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drbean
05-07-2009, 12:57 PM

What exactly do you mean by two forfeits?
Do you mean he was paired in rounds 1 & 2 with opponents who won on
forfeit, do you mean he was given a zero point bye in rounds 1 & 2 or
do you mean he was simply added to the tournament starting in round 3
with no recorded results whatsoever in rounds 1 & 2?

What is the significance of this for pairing?

I think the only difference it makes is on pairing number. Late entries should receive new pairing numbers, but no player with a pairing number should have their number reassigned. So, a player with no score, but with a rating below that of the new player, should not give up that pairing number to the new player.

So the pairing table of Kevin Bonham in the same thread,

Place No Opponents Colours Float Score

1-2 7 : 3,2,10 WWB 2
10 : -,4,7 -WW 2

3-8 2 : 6,7,5 WBB 1
3 : 7,9,8 BWB u 1
4 : 8,10,9 WBW 1
5 : 9,6,2 BBW 1
8 : 4,-,3 B-W d 1
9 : 5,3,4 WBB d 1

9-10 1 : -,-,6 --W d 0
6 : 2,5,1 BWB 0

where player 1 did not play in Rounds 1 and 2, could only be a case of 2 forfeits, rather than a late entry.

Is this correct? The Rules assume pairing numbers are only assigned before the first round.

Bill Gletsos
05-07-2009, 06:14 PM

What exactly do you mean by two forfeits?
Do you mean he was paired in rounds 1 & 2 with opponents who won on
forfeit, do you mean he was given a zero point bye in rounds 1 & 2 or
do you mean he was simply added to the tournament starting in round 3
with no recorded results whatsoever in rounds 1 & 2?
What is the significance of this for pairing?I was trying to reproduce exactly what they were referring to in Swiss Master, hence I wanted to know exactly what they were doing.

I think the only difference it makes is on pairing number. Late entries should receive new pairing numbers, but no player with a pairing number should have their number reassigned.Where in the rules does it say that this is the case.

So, a player with no score, but with a rating below that of the new player, should not give up that pairing number to the new player.Of course they can be. The players are just all renumbered into rating order.

So the pairing table of Kevin Bonham in the same thread,

Place No Opponents Colours Float Score

1-2 7 : 3,2,10 WWB 2
10 : -,4,7 -WW 2

3-8 2 : 6,7,5 WBB 1
3 : 7,9,8 BWB u 1
4 : 8,10,9 WBW 1
5 : 9,6,2 BBW 1
8 : 4,-,3 B-W d 1
9 : 5,3,4 WBB d 1

9-10 1 : -,-,6 --W d 0
6 : 2,5,1 BWB 0

where player 1 did not play in Rounds 1 and 2, could only be a case of 2 forfeits, rather than a late entry.Wrong.

Is this correct? The Rules assume pairing numbers are only assigned before the first round.The only one making an assumption is you.

Late entrants need to be seeded into the player list based on their rating.
If this means renumbering the player pairing numbers when players are added then so be it.

drbean
05-07-2009, 09:34 PM
I'm glad I asked. This is not the answer I was expecting.

Late entrants need to be seeded into the player list based on their
rating.

Presumably the score they have at the moment is NOT considered in determining the pairing number, even though the way the Rules talk about determining order might suggest otherwise.

A.2 Order
For pairing purposes only, the players are ranked in order of,
respectively
a. score
b. rating
c. FIDE-title (IGM-WGM-IM-WIM-FM-WFM-no title)
d. alphabetically (unless it has been previously stated that this
criterion has been replaced by another one)

The order made before the first round (when all scores are obviously
zero) is used to determine the pairing numbers: the highest one gets
#1 etc.

But, a. score should NOT be used in the renumbering. Is that correct?

If this means renumbering the player pairing numbers when players are
added then so be it.

Are the players able to make sense of the pairing table with the changes in their pairing numbers and those of the people they played?

Incidentally, the rules talk about making an estimation of players' ratings, if
they are unknown, before the start of the tournament. How do arbiters do this?
If they do not know the players at all, do they ask them about their chess experience? Or do they just give them a 0 rating?

Bill Gletsos
05-07-2009, 10:44 PM
I'm glad I asked. This is not the answer I was expecting.Lucky you did. ;)

Presumably the score they have at the moment is NOT considered in determining the pairing number, even though the way the Rules talk about determining order might suggest otherwise.Naturally the score is not included.
When you add a new player you rank them as if they were there prior to the first round.

But, a. score should NOT be used in the renumbering. Is that correct?Correct.

Are the players able to make sense of the pairing table with the changes in their pairing numbers and those of the people they played?Of course because when the players are renumbered their id numbers in the cross table etc are also renumbered.

Incidentally, the rules talk about making an estimation of players' ratings, if
they are unknown, before the start of the tournament. How do arbiters do this?
If they do not know the players at all, do they ask them about their chess experience? Or do they just give them a 0 rating?The player may have a rating in another country but not a local or FIDE rating.
Or the player may have played already a local event but it has not yet been rated.
Obviously if the arbiter has nothing to go on then he needs to assign some rating. For an unknown adult with nothing to go on this could be 1000. For a junior possibly 900-500 based on the juniors age