each other at long-time controls.

One of the most important aspects of improvement is peer groups and we feel it is critical to foster a strong relationship/rivalry between our top Juniors. This event is designed to do just that; which ultimately will help create the next IM's and GM's for Australia.

We also have the support of many of Australia's top players who are donating their time to analyse games with the juniors.

As the peak body of Australian chess I am sure you are supportive of this project. We are seeking sponsorship (already we have clubs, state, individual players and business collaborating) and was hoping to press upon you for a $100 donation to the running costs of this event.

Yours sincerely,

David Cordover
Event organiser

Froggy
26-08-2009, 05:18 PM
1) 3) Replacements for unavailable players is no problem, we just go down the ratings list....or cut back to 8 player RR if need be.

Why not just include some of the players on the current list that have a ? after the rating ??
You seem to have only included ! or !! players in your initial list..

Libby2
26-08-2009, 05:18 PM
SO ACF is charging $50 just for processing application to Fide? Wha a lovely income stream :)

Not to worry - it may well be 2 1/2 years before the ACF will invoice you for it so they either -

don't need the money OR
take a while to remember they need the money OR
only just thought up the idea OR

etc :rolleyes:

Kevin Bonham
26-08-2009, 08:16 PM
Further to my reply to Michael above I suggest anyone with an interest in the ACF FIDE admin fee issue check out Greg Canfell's reply to a similarly inaccurate (to put it mildly) comment by Shaun Press in Shaun's blog here (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4459360717297142573&postID=3274296887467831679)

ChessGuru
26-08-2009, 10:13 PM
Not to worry - it may well be 2 1/2 years before the ACF will invoice you for it so they either -

don't need the money OR
take a while to remember they need the money OR
only just thought up the idea OR

etc :rolleyes:

The emails must move quicker in the ACT -- August 6, 2009 I received an invoice for a 2003 event.

:wall:

Desmond
27-08-2009, 09:03 AM
As the peak body of Australian chess I am sure you are supportive of this project. We are seeking sponsorship (already we have clubs, state, individual players and business collaborating) and was hoping to press upon you for a $100 donation to the running costs of this event.
Surely you are taking the piss

ChessGuru
27-08-2009, 11:14 AM
Surely you are taking the piss

Why do you say that? Surely the ACF has an interest in developing juniors and having events such as this happen? $100 is a tiny amount of money...

Plus because the event runs they are going to get $77 in fees - so it ACTUALLY only costs them $23!!

If you ask Subway for $10,000 sponsorship they'll probably turn you down...if you ask them for $10,000 in subs they'll much more likely say yes because it only costs them $1000.

Even better; if you promise to order $2000 in subs from them if they give you $10,000 in sponsorship (free subs) then they are certainly going to go for it. Why? Because the $2000 you spend gives them $1800 profit, the $10,000 they give you only costs them $1000 - - so not only do they get the Sponsorship Value of $10,000, but they make $800 at the same time!

I'm sure the ACF wouldn't like to be seen to be NOT supporting juniors -- and a $100 donation is pretty minimal....

Desmond
27-08-2009, 11:58 AM
Why do you say that? Surely the ACF has an interest in developing juniors and having events such as this happen? $100 is a tiny amount of money...

Plus because the event runs they are going to get $77 in fees - so it ACTUALLY only costs them $23!!

If you ask Subway for $10,000 sponsorship they'll probably turn you down...if you ask them for $10,000 in subs they'll much more likely say yes because it only costs them $1000.

Even better; if you promise to order $2000 in subs from them if they give you $10,000 in sponsorship (free subs) then they are certainly going to go for it. Why? Because the $2000 you spend gives them $1800 profit, the $10,000 they give you only costs them $1000 - - so not only do they get the Sponsorship Value of $10,000, but they make $800 at the same time!

I'm sure the ACF wouldn't like to be seen to be NOT supporting juniors -- and a $100 donation is pretty minimal....
Firstly why would you ask in this forum rather than send a letter directly. Seems to me that the answer is that you are grandstanding rather than making a serious request. I assume Bill Gletsos is not your personal secretary to be mailing letters for you.

I'm sure ACF would like to be encouraging all events to take place. Maybe they should rate them all for free and throw organisers a few bucks each time as well. Only question is where will this money come from if no one pays for ratings?

Your request comes at the eleventh hour; is there an ACF meeting between now and the event?

Bill Gletsos
28-08-2009, 06:14 PM
Can you please pass this to the next ACF meetingThere is clearly no need for me to do so as you emailed the ACF President with your request at the same time as you posted it here.

Desmond
28-08-2009, 11:08 PM
Grandstanding..

ChessGuru
29-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Your request comes at the eleventh hour; is there an ACF meeting between now and the event?

How functional can an organisation be if in order to spend $23 they need to have a meeting of 6 people?

Or does it need a full council meeting with 12 people?



I'm sure ACF would like to be encouraging all events to take place. Maybe they should rate them all for free and throw organisers a few bucks each time as well.

Now you're thinking! Good work Boris...that's what I'm talking about. Thinking outside the box.

What a great idea ... the ACF could provide FREE ratings for every event the first time it is run! This is an investment in the future... encourage more events to be run so that more money comes in next year... plus supports first time events... brilliant.


Only question is where will this money come from if no one pays for ratings?

Now you're asking the right questions too! You have made a Great Leap - congratulations. :D

I don't know who you are or if you are on the ACF, but if you can continue to demonstrate this kind of thinking I'll certainly vote for you! :clap:

Basil
29-08-2009, 12:04 PM
David, you have allowed yourself the luxury of answering the questions but not clearly identifying whether you're being sarcastic or not. If you're being sarcastic, then of course you haven't offered offered an answer worthy of a candidate trying to avoid the various tags floating around.

Therefore ...


What a great idea ... the ACF could provide FREE ratings for every event the first time it is run! This is an investment in the future... encourage more events to be run so that more money comes in next year... plus supports first time events... brilliant.
Is this really part of your platform? If so, it hardly addresses Boris' point. It appears you have used sarcasm to avoid a question and then added a caveat about "for first time events".

Do you really think this idea would promote chess?

To me your answer is a wriggle - and a concern.

If not part of your platform, perhaps answer the question again lest some voters actually think you have answered the question.


Now you're asking the right questions too! You have made a Great Leap - congratulations. :D
A leap from where? Again definitely not an answer. I hope that when in office your reporting and accounting standards are of a far higher standard - for the players of Victoria's sake.


I don't know who you are or if you are on the ACF, but if you can continue to demonstrate this kind of thinking I'll certainly vote for you! :clap:
Boris' identity is common enough among chess administrators. He has served as his state's secretary - didn't require your vote!

Your real answers ... ?

Davidflude
29-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Will ACF be providing digital boards and Monroi recording devices for the Junior Masters?

that Caesar guy
29-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Will ACF be providing digital boards and Monroi recording devices for the Junior Masters?
They should, it would be very helpful, and give it a more proffesional look.

JM

ChessGuru
29-08-2009, 01:36 PM
David, you have allowed yourself the luxury of answering the questions but not clearly identifying whether you're being sarcastic or not.

Genuine. Why would you think I was being sarcastic?


Is this really part of your platform?

My platform is primarily about getting a clear Vision and Plan. Secondly it is trying to encourage people to think differently; getting some fresh, challenging, new ideas floating around.

I don't have enough knowledge of the current state of affairs to be offering concrete action plans at this stage. I do think it is about asking the right questions -- and Boris' question was a good one. I don't pretend that I am the one with all the answers; but once the right questions get asked...


If so, it hardly addresses Boris' point. It appears you have used sarcasm to avoid a question and then added a caveat about "for first time events".

It was quite clear that Boris' point was valid - if the ACF's only revenue is from ratings then they can't possibly provide free ratings for all events. I just made a small logical step to assume that if the ACF's only revenue was from ratings then they'd be wanting to ensure MORE EVENTS get run (more revenue).

It is a common thing to find organisations investing in the future - or offering 'loss leaders' to create activity with long-term benefits.


Do you really think this idea would promote chess?

There are a few more questions you need to ask before we can answer that, and probably trials would be the best way of testing.:
a) What is the average life of a tournament (if it is 10 years then yes, sacrificing one year revenue to get 9 in return would probably be a good idea).
b) Is the 'free ratings' offer one which would attract new events (you'd have to ask if there are any other challenges facing first-time events)
c) How many new events are being created each year at the moment (so what is the cost of implementation)
etc etc


A leap from where? Again definitely not an answer. I hope that when in office your reporting and accounting standards are of a far higher standard - for the players of Victoria's sake.

A leap from the current ACF position of "no new ideas please" -- take a look at Gletsos seemingly inflexible and dogmatic approach to ratings from earlier in this thread...

When I'm in office I will not be in a position to be reporting or accounting...I believe those will be done by other team members. My job will be to challenge thinking, ask questions, stimulate change, create vision, facilitate planning etc...


Boris' identity is common enough among chess administrators. He has served as his state's secretary - didn't require your vote!

I am not a chess administrator, so have no idea who he is -- I was offering a genuine gesture of support for someone who it seemed had come up with a novel, fresh and exciting idea.

Or perhaps he was being sarcastic and I naively took the idea on face value? If so, good lesson for all those reading this -- take the thing which you think is the stupidest, most wild, outrageous idea and chew it over a bit, look from a different angle, combine some together - it may just be possible.

Desmond
29-08-2009, 02:54 PM
How functional can an organisation be if in order to spend $23 they need to have a meeting of 6 people?

Or does it need a full council meeting with 12 people?Perhaps they do decide these things over email, but you were the one who asked Bill to present your letter at "the next ACF meeting".


Now you're thinking! Good work Boris...that's what I'm talking about. Thinking outside the box.

What a great idea ... the ACF could provide FREE ratings for every event the first time it is run! This is an investment in the future... encourage more events to be run so that more money comes in next year... plus supports first time events... brilliant.Not sure how this sits with your original saying that the event was worth sponsorship because it was "rare". If it is held every year is it still rare? Are all annual events also rare?


Now you're asking the right questions too! You have made a Great Leap - congratulations. :D Not sure what the great leap was, if you reduce the ACF's income and increase its expenditure the money has to come from somewhere else.


I don't know who you are or if you are on the ACF, but if you can continue to demonstrate this kind of thinking I'll certainly vote for you! :clap:I'm Brian Thomas, you may recall we had some correspondance when I was involved with the CAQ.

ChessGuru
29-08-2009, 03:36 PM
Not sure what the great leap was, if you reduce the ACF's income and increase its expenditure the money has to come from somewhere else.

Yes! I like your way of thinking.... rather than discount something out of hand you are asking questions about HOW we can make it happen. This is the sort of attitude of possibility that chess needs more of. I hope you come back to chess admin again one day soon.


I'm Brian Thomas, you may recall we had some correspondance when I was involved with the CAQ.

Ah, yes - our bid to run the CAQ interschool events... Pleased to be corresponding again.

Kevin Bonham
29-08-2009, 07:00 PM
How functional can an organisation be if in order to spend $23 they need to have a meeting of 6 people?

Or does it need a full council meeting with 12 people?

The ACF can resolve most things by email voting between meetings any time it needs to (some constitutional and budgetary type matters can only be addressed at National Conference). But email voting is an extremely messy way to make decisions because you only need one badly worded motion that one person dislikes the wording of and you can be plunged into weeks of amendments and other nonsense. So usually these matters that arise between meetings are dealt with first by the Executive by email, and then referred to the full Council for a vote based on a considered wording if considered necessary.

I've got an obvious conflict of interest on this one so I cannot vote on it and am taking no role in the decision-making at ACF level.

ER
29-08-2009, 07:08 PM
... an extremely messy way to make decisions because you only need one badly worded motion that one person dislikes the wording of and you can be plunged into weeks of amendments and other nonsense...
lol reminds me of the Senate!

ChessGuru
29-08-2009, 08:55 PM
The ACF can resolve most things by email voting between meetings any time it needs to (some constitutional and budgetary type matters can only be addressed at National Conference).

I would have thought that trusting each exec. member to make binding decisions or spend money up to a certain amount would be a somewhat more effective structure. Delegate some responsibility....after all even if it only takes 10 minutes to negotiate, between 6 people that $23 budget item has now cost 1 man-hour!

Time has got to be the most precious resource. It should be treated as such.

ChessGuru
31-08-2009, 12:00 PM
Did you see another thread which suggests the ACF has $80,000 in the bank!

And we're quibbling over $23. :doh:

Rhubarb
04-09-2009, 12:34 AM
ChessGuru, did you want this tournament registered for FIDE rating (commencing September 21 according to your proposal)?

It would be deregistered if you didn't agree to have it ACF rated as well, but I'm just trying to keep your options open...

Greg Canfell

Rhubarb
21-09-2009, 11:55 PM
I take it the plans to have this tournament FIDE-rated were abandoned (not having heard anything from anyone since I last posted).

Davidflude
23-09-2009, 10:49 AM
I gather that this tournament is now under way.

I have a few questions. These are in no way a criticism of the event or organizers.

1) Are details of the tournament being shown on the web including times of games, dates and venues?

2) Are games being shown live on the web?

3) Are spectators welcome at the venues? I am prepared to play a visitors fee at the Melbourne Chess Club.

4) will the games be available in PGN format?

5) will the games be sent to "the week in chess"

6) will the games be submitted for ACF ratings.
6) who are the players in the tournament.

Davidflude
23-09-2009, 01:25 PM
I have been informed by Grant Sauviges that this tournament has been cancelled.

ChessGuru
23-09-2009, 01:51 PM
I have been informed by Grant Szuveges that this tournament has been cancelled.

Correct - not enough players were available to run the FIDE rated event as planned. Also didn't hear back from ACF, CV, Box Hill and a few others we approached for support.

Good news is we have modified the format and will still be running an exciting event - yes, with spectator opportunities. I'll post final details here shortly.

ChessGuru
25-09-2009, 08:50 PM
The Junior Masters tournament will be played in the Experimedia room at the State Library of Victoria in a knock-out format with great opportunities for spectators to watch and get involved in activities, coaching and chess on game consoles.

Meet some of Australia's best chess players; young and old. Get involved and learn more about the game, play some games, use the giant chess set, or just watch the Masters in action. You could even have your game broadcast on the Giant Screen (6m x 4.5m)!!

Plus free tours of the Chess Collection (one of the world's best collections of chess books is kept at the State Library of Victoria!).

The tournament line up for the Victorian Junior Masters tournament is as follows:
FM Bobby Cheng
IM James Morris
Michael Chan
Isaac Ng
Joshua Devarajh
Ege Girgin
Sasha Parsons
Isaac Zhao
David Cannon

TIMES
Friday October 2, 10-3pm

FORMAT
This will be a KNOCK-OUT tournament following the same format as the AFL Finals series.

Games will be played at 25min+10sec.

A number of top players (including IM Jamiesion and IM West) will be analyzing completed games with players. Spectators welcome.

VENUE
Experimedia (http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/about/visiting/spaces/experimedia/) area
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street,
Melbourne

No cost. No bookings required.

This is a free public event with thanks to the State Library of Victoria and Chess Kids.

mikesguns
25-09-2009, 08:57 PM
Why is there 9 players not 8?

ER
25-09-2009, 10:00 PM
(...)

A number of top players (including IM Jamiesion and IM West) will be analyzing completed games with players. Spectators welcome.
(...)

That's fantastic!!! I mean apart from the top quality of the tournament in regards to talented junior entries, bringing together and establishing active participation of two icons of Australian Chess is something no chess fan should miss!!!

ChessGuru
02-10-2009, 06:05 PM
The Junior Masters event (http://chesskids.com.au/2009/10/a-new-master-title-is-launched/) today was a fantastic event - some of the best juniors in the state in a unique Knock-Out event at the State Library of Victoria.

7 titles were awarded at the end of the day, plus cash prizes ($150 and $100) for winners...

Thanks to the State Library for the venue and doing tours of the Chess Collection, Chess Kids for funding the entire event and to IM Guy West and IM Robert Jamieson for giving up their valuable time to support the kids.

Full report is on the Chess Kids website (http://chesskids.com.au/2009/10/a-new-master-title-is-launched/) including pictures, the Grand Final game and commentary.

Bill Gletsos
02-10-2009, 08:50 PM
I notice you say:

Junior Master titles are superseded by FIDE Master (FM), International Master (IM) or Grandmaster (GM) titles (awarded by FIDE).

The Chess Kid's Junior Master title is also inferior to the FIDE awarded Candidate Master (CM) title.